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Title: Can anyone show me a controlled demolition company that uses Thermate?
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Published: Jul 1, 2006
Author: Self
Post Date: 2006-07-01 17:55:03 by Critter
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Views: 2959
Comments: 98
I find only that RDX is used in controlled demolitions. I can't find any link between thermite, or thermate and controlled demolition except on pages discussing 9/11. I find this troublesome for the latest theories.
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#1. To: Critter (#0)
thermite is just a type of material that can be used to destroy. just as explosives can be used to destroy. probably it is cheaper to destroy with regular explosives than this thermite. the regular explosives they use are probably also easier to control and handle and store and use in this type of operation. Why would the people who destroyed the WTC buildings on 09/11/01 use thermite? Maybe you could ask them. Maybe money didn't matter to them. It seems obvious they used regular explosives throughout most of the building. but I think they used thermite at the base of the building. Otherwise why would the pools of molten steel be in the wreckage?
I don't know. I don't know lots of things. lol What troubles me is a statement I read that thermite and thermate burn down, not across a metal, so if you applied it to the sides of columns, it would not cut through them. I cant find any demo video showing thermite or thermate being used to cut any verticle steel. I see a few showing it burn through horizontal steel however. I just like to be sure of things before I devote any effort to promoting a theory.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
Those tube steel columns at the base were very thick. I believe the walls of the tube steel were 6" thick at the very lowest level. and they were something like 36" x 18". they were stacked edge to edge vertical and welded together so that it was basically a wall of steel 36" thick with little 6" hollow cores in each tube steel column. with that particular obstacle it may have been preferable to use thermite as thermite melts the steel. maybe almost no explosive could take down such a formidable thing. maybe they just chose to use it in that base. Remember, syracuse University recorded an earthquake of about 2.0-2.4 on Richter scale that lasted 10 seconds for each of the two buildings and occurred just before they fell. that is consistent with thermite explosives going off at the base. the base is bolted to bedrock. the base was under thermite attack - shaking like crazy as it melted. that's how thermite goes off, it takes a few seconds, not just an instant explosion. and as that thermite chemical continually interacted with the steel over time the steel was kept in a molten state. that molten steel was witnessed by many people at the bottom of the pile. the only explanation in my mind for these symptoms is either thermite or some other chemical that performs similarly with steel. thermite is normally used as a military weapon I think. it is not normally used in building demolition or any other type of construction process.
my understanding of thermite is that it turns steel into a liquid blob or pool. it does not cut through like a welding torch would. it shakes the steel like crazy and turns it to liquid. maybe it could be used like a shaped charge though and focused on one line of steel just as a welding torch blows burnint aceteline to make it able to cut. Maybe they can focus thermite the same way. I feel that the towers were taken down by a professional demolition. but I also think there's bound to be a lot of disinformation for the sake of discrediting people and creating confusion.
Same here. I wish I could link up the two just to be sure.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
ping!
Fed:Thermite nasty stuff, but like fertiliser has legitimate use AAP General News (Australia); 9/23/2004 AAP General News (Australia) 09-23-2004 Fed:Thermite nasty stuff, but like fertiliser has legitimate use CANBERRA, Sept 23 AAP - The Anarchist's Cookbook describes thermite as nasty stuff and, like ammonium nitrate fertiliser which has been used to fuel car bombs, it has entirely legitimate uses. Thermite is a mixture of powdered aluminium and iron oxide, or rust. It burns at spectacularly high temperatures, as hot as 3,500 degrees Celsius, which is hot enough to melt steel. That makes thermite particularly useful for welding. It is most commonly used to join the ends of railway lines. Because the basic ingredients are so readily available, anyone with the inclination could produce their own thermite, aided by some very basic internet research. However, it is relatively difficult to ignite and requires an ignition source much hotter that a cigarette lighter, for example. Magnesium ribbon fuse appears to be the recommended method to ignite the substance. There has been at least one workshop mishap in Australia where the use of a bench grinder produced the ingredients for a thermite reaction with the resulting fireball leaving the operator with serious burns. Thermite is used in hand grenades and charges for military demolitions. The US AN-M14 TH3 incendiary hand grenade contains about half a kilogram of a thermite compound called thermate. AAP mb/cjh/tnf KEYWORD: THERMITE USE © 2004 AAP Information Services Pty Limited (AAP) or its Licensors.
Critter..under Associates on the latest comments page is a link for Scholars For 911 Truth. It's outstanding. There's a link there for Professor Stephen Jones' Power Point Presentation -- http://www.physics.byu.edu/r esearch/energy/. Check it out.
I'm looking for an instance where it was/is used for controlled demolition. The latest theory basically claims that it is commonly used for the purpose, yet I don't find mention of that anywhere except in articles related to this latest theory. Like I said, I just like to double check things. :)
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
ah...ok. lemme ping our *star* researcher then--Starwind.
I don't imagine that any involved players will be advertising this technique today - if they ever did, it would be good to check with google cache, wayback, or some of the other archive resources. Good luck, and keep us posted.
I know it's off topic (LMAO) but I found something interesting in my first search on Internt Archives. I haven't listened to any yet, but I am downloading one now. They are big files. This should be interesting listening.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
Actually, you can listen to a stream of all these files.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
It doesn't really matter what they actually used to demolish the twin towers and WTC7 with. We know they used *something*, but we can't be 100% sure what it was. It's only important to know they did it, not how they did it, or when they did it. One thing we know for sure, those buildings didn't come down due those planes hitting them and the resulting fires.
God is always good! I find this troublesome for the latest theories. Critter -- if you are really serious about gathering this information, here's what you do, in order(but only if you are the type that lies occasionally -- if not, don't do it): 1. Go through your 911 material and write down all the questions you can think of about thermite and other explosives used in demolition. Don't forget to ask about thermite-sulphur compounds. 2. Google and Yahoo search all of the smaller demolition companies you can find across the U.S. (there won't be many). 3. 411 all of the phone numbers you can get on them. 4. Take a day off work, pop a couple of beers to loosen you up and get to work calling your numbers. Now get ready to "pre-text" them -- tell them you are a reporter working on a story for a small town newspaper in(insert small non-existent town here, preferably in a state furthest from demolition companies headquarters). 5. Tell them you are very distressed about the all the nonsense floating around about all the "government did 911" theories, and that people in your small town are getting up in arms about it, and that you are working on a story to combat some of the nonsense. Tell them you need information to help prove that the government had nothing to do with it(this part is dependent solely on your personal ability to bullshit people with a straight face). If you are worried they may try to call the "newspaper" back(and thus discover that some phony guy just called asking about explosives), just tell them you work for a small, unregistered Republican non-profit and are working on the current newsletter. And don't feel guilty -- bounty hunters pre-text(lie) every day to catch their victims. 6. More than likely you will only get secretaries, but hopefully you will be put into contact with managers or field guys who know the business. Some of the companies' personnel may tell you to piss off, but don't get discouraged -- others will come through. Just keep telling them it's bad for America for people to believe 911 conspiracy rubbish. 7. Sit back and learn all you want to know about thermite and its use in demolition, whether it is popular in the industry or not, and don't forget to ask anyone you speak to why, in their opinion, "the crazies" would think that thermite might have been used in 911. The answers might be interesting.
