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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: DEBUNKING CONSPIRACY THEORISTS
Source: serendipity
URL Source: http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm
Published: Feb 15, 2003
Author: Gerard Holmgren
Post Date: 2006-07-30 20:44:14 by wakeup
Keywords: None
Views: 665
Comments: 44

Astute observers of history are aware that for every notable event there will usually be at least one, often several, wild conspiracy theories which spring up around it. "The CIA killed Hendrix", "The Pope had John Lennon murdered ", "Hitler was half Werewolf", "Space aliens replaced Nixon with a clone", etc, etc. The bigger the event, the more ridiculous and more numerous are the fanciful rantings which circulate in relation to it.

So it's hardly surprising that the events of Sept 11 2001 have spawned their fair share of these ludicrous fairy tales. And as always, there is sadly a small but gullible percentage of the population eager to lap up these tall tales, regardless of facts or rational analysis.

One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11, and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they "hate our freedoms."

Click for Full Text!

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Where have I heard all this before?

SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-07-30   22:36:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The problem with this is I've caught too many shills and other idiots using this principle to support the phony gov't story.

yeah, me too. it annoys the hell out of me.

christine  posted on  2006-07-30   22:48:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them, and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand-down of the US Air Force, the insider trading on airline stocks — linked to the CIA, the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19 Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer 4 planes simultaneously and fly them around US airspace for nearly 2 hours, crashing them into important buildings, without the US intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.

my favorite part of the article.

christine  posted on  2006-07-30   22:53:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

He seems to be right on until you get to the no planes part.

He replied to my mail-out about the C-SPAN broadcast and believes "scholars" is disinformation.

I like to hear all sides.

Adolf Hitler... "What luck for rulers that men do not think."

John F. Kennedy... "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

wakeup  posted on  2006-07-30   23:03:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

btw, when i read this i am picturing Sean Hannity.

christine  posted on  2006-07-30   23:32:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

TWA 800, or OKC?

"To wield onself -- to use oneself as a tool in one's own hand -- and so to make or break that which no one else can build or ruin -- THAT is the greatest pleasure known to man! To one who has felt the chisel in his hand and set free the angel prisoned in the marble block, or to one who has felt sword in hand and set homeless the soul that a moment before lived in the body of his mortal enemy -- to those both come alike the taste of that rare food spread only for demons or for gods." -- Gordon R. Dickson, "Soldier Ask Not"

Axenolith  posted on  2006-07-31   1:58:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You see, the kerosine not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball, vapourizing a 65 ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000°C for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper's steel like butter. And while it was doing all this it also poured down the elevator shafts, starting fires all through the building.

LOL. Priceless.

But actually this article leaves me with more questions than anything. Is the author suggesting the planes were remote controlled? What does he offer as happening to the Pentagon Plane? Surely there is a record of it, and its passengers, leaving the airport. Did it drop off the radar, and when? The passengers would had to have all been executed at a secret landing location. Didn't air traffic control see where the plane went?

"As America give billions to Israel, our schools complain of a lack of money and our government complains it cannot afford to create a proper train system. The USA is like a retarded girl who has been tricked by the neighborhood boys into letting them have sex." -- Hufshmid

Nintendo of the Gods  posted on  2006-07-31   3:12:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

What does he offer as happening to the Pentagon Plane? Surely there is a record of it, and its passengers, leaving the airport. Did it drop off the radar, and when? The passengers would had to have all been executed at a secret landing location. Didn't air traffic control see where the plane went?

No one knows for sure, but the Atlantic Ocean holds many secrets under the waves.

"Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back." Lord Keynes

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-07-31   9:24:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"...actually this article leaves me with more questions than anything."

I asked the author to give it to me plainly, as I was having difficulty keeping up with all the reading and links he provided. This is what I received this morning from Gerard Holmgren:

I can make it simple(r), but I hope that you'll appreciate that I can't do that at the same time as making it convincing. But that's fine. At least you'll then know what you're looking for.

Take Nazism and WW2.

The Nazis didn't lose the war, they won it. After the burned out host of Germany was no use any more, they abandoned it and set up shop in the US.

The cover of Germany (equated with the Nazis) having suffered a devastating defeat was brilliant. It allowed people to think that the evil doers had been defeated and punished, and at the same time actually put the people who really behind it all into the being the position of the good guys who had defeated the bad guys (since the bad guys basically ran both sides.)

The corpse of the Hitler regime was kicked all the way down the street, Hitler was made out to be a peculiar aberrant maniac who had driven the whole thing himself along with a bunch of equally loony mates, who were thankfully now all dead or imprisoned and things could get back to normal.

A few of the more obvious perps who were no use any more were hung out in a show trial, while everyone who had organized the whole thing behind the scenes became the liberation rulers of the new world. The perps who were still useful were given new jobs, mostly working for the CIA and NASA and the weapons program. I guess the Soviets probably got a share of them too, but I don't know so much about that.

