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Title: Ranchers Add Ladders to Border Fences
Source:
Tampa Bay Online/AP
URL Source: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie ... _LADDERS?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US
Published: Jun 17, 2006
Author: LYNN BREZOSKY
Post Date: 2006-06-17 10:18:45 by Dakmar
Keywords: None
Views: 556
Comments: 55
FALFURRIAS, Texas (AP) -- A few Texas ranchers tired of costly repairs to cattle fences damaged by illegal immigrants have installed an easier route over the U.S.-Mexican border - ladders. "It's an attempt to get them to use the ladders instead of tearing the fences," said Scott Pattinson, who owns one of a group of ranches known as La Copa. La Copa is just south of a U.S. Border Patrol highway checkpoint that went up 75 miles from the border several years ago, sending migrants through the brambly scrub of nearby ranches instead. Some immigrants walk for hours or days to skirt the checkpoints in temperatures hovering around 100 degrees. Their feet have worn visible paths through a forest of cactus and mesquite otherwise thick enough to conceal them from Border Patrol helicopters overhead and agents only a few hundred yards away. The paths lead from one ripped-down section of fencing to another. Texas ranches can be so large it could be days before owners notice the hole in the fence, long after the livestock possibly escapes. Paul Johnson protects his 2,700-acre exotic game ranch of zebras, scimitar-horned oryx and wildebeests with about 10 miles of high wire fence, and joined his neighbors in placing ladders along the way. But apparently some immigrants think the ladders are too good to be true. "They ignore it a lot," Johnson said. "They're afraid that they're monitored by the Border Patrol." Johnson plans to take the ladders down, worried about the message he's sending. "I think what it does is give a signal that we are wanting them to cross there, don't mind the crossing, and that kind of magnifies the problem," he said. Rancher Michael Vickers never liked the ladder idea and instead has ringed his fence with 220 volts of electricity. "I've had a dose of it myself, it's not fun," he said. "That's just my attitude, why make it easier for them to trespass?" © 2006 The Associated Press.
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#1. To: Dakmar (#0)
Great. Why don't you jackasses stand outside banks handing out guns to financially-strapped robbers?
I'd shoot them and claim I thought they were cattle rustlers.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
This is a picture of a wider problem.
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. – James Madison
how pathetic is this!!!! it's totally giving in!!!
Electricity is the way to go. Up the voltage.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
I suspect it won't be long before they drag his ass off to prison and give his ranch to some dumbass who got injured.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
Maybe so, but you've got to make a stand somewhere. Otherwise, they're just gonna run you off your land in the long run anyway. I say, up the voltage to lethal and fry 'em. They wouldn't be able to press charges, so it would put the US govt in the position of pressing charges on their behalf. Lethal is the way to go.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
Nothing they do deserves the death penalty. Period. You are foolish for even going there, but I'm glad you do because it is very revealing about much the problem with the mindset vilifying Mexicans in such a distorted and out of context manner.
Nonsense. They are foreign invaders - both invading into THIS country and destroying people's private property and endangering their welfare. I have no problem with killing an invader. That's why we have an army. I would say the same thing if it were happening on the Canadian side of the border. The fact that they are Mexican is irrelevant to me.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
I think you need to go back and re-read this article about the Dutch posted earlier. This is a very close analogy except our situation is even more egregious as these invaders are illegal, while the Dutch stupidly let theirs just walk in. This paragraph, however, sums up the problem in BOTH cases.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
These people are ranchers, Mike. Destroying their fences destroys their livelihood. Would you prefer they starve to death?
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
There is a protocol that should never be violated in regards to the use of deadly force. If someone is directly threatening you with harm or home entry where you are unarguably in fear of your life that is one thing. But people passing through private property who are demonstrably by virtue of having done this for quite some time can be detained and prosecuted for trespassing, but not murdered out of hand. I traded posts with one character who thinks Waffen SS-like death teams should fan out and murder Mexicans like the Nazis did to the Jewish people in a new "Crystalnacht," (the night of the shattered glass). But I do not support such fascistic tactics or utter disregard for human life. I say anyone murdering another in cold blood are subject to be stopped if it takes their deaths to stop their murderous intent. That is part of the protocol of the use of deadly force too, that those committing murder risk death themselves if they do not put down their weapons and cease and desist in acts of cold blooded murder. Most Mexicans are decent, hard working people and are not inhuman vermin. Killing on the border or in country has an awful fuzzy line and if you start doing one the other would quickly ensue. Then the rest of our reputation and any good feeling for us in the international community would be wiped away along with that Bush has destroyed. You are very wrong in your position and it demonstrates much the flaws in he scapegoating of Mexicans rather then going after the real criminals; those high level business and political leaders who enticed them in in the first place to pit them against the American worker to destroy his or her income and standard of living.
