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Title: Can anyone show me a controlled demolition company that uses Thermate?
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Published: Jul 1, 2006
Author: Self
Post Date: 2006-07-01 17:55:03 by Critter
Keywords: None
Views: 2979
Comments: 98
I find only that RDX is used in controlled demolitions. I can't find any link between thermite, or thermate and controlled demolition except on pages discussing 9/11. I find this troublesome for the latest theories.
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#23. To: Kamala, *9-11* (#18)
great info and links!
Mark http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a1201eutectic December 2001: Scientific Journal Describes 'Eutectic Mixture' in WTC Steel A sample of WTC steel eroded and corroded due to eutectic formations. [Source: FEMA] The Journal of the Minerals, Metals and Materials Society (JOM) reports that the examination of a beam from the remains of WTC Building 7—which collapsed late in the afternoon of 9/11 (see (5:20 p.m.))—has revealed "unexpected erosion" of the steel. The article states: "The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached around 1,000�C, forming the eutectic liquid by a process similar to making a 'blacksmith's weld' in a hand forge." [Barnett, Biederman, and Sisson, 12/2001] The New York Times will call this "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." [New York Times, 2/2/2002] FEMA's World Trade Center Building Performance Study, released in May 2002 (see May 1, 2002), will add that the same "unusual erosion patterns" have been observed in a sample of the remaining structural steel from one of the twin towers. It will state, "This sulfur-rich liquid penetrated preferentially down grain boundaries of the steel, severely weakening the beam and making it susceptible to erosion." FEMA is unable to explain this phenomenon, saying, "The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion ... are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. ... It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure." [Federal Emergency Management Agency, 5/1/2002, pp. C-1 - C-13] Despite FEMA's call for further research, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) will make no mention of the eutectic formations in its final report into the WTC collapses, released in late 2005, following its three-year investigation. [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005 ] http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/index.html http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html
Dr Jones`s papers are multi peer reviewed. Thermate cuts like butter. Very fast. Placed at an angle, not flat, will slice girders. It is ignited by electronic "matches". This whole opp was radio/computer run. Thermate doesn`t explode, but nano thermite does. Very powerful. How else can oe explain pools of molten iron, metal and some copper. It takes around 4000 degrees for this. Mark
that was the point i was going to make too. that's significant.
http://wb11.trb.com/news/local/health/ny-hsair0911,0,4452966.story?coll=wpix-newshealth-3 One molecule, described by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any sampling we've ever done," Swartz said. He said it was most likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of burning computers. ....."Here I`ll help Erik, the molecule was from a plastic based explosive"..... Roger Clark of the U.S. Geological Survey's Colorado laboratory led a team that provided the first strong pollution data for the White House, delivered on Sept. 17. Clark's team repeatedly flew over New York City collecting a criss-cross data set on readings and collected the first dust samples and submitted them for analysis in the USGS's lab. Their report said hotspots were burning at temperatures of up to 1,800 degrees. ....."Here I`ll help Roger. Kerosene can`t burn at 1800 degrees. It has to be force fed fuel and O2 and still can`t burn at that rate and can`t melt or weaken steel"..... http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=14105&ch=nanotech Military Reloads with Nanotech Smaller. Cheaper. Nastier. Those are the guiding principles behind the military's latest bombs. The secret ingredient: nanotechnology that makes for a bigger boom. By John Gartner Nanotechnology is grabbing headlines for its potential in advancing the life sciences and computing research, but the Department of Defense (DoD) found another use: a new class of weaponry that uses energy-packed nanometals to create powerful, compact bombs. With funding from the U.S. government, Sandia National Laboratories, the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory are researching how to manipulate the flow of energy within and between molecules, a field known as nanoenergentics, which enables building more lethal weapons such as "cave-buster bombs" that have several times the detonation force of conventional bombs such as the "daisy cutter" or MOAB (mother of all bombs). Researchers can greatly increase the power of weapons by adding materials known as superthermites that combine nanometals such as nanoaluminum with metal oxides such as iron oxide, according to Steven Son, a project leader in the Explosives Science and Technology group at Los Alamos. "The advantage (of using nanometals) is in how fast you can get their energy out," Son says. Son says that the chemical reactions of superthermites are faster and therefore release greater amounts of energy more rapidly. "Superthermites can increase the (chemical) reaction time by a thousand times," Son says, resulting in a very rapid reactive wave. ...."Here I`ll help Steve. This stuff, in my opinion, completely pulverized into talc powder the towers".... A newer site that has some info on thermite based copper and iron. Mark
