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Title: The Nicene Creed
Source:
www.sacredtexts.com
URL Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/nicene.htm
Published: May 30, 2006
Author: website-jbh
Post Date: 2006-05-30 19:43:05 by peteatomic
Keywords: None
Views: 473
Comments: 27
A seemingly minor difference in the wording of this simple text had a profound impact on European history. The Nicene Creed, or Symbol of Faith, was written by the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea in 325 C.E., with additions (the 3rd paragraph and following) by the first Council of Constantinople (381). There is an unresolved controversy over the words 'and the Son' (in Latin filioque). This language was added in 587 by the local council of Toledo, Spain, in an attempt to combat the Arian heresy. Pope Leo III (795-816) forbade the use of the filioque version and had it engraved without 'and the Son' on the walls of St. Peter's Basillica. After a failed attempt to unite by marriage Charlemagne's Frankish holdings with that of the Byzantine Empress, Charlemagne challenged Byzantinium's claim of universal jurisdiction as the successor to Rome by claiming in 792 that among other things, that the Byzantines had omitted the filioque from the original text. The filioque was finally accepted by the Romans in the year 1014, and the revision has been part of Catholic doctrine ever since. The "filioque," the significance of Roman primacy, and geo-political conflict led to the the Great Schism of 1053. To this day, the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not accept the filioque and raise this as one of many reasons that prevent re-unification with the Roman Catholic Church. --jbh
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
A reader contributed the following version of the Nicene Creed from a contemporary Catholic missal. --jbh We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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#1. To: All, Christine (#0)
What Catholics believe.
"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318
Most protestant denominations ignored the Nicene creed due to the controversy, preferring instead the older Apostle's Creed.
This is where many part company with them...especially, their tinkling of water on infants, who just find it annoying.
The modern 'born again' Christians minimize baptism. However, the early Christian Church regarded baptism as extremely important. This understanding also followed into Lutheranism.
"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318
Catholics believe in the Apostles Creed, too.
"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318
I find it interesting that you focused upon the baptism of infants because this is just the begining of sorrows (brain damage) and endoctrinal torture that the Catholic Church jams up every catholic kid's ass. I'd equate the baptism of an infant to having a 7 year old place his hand over his heart and pledge (allegiance) fealty to a rotten stinking government of sick, thieving and perverted murderers. I wasn't too excited about this thread until Lodwick pointed the fickle (middle) finger of faith at the extremely nonsensical act of making an unwitting infant a Catholic, just like the nobles did the serfs. It's all bullshit to make you think you belong to something good, you're a member in good standing, you're "somebody" ! What horseshit. I don't know about all Catholic Schools, but I do know that St. Philip Neri made damn near every kid in the school feel guilty about some fucking thing or another. And so after a kid "CONFESSES" some crap to a degenerate guilt inflicting priest, he/she's commanded to say 6 Hail Mary's and 10 Our Father's ... when the Scripture says "Let not your prayers be vain repetition" ... Nonsense is made of scripture by those calling themselves priests. (And this is the way it's been forever too). Then we wonder why the younger generation isn't interested in studying scripture ... well I think it's because the hypocrits running the so-called churches are repulsive and turn the youth off. The arrogance, ruthlessness and corruption demonstrated by the Roman Church throughout history is without comparison. Baptism of infants flies in the face of free will.
------------------------------------------------------------ Kennedy Assassination ... Bush (I) did it ! 9-11 ... Bush (II) did it ! "Sarah if the American people ever find out what we have done to them, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us". [George H. W. Bush to Sarah McClendon] Good Lord, what a reply you penned! I am truly laughing out loud. Thanks. It was my Southeron Baptist upbringing, and indoctrination that made me reply to this thread. Thanks again for bringing it to the 4um. Well done.
My aunt told me once about a man afraid of water, so instead of joining the Baptists, he became a Methodist because they sprinkle. Out here on the West coast you can find Baptist churches that baptize in the Pacific Ocean. No sprinkling, down under all the way.
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. – James Madison
Out here on the West coast you can find Baptist churches that baptize in the Pacific Ocean. No sprinkling, down under all the way. There's jokes aplenty there - but right now, I can't recall them...but Baptists do go for the full emersion monte. Trust me on that one.