Ping to my last post.
Actually fortifying the fences with lethal electricity would end up saving lives. You'd have a few people initially who'd ignore the postings and try to get over anyway, but not many. Once people realized it was lethal, they'd stop trying to get across. They keep trying (and dying in the deserts or in trucks) because they have HOPE of getting into the US against the odds. Remove the hope and more of them will actually survive. And do what they SHOULD DO. Which is to kill their ruling class and take over. That's what needs to happen down there. They need a Hugh Chavez. I say kill the ruling class as that's about the only way you're going to get change in Mexico with their thoroughly corrupt govt. Incidentally, I understand that if you try to sneak into Mexico...they shoot you.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
I don't give a damn WHAT the Mexicans are. They are an invading force occupying our country and who will eventually be here in large enough numbers that they can reclaim large parts of it for their native country, which is what they swear allegiance to. They are MEXICANS, not would be Americans. Most of them don't want to be Americans, they just want to make a buck. I understand that, but I don't care. NAFTA should be repealed - that would help. The (white) Mexican ruling class, of which Vicente Fox is representative, should be ELIMINATED. They need to take care of their own problems DOWN THERE. Now, there literally is no way I can prove that I'm not a racist, as Mexico just happens to be there on the border and is the problem - not Norway. If it were Norway -I'd say the EXACT SAME THING. I have no problem with legal immigration from damn near any country as long as the individuals want to be Americans and live by our rules. BUT THIS INVASION MUST STOP. You don't seem to understand that the landholders on the border do indeed live in fear of their lives, and they also live in fear of bankruptcy and ruin because of the illegals depradations against their property and livestock. THIS MUST STOP.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
Bullshit. You are just recognizing the scope of the problem involved in stating a "kill them all" pie fight which this would indeed do. You are not dealing with dumb animals, these are human beings and deserve the same consideration for their lives as any other human being. If such a fence went up, I would gladly be one of the many to head immediately down there with tools to destroy it. Such a fence would start something alright, but not what you think it would.
The problem is that they are not being prosecuted. I need my car to get to work. If some idiot decided to slash my tires some night, I'll call the police. After twenty nights of it happening with nothing being done I would be justified in killing them, as it's either them or me.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
Bad analogy, and if you did murder someone who did not put you in immediate jeopardy of your life, you are liable for prosecution and to be quite successfully sued in civil court. Human life is worth more then property. Period.
Exactly. In the end, people have a right to defend themselves and their property. It's just a basic human right - far more basic than the right of foreigners to illegaly trespass into our country and onto their property.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
And then what, you'll come and bust down my doors because I keep them locked, not sharing the food in my fridge with any and all who pass by?
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
They used to hang horse thieves. Speaking of horses, there are horse corrals with electric fences. It doesn't kill 'em, and the juice is off most of the time because horses catch on quick. There are options inbetween.
Without property and property rights, human life becomes pretty meaningless. If my constant depradations across your border leave you in constant fear, and your property constantly damaged, which you have to repair, or replay, and which threaten your very livelihood, then why the hell should I have any respect for YOUR rights? these illegals have NO RESPECT for the rights of the people they trespass upon. You're creating a totally one way street here,and that is inherently UNFAIR.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
That's the thing. I'm sure Mexicans are a hell of a lot smarter than horses.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
There laws on the books in many states allowing for the death penalty for horse thieves, going back to the days when horses were the primary means of transportation. People have the right to earn a living is the principal at work here, and if the government won't protect that right then individuals should be free to take the task upon themselves. I'm not condoning wanton murder, but I believe if the unlawful actions of others are denying one a means of survival then whatever force is necessary to make them desist is justified.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
See my previous post...