Ok, so assuming a "thermate" cutting charge is somehow beaded around a vertical girder with the side beads running downward at an angle and the top and bottom beads run horizontal, upon ignition, what prevents the molten thermate from dripping down the vertical exterior faces of the girder and/or what causes the molten thermate to cut horizontally into the girder? Even a bead placed at an angle, upon melting will drip down from its original angular bead along the exterior face of the girder. Gravity will not carry molten thermate horizontally from the bead into the girder to make the cut.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Oh, there was dripping and running of iron by-product down the girders. This thermate takes seconds. One is not using a stop watch. A couple blinks of an eye, and its through. The sulfur mix is the key. It just eats steel up. Dr. Jones has pictures of this molten iron that is like stalactites and in other photos hanging down horizontally like a giant blob. You have to remember as these girders were cut through with thermate, other explosives were taking out other supports, which placed more stress, weakend and severed the beams. Mark
How did gravity carry molten thermite horizontally to cut into a vertical girder instead of dragging the molten thermite vertically down the exterior face of the girder?
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
You are under the impression that gravity is needed for thermate to work. This is not the case with the sulfur mix. Dr. Jones work, I believe, shows this. I know that you are trying to put forth a middle, unbiased view. I wish others like yourself, would questioned the government theory as hard. Mark
There has been other info released at the conferences that isn`t online yet. Also Dr. Jones has more results that need more review from other outside sources. Mark
Not chemically, but gravity is what keeps the molten thermite in contact with the surface it is to cut or weld. If you don't believe that, what prevents the molten thermite from cutting sideways or upwards out its crucibles or molds? Why does it always cut and/or melt what is below it? All the videos of thermite and the applications of welding rely upon gravity to pull the molten thermite down onto the target or into the weld joint sealed with a mold around it (such as the railroad rail welding applications). Even the torches and lances rely upon a continued supply of newly molten thermite held against the cut by the technician. I don't see how sulfur changes the gravitational problem posed. A faster hotter reaction does not change the rate at which gravity pulls it downward. Which falls faster - a molten 1lb brick or a frozen 1lb brick? It still does not address directing the molten thermite/thermate horizontally for "several" seconds into a girder that is several inches thick, rather than flowing down the face of that girder. Dr. Jones has only shown the exothermic reaction explains some of the chemical and thermal phenomena. The paper in which he claims to have proven this ostensibly is undergoing peer review and has not been published yet. At least I have not seen it. So no, to the best of my knowledge Dr. Jones has not (yet) shown how thermate/thermite would be applied and controlled to cut in the direction needed.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Chemically is the key. This sulfur mix is not only faster and hotter, it reacts with the steel and eats it up. Comparing welding techniques to this just can`t be done. Hopefully soon, Jones will put out his findings. How would you then explain the pools of iron at all 3 buildings? Mark
Only as long it remains in contact with the surface, ie until gravity pulls it away. Well, thermite welding techniques do illustrate how/why thermite works to cut/ weld anything below it. But you're right insofar as there is no "thermite cutting charge" information against which to compare or apply to the current problem of cutting very thick vertical girders. I don't have an explanation, nor have I read one that seems to fit all the facts, including the government's version. You wrote earlier to me: (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Agreed. Good post and thread. Mark
i think so too. i appreciate the fact that you didn't get defensive. that's the proof of an openmind and a real truthseeker.
