Title: Can anyone show me a controlled demolition company that uses Thermate? Source:
None URL Source:http://None Published:Jul 1, 2006 Author:Self Post Date:2006-07-01 17:55:03 by Critter Keywords:None Views:2996 Comments:98
I find only that RDX is used in controlled demolitions. I can't find any link between thermite, or thermate and controlled demolition except on pages discussing 9/11.
I`m on board with you on this. I have people wanting to talk about pods, lasers, holograms, etc..Also I won`t discuss much about the Pentagon or Shanksville, because I feel there just isn`t enough to go on, and its a dead end.
Everyone can talk and follow what they wish, but I`m trying to get more citizens to question 911 and the surrounding events.
There are other molecules and chemicial fingerprints that have been found. Jones would not reveal them at the conference. He stated he needed more research and review.
BTW, a follow up thought regarding what I'd like to see from Professor Jones in "proof" beyond a simple thermo-chemical analysis that thermite/thermate was employed:
4.4 Core columns Inside each tower there were 44 large, concrete reinforced, steel columns, which enclosed elevators, stairways, and utility space. Again, the author's inquiries to ascertain exact values for the core column dimensions failed. However, one is able to estimate these values by comparing the size of core columns to the size of exterior columns as captured in photographs of the site, such as the one shown below. With an accuracy compromised by the poor resolution of the photographs available, we determined that each column had a thickness of 67mm, and dimensions of 950mm x 312mm in rectangular cross section.
The problem with those dimensions (beyond being an unofficial estimate) is that IIRC the cross section of columns varies from thicker to thinner progressing upward in the building and hence I would expect the estimate may not be true for all floors throughout the towers.
So I would hope to see in such a proof:
a definitive statement on the cross section dimensions of the various support columns,
what kind of steel they were made from and its properties, and then
how much thermite/thermate is required to burn through steel girders of that type and cross section and
how long that takes, and then
how is gravity counteracted such that the required amount of molten thermite/thermate is kept in physical contact with the 'cut' for the required burn-through time,
how is it ignited,
how is the ignition of M columns x N cuts coordinated throught the building such that a 'controlled demolition' kind of collapse can be produced.
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...concrete reinforced, steel columns, which enclosed elevators, stairways, and utility space.
If this is true, you've uncovered something that no one is saying. There was CONCRETE and steel reinforced elevators, stairways and utility areas. This would be big news in favor of explosives. How would the government explain a "pancake" and core/truss failure by fire?
Can I use that link? I'm going to bring it over to the Loose Change Forum.
is that IIRC the cross section of columns varies from thicker to thinner progressing upward in the building and hence I would expect the estimate may not be true for all floors throughout the towers.
That is correct. The 47 girders were tapered as they went higher. Also, the core had cross member girders that tied the 47 together. It was like a honey comb or a checkerboard.
If this is true, you've uncovered something that no one is saying.
I wouldn't know. I don't track this stuff.
There was CONCRETE and steel reinforced elevators, stairways and utility areas. This would be big news in favor of explosives.
I don't know how much of the support structure is steel reinforced/encased by concrete, but the presence of steel-reinforced concrete is a complication for the thermite/thermate theory in that the thermite/thermate has to burn through concrete first to get to the steel.
I thought I would drop you a quick update. I heard Dr Jones on a radio show very recently and the two types of applications they believe were used of the themate/thermite were in a sol-gel that can be used in either form of a nano-thermite explosive or cutter thermate. The other is a cylinder shape cutter that has a groove/slit that directs the thermate like a knife or laser and needs no gravity.
the two types of applications they believe were used of the themate/thermite were in a sol-gel that can be used in either form of a nano-thermite explosive or cutter thermate. The other is a cylinder shape cutter that has a groove/slit that directs the thermate like a knife or laser and needs no gravity.
Thanks very much.
Those help to explain how such a cutter charge would be planted (as thermite/ thermate is is fine powder that would otherwise blow or fall away).
But once ignited, the thermite/thermate melts and liquifies as it burns and I would think gravity would pull the molten thermite/thermate out of the cut and down the face of the beam instead of across and horizontally through the cut.