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
They are passing through private property and subject to prosecution for criminal trespass. If they stop and invade a man's home and castle that is a different thing altogether. There is much case law that recognizes immediate jeopardy in those situations. Immediate jeopardy does not exist in a sneak attack on your automobile tires, or in crossing the border to head for a possible job. You can detain, but not murder the violator of those laws out of hand, and this is very much in accordance with accepted protocols for use of deadly force, something I received training in while on active duty.
It's not murder. If the property is posted in Spanish and English, then there is no excuse for disregarding a clear warning. If people want to proceed to violate the laws of a country, and the rights of an individual landowner, then they would be doing so at an accepted risk to themselves.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
A lethal electric fence and the murder of unarmed people trespassing property to move through it is a slippery slope that should never be walked out on. It starts a chain of events starting with the authorities removing the fence and going - rightfully so - after you for creating a deadly hazard to human life. If it was allowed by the authorities, people who hate Mexicans for whatever reason would feel empowered to lynch them with rope of gun, and those of us who do not like fascistic murder would then be forced to defend the principle of the sanctity of human life to stop them anyway we could if the authorities did not move to stop the bloodshed. You are very wrong in your approach to the problem of illegal immigration in looking for quick and easy answers like murdering unarmed people. You should heed the lessons the German and Italian Fascists learned when they did much the same thing for similar rationalizations.
So you recognise the right of illegal trespassers to earn a living, but not for law-abiding citizens?
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
Creating a deadly hazard like that would be tantamount to murder emanating from a lack of respect for human life. Signs are no answer. They can't be seen in the dark, and illiterate people and small children who can't read deserve to have their lives respected too.
I was referring to Mike's remark about some idiot wanting death squads. I don't even think electric fences have enough juice to kill someone.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
I respect human life, and that is the point being argued. I have lost my job in the woodlands of the Northwest and my last employer is hurting financially so they dumped me because of my high wage and has several illegal Mexicans in their employment. I do not support the use of illegal entry of foreign nationals to make richer people richer and more powerful at my expense. But I do not believe in scapegoating the other guy exploiting the bad situation created by the greedy people on top economically and politically. I am going after Portland Saturday Market legally. I would like a solution to this problem too. But I have a sense of perspective that human life and dignity are not to be thrown out the window in this issue. I see those who started this problem as hoping the fight stays between those fighting for the job and wants scapegoating of Mexicans to take the heat off of them. Many Mexicans I worked with in thew woods and at Portland Saturday Market are still my friends and acquaintances. That doesn't change as I respect human life. But if they lose these jobs because of an increasing crackdown regarding their being hired and employed, that's how it goes. Many of them would have much my view and would not blame those who got their jobs or job opportunity back and take it to a blood thirty personal level as you are doing here. I say the answer is to politically and economically bloody those who started the problem despite their formidable power, as together we have move then they do if this is done in a cohesive and united fashion. Those being exploited and meant by the rich and powerful to be a scapegoat as well as a leverage to steal from you and me should never be murdered for the crimes of others.
Electric fences can indeed be given the amperage to kill. That is very easy to do.
If believing that a person has a right to defend their livelihood against the illegal actions of others makes me "bloodthirsty" in your eyes then so be it, I know otherwise. I agree that the politicians agree are the main problem, but that doesn't excuse one group victimizing another, no matter which direction we're talking. Destroying fences is economically devastating the ranchers, who stand to lose their livestock. What if those livestock start wandering the highways and cause several people to die in car accidents, is it still ok to destroy fences?
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
I'll take your word on that, I'm a city boy through and through.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
None of us are stupid. We know what it is. By the way, it's with a "K," not a "C."
Freeper motto: "I read, but do not understand; I write, but make no sense."
I think this article, is straight from my favorite department...
#2. To: who knows what evil (#1)
#3. To: Dakmar, *The Border* (#0)
"It's an attempt to get them to use the ladders instead of tearing the fences," said Scott Pattinson, who owns one of a group of ranches known as La Copa.
#4. To: Dakmar (#0)
"It's an attempt to get them to use the ladders instead of tearing the fences," said Scott Pattinson, who owns one of a group of ranches known as La Copa.