I question it as hard as anyone. But I am also aware that forces are at work to discredit the 9/11 truth movement, by pushing us down dead end streets, and dark allies, the "no plane hit the Pentagon" being one of them. My reason for this thread was to find out if the thermate theory is just another one of those instances.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
Re: Sulfer (from the Scolars for 911 Truth forum:) Even materials like rubber will, if burnt, release SO2, not free sulphur. To penetrate steel free sulphur would be required." "Debunking 'Caveman' conspiracy theories since 2002" It's hard to imagine where and how thermate would be usefull in bringing down a building like this, if you're not looking at the actual naked structure. So, I found a good view of the naked structure. :) Now I can see places where it could do a whole bunch of damage.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
And I also see why the official account can not have happened in a million years.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
I`m on board with you on this. I have people wanting to talk about pods, lasers, holograms, etc..Also I won`t discuss much about the Pentagon or Shanksville, because I feel there just isn`t enough to go on, and its a dead end. Everyone can talk and follow what they wish, but I`m trying to get more citizens to question 911 and the surrounding events. Mark
Good photo. People just can`t imagine how massive these buildings were. Mark
There are other molecules and chemicial fingerprints that have been found. Jones would not reveal them at the conference. He stated he needed more research and review. Mark
BTW, a follow up thought regarding what I'd like to see from Professor Jones in "proof" beyond a simple thermo-chemical analysis that thermite/thermate was employed: The only dimension info I've been able to find on the cross section of the WTC 1 & 2 core columns was an estimate from a photo done by MIT. See page 17 of http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/PDFfiles/Chapter%20IV%20Aircraft%20Impact. pdf wherein the girder in a core column is estimated as The problem with those dimensions (beyond being an unofficial estimate) is that IIRC the cross section of columns varies from thicker to thinner progressing upward in the building and hence I would expect the estimate may not be true for all floors throughout the towers. So I would hope to see in such a proof: (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
If this is true, you've uncovered something that no one is saying. There was CONCRETE and steel reinforced elevators, stairways and utility areas. This would be big news in favor of explosives. How would the government explain a "pancake" and core/truss failure by fire? Can I use that link? I'm going to bring it over to the Loose Change Forum. Mark
That is correct. The 47 girders were tapered as they went higher. Also, the core had cross member girders that tied the 47 together. It was like a honey comb or a checkerboard. Mark
I wouldn't know. I don't track this stuff. I don't know how much of the support structure is steel reinforced/encased by concrete, but the presence of steel-reinforced concrete is a complication for the thermite/thermate theory in that the thermite/thermate has to burn through concrete first to get to the steel. It's not mine. Enjoy. Here's a more comprehensive link: http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
I thought I would drop you a quick update. I heard Dr Jones on a radio show very recently and the two types of applications they believe were used of the themate/thermite were in a sol-gel that can be used in either form of a nano-thermite explosive or cutter thermate. The other is a cylinder shape cutter that has a groove/slit that directs the thermate like a knife or laser and needs no gravity. Mark
Thanks very much. Those help to explain how such a cutter charge would be planted (as thermite/ thermate is is fine powder that would otherwise blow or fall away). But once ignited, the thermite/thermate melts and liquifies as it burns and I would think gravity would pull the molten thermite/thermate out of the cut and down the face of the beam instead of across and horizontally through the cut. If you run across an explanation of how such charges would cut horizontally (against gravity) through several inches of metal, or even a video demonstrating an experimental charge cutting horizontally, I'd appreciate another ping.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Patent info on Thermite cutter: http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=26862&Disp=31#C29
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
Patents do not necessarily indicate a commercially (or even experimentally) working device - the patented cutter is largely theoretical, though it might be in development. However, assuming such cutters could be commercially bought in large numbers (hundreds): I would expect at least a few empty discharged cutters would have been found in the debris. As designed, they are awkward to place - a precise "standoff distance" from the surface to be cut is required with clamps of some sort to hold them in place, and given they are cutting through a rectangular beam 3ft x 1ft of 2.6in thick steel, several cutters would have to be "ganged" together all around the beam at each cut. This has to be done at every cut (say 44 beams, every 2nd or 3rd floor, both towers) and then each cutter triggered as well. Quite a logistic feat for a public demolition, let alone a stealth op. Another problem is "thermite cutters" don't explode (they just burn), and hence another explanation for the "demolition explosion squibs" seen bursting out of some windows is needed. But the info is useful. It serves to clarify the logistical problems the "thermite cutter" theory needs to overcome.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