I think there is a lot of symbolism in catholicism. Imagine you are an illiterate serf in the 9th century. The church had to find a way to teach you all about christianity and you can't read. which also means you are poorly educated. Their basic doctrine is no different from Lutherans. But, you also said you don't agree with the Lutherans or other Protestants so, there you are. I know there are imperfections and even serious problems with any church, but like that Texan Dr. J. Vernon McGee liked to say, "If you find a perfect church, don't join it. You'll spoil it." ;p
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. – James Madison
Manmade rituals. Was reading Zechariah 7 and 8 today. The big fuss was whether or not the Israelites should continue the 4 fasting days they had set up when they were exiled to Babylon. God didn't establish them with fast days, but rather feast days. And the fasts they established were pity parties--over the last Jewish ruler being killed, over the seige of Jerusalem starting, over the temple being burned down, and also being carried away into exile. As the Lord said, paraphrasing....you were doing it for yourselves and not for me.
Vernon McGee wasn't a devotee of rituals. He even complained of the standardized routine of how worship services are done on Sundays. I was just reading his opinion on this today.
I don't think there's much chance for the above stated scenario to take place. I don't join a church for that reason. There are 8 churches in the small town I live in. I don't join any of them because I don't want to piss everyone off by outing the preacher as a spy, a liar and a trader in men's souls. Most churches are an extension of the government through 501(c)(3) tax exempt organization status. It's difficult to have an intelligent discussion about topics such as religious belief systems especially when the scriptures that form the foundational basis of those beliefs are ignored in lieu of doctrines and rituals manufactured by greedy men. The leaders of churches, political parties, and governments are psychologically superior to their members, and have every intention to keep it that way. The indoctrination is so complete that even when logic and reason provide evidence to contradict what's being sold, many are still incapable of accepting truth because it makes a lie and a fraud of their life long "beliefs". I remember saying the Nicene Creed in church as a kid and how I felt that it was like an oath, a mantra, an oral contract being forced upon me. I remember thinking, how can someone write something up in advance of even knowing me that I must agree with in total, stating what "I" believe. Lastly, many folks take a lighter approach to their own religious outlook. My approach has never been about the religious benefits to a social compact, but to determine the truth of being and an attempt to understand why things work like they have for millenium.
------------------------------------------------------------ Kennedy Assassination ... Bush (I) did it ! 9-11 ... Bush (II) did it ! "Sarah if the American people ever find out what we have done to them, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us". [George H. W. Bush to Sarah McClendon] No, and he called some Protestant services Vegas floor shows ;) But he was very big on doctrine, and as the Lutherans and Catholics have agreed they share basic docrine, so could all Protestants say the same, but they won't because most don't bother to read basic catholic doctrine. They tend to get caught up in the differences in the way we worship and in the catholic traditions.
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. – James Madison
Truthseekers have often gone it alone. Like forums I don't expect to agree with everyone on everything. I keep my expectations a bit low, and I'm still surprised. Still, we are encouraged to worship together, so I try. My grandmother once likened church to a hospital, it's just that sometimes the doctors are patients too. So disheartening.
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. – James Madison
Only very rarely did I hear the Nicene receited in any protestant church until fairly recently. As a child first encounter with it was at Christmas Eve services at the Episcopalian Church. The Apostles Creed is older (and considerably shorter) than the Nicene and, of course, is accepted by the Roman Catholic church.
I say it when I go to Mass and don't feel there's a problem with it. What I have a problem with is Born Again Christians that use the failsafe of "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" as a get out of jail free card to continue committing sins. These Hippocrates are much worse and do more harm to organized religion than any other group.
hey marine! .. And some even have bumper stickers on their cars saying just that..
Howdy Zip. Been a long time.
How have you been??... good to see you ..
Catholics use the Apostles' Creed. The Nicene Creed is in the liturgy of the Mass, but elsewhere the Creed that Catholics recite (for example, in saying the Rosary) is the Apostles' Creed.
Yeah, we say it at Mass, too. There are very nice people, and some not so nice people who are 'born agains'. There are some major problems with 'born again' logic in regards to Christianity. For instance, there isn't a clear understanding of what 'born again' actually means. So as you point out, a person who is 'born again' one minute can 'backslide' to be not 'born again' another minute. It's understood that if you drink, smoke, dance, etc. that you 'backslide' into a non-'born again' state. The rules of 'born again' status are also set out differently by different pastors. It is seemingly up to the whim of the pastor to decide what is acceptable behavior for a Christian. The 'born again' idea is a misrepresentation of scripture. All Christians who accept Jesus as the Messiah are implicitly 'born again' as followers of Christ. So, it's rather absurd to hold a position of supremacy as 'the only real Christians' as many born-agains in the US attempt to do-- when in reality they are reading scripture out of context and understanding. However, it is par for the course for the born-again crowd. Also, and very interestingly, the current modern for of fundamental pentecostalism is very close to the ancient Christian movement called Montanism. The Montanists followed a character named Montanus, who was operating a church in Phrygia. The Montanists were renowned throughout Christian Roman Empire as very emotional 'speaking in tongues', ecstasies, and End Day prophesizing. Montanism was popular in some parts for its drama, however-- much of the rest of the early church denounced it.