The psych of the entire period of history from 1945 to 1990 was basically modeled on our glorious victory over Nazism and our recovery from the horrific crimes of the Nazis , how close they came to world domination and their eventual miraculous defeat, snatched by the good guys when all seemed lost.

It was used as the motivation to set up Israel, and ensure an ever present trigger for the next conflagration - just as the simmering leftovers from WW1 were used to set up WW2.

The horrors of Nazism - completely engineered by the same people who supposedly defeated it - were used as the founding trauma event for the new world.

Everything was measured against the background of gratitude that at least we stopped that madness and avenged it.

We were given an event which was almost surreal in its horror level. Anything which defeated it and avenged it had to be good.

In order to cover up what was really behind it, we had a limited hangout of now expendable villains.

Now see S11 as the same kind of event - almost surreal, movie like. (Because in fact it was part real and part movie).

So now we need pretend justice for it. Cartoon villains like Silverstein and Bush who were really just the puppets to do the dirty work are on the front line to take the fall. When the acceptance of an inside job becomes mainstream, then the outrage levels will be so out of control that no one will care about wanting to know the deeper story. They'll just want justice and revenge for the bad guys.

As with WW2 and Nazism, the real designers keep their hands clean, paint themselves as the justice givers, and use the subsequent shock and outrage as the tool for moving on to the next scam, and building the next nightmare.

The main official story was never designed to last all that long. There's too many holes in it. Jut long enough to commit unspeakable atrocities in the phony "retaliation" which itself will then raise the horror and outrage level when the "truth" comes out.

The "truth" can be anything which says "we were lied to." Just like "justice" was anything which saw a Nazi get busted.

Mind you, one of the worst war criminals of all , Werner Von Braun, was spared "justice" and given an exalted position as head of NASA along with a lot of his fellow scum. People sort of "forgot" to notice that. Like the Simon Weisenthal foundation which made a big song and dance of hunting down and prosecuting every last petty officer who shot 3 people at a camp - probably because he would have been shot himself if he didn't - but had a strange case of amnesia/forgiveness when it came to some of the worst Nazi scum, who just happened to be extremely useful to the US weapons and Space program - which was really just a continuation of the Nazi program, relocated to the USA.

If the shock and outrage of the event is big enough, this kind of scam is routine. As long as there is a cartoon villain to put up front and stone to death, then people don't notice.

Bush and Silverstein are ideal candidates for the distraction stoning ritual.

Meanwhile, what will get passed over in all of this is that the very same media which is almost to the point of starting to holler "we want the truth about Sept 11" is the same gang which actually organized the whole damn psy-op. The cartoon of that non existent plane flying into the tower.

As long as there are planes of any kind in the story, the media gets off free. Remote controlled planes are just as easy to incorporate into a limited hangout.

Military planes with pods and all that crap. As long as people think that the media simply showed what was there, and failed to interpret it correctly.

There weren't any planes. The media showed us cartoons and passed it off as a real event. The same media will now become the heroes in presenting the shocking "truth" of the event. Demolition. And any kind of plane, whether a passenger jet hijacked by Arab maniacs or a remote controlled jet with a pod, organized by the evil villain Bush will do for "truth".

This is also why the issue of plagiarism is critical. If things actually worked as they are supposed to, then even TENC's series of articles in late 2001/early 2002 should have led to treason proceedings within months.

Why didn't they ? Because *everyone* covered up and pretended not to know.

As I mentioned in the scholars article, the subsequent complicity of the media, the so called political opposition and the scientific community is now as big an issue as the attacks themselves.

How can such information be fully available in the public domain for 4 years and nobody notice ? So along comes a group of "respected scholars" to tell us that they have just discovered it all - just now.

"They're own physics research... They have examined the Bin Laden confession video and found...they charge that the air force was stood down..."

Ah - all new. Nobody knew. How could anybody have known ? Only scholars and experts can work out these complex matters, and even those maginifient intellects needed years to unearth the shocking truth.

And so everyone who helped cover it up for the last four years does the outrage act and the "we didn't know" chant - just like in relation to the Nazi atrocities.

"We didn't know ! Nobody told us ! How could we have known ? Why didn't somebody say thing ? Why didn't somebody do something ? How could this have happened ? We didn't know ! We didn't know ! "

You know the routine.

And so the limited hangout gets under way in exactly the configuration they want. The escape tunnel is created for everyone who looked the other way or even helped the whole thing. "We never knew ! " And just as with WW2 and Nazism, the main perps themselves become the heroes of defeating the evil.

Given what we know of Steven Jones' background, its even possible that he was directly involved in helping to design the demolition.