If you run across an explanation of how such charges would cut horizontally (against gravity) through several inches of metal, or even a video demonstrating an experimental charge cutting horizontally, I'd appreciate another ping.
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Patents do not necessarily indicate a commercially (or even experimentally) working device - the patented cutter is largely theoretical, though it might be in development.
However, assuming such cutters could be commercially bought in large numbers (hundreds):
I would expect at least a few empty discharged cutters would have been found in the debris.
As designed, they are awkward to place - a precise "standoff distance" from the surface to be cut is required with clamps of some sort to hold them in place, and given they are cutting through a rectangular beam 3ft x 1ft of 2.6in thick steel, several cutters would have to be "ganged" together all around the beam at each cut. This has to be done at every cut (say 44 beams, every 2nd or 3rd floor, both towers) and then each cutter triggered as well.
Quite a logistic feat for a public demolition, let alone a stealth op.
Another problem is "thermite cutters" don't explode (they just burn), and hence another explanation for the "demolition explosion squibs" seen bursting out of some windows is needed.
But the info is useful. It serves to clarify the logistical problems the "thermite cutter" theory needs to overcome.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
There is much more info available on these. In fact, one diagram I ran across shows them positioned to cut a column. Also in the full text version of the patent, it explains how to use them in tandem to cut columns.
This is off topic, a little, but watch how the towers were built.
Building the WTC Interesting 20 minute documentary about the construction of the World Trade Center. Notice how much care and attention was given to it's strength and ability to withstand damage.
I would expect at least a few empty discharged cutters would have been found in the debris.
And how do you know they weren't? The government - local, state and federal - began the transport of debris from the crime scene almost immediately, under police and military guard to landfill in Staten Island, NY which likewise was protected by local, state and federal authorities.
But once ignited, the thermite/thermate melts and liquifies as it burns and I would think gravity would pull the molten thermite/thermate out of the cut and down the face of the beam instead of across and horizontally through the cut.
I don't follow where you're going with this. Why do you presume molten thermite/thermate ran horizontally across the face of a beam? Video evidence is available which shows a molten liquid substance pouring out a window - and dropping down - one of the towers before it collapsed.
#58. To: Itisa1mosttoolate, Jethro Tull, Starwind (#55)
The product shown in one of the above posts was designed to cut horizontaly through steel columns. It was developed at the request of the US military to be used for "breaching" operations.
According to the manufacturer, the military hasn't purchased any of yet. Once the fellow I spoke with started undertanding why I was asking about it, he clammed up. I think it is generally accepted that new products designed for the military are given to the military in sufficient quantitites to be tested for their performance in carrying out the particular operation for which they were designed. I was hoping to find out if that was the case, but couldn't.
He did say that when you're dealing with "special forces" they tend to ask for things and then once you give it to them, they decide they don't want it.
So I now also know that this product was requested by "special forces".
According to the manufacturer, the military hasn't purchased any of yet
sure
The Pentagon/govt gets all kinds of hardware before it ever goes commercial. Back in the early 90s I knew of a color printer that was held by Dept of Treasury for a couple years, before they would allow the manufacturer to sell it commercially. And a color printer is nothing compared to all the weaponry and gadgets. Same for encryption.
The federal govt must always be at least one generation ahead of commercial.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."
You are right JT, and not only that, everything was cleaned up and scrubed in 6 months. If someone found something like this, how would they even know what it was.
The LEOs and rescue people were in the pit to look for survivors and body parts. That said, the "heavy lifting" was done by machine and debris was scooped up without regard to evidence – odd, since this was a crime scene.
Another problem is "thermite cutters" don't explode (they just burn), and hence another explanation for the "demolition explosion squibs" seen bursting out of some windows is needed.
I've racked my brains to try and understand those squibs. If there were many more of them, it would be obvious that they were explosions. But that they are so few and scattered in a random way, it doesn't seem to make sense.
Proponents of the Official Conspiracy Theory explain them away in a lot of ways. They also explain away the witnesses accounts of explosions. By explaining both of these oddities away, they unwittingly make more of a case for the use of a thermate cutting device.