I agree with Ricky J, it doesn't really matter what they actually used to demolish the twin towers and WTC7 with. In fact I still wouldn't be a bit surprised if we only knew the TRUTH of the matter to find they used a "suitcase nuke" in the basement. Wasn't there a machine shop in the basement of at least one of the buildings? What I'm getting at is that I think there would be a good chance of the ingredients for thermite (aluminum and iron oxide) being in those buildings all the time anyhow. A tiny nuke would not only provide enough power to blast the steel apart, but do a considerable amount of "rearranging" AND put out enough heat to melt both steel and iron oxide. Could that be the possible source of the thermite? But the BIG issue isn't what - it's WHO, and most of us are in agreement that BushCo is complicit in the event. Don't let them use the "divide and conquer" strategy on us over the issue of WHAT was used - which would fit their MO perfectly.....
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
Magnesium ribbon fuse appears to be the recommended method to ignite the substance. Magnesium ribbon is tough to ignite. The best way, useing easy to obtain materials, to ignite thermite is to use a common fireworks sparkler. I kid you not - the temperature they reach is perfect for thermite ignition, around 2100 C.
The thermate was applied at a 45 degree angle to the main girders throughout the 3 buildings, and in the corner areas of the tower. The main core girders near the base were 4" thick, 26" wide, 52" long. Waterfalls of molten iron and metal can be seen in a couple videos., and it is not aluminum, as in its molten state, it is silver. Iron/metal is yellow/orange exactly like a thermate reaction. WTC 1 and 2 were not a "controlled" demo in as the only controlled aspect of it was the explosions and rolling explosions that destroyed the towers. I would call the towers a "controlled" explosion. Now. WTC 7 was an implosion. As one explosive engineer said, WTC 7 was "beautiful", "a work of art". This was a high tech military opp. Conventional explosives were not use. Once the planning was done, this didn`t take as long as one would think. Most of the time of an implosion is spent on removing certain supports, covering areas in netting and fencing for safety. The structural steel used in these building was just too massive. A type of plastic based explosive was used as a strange molecule was found all over the WTC area. Dr Jones has discovered a nano thermite that is around 10 times as powerful as tnt. This would account for the pulverizing of everything into a almost talc/flour state. Also a top down explosion, has an umbrella effect, where the dust and debris hides some the visual aspects of explosives. The pools of molten iron are a product of thermate/thermite. Thermate is thermite with sulfur added. Steel from all 3 buildings had sulfadation. Pools of molten iron and metal were found 3 months later in the subbasements. It takes temps of around 4000 degrees to do this. Kersone or any hydrocarbon fire cannot produce this reaction. Here are some clips of WTC 7. This is clearly a demo implosion job. There is some debris squib ejection at the top right. These buildings were rigged to hide, as much as possible, any visual aspects of demolition, but it can still be seen. This building fell in 6.5 sec. An average of 1/7th of a sec per floor. http://wtc7.net/vdocs/wtc_7_cbs.mpg http://wtc7.net/vdocs/wtc7_collapse.mpg http://wtc7.net/vdocs/wtc7_collapse2.mpg http://wtc7.net/docs/streamers.jpg http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/Flashes/squib4.jpg http://www.dzgraphics.com/dzg20/911/WTC7/squibview.mpg http://www.wtc-terrorattack.com/wtc7/collaps_wtc7.htm I know its not as exciting, but the prior warnings and paper trail of evidence is overwhelming. Nafeez Amed, Paul Thompson, and Webster Tarpley have excellent books. Norad being stripped and stood down, all the terror drills being run to piggy back the live drill inside the fake. Put and call options on the companies that would either benefit or lose by the attacks and the coming war. On and on it goes. You must do your own research. Nobody will convince you except you. This is already too long winded of a post for me. I could easily write a giant article, but it has already been done by others that are much more qualified. If you have any questions or need links, please feel free to ask. I have over 300 links and sites pertaining to 911. Mark
well done.
I can't find any link between thermite, or thermate and controlled demolition except on pages discussing 9/11. I looked this up a while back and didn't find anything. I've checked again and there is nothing new, but I'll share the gist of my findings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Thermite gives an overview of the chemical reaction and its history. Note "thermit" and "thermate" are variants. As for commercial applications, welding is the primary use, here's an example http://www. thermitwelding.demon.co.uk/profile.html and welding railroad rails together seems the most frequent. There are no actual cites found for commercial cutting applications, but there are patent applications for improved thermite torches (see http: //patents.globalspec.com/search?query=%22thermite%20cutting%22&show=patents ) but no "cutting charges". Nor can I find any military or defense suppliers of thermite cutting charges (or lances or rods for that matter). For example, goto http://www.the-dma.org.uk/Products/main.asp?Start=T which lists defense products and if you scroll to "thermite cutting charges" and click you get no manufacturers found. Now it may be that information on where to get "thermite cutting charges" has been supressed in recent years, and maybe the military gets their own made up special and outside GSA-procurment, but legitimate commercial applications ought to still be listed if there were any (similar to those for welding) but there seemingly are none. Agreed. There seems to be a lot of hypothetical presumption about "thermite cutting charges" and I've looked for the BYU professors paper on his thermite research and findings but it doesn't seem to be available yet (I don't mean his general paper http://www. physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html but supposedly he has a newer paper specifically "proving" the use of thermite). His general chemistry & physics seem to be in order, assuming "thermite cutting charges" are real items available commercially or militarily, but as mentioned above, I can't find any. My simple understanding of the thermite reaction is that it is difficult to ignite and its reaction rate is not precisely controllable, which would seem to make it unreliable for controlled demolition wherein the timing of cutting through support beams and columns must be thorough and exact to a second or two, otherwise the structure won't collapse as planned. As the thermite reaction is also a slower burning rather than an explosion, it's cutting direction is downward where ever gravity pulls the 'molten thermite' (see http://www. amazingrust.com/Experiments/how_to/Thermite_pics-videos.html) which means making thermite cut laterally across vertical support columns (orthogonal to gravitational pull) instead of dripping/running down the sides would seem to add great difficulty to controlled demolition. While "thermite cutting charges" provide plausible explanations for some of the WTC collapse phenomena, it also introduces some new complications, namely procurring said charges, installing them, and triggering them precisely. Whereas regular demolitions are procurable and triggerable, but still need to be placed/ installed without notice.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
excellent, Starwind, thank you so much. again, there are more questions. nothing's ever cut and dry. we do know for a fact, though, that it's physically impossible for fires to have brought down those three buildings. it's not happened before, since, or ON 911.