As for the new world they want to create in its wake, the prototype is being trialed on the fringes of society through the "truth movement" which is a mass mind control experiment.

The trauma of the lies is so shocking that the word "truth" has become a mind control trigger.

Trauma and torture is a key element in mind control. Once the subject is broken, then they will usually cling to their torturer as their protector.

This is in fact how the whole psychology of the war on terror has worked. People terrified of the Arab boogie man clung to Bush like a protective father. Once Bush becomes the boogie man, then people will cling sobbing to *anyone* who utters the magic words "we were lied to" - as a savior.

"Truth" is about to become a religion. And truth will be anything which says "we were lied to".

One of the most sickening examples of this recently is the attempt to paint Scott Ritter as a "truther". Ritter as a UN weapons inspector, helped to set up the Iraq war by demonizing Iraq and pushing the WMD crap for years. As in the normal routine, once the war started, the same media which orchestrated the hysteria which was used as justification also orchestrated the phny campaign against it. In the blinking of an eye, people like Ritter suddenly became heroes for saying that WMD was a lie - when for years he had been one of the main architects of building the whole lie.

So Ritter - even though he's never said anything about Sept 11 is suddenly a "truther" because he's said the magic words. "Bush lied to us". And all the trauma controlled truthlings cling sobbing to him as a truth hero.

The WMD scam was an interesting sideline to it. They *deliberately* exposed themselves as lying over WMD in order to create the very kind of trauma condition that I've been talking about as a precursor to a lunatic "truth" cult.

They could have come up with any number of more credible excuses for invading Iraq. Or if they were going to stick to WMD, it would have been child's play to fabricate evidence for them enough to fool the average CNN watcher. When they can pull off a scam like S11, it would be easy to at least give it a decent shake. They didn't even try.

They put it right in our faces that they were lying. And then orchestrated a truth campaign headed by the same people who built the lie. Our Aussie equivalent of Scott Ritter, is Richard Butler, another UN weapons inspector WMD scaremongerer, who along with Ritter, spent a decade building the WMD lie, and then somehow became the leader of the anti Iraq war demos here, thunderously declaring that the US and Aust Govts were lying through their teeth about WMD.

The trauma is so intense that it is creating double think as a briefly alluded to before in the crazy cult surrounding Griffin and S. Jones.

Truth can be any number of totally contradictory things at the same time. Just as long as you say "we were lied to", then whatever you say is truth.

Again - have you read "1984" ? If you haven't I need to explain a bit about double think and "newspeak" and the "ministry of truth", so you'll have a better idea of where this is leading to from now.

My Reply:

I find all of this very interesting and important. Thank you.

You are now talking on my level. I think I can keep up so, more, please.

On a specific issue, how do you explain the multiple video examples of the second plane hitting tower two?

One in particular, comes to mind. First you hear the plane, a fireman looks up, following the plane across the sky as it strikes the tower with the fireman looking straight at the scene. How could that be faked? Lots of angles, from various cameras are available in the In Plane Site DVD, as the "pod and missile" argument is made.

Address that if you would and please, share the next part of your fascinating explanation. I have read 1984 and I understand the terms.

Ron

Adolf Hitler... "What luck for rulers that men do not think."

John F. Kennedy... "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

wakeup  posted on  2006-07-31   20:01:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ping Read 14 and share your thoughts please.

Adolf Hitler... "What luck for rulers that men do not think."

John F. Kennedy... "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

wakeup  posted on  2006-07-31   22:49:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Really interesting read, thanks for the ping. I kept thinking about Operation Paperclip and the interviews with Kay Griggs as I read it.

I don't know who is orchestrating all the evil, besides Satan, but if it is an organized group like the NWO/Illuminati then they are very, very good and have a rather long history (this is why I find it difficult to believe in such an invisible hand). I wonder if there isn't just a lot of opptys for evil and plenty of people willing to take advantage of those opptys. There may be loosely organized people, which is how I see the Jews, with differences of opinions among themselves. But, when oppty arises, they will hire/promote/help one of their own. Many immigrant groups do the same, these other groups just aren't running our foreign and domestic policies right now.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-08-01   1:17:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Like the Simon Weisenthal foundation which made a big song and dance of hunting down and prosecuting every last petty officer who shot 3 people at a camp - probably because he would have been shot himself if he didn't - but had a strange case of amnesia/forgiveness when it came to some of the worst Nazi scum, who just happened to be extremely useful to the US weapons and Space program - which was really just a continuation of the Nazi program, relocated to the USA.

Some Nazis sure seemed to be worse than others. Modern History desperately needs to exhume some of the WW11 to regain there credibility.

Something really STINKS in the history department of the US. And has for years.

tom007  posted on  2006-08-01   1:31:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

He's pretty much on the money.

"Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back." Lord Keynes

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-08-01   6:25:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The key word is Nazi ... Ashke-NAZI Jews are one of the shells in the shell game. The Jesuits and the Masonic Illumi-nazi are the others. Three shells, and there's a pea under each of them. They are the trinity of satan, they reside in the three false sovereignties known as the Vatican, the city, and the state of israel.

The three exist almost invisibly to the general public and for the purpose of keeping everyone confused as to ... who dunnit.

History details their migrations from Babylon (Babel) ... and all empires have been part and parcel of their dominance over the masses. Babylon is the "Mother of Harlots" ... The Jews aren't Israelites, The Jesuits aren't holy, and the Illuminati aren't philanthropists ... they're all blood-sucking, murdering cabalists.

The "Mystery" of "Iniquity" (spoken of in the Scriptures) is why we participate in their murder.

In a June, 1992 exclusive and published interview granted by President George H. W. Bush to Sarah McClendon, the grand dame of the White House press corps at the time, McClendon said: "George Bush, what will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George Bush replied: 'Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us.' "

It won't be long before Americans learn that Bush was intimately involved in the Nov. 22, 1963 coup that forever changed America into Fascist Amerika !

noone222  posted on  2006-08-01   7:07:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I studied four years at a Jesuit high school, and they certainly didn't let me in on any conspiracies. On the other hand, they did give me a very good education for free.

aristeides  posted on  2006-08-01   8:05:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I studied four years at a Jesuit high school

I was raised Catholic and almost attended Brebeuf Prepatory, a Jesuit High School. I'm certain that the education there is superior to most available elsewhere ... what I'm not certain of is how they select the individuals for "higher service" !

In a June, 1992 exclusive and published interview granted by President George H. W. Bush to Sarah McClendon, the grand dame of the White House press corps at the time, McClendon said: "George Bush, what will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George Bush replied: 'Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us.' "

It won't be long before Americans learn that Bush was intimately involved in the Nov. 22, 1963 coup that forever changed America into Fascist Amerika !

noone222  posted on  2006-08-01   8:12:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I studied four years at a Jesuit high school, and they certainly didn't let me in on any conspiracies.

Have you read any of Malachi Martin's stuff ... though I never trusted what he had to say because most of it was "feel good humanism" and anti-scriptural, as are most Catholic teachings and doctrines ... I was convinced to accept the fact that the Roman Church has and is participating in international intrigue.

[See Roberto Calvi hanging from Black Friars Bridge ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi ]

Malachi Martin was a Jesuit, and I believe a Jew as well. He stated that his Book ... "Windswept House" was a novel based upon facts and only the names had been changed to protect the guilty.

In a June, 1992 exclusive and published interview granted by President George H. W. Bush to Sarah McClendon, the grand dame of the White House press corps at the time, McClendon said: "George Bush, what will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George Bush replied: 'Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us.' "

It won't be long before Americans learn that Bush was intimately involved in the Nov. 22, 1963 coup that forever changed America into Fascist Amerika !

noone222  posted on  2006-08-01   8:19:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It all revolves around the nazis and those who created them. A good place to find out about how this was done is to read the book by Antony Sutton, WALL STREET AND THE RISE OF HITLER, there's a online version here: http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/ It was the same people that created the nazis who made sure they WON WORLD WAR TWO! Yes there is a financial entity that is very strong in the world of money that was created by Martin Bormann AFTER the war, what Dave Emery calls the "underground reich". Here's a online version of one of the most important books ever published by Paul Manning, the CBS reporter that covered WW2. The book, Martin Bormann, Nazi In Exile is here: http://www.animalfarm.org/mb/mb.shtml After reading that book you will begin to understand the reality the elites have been manufacturing for the last 60 years or so, what they lovingly call their new world order.

Truthseeker

loner  posted on  2006-08-01   10:07:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The Jesuits and the Masonic Illumi-nazi are the others.

Okay, you pressed my button.

I'm up to my ears in Freemasonry - and I speak with integrity when I tell you that there is no suggestion of any conspiracy; unless it is to destroy the Order. The Masonic membership numbers are badly dwindling.

The Illuminati died in 1785, with no evidence of its survival; barring raw ignorance and cheap innuendo. Other than the wishful thinking of Adam Weishaupt, there never ewas any significant connection between the Craft and the Illuminati. (Yes, there is a computer game by that name.)

If you've got anything factual, let's hear it. Please don't cast BS as 'fact.'

There are a lot of "high sounding" statements around, but none which are supported by fact - that I've ever found.

If you do a modicum of homework, you'll find that mixing "Jesuit" and "Masonic" is the epitome of oil-and-water.

SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-08-01   11:27:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

ping to an interesting post, wake up's #14

"As a small faction of corporate fascists and racist supremacists hijack the U.S. government unto a Mid-East power grab for oil, land and geopolitical hegemony… the kind men among mankind must seize the moral high ground.”

christine  posted on  2006-08-01   11:45:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I guess that blonde in the Pulizer Prize photo - depicting her standing in the impact hole of the WTC - was another hologram. Funny, how so many pictures of the impact holes all tell the identical story of planes actually hitting the WTC towers.

Etc.

SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-08-01   11:56:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm up to my ears in Freemasonry - and I speak with... integrity... when I tell you that there is no suggestion of any conspiracy;

Integrity..

1. possession of firm principles: the quality of possessing and steadfastly adhering to high moral principles or professional standards.

Not to belabor the point but integrity in no way guarantees fact,truth or reality. It means only you are stating what you honestly believe.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-08-01   12:17:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"Funny, how so many pictures of the impact holes all tell the identical story of planes actually hitting the WTC towers."

I followed all the links the author sent as proof of the no plane theory. I was not at all persuaded and there are pages after pages of frame by frame explanations. I just don't see the no plane argument. It's not even debatable. Here is his reply, for those who want to see the "proof" and also, the next installment of the big picture.

Most everyting he has said seems to be in line with the way I understand but, the no plane stuff is out there. Does anyone else see even a tiny bit of no plane proof?

The first hit footage is not faked. But where is the plane ? There is no plane, just a strange looking blob, or several blobs in close formation.

Here is the footage, frame by frame 1/60th of a sec increments. There is no plane.

http://thewebfairy.com/911/missilegate/

In addition, the Naudet footage, although the footage from the day is genuine, is in total a staged snuff movie. The Naudet's knew what was about to go down and staged their footage of the day. The fireman shot is staged.

http://911foreknowledge.com

As to the second hit, the multiple videos actually prove the case. They all approach from different angles and heights. How can one plane be in so many different places at once ?

Haven't properly compiled the link for all the comparisons yet, I'll send it later.

But here's cartoon 175 entering the building. If this is real then so is Jurassic Park, because we saw that on TV too, and the dinosaurs look a whole lot more real than this.

http://thewebfairy.com/911/ghostplane/index.htm

OK, you've read 1984. So you know the double think concept.

I've already told you about the weird exchange with Griffin and Hence which is a good example. That's just the tip of the iceberg of the cult.

After that, Sean McBride went absolutely ballistic on me, saying that Griffin was a great researcher and great hero, and that my "attack" was the lowest I've gone yet and a sure sign that I'm an Israeli agent.

He said pretty much the same about my attack on Jones.

Now this is interesting because Sean also won't endorse either the demolition or that AA 77 did not hit the Pentagon.

So I several times pointed out what Jones and Griffin say about these subjects and asked Sean to state agreement or disagreement. He refused to address it, merely raising his apoplexy levels at each exchange and constantly referring to these guys as heroes - and as I continued to insist on an answer - saying that it didn't matter whether the damn buildings were demolished or whether the damn plane hit the damn building. What mattered was that my attack on these two truth heroes was as disgraceful as anything yet.

To try to get out of the jam he'd got into, he then started frothing that I completely ignore Israel as the perpetrator, which makes me an obvious Israli op - also triumphantly pointing out that some other Aussie who he doesn't like also uses iinet, which he finds *very* suspicious. (iinet is the fourth biggest ISP in Aust.)

Since he was frothing at the mouth about me not pointing the finger at Israel, I then asked if Griffin and Jones point the finger at Israel.

There were several embarrassed silences as I asked the question over and over, finally answer3d by another apoplectic outburst that these constant attacks on two great truth heroes combined with my obvious Israeli sympathies and my no planes work was proof of an Israeli op.

So there's the double think. This guy doesn't agree with a thing that Griffin or Jones say, but they are truth heroes. This is not a one off aberration. This is standard conversation with truthlings. I go through dozens of these exchanges every week.

In the list debate where I recently nailed Jones, the truthlings immediately started screaming that it didn't matter whether it was a demolition and that arguing over it can only divide the movement which has more than enough evidence to show an inside job.

Very strange since for the last year and a half, these very same people have been attacking the no plane evidence, screaming that "only controlled demolition" can expose the truth, that all else is a distraction , and it doesn't matter whether there were any planes because whether true or not, it can only hurt the truth movement.

And then in the blinking of an eye, suddenly demolition didn't matter either.

And going back further, this is the same movement that previously fought against demolition on the basis that it distracted from the stand down evidence, and whether true or not, demolition could not be proved and would only divide and hurt the truth movement.

Since you know your Orwell.

Today

"Demolition doesn't matter. Demolition never did matter."

Yesterday

"Demolition is the *only* issue. Demolition had always been the only issue."

The day before

"Demolition, whether true or not, cannot only hurt the truth movement".