"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318
Some of the older, liturgical Protestant churches are coming around to it, believe. The Lutheran, Catholic, and Anglican churches have been talking reunifying from time to time. I guess it is a very real possibility. The use of the Creeds in some Protestant churches may be the start of 'warming up' to the transition back to the Catholic church. I don't know.
"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318
Well not really.. either you are 'in' or youre 'out'.. either 'saved' or 'unsaved'..
Sure. that is true, too. My wife grew up in the 'born again' atmosphere, and the church she went to, a person could 'backslide' so severely as he/she would need to have something akin to an intervention, if they wanted to remain in the 'saved' position.
"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318
Which denomination?? Sounds like a 'holiness' church.. many think 'holiness' means pentacostal but not necessarily.. seems with those churches you never knew is you were 'in' or 'out'.. I was raised in a holiness church .. I know exactly what you're talking about.. not exactly biblical.
It was a church associated with assembly of god
"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318
#2. To: peteatomic (#0)
#3. To: peteatomic (#0)
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
#4. To: lodwick (#3)
#5. To: Ada (#2)
Most protestant denominations ignored the Nicene creed due to the controversy, preferring instead the older Apostle's Creed.
#6. To: lodwick (#3)
especially, their tinkling of water on infants,
#7. To: noone222 (#6)
I find it interesting that you focused upon the baptism of infants because this is just the begining of sorrows (brain damage) and endoctrinal torture that the Catholic Church jams up every catholic kid's ass.
#8. To: lodwick (#3)
#9. To: robin (#8)
My aunt told me once about a man afraid of water, so instead of joining the Baptists, he became a Methodist because they sprinkle.
#10. To: noone222 (#6)
So they use stain glass windows and paintings and statues and the stations of the cross to try and bridge that gulf. These are teaching aids. Lighting candles is symbolic.
#11. To: noone222 (#6)
#12. To: robin (#10)
#13. To: robin (#10)
"If you find a perfect church, don't join it. You'll spoil it." ;p
#14. To: rowdee (#12)
#15. To: noone222 (#13)
Lastly, many folks take a lighter approach to their own religious outlook. My approach has never been about the religious benefits to a social compact, but to determine the truth of being and an attempt to understand why things work like they have for millenium.
#16. To: peteatomic (#5)
Catholics believe in the Apostles Creed, too.
#17. To: peteatomic (#1)
What Catholics believe.
"The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all." - John F. Kennedy
#18. To: 82Marine89 (#17)
I say it when I go to Mass and don't feel there's a problem with it. What I have a problem with is Born Again Christians that use the failsafe of "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" as a get out of jail free card to continue committing sins. These Hippocrates are much worse and do more harm to organized religion than any other group.
#19. To: Zipporah (#18)
"The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all." - John F. Kennedy
#20. To: 82Marine89 (#19)
#21. To: Ada (#2)
#22. To: 82Marine89 (#17)
I say it when I go to Mass and don't feel there's a problem with it. What I have a problem with is Born Again Christians that use the failsafe of "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" as a get out of jail free card to continue committing sins. These Hippocrates are much worse and do more harm to organized religion than any other group.
#23. To: Ada (#16)
#24. To: peteatomic (#22)
So as you point out, a person who is 'born again' one minute can 'backslide' to be not 'born again' another minute. It's understood that if you drink, smoke, dance, etc. that you 'backslide' into a non-'born again' state. The rules of 'born again' status are also set out differently by different pastors. It is seemingly up to the whim of the pastor to decide what is acceptable behavior for a Christian.
#25. To: Zipporah (#24)
#26. To: peteatomic (#25)
Sure. that is true, too. My wife grew up in the 'born again' atmosphere, and the church she went to, a person could 'backslide' so severely as he/she would need to have something akin to an intervention, if they wanted to remain in the 'saved' position.
#27. To: Zipporah (#26)
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