It is fairly obvious from the way the building colapsed, and the debris it left, that this was anything but a gravitational collapse caused by impact damage and fire.
According to the manufacturer, the military hasn't purchased any of yet. Once the fellow I spoke with started undertanding why I was asking about it, he clammed up.
Actually, no. He sounded legit. He sounded like a guy a but unhappy that they went through a process of inventing, patenting and manufacturing something at the request of "special forces" and now has to find another market for the product. lol
But, I have little doubt that plenty of these devices were sent to the "special forces" for evaluation.
He sounded like a guy a bit unhappy that they went through a process of inventing, patenting and manufacturing something at the request of "special forces" and now has to find another market for the product.
I'm sure that there are plenty of organizations who would be ready buyers of this most useful product.
I've racked my brains to try and understand those squibs. If there were many more of them, it would be obvious that they were explosions. But that they are so few and scattered in a random way, it doesn't seem to make sense.
How about this explanation.. The squibs were seen on the outside of the buildings. Could it be that thermite cutters were used on the main support columns of the core, and explosives in just a few places on the outer members of the buildings, just to ensure a symetrical collapse? Also thermite is apparently hard to ignite. Could explosives have been used as the source of ignition?
As far as not finding any evidence of thermite cutters in the rubble, they probably would have been mangled beyond recognition by the weight of the debris. This of course on top of the fact as pointed out in the thread already of the cleanup being done under such tight security that anyone actually "looking" at the evidence were patsies...
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
I've been wondering, how fast will the thermite cutter go through the support columns? However many of them it would have taken, they had to have worked pretty quickly and in an extremely well controlled sequence to have caused the free-fall speed of the collapses.
When I first heard of molten iron being found a month or more later in the basement, my first thought was "how damned hot did whatever they used get?" I have been in the welding business for many years, and have NEVER seen metal get so hot as to stay molten for even a few minutes if that without a heat source continually applied. My first thought was "suitcase nukes"... And honestly, I'm still not convinced it WASN'T something like that... A nuclear reaction gets hot beyond belief. Of course, that doesn't account for Steven Jones' findings... UNLESS what he was testing was a remnant of aluminum from the plane along with iron from the building, leaving a residue like thermite would - and created by intense heat from tiny nukes...
Not likely we'll ever know the whole truth, past what we already know - it AIN'T the official story.
Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
I'm sure that there are plenty of organizations who would be ready buyers of this most useful product.
In our first conversation on Sunday, I asked him if it was primarily being marketed to building demolition outfits. He said no, building demolitiomn is too small a market for this product.
That made me say hmmmmmm....
I was so trying not to give him my reasons for asking, but he got suspicious, by the questions I was asking. I figure anyone trying to sell to "special forces" isn't going to want to spill the beans about how many and for what, if he knows my purpose is to find out if his product helped take out the WTC. lol
I've racked my brains to try and understand those squibs. If there were many more of them, it would be obvious that they were explosions. But that they are so few and scattered in a random way, it doesn't seem to make sense.
Yeah. None of the theories explain all the "evidence", but the "evidence" seems to require multiple techniques (including hijacked planes). As the complexity grows, so does my skepticism.
There is an answer no doubt, but we may never grasp it. Too few facts, at present anyway.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
I've been wondering, how fast will the thermite cutter go through the support columns? However many of them it would have taken, they had to have worked pretty quickly and in an extremely well controlled sequence to have caused the free-fall speed of the collapses.
The speed, I suspect, isn't near as important as the synchronization and timing. There was lots of time to do the cutting, and thermite (if a cutter can be properly positioned, triggered, and works horizontally) could take up to a minute to cut through 2.6in (thickness of the wall of a beam) of steel, if the cutter actually works horizontally and is not affected by gravity.
But thermite cutters would seem to be essentially "untested" techniques in bringing down a structure like the WTC. The perps would've had to test some against support beams just like those in the WTC and then get them installed and triggered in the right sequence. And getting that sequence right for each WTC tower seems improbable.