There is much more info available on these. In fact, one diagram I ran across shows them positioned to cut a column. Also in the full text version of the patent, it explains how to use them in tandem to cut columns.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
Yes. I read it and studied the diags. I'd be interested in seeing that configuration, if you can find it again.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
This is off topic, a little, but watch how the towers were built. Building the WTC Interesting 20 minute documentary about the construction of the World Trade Center. Notice how much care and attention was given to it's strength and ability to withstand damage. http://www.question911.com/linkout.php?filename=Building the World Trade Center.wmv (WARNING-47 MEGS)
The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
And how do you know they weren't? The government - local, state and federal - began the transport of debris from the crime scene almost immediately, under police and military guard to landfill in Staten Island, NY which likewise was protected by local, state and federal authorities.
I don't follow where you're going with this. Why do you presume molten thermite/thermate ran horizontally across the face of a beam? Video evidence is available which shows a molten liquid substance pouring out a window - and dropping down - one of the towers before it collapsed.
The product shown in one of the above posts was designed to cut horizontaly through steel columns. It was developed at the request of the US military to be used for "breaching" operations. According to the manufacturer, the military hasn't purchased any of yet. Once the fellow I spoke with started undertanding why I was asking about it, he clammed up. I think it is generally accepted that new products designed for the military are given to the military in sufficient quantitites to be tested for their performance in carrying out the particular operation for which they were designed. I was hoping to find out if that was the case, but couldn't. He did say that when you're dealing with "special forces" they tend to ask for things and then once you give it to them, they decide they don't want it. So I now also know that this product was requested by "special forces". Bummer that I could not get more out of him.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
sure The Pentagon/govt gets all kinds of hardware before it ever goes commercial. Back in the early 90s I knew of a color printer that was held by Dept of Treasury for a couple years, before they would allow the manufacturer to sell it commercially. And a color printer is nothing compared to all the weaponry and gadgets. Same for encryption. The federal govt must always be at least one generation ahead of commercial.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers You are right JT, and not only that, everything was cleaned up and scrubed in 6 months. If someone found something like this, how would they even know what it was. Mark
Thanks for the further info, critter.
The LEOs and rescue people were in the pit to look for survivors and body parts. That said, the "heavy lifting" was done by machine and debris was scooped up without regard to evidence – odd, since this was a crime scene.
I've racked my brains to try and understand those squibs. If there were many more of them, it would be obvious that they were explosions. But that they are so few and scattered in a random way, it doesn't seem to make sense. Proponents of the Official Conspiracy Theory explain them away in a lot of ways. They also explain away the witnesses accounts of explosions. By explaining both of these oddities away, they unwittingly make more of a case for the use of a thermate cutting device. It is fairly obvious from the way the building colapsed, and the debris it left, that this was anything but a gravitational collapse caused by impact damage and fire.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
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#24. To: Critter (#22)
Boulderdash! If sulfur in drywall did this to the WTC buildings, where is all the other evidence of this sulfur erosion in all other fires in highrise buildings and homes and almost every structure in the US?
#25. To: Starwind, *ARG List* (#20)
#26. To: Kamala, Critter (#25)
Dr Jones`s papers are multi peer reviewed
#27. To: christine, critter, starwind (#26)
#28. To: Kamala (#25)
Thermate cuts like butter. Very fast. Placed at an angle, not flat, will slice girders.
#29. To: Starwind (#28)
#30. To: Kamala (#29)
You have to remember as these girders were cut through with thermate,
#31. To: Starwind (#30)
#32. To: Starwind (#30)
#33. To: Kamala (#31)
You are under the impression that gravity is needed for thermate to work.