Thanks for a very informative post. I pretty much found the same things. I don't know what to make of the professor's work now. I also checked another allegation made that the presence of sulfur can be very simply explained since all the sheetrock in the building contained a high sulfur content. I verified this at various internet sources.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
great info and links!
Mark http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a1201eutectic December 2001: Scientific Journal Describes 'Eutectic Mixture' in WTC Steel A sample of WTC steel eroded and corroded due to eutectic formations. [Source: FEMA] The Journal of the Minerals, Metals and Materials Society (JOM) reports that the examination of a beam from the remains of WTC Building 7—which collapsed late in the afternoon of 9/11 (see (5:20 p.m.))—has revealed "unexpected erosion" of the steel. The article states: "The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached around 1,000�C, forming the eutectic liquid by a process similar to making a 'blacksmith's weld' in a hand forge." [Barnett, Biederman, and Sisson, 12/2001] The New York Times will call this "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." [New York Times, 2/2/2002] FEMA's World Trade Center Building Performance Study, released in May 2002 (see May 1, 2002), will add that the same "unusual erosion patterns" have been observed in a sample of the remaining structural steel from one of the twin towers. It will state, "This sulfur-rich liquid penetrated preferentially down grain boundaries of the steel, severely weakening the beam and making it susceptible to erosion." FEMA is unable to explain this phenomenon, saying, "The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion ... are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. ... It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure." [Federal Emergency Management Agency, 5/1/2002, pp. C-1 - C-13] Despite FEMA's call for further research, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) will make no mention of the eutectic formations in its final report into the WTC collapses, released in late 2005, following its three-year investigation. [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005 ] http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/index.html http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html
Dr Jones`s papers are multi peer reviewed. Thermate cuts like butter. Very fast. Placed at an angle, not flat, will slice girders. It is ignited by electronic "matches". This whole opp was radio/computer run. Thermate doesn`t explode, but nano thermite does. Very powerful. How else can oe explain pools of molten iron, metal and some copper. It takes around 4000 degrees for this. Mark
that was the point i was going to make too. that's significant.
http://wb11.trb.com/news/local/health/ny-hsair0911,0,4452966.story?coll=wpix-newshealth-3 One molecule, described by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any sampling we've ever done," Swartz said. He said it was most likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of burning computers. ....."Here I`ll help Erik, the molecule was from a plastic based explosive"..... Roger Clark of the U.S. Geological Survey's Colorado laboratory led a team that provided the first strong pollution data for the White House, delivered on Sept. 17. Clark's team repeatedly flew over New York City collecting a criss-cross data set on readings and collected the first dust samples and submitted them for analysis in the USGS's lab. Their report said hotspots were burning at temperatures of up to 1,800 degrees. ....."Here I`ll help Roger. Kerosene can`t burn at 1800 degrees. It has to be force fed fuel and O2 and still can`t burn at that rate and can`t melt or weaken steel"..... http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=14105&ch=nanotech Military Reloads with Nanotech Smaller. Cheaper. Nastier. Those are the guiding principles behind the military's latest bombs. The secret ingredient: nanotechnology that makes for a bigger boom. By John Gartner Nanotechnology is grabbing headlines for its potential in advancing the life sciences and computing research, but the Department of Defense (DoD) found another use: a new class of weaponry that uses energy-packed nanometals to create powerful, compact bombs. With funding from the U.S. government, Sandia National Laboratories, the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory are researching how to manipulate the flow of energy within and between molecules, a field known as nanoenergentics, which enables building more lethal weapons such as "cave-buster bombs" that have several times the detonation force of conventional bombs such as the "daisy cutter" or MOAB (mother of all bombs). Researchers can greatly increase the power of weapons by adding materials known as superthermites that combine nanometals such as nanoaluminum with metal oxides such as iron oxide, according to Steven Son, a project leader in the Explosives Science and Technology group at Los Alamos. "The advantage (of using nanometals) is in how fast you can get their energy out," Son says. Son says that the chemical reactions of superthermites are faster and therefore release greater amounts of energy more rapidly. "Superthermites can increase the (chemical) reaction time by a thousand times," Son says, resulting in a very rapid reactive wave. ...."Here I`ll help Steve. This stuff, in my opinion, completely pulverized into talc powder the towers".... A newer site that has some info on thermite based copper and iron. Mark
Ok, so assuming a "thermate" cutting charge is somehow beaded around a vertical girder with the side beads running downward at an angle and the top and bottom beads run horizontal, upon ignition, what prevents the molten thermate from dripping down the vertical exterior faces of the girder and/or what causes the molten thermate to cut horizontally into the girder? Even a bead placed at an angle, upon melting will drip down from its original angular bead along the exterior face of the girder. Gravity will not carry molten thermate horizontally from the bead into the girder to make the cut.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Oh, there was dripping and running of iron by-product down the girders. This thermate takes seconds. One is not using a stop watch. A couple blinks of an eye, and its through. The sulfur mix is the key. It just eats steel up. Dr. Jones has pictures of this molten iron that is like stalactites and in other photos hanging down horizontally like a giant blob. You have to remember as these girders were cut through with thermate, other explosives were taking out other supports, which placed more stress, weakend and severed the beams. Mark
How did gravity carry molten thermite horizontally to cut into a vertical girder instead of dragging the molten thermite vertically down the exterior face of the girder?