In that exchange with Jones and the list, free fall both proved demolition and did not. Jones both supported it and did not. Demolition was both proven and not proven. It was both critical and of no importance.

All in the same conversation.

And again , this is not an aberration. Almost all of the conversations go like this (which is why my initial response was so terse, for which I again apologize, you just caught me at a very low moment )

In NPH, Griffin busts the silly hijacker story in one chapter, while examining the missed warnings in another chapter, while saying that the air force was stood down to allow AA77 to hit the pentagon in another chapter, while saying that AA77 did not hit the Pentagon in another chapter.

All true.

Now, I very much doubt that it's a coincidence that Griffin is a theologian.

Who better to understand the psychology of religious cults and how to successfully construct one ?

Which is why Griffin is the absolute centre of this flow of insanity.

Whichever truhling you deal with, ranging from those who assert only "intelligence failures" to those who endorse demolition, and no plane hitting the pentagon, Griffin is like a central facilitator to connect them all.

Imagine it as a circle, with Griffin in the centre. Every truthling connects to every other truthling through Griffin.

The Griffin/Rupppert/Hoffman Rabinowitz tangle is a good example.

Lets take them one by one.

Ruppert. Believes in Hijackers and LIHOP. Has relentlessly attacked demolition evidence and Pentagon strike evidence. Described by Griffin as a great hero of the truth movement.

Hoffman. Obsessed with demolition. Never stops denouncing Pentagon strike evidence as deliberate disinformation, and attacks all you endorse it. Except Griffin.

Rabinowitz , ditto to Ruppert, but describes Hoffman as a great researcher, constantly runs messenger Goblin for *both* of them, and absolutely swoons at Griffin's feet, while snarling at Pentagon evidence as disinformation trying to distract from Griffin's research, and from Hoffman's great work on the demolition (which according to Rabinowitz was not a demolition)

Again, this is not an aberration. This is the way the entire movement works.

It is expected and healthy that there will be individual disagreements on specific points of evidence and some combinations of people who don't get on at all. But that's not what we're seeing here. It's double think, triple think, and quadruple think. And Griffin is the glue which holds it all together.

The word "truth" has been newspeaked. Truth is what ever is good for the movement, and adapts its content effortlessly at any time to accomdate the prevailing sense of strategic diretion.

The whole concept of calling yourself a "truth" movement is getting very close to the "ministry of truth" concept.

Try saying "911truth is a pack of lies". "the truth movement is lying"

"The truth movement is nothing to do with truth" "The truth movement's assertions are untrue".

See ? The English language does not contain vocabulary with which to succinctly state an opinion on this group.

You can say "The republicans are liars." "Greenpeace are liars" "Liberals are not telling the truth".

Saying it is one thing and backing it up with argument is another. But an essential ingredient of argument is the ability to state an opening proposition and a conclusion, so that the argument can be defined.

If one removes the vocabulary with which to do this, then it becomes impossible to present the argument in coherent fashion.

The word "truth" has been redefined as that which is asserted by the movement.

This linguistic vandalism is a dead giveaway in itself, as the history of control by the elites is in large measure, a history of continuing linguistic vandalism, an ongoing program of ensuring that language does not contain vocabulary which can be used to argue any view other than that which is pre-ordained.

This is an ongoing situation, as the resistance continually responds with its own linguistic adaptations which the elites then respond to again, in order to shut them down.

Here's an example of a similar technique.

About 10 years ago, when the rush for privatization of public utilities in Australia was at its frenzied height, I saw an interview with a guy pushing privatization of the Sydney water board.

It opened like this.

Interviewer: Why should we privatize the water board ?

Advocate: We believe that govt should get on with govt and let business get on with business.

Let's translate.

The argument is basically about the philosophical question of whether water delivery should be viewed as an obligation of govt to provide a guaranteed service and infrastructure to the entire society out of general tax revenue, or whether it should be viewed as a commodity to be traded on the market.

The interviewer is asking the advocate why water delivery should be viewed as a business. The answer was "because it's a business".

After that , there is no argument unless you challenge the fundamentals of the language used by the advocate (which of course the interviewer did not do). So there was never any question as to how the debate would pan out.

The very first act of the advocate was to remove any language which can be used to articulate a contrary view.

An excellent book to read on this subject is

"Volatire's bastards" by John Ralston -Saul.

1984 took this concept to new levels of extremity.

Truth is whatever the ministry of truth says.

Truth is whatever the truth movement says.

"Truth is lies" said the ministry.

"Truth is not good for the truth movement" says the truth movement.

We also see the revisionism.

Oceania was at war with East Asia. Oceania had always been at war with east asia.

The demolition as proved by Jones is the only issue. It has always been the only issue.

And the double think.

