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Title: Is Teacher-Student Sex OK If The Student Is 18?
Source:
www.foxnews.com
URL Source: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200004,00.html
Published: Jun 18, 2006
Author: By Susan Estrich
Post Date: 2006-06-19 10:35:36 by Mind_Virus
Keywords: None
Views: 191
Comments: 13
Is Teacher-Student Sex OK If The Student Is 18? Sunday, June 18, 2006 By Susan Estrich LOS ANGELES — Should it be a crime for a public school teacher to have sex with one of her students? Is that a hard question? For me it isn't. The answer is yes. It's a particularly easy question where the state, in this case Texas, has passed a simple and straightforward law that makes it a crime, without regard to the age or gender of the student. But don't tell that to some of my friends on the panel last night of Fox's "On the Record," where I was all alone with host Greta van Susteren in being willing to enforce the law against a 25- year old former beauty contest participant who had sex with one of her students. What got into my fellow panelists? Is it about age? Or about gender? Here are the facts. You decide. Amy McElhenney, age 25, was arrested on May 25 for allegedly having sex with one of her male students at Hebron High School in Carrollton, Texas. Under a Texas law passed three years ago, teachers who have sex with their students may be convicted of a felony and sent to prison for up to 20 years. The boy in question was 18. If he had not been a student, he would have been considered a consenting adult. But he was a student. When the Texas law was originally drafted, it was limited to students 17 years of age and under. But when the bill came to the floor of the house, it was amended, and the age provision was dropped. As Representative Warren Chisum, who proposed the amendment dropping the age limit explained, "If they're a student, I just think they're off bounds regardless of their age. I felt like if we didn't do that, we just virtually made it open season on students that are 18-years-old." Most teachers don't need a criminal law to tell us that it's wrong to have sex with our students no matter how old they are (mine are in their 20's and 30's, and it's still wrong). Teachers have power over students, which undercuts the notion that consent can be given freely; we control their lives, which means it's not fair to the individual student, or to the other students in the class; it's an abuse of the teacher's power, and compromises both the real and perceived fairness of that student's grades and of any overall curve in the class. True love can wait until the end of the term. Obviously, the younger the student, the worse the injury, but abuse of power is about power, not age. Besides, for purposes of their relationships with teachers, high school seniors, even if they are 18, are still kids, as the legislature clearly concluded, and prosecutors are not free to second guess them. But don't tell that to my fellow panelists. Because there I was, all by myself, in arguing that McElhenney should be subject to felony charges. Would it have been different if it were a male teacher and an 18-year-old girl? If the teacher were less attractive? There is no question that there is a double standard in sex abuse cases, and nowhere is it more apparent than in what seems to be the growing number of teacher sex cases. We all react with shock at the very idea of a male teacher "taking advantage" of young women in his class; I can't imagine a panel having trouble with criminal charges in such a case, no matter how good looking the man, indeed, especially if he were good looking. But give me a good-looking woman teacher, and the locker room jokes begin. "Wish I'd had a teacher like that in school," men say. "And you're complaining?" they ask. The locker room humor is dangerous on at least three counts. First, it demeans male sexuality as unworthy of protection, without regard to age. If a boy should consider himself lucky to be the object of a teacher's attentions, then what does that say about the boy who complains? The widespread view that it is only women or girls who have legitimate claim on the state to protect their sexuality is what has left both male-on-male and female-on-male claims of sex abuse in a sort of never-neverland, where there are barely no statistics, few recorded cases, and yet we all know that there are far more instances of abuse than officials recount. Second, it ignores the power relationship between the woman and her student, which makes this different from the usual male-female relationship, and puts the boy on a different footing. The truth is that we are used to thinking of men as not needing protection in a male-female relationship, assuming that they're 18 or older. But power trumps age, and teachers have power. Locker room humor that obscures that reality leaves boys, by virtue of the accident of their birth date, in a precarious position. Third, it provides the basis for ignoring the judgments of the legislature on criminal law. The criminal law is the will of the majority. There is no constitutional right of teachers to have sex with their students or students to have sex with their teachers. Even if there is a constitutional right to adultery or homosexuality, there is no constitutional right to have sex with your superiors while you're studying under them. And short of such a right, it is up to the legislature to set society's standards for acceptable conduct. Here, the legislature spoke, and enacted a law. The fact that my fellow panelists don't happen to "like" it is no reason for it not to be enforced. There are any number of criminal laws that I don't like. But that's a reason to argue to the legislature to change them, not to tell a prosecutor he's wrong about enforcing them.
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#1. To: Mind_Virus (#0)
It's certainly legal, whether or not it is OK or not depends on if they are married to each other when they have the sex.
God is always good! it is unethical because one has power over the other, in terms of grades. unethical is altogether different from immoral, though there are no contemporary religious belief systems that explain the difference.s rather like trying to cook a complex dish using a picture rather than a recipe.