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
You are under the impression that gravity is needed for thermate to work. This is not the case with the sulfur mix. Dr. Jones work, I believe, shows this. I know that you are trying to put forth a middle, unbiased view. I wish others like yourself, would questioned the government theory as hard. Mark
There has been other info released at the conferences that isn`t online yet. Also Dr. Jones has more results that need more review from other outside sources. Mark
Not chemically, but gravity is what keeps the molten thermite in contact with the surface it is to cut or weld. If you don't believe that, what prevents the molten thermite from cutting sideways or upwards out its crucibles or molds? Why does it always cut and/or melt what is below it? All the videos of thermite and the applications of welding rely upon gravity to pull the molten thermite down onto the target or into the weld joint sealed with a mold around it (such as the railroad rail welding applications). Even the torches and lances rely upon a continued supply of newly molten thermite held against the cut by the technician. I don't see how sulfur changes the gravitational problem posed. A faster hotter reaction does not change the rate at which gravity pulls it downward. Which falls faster - a molten 1lb brick or a frozen 1lb brick? It still does not address directing the molten thermite/thermate horizontally for "several" seconds into a girder that is several inches thick, rather than flowing down the face of that girder. Dr. Jones has only shown the exothermic reaction explains some of the chemical and thermal phenomena. The paper in which he claims to have proven this ostensibly is undergoing peer review and has not been published yet. At least I have not seen it. So no, to the best of my knowledge Dr. Jones has not (yet) shown how thermate/thermite would be applied and controlled to cut in the direction needed.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Chemically is the key. This sulfur mix is not only faster and hotter, it reacts with the steel and eats it up. Comparing welding techniques to this just can`t be done. Hopefully soon, Jones will put out his findings. How would you then explain the pools of iron at all 3 buildings? Mark
Only as long it remains in contact with the surface, ie until gravity pulls it away. Well, thermite welding techniques do illustrate how/why thermite works to cut/ weld anything below it. But you're right insofar as there is no "thermite cutting charge" information against which to compare or apply to the current problem of cutting very thick vertical girders. I don't have an explanation, nor have I read one that seems to fit all the facts, including the government's version. You wrote earlier to me: (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Agreed. Good post and thread. Mark
i think so too. i appreciate the fact that you didn't get defensive. that's the proof of an openmind and a real truthseeker.
I question it as hard as anyone. But I am also aware that forces are at work to discredit the 9/11 truth movement, by pushing us down dead end streets, and dark allies, the "no plane hit the Pentagon" being one of them. My reason for this thread was to find out if the thermate theory is just another one of those instances.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
Re: Sulfer (from the Scolars for 911 Truth forum:) Even materials like rubber will, if burnt, release SO2, not free sulphur. To penetrate steel free sulphur would be required." "Debunking 'Caveman' conspiracy theories since 2002" It's hard to imagine where and how thermate would be usefull in bringing down a building like this, if you're not looking at the actual naked structure. So, I found a good view of the naked structure. :) Now I can see places where it could do a whole bunch of damage.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
And I also see why the official account can not have happened in a million years.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
I`m on board with you on this. I have people wanting to talk about pods, lasers, holograms, etc..Also I won`t discuss much about the Pentagon or Shanksville, because I feel there just isn`t enough to go on, and its a dead end. Everyone can talk and follow what they wish, but I`m trying to get more citizens to question 911 and the surrounding events. Mark
Good photo. People just can`t imagine how massive these buildings were. Mark
There are other molecules and chemicial fingerprints that have been found. Jones would not reveal them at the conference. He stated he needed more research and review. Mark
BTW, a follow up thought regarding what I'd like to see from Professor Jones in "proof" beyond a simple thermo-chemical analysis that thermite/thermate was employed: The only dimension info I've been able to find on the cross section of the WTC 1 & 2 core columns was an estimate from a photo done by MIT. See page 17 of http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/PDFfiles/Chapter%20IV%20Aircraft%20Impact. pdf wherein the girder in a core column is estimated as The problem with those dimensions (beyond being an unofficial estimate) is that IIRC the cross section of columns varies from thicker to thinner progressing upward in the building and hence I would expect the estimate may not be true for all floors throughout the towers. So I would hope to see in such a proof: (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
If this is true, you've uncovered something that no one is saying. There was CONCRETE and steel reinforced elevators, stairways and utility areas. This would be big news in favor of explosives. How would the government explain a "pancake" and core/truss failure by fire? Can I use that link? I'm going to bring it over to the Loose Change Forum. Mark
That is correct. The 47 girders were tapered as they went higher. Also, the core had cross member girders that tied the 47 together. It was like a honey comb or a checkerboard. Mark
I wouldn't know. I don't track this stuff. I don't know how much of the support structure is steel reinforced/encased by concrete, but the presence of steel-reinforced concrete is a complication for the thermite/thermate theory in that the thermite/thermate has to burn through concrete first to get to the steel. It's not mine. Enjoy. Here's a more comprehensive link: http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
I thought I would drop you a quick update. I heard Dr Jones on a radio show very recently and the two types of applications they believe were used of the themate/thermite were in a sol-gel that can be used in either form of a nano-thermite explosive or cutter thermate. The other is a cylinder shape cutter that has a groove/slit that directs the thermate like a knife or laser and needs no gravity. Mark
Thanks very much. Those help to explain how such a cutter charge would be planted (as thermite/ thermate is is fine powder that would otherwise blow or fall away). But once ignited, the thermite/thermate melts and liquifies as it burns and I would think gravity would pull the molten thermite/thermate out of the cut and down the face of the beam instead of across and horizontally through the cut. If you run across an explanation of how such charges would cut horizontally (against gravity) through several inches of metal, or even a video demonstrating an experimental charge cutting horizontally, I'd appreciate another ping.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Patent info on Thermite cutter: http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=26862&Disp=31#C29
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
Patents do not necessarily indicate a commercially (or even experimentally) working device - the patented cutter is largely theoretical, though it might be in development. However, assuming such cutters could be commercially bought in large numbers (hundreds): I would expect at least a few empty discharged cutters would have been found in the debris. As designed, they are awkward to place - a precise "standoff distance" from the surface to be cut is required with clamps of some sort to hold them in place, and given they are cutting through a rectangular beam 3ft x 1ft of 2.6in thick steel, several cutters would have to be "ganged" together all around the beam at each cut. This has to be done at every cut (say 44 beams, every 2nd or 3rd floor, both towers) and then each cutter triggered as well. Quite a logistic feat for a public demolition, let alone a stealth op. Another problem is "thermite cutters" don't explode (they just burn), and hence another explanation for the "demolition explosion squibs" seen bursting out of some windows is needed. But the info is useful. It serves to clarify the logistical problems the "thermite cutter" theory needs to overcome.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
There is much more info available on these. In fact, one diagram I ran across shows them positioned to cut a column. Also in the full text version of the patent, it explains how to use them in tandem to cut columns.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
Yes. I read it and studied the diags. I'd be interested in seeing that configuration, if you can find it again.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
This is off topic, a little, but watch how the towers were built. Building the WTC Interesting 20 minute documentary about the construction of the World Trade Center. Notice how much care and attention was given to it's strength and ability to withstand damage. http://www.question911.com/linkout.php?filename=Building the World Trade Center.wmv (WARNING-47 MEGS)
The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
And how do you know they weren't? The government - local, state and federal - began the transport of debris from the crime scene almost immediately, under police and military guard to landfill in Staten Island, NY which likewise was protected by local, state and federal authorities.