#5. To: Dakmar (#0)
#6. To: mehitable (#5)
#7. To: Dakmar (#6)
#8. To: mehitable (#7)
#9. To: Ferret Mike (#8)
#10. To: Ferret Mike (#8)
Suddenly the 16 million Dutch of this small, proper, prosperous country woke up to a nightmare long stirring in its unconscious. They had, without really thinking, let in 1.6 million foreigners, mostly Muslims, since the '60s; they had asked nothing of them -- no loyalty, no commitment, no cultural understanding. Many were from the most different cultures possible and had no intention whatsoever of becoming "Dutch."
#11. To: Ferret Mike (#8)
#12. To: mehitable (#9)
#13. To: Dakmar (#11)
#14. To: Dakmar (#11)
#15. To: Ferret Mike (#12)
#16. To: mehitable (#14)
"Actually fortifying the fences with lethal electricity would end up saving lives."
#17. To: Ferret Mike (#12)
But people passing through private property who are demonstrably by virtue of having done this for quite some time can be detained and prosecuted for trespassing, but not murdered out of hand.
#18. To: Dakmar (#17)
#19. To: Dakmar (#17)
#20. To: Ferret Mike (#16)
If such a fence went up, I would gladly be one of the many to head immediately down there with tools to destroy it. Such a fence would start something alright, but not what you think it would.
#21. To: Dakmar, Ferret Mike (#17)
#22. To: Ferret Mike (#18)
#23. To: robin (#21)
#24. To: Ferret Mike (#18)
Bad analogy, and if you did murder someone who did not put you in immediate jeopardy of your life, you are liable for prosecution and to be quite successfully sued in civil court.
#25. To: robin (#21)
They used to hang horse thieves.
#26. To: Dakmar (#20)
#27. To: Dakmar (#24)
#28. To: mehitable (#22)
"You're creating a totally one way street here,and that is inherently UNFAIR."
#29. To: Ferret Mike (#28)
#30. To: mehitable (#27)
"It's not murder."
#31. To: mehitable (#27)
It's not murder. If the property is posted in Spanish and English,
#32. To: Dakmar (#29)
#33. To: Dakmar (#31)
#34. To: Ferret Mike (#32)
#35. To: Ferret Mike (#33)
Electric fences can indeed be given the amperage to kill. That is very easy to do.
#36. To: Ferret Mike (#12)
"Crystalnacht," (the night of the shattered glass).
#37. To: Dakmar, *You Gotta Be Shitting Me* (#0)
 | What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?. |
#38. To: Dakmar (#34)
I am speaking of a continuum of force, and killing someone for the destruction others do to fences is out of line and precipitates others acts of violence equally or worse in the disregard to human life as that you evocate.
#39. To: YertleTurtle (#36)
I Googled the spelling and that's what the search function gave me as I speak French and English, not German. Take it up with Google, not me.
"By the way, it's with a "K," not a "C.""
#40. To: YertleTurtle (#36)
Listen bub, I am not going to convince you or other ideologues my point of view anymore then you are going to convince me your anti-Semitic and often quite racist viewpoints are worth a damn. So I make sure the lurkers - all of them - know to what I refer to. It is an accepted practice to clarify language written in another tongue and that's what I did. Can it, I'm not impressed, and you speak out your forth point of contact* with this comment. (*Forth point of contact refers to body parts making contact with the Earth in a PLF - Parachute landing fall - Military paratrooper jargon).
"None of us are stupid. We know what it is."
#41. To: Ferret Mike (#18)
Human life depends on property, which is why we see so many Mexicans risking their lives to come here.
Human life is worth more then property. Period.
#42. To: Ferret Mike (#38)
Aww, cry me a river Ferret, you're just as bad as the bots who used to imply my "fuck the police" outbursts were somehow related to sodomy.
I am speaking of a continuum of force, and killing someone for the destruction others do to fences is out of line and precipitates others acts of violence equally or worse in the disregard to human life as that you evocate.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
#43. To: DuQuoigne (#41)
touche! Failure to understand that basic right is the root of all political problems, which are in turn the root of most socio-economic problems. Who gets to be boss becomes a bitch when the field is opened up to everyone regardless of actual claims to title, established law, or any of that other stuff wealthy communists teach their minions to screech before their tv cameras. Welcome to 4um.