AA 77 never hit the pentagon *and* they stood down the airforce to let it happen *and* there weren't any Arab hijackers *and* they ignored warnings about them, and they remotely controlled the plane which did/did not (strike out whichever is not applicable) hit the pentagon"

All of this was discovered by his royal truthliness, Griffin.

Chant his name and you are shouting truth.

And we have the "how many fingers am I holding up Winston ? "

I recently encountered an argument that the video of cartoon 175 entering the building looked so obviously fake that it was clearly not a fake , because if it was, they would have done something which looked more realistic. And that "blobs 11" looked so unlike a plane that it clearly was one because if it wasn't then they would have CGId a plane into the footage to make it look more like a plane than it does.

In the very same email, the writer than claimed about two paragraphs later that the naudet footage clearly showed what was unmistakably a large passenger jet hitting the building.

The same person had previously argued in favour of AA77 hitting the pentagon, disputing that a solid object cannot pass through another solid object without making a hole at least as big as itself, because planes are made of a soft material like butter and that if you throw a butter stick at a hard object like a piece of plastic ,it will punch a small hole and squeeze through like toothpaste, thus explaining the small hole at the pentagon.

Then later this person argued in favour of the WTC planes on the basis that planes are made of "extremely hard aluminum alloy" which will easily punch through anything.

"What kind of plane is it Winston ?"

Adolf Hitler... "What luck for rulers that men do not think."

John F. Kennedy... "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

wakeup  posted on  2006-08-01   12:20:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The three exist almost invisibly to the general public and for the purpose of keeping everyone confused as to ... who dunnit.

I bumped into this piece recently, and is worth a read in it's fullness. Excerpting truly reduces the context to an unacceptable level, but allow me to post a snippet.

Papal Condemnations of Freemasonry

Excerpt:

Moreover the Papacy and Judeo-Masonry are both so fully conscious of the diametrically opposed parts that they are playing that they assume that from it must issue the political, economic, intellectual and religious future of individuals as well as of nations. It is a fact and the better proof of it is their irreducible antagonism toward each other.

What is, indeed, Judeo-Masonry today if not the concentration and mobilization of all evil forces? This Sect with its threefold claim of being Counter-Church (against the Church), Counter-State (against the State) and Counter-Morality (against traditional morality) takes pride in being above all and for all times the enemy of the Catholic Church;[snip]

This abyss of all errors (Abyssus Errorum) is justly compared to the "abysmal well' mentioned in Revelation (abyssus putei, ix, 1-3 ), whose emanations darken the light of the sun and poison the air. It is this accursed Sect whose perversion was stigmatized by Pope Pius IX when he named it: "The Synagogue of Satan." Due to its enormous extension and its nowadays very visible collusion with International Jewish Finance, Freemasonry has indeed become the "Synagogue of Satan." As such it provided funds for the Russian revolution, installed in Moscow; it carried Communism from East to West, took up the leadership of States of their governments, their various administration departments or ministries, and of their parliaments and, in consequence, it is such a world power that for any discerning mind, it seems as though, today, there are on earth only two great powers, viz.: Judeo-Masonry in the service of World Jewry and the Church in the hands of Peter's successor. Those two powers are at war, face to face as though fighting an endless duel, as is clearly expressed in the stone inscription of the Masonic Grand Orient and Supreme Council of France: "The fight taking place between Catholicism and Freemasonry is a fight to the very death, ceaseless and merciless." (Bulletin of the Grand Orient of France P. 183. 1892 and in memorandum of the Supreme Council No. 85, page 48. )

~end snip~

I invite others to read the full text. Like many, I am seeking to understand the magnitude of what is happening.

jessejane  posted on  2006-08-01   12:32:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

" And the double think.

AA 77 never hit the pentagon *and* they stood down the airforce to let it happen *and* there weren't any Arab hijackers *and* they ignored warnings about them, and they remotely controlled the plane which did/did not (strike out whichever is not applicable) hit the pentagon"

All of this was discovered by his royal truthliness, Griffin.

Chant his name and you are shouting truth.

And we have the "how many fingers am I holding up Winston ? "

Well, he sure makes a good point, don't you think? How have I missed this before? hmmmm I'm not as smart as my Mother says.

Adolf Hitler... "What luck for rulers that men do not think."

John F. Kennedy... "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

wakeup  posted on  2006-08-01   12:36:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They say that the devil's best defense is that no one believes he exists...

Truthseeker

loner  posted on  2006-08-01   12:48:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"What kind of plane is it Winston ?"

Wonderful post!

Tauzero  posted on  2006-08-01   12:48:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

As for what kind of planes hit the WTC, or if there were even planes etc does not matter, what matters is that the Bush administration is responsible for high treason and if they are not brought down they are going to take us down, all of us, even questionable types like this Vic Thorn, paid informant.