This is not the case with the sulfur mix.
Dr. Jones work, I believe, shows this.
#34. To: Starwind (#33)
#35. To: Kamala (#34)
This sulfur mix is not only faster and hotter, it reacts with the steel and eats it up.
Comparing welding techniques to this just can`t be done.
How would you then explain the pools of iron at all 3 buildings?
I know that you are trying to put forth a middle, unbiased view. I wish others like yourself, would questioned the government theory as hard.
I'm simply following where the actual data available leads, no more, no less. I have no qualms about questioning the government's theory or anyone elses.
#36. To: Starwind (#35)
I'm simply following where the actual data available leads, no more, no less. I have no qualms about questioning the government's theory or anyone elses.
#37. To: Kamala (#36)
Agreed. Good post and thread.
#38. To: Kamala (#31)
I wish others like yourself, would questioned the government theory as hard.
#39. To: Kamala, Critter (#25)
"...nearly all the sulphur present is in sulphate form, calcium sulphate. All that will happen if you heat it in a kero fire is that any water present will be driven off. In fact that is the method used to make drierite, a dehydrating agent, obtained by heating to 650 deg C.
:: Awoken Research Group :: 4um's 'ARG List' ::
#40. To: Starwind, Kamala, ALL (#35)
#41. To: All (#40)
#42. To: Critter (#38)
#43. To: Critter (#40)
#44. To: valis (#39)
#45. To: Critter, Kamala (#40)
4.4 Core columns
Inside each tower there were 44 large, concrete reinforced, steel columns, which enclosed elevators, stairways, and utility space. Again, the author's inquiries to ascertain exact values for the core column dimensions failed. However, one is able to estimate these values by comparing the size of core columns to the size of exterior columns as captured in photographs of the site, such as the one shown below. With an accuracy compromised by the poor resolution of the photographs available, we determined that each column had a thickness of 67mm, and dimensions of 950mm x 312mm in rectangular cross section.
#46. To: Starwind (#45)
...concrete reinforced, steel columns, which enclosed elevators, stairways, and utility space.
#47. To: Starwind (#45)
is that IIRC the cross section of columns varies from thicker to thinner progressing upward in the building and hence I would expect the estimate may not be true for all floors throughout the towers.
#48. To: Kamala (#46)
If this is true, you've uncovered something that no one is saying.
There was CONCRETE and steel reinforced elevators, stairways and utility areas. This would be big news in favor of explosives.
Can I use that link?
#49. To: Starwind (#48)
#50. To: Kamala (#49)
the two types of applications they believe were used of the themate/thermite were in a sol-gel that can be used in either form of a nano-thermite explosive or cutter thermate. The other is a cylinder shape cutter that has a groove/slit that directs the thermate like a knife or laser and needs no gravity.
#51. To: Starwind, Kamala (#50)
#52. To: Critter (#51)
Patent info on Thermite cutter:
#53. To: Starwind (#52)
#54. To: Critter (#53)
Also in the full text version of the patent, it explains how to use them in tandem to cut columns.
In fact, one diagram I ran across shows them positioned to cut a column.
#55. To: Critter (#0)
(Edited)
#56. To: Starwind (#52)
I would expect at least a few empty discharged cutters would have been found in the debris.
#57. To: Starwind (#50)
But once ignited, the thermite/thermate melts and liquifies as it burns and I would think gravity would pull the molten thermite/thermate out of the cut and down the face of the beam instead of across and horizontally through the cut.
#58. To: Itisa1mosttoolate, Jethro Tull, Starwind (#55)
#59. To: Critter (#58)
According to the manufacturer, the military hasn't purchased any of yet
#60. To: Jethro Tull (#56)
#61. To: Critter (#58)
#62. To: Kamala (#60)
#63. To: Starwind (#52)
Another problem is "thermite cutters" don't explode (they just burn), and hence another explanation for the "demolition explosion squibs" seen bursting out of some windows is needed.
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