I don't follow where you're going with this. Why do you presume molten thermite/thermate ran horizontally across the face of a beam? Video evidence is available which shows a molten liquid substance pouring out a window - and dropping down - one of the towers before it collapsed.
The product shown in one of the above posts was designed to cut horizontaly through steel columns. It was developed at the request of the US military to be used for "breaching" operations. According to the manufacturer, the military hasn't purchased any of yet. Once the fellow I spoke with started undertanding why I was asking about it, he clammed up. I think it is generally accepted that new products designed for the military are given to the military in sufficient quantitites to be tested for their performance in carrying out the particular operation for which they were designed. I was hoping to find out if that was the case, but couldn't. He did say that when you're dealing with "special forces" they tend to ask for things and then once you give it to them, they decide they don't want it. So I now also know that this product was requested by "special forces". Bummer that I could not get more out of him.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
sure The Pentagon/govt gets all kinds of hardware before it ever goes commercial. Back in the early 90s I knew of a color printer that was held by Dept of Treasury for a couple years, before they would allow the manufacturer to sell it commercially. And a color printer is nothing compared to all the weaponry and gadgets. Same for encryption. The federal govt must always be at least one generation ahead of commercial.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers You are right JT, and not only that, everything was cleaned up and scrubed in 6 months. If someone found something like this, how would they even know what it was. Mark
Thanks for the further info, critter.
The LEOs and rescue people were in the pit to look for survivors and body parts. That said, the "heavy lifting" was done by machine and debris was scooped up without regard to evidence – odd, since this was a crime scene.
I've racked my brains to try and understand those squibs. If there were many more of them, it would be obvious that they were explosions. But that they are so few and scattered in a random way, it doesn't seem to make sense. Proponents of the Official Conspiracy Theory explain them away in a lot of ways. They also explain away the witnesses accounts of explosions. By explaining both of these oddities away, they unwittingly make more of a case for the use of a thermate cutting device. It is fairly obvious from the way the building colapsed, and the debris it left, that this was anything but a gravitational collapse caused by impact damage and fire.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
did your BS meter explode? ;)
Actually, no. He sounded legit. He sounded like a guy a but unhappy that they went through a process of inventing, patenting and manufacturing something at the request of "special forces" and now has to find another market for the product. lol But, I have little doubt that plenty of these devices were sent to the "special forces" for evaluation.
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
I'm sure that there are plenty of organizations who would be ready buyers of this most useful product.
How about this explanation.. The squibs were seen on the outside of the buildings. Could it be that thermite cutters were used on the main support columns of the core, and explosives in just a few places on the outer members of the buildings, just to ensure a symetrical collapse? Also thermite is apparently hard to ignite. Could explosives have been used as the source of ignition? As far as not finding any evidence of thermite cutters in the rubble, they probably would have been mangled beyond recognition by the weight of the debris. This of course on top of the fact as pointed out in the thread already of the cleanup being done under such tight security that anyone actually "looking" at the evidence were patsies...
Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
I've been wondering, how fast will the thermite cutter go through the support columns? However many of them it would have taken, they had to have worked pretty quickly and in an extremely well controlled sequence to have caused the free-fall speed of the collapses. When I first heard of molten iron being found a month or more later in the basement, my first thought was "how damned hot did whatever they used get?" I have been in the welding business for many years, and have NEVER seen metal get so hot as to stay molten for even a few minutes if that without a heat source continually applied. My first thought was "suitcase nukes"... And honestly, I'm still not convinced it WASN'T something like that... A nuclear reaction gets hot beyond belief. Of course, that doesn't account for Steven Jones' findings... UNLESS what he was testing was a remnant of aluminum from the plane along with iron from the building, leaving a residue like thermite would - and created by intense heat from tiny nukes... Not likely we'll ever know the whole truth, past what we already know - it AIN'T the official story.
Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
In our first conversation on Sunday, I asked him if it was primarily being marketed to building demolition outfits. He said no, building demolitiomn is too small a market for this product. That made me say hmmmmmm.... I was so trying not to give him my reasons for asking, but he got suspicious, by the questions I was asking. I figure anyone trying to sell to "special forces" isn't going to want to spill the beans about how many and for what, if he knows my purpose is to find out if his product helped take out the WTC. lol
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
Yeah. None of the theories explain all the "evidence", but the "evidence" seems to require multiple techniques (including hijacked planes). As the complexity grows, so does my skepticism. There is an answer no doubt, but we may never grasp it. Too few facts, at present anyway.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
The speed, I suspect, isn't near as important as the synchronization and timing. There was lots of time to do the cutting, and thermite (if a cutter can be properly positioned, triggered, and works horizontally) could take up to a minute to cut through 2.6in (thickness of the wall of a beam) of steel, if the cutter actually works horizontally and is not affected by gravity. But thermite cutters would seem to be essentially "untested" techniques in bringing down a structure like the WTC. The perps would've had to test some against support beams just like those in the WTC and then get them installed and triggered in the right sequence. And getting that sequence right for each WTC tower seems improbable. How many cutters? SWAG => figure 110 floors divided by 3 (assume cut every 3rd floor) times 44 central core beams times two towers = 110 / 3 x 44 x 2 = 3,226 cuts. But that assumes 1 cutter can handle cutting an entire beam. Note however the patent app critter found suggests that several cutters could be ganged together in tandem to cut around the beam (3ft by 1ft rectangle = 8ft beam perimeter). Assume a cutter is 1 foot long, you'll need 8 cutters in tandem at each cut. So to make 3,226 cuts requires 3,226 cuts x 8 cutters/cut = 25,808 cutters positioned, triggered, and set off in the right sequence. And it would take multiple cutters per cut; figure at least 2 3ft-cutters and 2-1ft cutters (assuming you can get them in different lengths) to get around the beam. Keep in mind you can't simply cut from one side or the beam would be partially cut through and start to far over (like a tree) instead of fall straight down as the pictures suggest. And yet, both towers seem to have come down as if under controlled demolition, with material evidence of thermite, and squib evidence of explosives, and I don't believe burning jet fuel could suffice.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
I don't assume that. I said: So, I would expect molten thermite to run down the beam, instead of cut horizontally through it. But to actually do the job of cutting horizontally across/through the beam (which is vertical), the "molten thermite" would have to defy gravity so to speak, and not flow down but instead flow across deeper and deeper into the cut. (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Stephen Jones put his professional reputation on the line with his discovery of termite on the debris, so whether it flowed vertical, horizontal or in a manner yet to be determined is losing the forest for the trees.