Truthseeker

loner  posted on  2006-08-01   12:58:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"Truth" is about to become a religion. And truth will be anything which says "we were lied to".

Paging Mr. Pilate.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-08-01   13:03:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"...what matters is that the Bush administration is responsible for high treason and if they are not brought down they are going to take us down..."

Which one will convince the sheeple: 911, the police state or sending weapons to Israel the other day.

Adolf Hitler... "What luck for rulers that men do not think."

John F. Kennedy... "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

wakeup  posted on  2006-08-01   13:12:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Your efforts to look for a pattern of duplicity are commendable. Don't forget that people are imperfect and our ideas are still developing. If there is a real pattern to steer discussion in a way that is illogical except for a specific agenda, then it should be noted. But too much of this w/o good evidence, just leaves everyone not knowing what to believe.

Those who would like to deceive truthseekers would also like to confuse us and have us shadow boxing while they create as much infighting as possible.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-08-01   13:18:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I am seeking to understand the magnitude of what is happening.

We're all in the same boat (up the creek is closer to accurate actually) ... the first thing we all must do is forget everything we "think" we know, and begin to question everything we're being "fed".

Verify !

In a June, 1992 exclusive and published interview granted by President George H. W. Bush to Sarah McClendon, the grand dame of the White House press corps at the time, McClendon said: "George Bush, what will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George Bush replied: 'Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us.' "

It won't be long before Americans learn that Bush was intimately involved in the Nov. 22, 1963 coup that forever changed America into Fascist Amerika !

noone222  posted on  2006-08-01   13:22:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The Illuminati died in 1785, with no evidence of its survival; barring raw ignorance and cheap innuendo. Other than the wishful thinking of Adam Weishaupt, there never ewas any significant connection between the Craft and the Illuminati.

If you've got anything factual, let's hear it. Please don't cast BS as 'fact.'

The Skull and Bones (Illuminati) / CIA / Jesuit relationship is quasi-homo it's so close ... maybe you should do a little reading ... it's often easy to overlook something when you don't really want to see it.

I'd agree that most masons know nothing about the illuminati, most Catholics nothing about P2 or Knights of Malta, and Jews know nothing of their own almud or International Bankers ... however, that doesn't preclude a society within a secret society that does know.

Adam Weishaupt himself was a Jew, a Jesuit and an Illuminatus ... these societies do accept some morons within their ranks to provide cover !

In a June, 1992 exclusive and published interview granted by President George H. W. Bush to Sarah McClendon, the grand dame of the White House press corps at the time, McClendon said: "George Bush, what will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George Bush replied: 'Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us.' "

It won't be long before Americans learn that Bush was intimately involved in the Nov. 22, 1963 coup that forever changed America into Fascist Amerika !

noone222  posted on  2006-08-01   13:34:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

We're all in the same boat (up the creek is closer to accurate actually)

That's whats confusing about the vicious attacks of those TRYING to verify one way or another. We *are* on the same boat, and somehow the rats think they will be allowed to jump ship and swim to safety when the poison is being administered by their keepers. I see them as Cheerleaders for Cancer. The speed at which is spreads, is never fast enough for them.

jessejane  posted on  2006-08-01   13:50:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I would say all of the above. Everytime we have a revealing situation like the slaughter at Qana more and more folks wake up. Question is it enough waking up fast enough?

Truthseeker

loner  posted on  2006-08-01   14:34:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I've looked for flaws in the WTC impacts, but can only find "...what terrorists" as the sole issue of truth. Those were not wannabe Arab pilots - add whomever landed the other two (backup) planes; wherever they ended up.

Between the impact punch-outs and the volume of burning fuel, I don't know why anyone rational argues "...no planes" at the WTC. The distortions of the radically blown up videotape don't certify anything worth talking about, in my book. There is some intelligence to be gathered from the blow-ups, but nothing on the order of the plans 'morphing' into the buildings - add the engine factually landing on the street, etc.

We're to believe that no airplanes hit the WTC and that airplanes DID hit the Pentagon? OKAY!

Chaotic information makes for one hell of an intellectual smoke screen.

Just ".....eliminate the impossible..." - the truth is out there; close at hand.

SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-08-01   14:40:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I agree.

Adolf Hitler... "What luck for rulers that men do not think."

John F. Kennedy... "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

wakeup  posted on  2006-08-01   14:57:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Chaotic information makes for one hell of an intellectual smoke screen.

Just ".....eliminate the impossible..." - the truth is out there; close at hand.

well said

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-08-01   15:46:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The speed at which is spreads, is never fast enough for them.

The speed is increasing exponentially as of late ... and if it weren't a conspiracy "they" would occasionally make a mistake in our favor ... they don't !

Let's give Mel a Mega-Phone, a Bottle of Scotch, and a 50 Cal.

noone222  posted on  2006-08-02   7:55:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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