Human life depends on property, which is why we see so many Mexicans risking their lives to come here.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
#44. To: DuQuoigne (#41)
And the most core real estate is the planet Earth in general, isn't it? We are all human beings on this mud ball together, and unless we all learn to respect human life more then what we own and can't take with us when we die, we are in serious trouble.
"Human life depends on property, which is why we see so many Mexicans risking their lives to come here."
#45. To: Dakmar (#43)
The clear claim to a land title is in jeopardy with the recent ruling concerning eminent domain, and how commercial use trumps anything else regarding who owns the land. Seems to me that is is an example of a far larger problem then border runners passing through ranch land without leave to do so. Above and beyond that example how case law puts land ownership in the tenuous category, we have problems with many land owners not caring about how that they do affects the overall values and rights of the community at large. We not only need to worry about real issues concerning what others do that hurt property owner's rights, but how property owners can hurt the rights of others with what they do with the land. It is not an easy issue to reduce to slogans and buzz words - which is entirely my point here.
"Failure to understand that basic right is the root of all political problems, which are in turn the root of most socio-economic problems. Who gets to be boss becomes a bitch when the field is opened up to everyone regardless of actual claims to title, established law, or any of that other stuff wealthy communists teach their minions to screech before their TV cameras."
#46. To: Dakmar (#42)
Wow, a penetrating topic, fucking the police. Sounds like that was an interesting battle, glad I missed it. ;-D
"Aww, cry me a river Ferret, you're just as bad as the bots who used to imply my "fuck the police" outbursts were somehow related to sodomy.
#47. To: Ferret Mike (#45)
That's fine, but you are the one arguing the merits of humanitarianism versus the specific details of this story.
It is not an easy issue to reduce to slogans and buzz words - which is entirely my point here.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
#48. To: Dakmar (#47)
I wasn't the one who put property way above concern for human life. I wasn't the one that ignored the consequences of such actions. I would rather see a higher more impenetrable fence and better protection through U.S. Border Patrol enforcement then see human life so callously cheapened that people are shot or electrocuted like they were vermin. That is quite germane to the topic in the thread. I fail to see what your gripe with a high value in regards to human life here is.
#49. To: Ferret Mike (#48)
Sure you did, when you said using the force necessary to prevent further destruction of the property described in this article was tantamount to murder.
I wasn't the one who put property way above concern for human life. I wasn't the one that ignored the consequences of such actions.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
#50. To: Dakmar (#49)
I take issue with the manner of defense and how it violates the continuum of use of deadly force, not with the issue of protection of private property values. That is my point.
"Sure you did, when you said using the force necessary to prevent further destruction of the property described in this article was tantamount to murder."
#51. To: Ferret Mike (#50)
I think ranch owners feel under siege, gotta be different rules for that, right?
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
#52. To: Ferret Mike (#50)
There's usually creeps making money versus everyone else, that's how things are presented in movies anyway. I real life everyone is corrupt and therefor has no leg to stand on to accuse others. Beat that into them, man...go!
I take issue with the manner of defense and how it violates the continuum of use of deadly force, not with the issue of protection of private property values.
Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!
#53. To: Ferret Mike (#44)
The irony of your reasoning is that the migrants, in risking their lives to cross the border, are demonstrating that they value life less than material things; yet, rather than fault them, you give them license to harm the ranchers. I don't consider shared humanity to be an excuse to commit crime, nor do I view effective deterrence to those crimes as being inhumane.
And the most core real estate is the planet Earth in general, isn't it? We are all human beings on this mud ball together, and unless we all learn to respect human life more then what we own and can't take with us when we die, we are in serious trouble.
#54. To: mehitable (#27)
Seeding the border with land mines would drastically reduce the flow of illegal alien invaders. Signs posted in English and Spanish would warn the invaders that crossing the border could result in death or serious injurry.
It's not murder. If the property is posted in Spanish and English, then there is no excuse for disregarding a clear warning. If people want to proceed to violate the laws of a country, and the rights of an individual landowner, then they would be doing so at an accepted risk to themselves.
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.
#55. To: Zoroaster (#54)
Too unpredictable. That might hurt the ranchers and their employees or their livestock. I think the electrified fence would be sufficient, once posted in Spanish and English.
Seeding the border with land mines would drastically reduce the flow of illegal alien invaders.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
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