With a little preparation, it might flow where you wanted.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers See the Israeli art students. See them dance in the glow of the burning towers. See them get arrested, only to be released and given passage to Tel Aviv. See Fox News report story. Watch story disappear down the memory hole. And the wheel keeps on turning...
JonBenet's not killer arrived at LAX like a rock star. That's the real news!
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers I don't know. I'm asking/suggesting what evidence (supportive of the thermite cutter theory) has the possibilty of being found, given the number of cutters required. If someone suggests to go back and look for evidence of "discharged cutters", even one would be very probative. Maybe some were seen but not recognized for what they were. Absence of evidence is not evidence of conspiracy. It is simply information or facts we don't have. Everything else is speculation. And while the speculation may be plausible, that doesn't make it actual. The only way I know to solve problems is to stay focused on the facts. Or put another way, if one doesn't know where they're going then any road will get them there, and they may as well shed intellectual inhibitions and invent whatever is most pleasing to them.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Maybe the security company that Marvin Bush was linked to, knows who had access inside the WTC to do some preparation. Aren't these kinds of coincidences more important than just how they cut or drilled into the metal structure to direct the flow of the thermite? http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Marvin_Bush Margie Burns, "Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United," (http://www.infowars.com/print/Sept11/bush_security_link.htm) Prince George's Journal, February 4, 2003. Also here (http://www.populist.com/03.02.burns.html) and here (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/02/43867.shtml). George W. Bush's brother was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for years to the Bush family. The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a 'completion contract' to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center 'up to the day the buildings fell down.'
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers :) - you mean the man? who wantes to be the next JonBenet?
Actually, that would be his academic reputation (not quite the same thing) and I've yet to see his paper which is ostensibly undergoing peer review, ie the "proof" that thermite cutters or cutting charges has not been published, just his thermochemical analysis that thermite is plausible versus the burning jet fuel doesn't cut it. It is easier to disprove (burning jet fuel) than it is to prove (thermite cutting). It's one matter to show thermite is plausible, but quite another to show it was causative.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Believe what you choose. May god be with you...
Indeed it might. That is precisely the point of exploring the feasibility and practicality of the thermite cutter patent critter has posted.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Not necessarily more important, no. Coincidences are not proof. They do not explain the symptoms/evidence of how the towers fell. Given that it is possible to link anyone in the world to anyone else through a mere six relationships, the sheer volume of plausible coincidences quickly overwhelms the evidence needing explanation. If it can't be proven that explosives/cutters were used, then trying to prove how compromised security permitted the installation of unproven explosives/ cutters is pointless. Exploration of the prequisites for various techniques eliminates the impossible and narrows focus to those possible, hopefully with enough evidence or data to make a conclusive determination of how it was done. Proving how makes it easier to prove who. If a very complex experimental thermite cutter was definitely used, that narrows follow up to who had access and opportunity to thermite cutters. If OTOH, standard demolition explosives were used, that would be a different avenue of investigation.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
The Official Conspiracy Theory says that the plane crash and subsequent fires cause weakening of steel and a resulting gravity collapse. Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory say on one hand, ti was essentially very easy to take down the towers. Cut about 15% (I don't know exact %) of the core and perimeter columns on one or two floors and start a fire. But then on the other hand, they tell us that it would take weeks, if not months to rig the building to come down in a controlled demolition. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between. I have seen videos that show the squibs. I have also seen videos that show possible several hundred feet of core sections still standing for several seconds after the collapse. The way the debris is scattered and the variation of the sizes of the pieces of core and perimeter columns suggest to me that if explosives or thermite cutters were used, they were not used very extensively. My original theory was that the core was attacked in the basement levels to help initiate the collapse. If a six foot section was taken out of all 44 columns somewhere on a basement level at the same time, what effect would that have on the tower?
Do I hear a fat lady singing?
That sounds pretty plausible to me... See my post #68 Take out the base with that much weight above it, and somethin is gonna go. Given the amount and size of thermite cutters it would have taken, it seems to me implausible that even though in the prior weeks there were "shutdowns" described by Daria Corde, SOMEONE independent of the "team" would have noticed something not right...... Of course, I'd never been to the towers. I have no idea of the parking area. It may have been an easy thing to get anything in the buildings without any possibility of being seen by anyone.
"Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
JonBenet's not killer arrived at LAX like a rock star. That's the real news! AHHHH the ol memory hole.. And the media seems to downplay the girl's parents who INTENTIONALLY made the girl into a beauty queen attempting to make her twice her actual age... In other words, EXPLOITED her to a sinful degree, thus opening up the possibility of making her a target to some sick SOB. And another memory hole victim is Randy Weaver, who lost his son and wife to masked government snipers on Aug 21, 1992 in Ruby Ridge simply because he refused to snitch on some supposed acquaintences while they had him in custody for charges which they had entrapped him in.. Wasn't Aug 21 the day they JB killer(?) was being flown here in luxury???
"Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
Thanks for not letting us forget, no matter what tactics they use to distract us.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers Agreed. And in this case, facts certainly don't support the official story. SOMETHING caused vertical columns to "break" in two all along their lengths. STEEL bends, long before it breaks. And those vertical columns weren't going to bend easily. I have been in the welding business many years, and I can tell you for a fact that any flame without the benefit of an oxidizer (oxygen added to the acetylene flame) will not melt thick steel. It MIGHT melt something very thin (like the thickness of a 55 gallon steel drum) after a VERY long time.... I'm sure we've all seen automobiles that burned to a crisp, yet the metal shell of the car remains relatively intact. They don't just melt to the ground, and this is extremely thin material compared to what we are talking about in the towers. Thus jet fuel CANNOT cause sufficient temperature to have any significant effect on those vertical columns. POSSIBLY on horizontal ones, given enough time. I have seen first hand the effects of fire in buildings which took hours to extinguish, and ALL vertical columns were very much intact; even though some horizontal beams had sagged somewhat in the middle.. However, the sagging was from intense heat directly below the beam allowing it to stretch under it's own weight in the middle of the span. It did NOT pull the vertical columns off of plumb.. And these columns were nowhere NEAR the size of the ones used in the towers. In fact, they were merely I-beams, which would be nowhere near as ridgid as rectangular tubing. No sir, those main support columns were compromised by something other than fires. And pancaking doesn't cut it either. If the horizontal beams HAD for some inexplicable reason sheared loose from the columns, the columns STILL would have remained standing until enough beams had broken away as to make them unstable enough to sway and fall over (given their size, several hundred feet) and even then, they would have BENT long before breaking.
"Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
Distraction leads to division, which leads to vulnerability to defeat. Divide and conquer?
"Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
Agreed, at least not the facts as known to date. 'twould seem so. There certainly did not appear to be long (dozens of floor heights) continuously bent and/or crumbpled steel support columns in the rubble. The rubble did seem to show numerous sections (of a few floor heights, consistently) of what were once near- continuous steel support columns. Lastly, the commission's failure or unwilingness to address issues like what brought down WTC7 indicate to me that the research and investigation remain incomplete, even officially.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
William Rodriquez's testimony substantiates that.
Yes, it does. Did you see my post #68? I sure can't say that I'm hitting on something there, but to me it seems a plausible idea. Years of welding in the construction industry, knowledge of how buildings are put together along with materials used, and a little common sense all point to "something rotten in Denmark". How many "nuke" explosive devices of sufficient energy to take out a column could be carried in a single briefcase?? I don't know, but I would think several. I would also think setup time would be significantly shortened, as my thinking would suggest less precision would be needed in placement...
"Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
yes, i did read your #68 the other day and agreed.
The video that was posted by, I think, Christine, shot from across the bay, showed very clearly HUGE explosions ejecting material from the ground level about 20 degrees off vertical easily 100 feet high. The man shooting the video had pro quality equipment, and knew what he was doing. Theses were tremendous explosions, clearly heard and seen. Then, some seconds later the collapse began. I have no idea why this fellow's video is not front and center in the 9-11 debate. I think it is safe to say the fellow dosn't put much into the standard 9-11 line.
that was Rick Siegel's video, 911 Eyewitness. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=- 3498980438587461603
Yep, that's the one. Thanks Chris. Hot in Austin??? Crimmy, it's hot here this morning.
THANKS for reposting this video!!! I hadn't seen it yet..
"Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
#2. To: Red Jones (#1)
Otherwise why would the pools of molten steel be in the wreckage?
#3. To: Critter (#0)
#4. To: Critter (#2)
#5. To: Red Jones (#4)
I feel that the towers were taken down by a professional demolition. but I also think there's bound to be a lot of disinformation for the sake of discrediting people and creating confusion.
#6. To: Arator, Kamala (#0)
#7. To: Critter (#0)
#8. To: Critter (#0)
#9. To: Jethro Tull, Christine (#7)
#10. To: Critter, Starwind (#9)
#11. To: Critter (#9)
I'm looking for an instance where it was/is used for controlled demolition. The latest theory basically claims that it is commonly used for the purpose, yet I don't find mention of that anywhere except in articles related to this latest theory.
#12. To: lodwick, Christine, Jethro Tull, Red Jones (#11)
#13. To: lodwick, Christine, Jethro Tull, Red Jones (#12)
#14. To: Critter (#9)
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#15. To: Critter (#13)
I can't find any link between thermite, or thermate and controlled demolition except on pages discussing 9/11.
#16. To: Critter (#13)
#17. To: Jethro Tull, christine (#7)
However, it is relatively difficult to ignite and requires an ignition source much hotter that a cigarette lighter, for example.
#18. To: Critter (#0)
#19. To: Kamala (#18)
#20. To: christine, critter (#10)
Can anyone show me a controlled demolition company that uses Thermate?
I find this troublesome for the latest theories.
#21. To: Starwind, Kamala, Critter, innieway, Nintendo of the Gods (#20)
#22. To: Starwind (#20)
#23. To: Kamala, *9-11* (#18)
#24. To: Critter (#22)
Boulderdash! If sulfur in drywall did this to the WTC buildings, where is all the other evidence of this sulfur erosion in all other fires in highrise buildings and homes and almost every structure in the US?
#25. To: Starwind, *ARG List* (#20)
#26. To: Kamala, Critter (#25)
Dr Jones`s papers are multi peer reviewed
#27. To: christine, critter, starwind (#26)
#28. To: Kamala (#25)
Thermate cuts like butter. Very fast. Placed at an angle, not flat, will slice girders.
#29. To: Starwind (#28)
#30. To: Kamala (#29)
You have to remember as these girders were cut through with thermate,
#31. To: Starwind (#30)
#32. To: Starwind (#30)
#33. To: Kamala (#31)
You are under the impression that gravity is needed for thermate to work.
This is not the case with the sulfur mix.
Dr. Jones work, I believe, shows this.
#34. To: Starwind (#33)
#35. To: Kamala (#34)
This sulfur mix is not only faster and hotter, it reacts with the steel and eats it up.
Comparing welding techniques to this just can`t be done.
How would you then explain the pools of iron at all 3 buildings?
I know that you are trying to put forth a middle, unbiased view. I wish others like yourself, would questioned the government theory as hard.
I'm simply following where the actual data available leads, no more, no less. I have no qualms about questioning the government's theory or anyone elses.
#36. To: Starwind (#35)
I'm simply following where the actual data available leads, no more, no less. I have no qualms about questioning the government's theory or anyone elses.
#37. To: Kamala (#36)
Agreed. Good post and thread.
#38. To: Kamala (#31)
I wish others like yourself, would questioned the government theory as hard.
#39. To: Kamala, Critter (#25)
"...nearly all the sulphur present is in sulphate form, calcium sulphate. All that will happen if you heat it in a kero fire is that any water present will be driven off. In fact that is the method used to make drierite, a dehydrating agent, obtained by heating to 650 deg C.
:: Awoken Research Group :: 4um's 'ARG List' ::
#40. To: Starwind, Kamala, ALL (#35)
#41. To: All (#40)
#42. To: Critter (#38)
#43. To: Critter (#40)
#44. To: valis (#39)
#45. To: Critter, Kamala (#40)
4.4 Core columns
Inside each tower there were 44 large, concrete reinforced, steel columns, which enclosed elevators, stairways, and utility space. Again, the author's inquiries to ascertain exact values for the core column dimensions failed. However, one is able to estimate these values by comparing the size of core columns to the size of exterior columns as captured in photographs of the site, such as the one shown below. With an accuracy compromised by the poor resolution of the photographs available, we determined that each column had a thickness of 67mm, and dimensions of 950mm x 312mm in rectangular cross section.
#46. To: Starwind (#45)
...concrete reinforced, steel columns, which enclosed elevators, stairways, and utility space.