'We shall no longer hang on to the tails of public opinion, or to a non-existent authority, on matters utterly unknown and strange. We shall gradually become experts ourselves in the mastery of the knowledge of the future.' ~ Wilhelm Reich
So what you're saying is that I've been making macaroni and cheese the wrong way all these years?
Is Teacher-Student Sex OK If The Student Is 18?
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#2. To: Mind_Virus (#0)
#3. To: gengis gandhi (#2)
 | What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?. |
#4. To: Mind_Virus (#0)
Susan Estrich seems to be denying the existence of prosecutorial discretion, one of whose chief uses has been the refusal to enforce stupid laws (like the criminal laws against adultery in many states.) Strange, I thought she had been a prosecutor.
#5. To: Mind_Virus (#0)
Find me an 18 y/o babydoll and we can play "Teacher-Student". ROTFLOL!
Is Teacher-Student Sex OK If The Student Is 18?
"To be nobody-but-yourself - in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else - means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can ever fight; and never stop fighting." E.E. Cummings
#6. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#3)
if it comes in a box, its not a recipe.
'We shall no longer hang on to the tails of public opinion, or to a non-existent authority, on matters utterly unknown and strange. We shall gradually become experts ourselves in the mastery of the knowledge of the future.' ~ Wilhelm Reich
#7. To: gengis gandhi (#2)
It's also unethical as it's unfair to the other students. We see this in employee/boss situations (I have certainly). That the boss is having an affair with an employee, frequently an incompetent one (as they don't have to be competent - just look good). This employee gets the raises, the bonuses, the nice office, the promotion, the trips, the perks - just because he or she is having an affair with the boss. This is demoralizing to the other employees and grossly unfair to the others. The same dynamics applies to students - perhaps more so, as they are younger and more vulnerable to seduction themselves.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#8. To: Mind_Virus (#0)
So because it compromises the teacher/student relationship, the author thinks 20 years in prison is an appropriate response? I can agree it's immoral regardless of the student age, but the punishment here is very far in excess of the act. 18 year olds are adult enough to be drafted into military service, but not old enough to drink or make their sexual decisions? Myself, I don't think adulthood really begins until about 25-30 (my personal view), but some consistancy in the law needs to be instituted.
Teachers have power over students, which undercuts the notion that consent can be given freely; we control their lives, which means it's not fair to the individual student, or to the other students in the class; it's an abuse of the teacher's power, and compromises both the real and perceived fairness of that student's grades and of any overall curve in the class.
#9. To: Neil McIver (#8)
I got a 41 year old that hasn't made the grade yet.
Myself, I don't think adulthood really begins until about 25-30
#10. To: Mind_Virus, lodwick, jethro tull (#0)
True love can wait until the end of the term. Obviously, the younger the student, the worse the injury, but abuse of power is about power, not age. Besides, for purposes of their relationships with teachers, high school seniors, even if they are 18, are still kids, as the legislature clearly concluded, and prosecutors are not free to second guess them. This is a GREAT argument. WHICH IS WHY ALL GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO FIRE THE TEACHER INVOLVED IMMEDIATELY [UPON PROOF NOT ALLEGATION] and leave the teacher open to civil suit....BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE A CRIME IMO if the student is 18. More government fascists sticking their noses where it doesn't belong, in this case, jacking with personal FREEDOM. Rapists get lighter sentences than this. Another horseshit Texas good old boy fascist lawyer "representative." These assholes want to worry about "abuse of power" they can look in the fucking mirror.
Teachers have power over students, which undercuts the notion that consent can be given freely; we control their lives, which means it's not fair to the individual student, or to the other students in the class; it's an abuse of the teacher's power, and compromises both the real and perceived fairness of that student's grades and of any overall curve in the class.
"Freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in -- and the West in general -- into an unbearable hell and a choking life."
--Osama bin Laden
"Prohibition...goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."
--- Abraham Lincoln December, 1840
#11. To: IndieTX (#10)
OK, all parties are over 18? The key for me would be discretion. If it was followed, and word leaked out despite their best attempt, no harm, no foul.
#12. To: IndieTX (#10)
It's a requirement here in Texas that you must be a moron to hold any office, or make any "laws." When Harry, "the horse," Johnson fails to graduate by age 21, and some skank teacher wants to get laid; who the freak cares? imo
Thanks for the ping.
#13. To: Jethro Tull (#11)
I'll go along with that even...the crime thing is outrageous. What's the difference between a "lawmaker" [LAWYER] and a bucket of shit? The bucket.
he key for me would be discretion. If it was followed, and word leaked out despite their best attempt, no harm, no foul.
"Freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in -- and the West in general -- into an unbearable hell and a choking life."
--Osama bin Laden
"Prohibition...goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."
--- Abraham Lincoln December, 1840
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