How many cutters? SWAG => figure 110 floors divided by 3 (assume cut every 3rd floor) times 44 central core beams times two towers = 110 / 3 x 44 x 2 = 3,226 cuts.
But that assumes 1 cutter can handle cutting an entire beam. Note however the patent app critter found suggests that several cutters could be ganged together in tandem to cut around the beam (3ft by 1ft rectangle = 8ft beam perimeter). Assume a cutter is 1 foot long, you'll need 8 cutters in tandem at each cut. So to make 3,226 cuts requires 3,226 cuts x 8 cutters/cut = 25,808 cutters positioned, triggered, and set off in the right sequence.
And it would take multiple cutters per cut; figure at least 2 3ft-cutters and 2-1ft cutters (assuming you can get them in different lengths) to get around the beam. Keep in mind you can't simply cut from one side or the beam would be partially cut through and start to far over (like a tree) instead of fall straight down as the pictures suggest.
And yet, both towers seem to have come down as if under controlled demolition, with material evidence of thermite, and squib evidence of explosives, and I don't believe burning jet fuel could suffice.
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I don't follow where you're going with this. Why do you presume molten thermite/thermate ran horizontally across the face of a beam?
I don't assume that. I said:
But once ignited, the thermite/ thermate melts and liquifies as it burns and I would think gravity would pull the molten thermite/thermate out of the cut and down the face of the beam instead of across and horizontally through the cut.
So, I would expect molten thermite to run down the beam, instead of cut horizontally through it.
But to actually do the job of cutting horizontally across/through the beam (which is vertical), the "molten thermite" would have to defy gravity so to speak, and not flow down but instead flow across deeper and deeper into the cut.
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So, I would expect molten thermite to run down the beam, instead of cut horizontally through it.
Stephen Jones put his professional reputation on the line with his discovery of termite on the debris, so whether it flowed vertical, horizontal or in a manner yet to be determined is losing the forest for the trees.
With a little preparation, it might flow where you wanted.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."
With a little preparation, it might flow where you wanted.
See the Israeli art students. See them dance in the glow of the burning towers. See them get arrested, only to be released and given passage to Tel Aviv. See Fox News report story. Watch story disappear down the memory hole. And the wheel keeps on turning...
See the Israeli art students. See them dance in the glow of the burning towers. See them get arrested, only to be released and given passage to Tel Aviv. See Fox News report story. Watch story disappear down the memory hole. And the wheel keeps on turning...
JonBenet's not killer arrived at LAX like a rock star. That's the real news!
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."
I would expect at least a few empty discharged cutters would have been found in the debris.
And how do you know they weren't? The government - local, state and federal - began the transport of debris from the crime scene almost immediately, under police and military guard to landfill in Staten Island, NY which likewise was protected by local, state and federal authorities.
I don't know. I'm asking/suggesting what evidence (supportive of the thermite cutter theory) has the possibilty of being found, given the number of cutters required. If someone suggests to go back and look for evidence of "discharged cutters", even one would be very probative. Maybe some were seen but not recognized for what they were.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of conspiracy. It is simply information or facts we don't have. Everything else is speculation. And while the speculation may be plausible, that doesn't make it actual.
The only way I know to solve problems is to stay focused on the facts. Or put another way, if one doesn't know where they're going then any road will get them there, and they may as well shed intellectual inhibitions and invent whatever is most pleasing to them.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a 'completion contract' to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center 'up to the day the buildings fell down.'
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."
Stephen Jones put his professional reputation on the line with his discovery of termite on the debris,
Actually, that would be his academic reputation (not quite the same thing) and I've yet to see his paper which is ostensibly undergoing peer review, ie the "proof" that thermite cutters or cutting charges has not been published, just his thermochemical analysis that thermite is plausible versus the burning jet fuel doesn't cut it.
so whether it flowed vertical, horizontal or in a manner yet to be determined is losing the forest for the trees.
It is easier to disprove (burning jet fuel) than it is to prove (thermite cutting). It's one matter to show thermite is plausible, but quite another to show it was causative.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)