#47. To: Starwind (#45)
is that IIRC the cross section of columns varies from thicker to thinner progressing upward in the building and hence I would expect the estimate may not be true for all floors throughout the towers.
#48. To: Kamala (#46)
If this is true, you've uncovered something that no one is saying.
There was CONCRETE and steel reinforced elevators, stairways and utility areas. This would be big news in favor of explosives.
Can I use that link?
#49. To: Starwind (#48)
#50. To: Kamala (#49)
the two types of applications they believe were used of the themate/thermite were in a sol-gel that can be used in either form of a nano-thermite explosive or cutter thermate. The other is a cylinder shape cutter that has a groove/slit that directs the thermate like a knife or laser and needs no gravity.
#51. To: Starwind, Kamala (#50)
#52. To: Critter (#51)
Patent info on Thermite cutter:
#53. To: Starwind (#52)
#54. To: Critter (#53)
Also in the full text version of the patent, it explains how to use them in tandem to cut columns.
In fact, one diagram I ran across shows them positioned to cut a column.
#55. To: Critter (#0)
(Edited)
#56. To: Starwind (#52)
I would expect at least a few empty discharged cutters would have been found in the debris.
#57. To: Starwind (#50)
But once ignited, the thermite/thermate melts and liquifies as it burns and I would think gravity would pull the molten thermite/thermate out of the cut and down the face of the beam instead of across and horizontally through the cut.
#58. To: Itisa1mosttoolate, Jethro Tull, Starwind (#55)
#59. To: Critter (#58)
According to the manufacturer, the military hasn't purchased any of yet
#60. To: Jethro Tull (#56)
#61. To: Critter (#58)
#62. To: Kamala (#60)
#63. To: Starwind (#52)
Another problem is "thermite cutters" don't explode (they just burn), and hence another explanation for the "demolition explosion squibs" seen bursting out of some windows is needed.
#64. To: Critter (#58)
According to the manufacturer, the military hasn't purchased any of yet. Once the fellow I spoke with started undertanding why I was asking about it, he clammed up.
#65. To: christine (#64)
did your BS meter explode? ;)
#66. To: Critter (#65)
He sounded like a guy a bit unhappy that they went through a process of inventing, patenting and manufacturing something at the request of "special forces" and now has to find another market for the product.
#67. To: Critter (#63)
I've racked my brains to try and understand those squibs. If there were many more of them, it would be obvious that they were explosions. But that they are so few and scattered in a random way, it doesn't seem to make sense.
#68. To: Critter, Starwind, ALL (#63)
#69. To: lodwick (#66)
I'm sure that there are plenty of organizations who would be ready buyers of this most useful product.
#70. To: Critter (#69)
Yep - I do think that the chubby chick is warming up.
#71. To: Critter (#63)
I've racked my brains to try and understand those squibs. If there were many more of them, it would be obvious that they were explosions. But that they are so few and scattered in a random way, it doesn't seem to make sense.
#72. To: innieway, critter (#68)
I've been wondering, how fast will the thermite cutter go through the support columns? However many of them it would have taken, they had to have worked pretty quickly and in an extremely well controlled sequence to have caused the free-fall speed of the collapses.
#73. To: Jethro Tull (#57)
(Edited)
I don't follow where you're going with this. Why do you presume molten thermite/thermate ran horizontally across the face of a beam?
But once ignited, the thermite/ thermate melts and liquifies as it burns and I would think gravity would pull the molten thermite/thermate out of the cut and down the face of the beam instead of across and horizontally through the cut.
#74. To: Starwind (#73)
So, I would expect molten thermite to run down the beam, instead of cut horizontally through it.
#75. To: Starwind (#73)
#76. To: robin (#75)
With a little preparation, it might flow where you wanted.
#77. To: Jethro Tull (#76)
See the Israeli art students. See them dance in the glow of the burning towers. See them get arrested, only to be released and given passage to Tel Aviv. See Fox News report story. Watch story disappear down the memory hole. And the wheel keeps on turning...
#78. To: Jethro Tull (#56)
I would expect at least a few empty discharged cutters would have been found in the debris.
And how do you know they weren't? The government - local, state and federal - began the transport of debris from the crime scene almost immediately, under police and military guard to landfill in Staten Island, NY which likewise was protected by local, state and federal authorities.
#79. To: Starwind, Jethro Tull (#78)
#80. To: robin (#77)
JonBenet's not killer
#81. To: Jethro Tull (#74)
Stephen Jones put his professional reputation on the line with his discovery of termite on the debris,
so whether it flowed vertical, horizontal or in a manner yet to be determined is losing the forest for the trees.
#82. To: Starwind (#81)
#83. To: robin (#75)
With a little preparation, it might flow where you wanted.
#84. To: robin (#79)
(Edited)
Aren't these kinds of coincidences more important than just how they cut or drilled into the metal structure to direct the flow of the thermite?
#85. To: Starwind (#72)
And yet, both towers seem to have come down as if under controlled demolition, with material evidence of thermite, and squib evidence of explosives, and I don't believe burning jet fuel could suffice.
#86. To: Critter (#85)
My original theory was that the core was attacked in the basement levels to help initiate the collapse. If a six foot section was taken out of all 44 columns somewhere on a basement level at the same time, what effect would that have on the tower?
#87. To: robin (#77)
Watch story disappear down the memory hole. And the wheel keeps on turning...
#88. To: innieway (#87)
And another memory hole victim is Randy Weaver, who lost his son and wife to masked government snipers on Aug 21, 1992 in Ruby Ridge simply because he refused to snitch on some supposed acquaintences while they had him in custody for charges which they had entrapped him in.. Wasn't Aug 21 the day the JB killer(?) was being flown here in luxury???
#89. To: Starwind (#78)
The only way I know to solve problems is to stay focused on the facts.
#90. To: robin (#88)
no matter what tactics they use to distract us.
#91. To: innieway (#89)
(Edited)
And in this case, facts certainly don't support the official story.
SOMETHING caused vertical columns to "break" in two all along their lengths.
STEEL bends, long before it breaks. And those vertical columns weren't going to bend easily.
#92. To: Critter, innieway (#85)
My original theory was that the core was attacked in the basement levels to help initiate the collapse. If a six foot section was taken out of all 44 columns somewhere on a basement level at the same time, what effect would that have on the tower?
#93. To: christine (#92)
William Rodriquez's testimony substantiates that.
#94. To: innieway (#93)
#95. To: innieway, christine, starwind, sky drifter (#93)
#96. To: tom007, Kamala, Arator (#95)
#97. To: christine (#96)
#98. To: christine (#96)
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