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Title: The "Rapture" Business -- Part Two
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Published: Aug 14, 2006
Author: Enderby
Post Date: 2006-08-14 22:09:58 by Enderby
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Views: 2520
Comments: 146
I was involved, the other day, in another thread here at Freedom4um, in which the discussion turned to the question of whether "the rapture" is a Biblically-supported concept. After exchanging a post or two with Yertle Turtle and Zipporah, I began to wonder whether we were all working from the same definition of "rapture." Having done some reading, I still think that's the problem (definitional differences, that is). 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 says (NASB translation, emphasis added by me): For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. The term "rapture" cames from the Latin verb raptus, meaning "to seize, catch, or carry away." The same verb supplies the root of the name of a whole category of birds that get their groceries in this way: "raptors" are eagles, hawks, buzzards, condors, and so on. If we take "rapture" to mean simply a catching-up from above (which, since I am a simple-minded person, is how I understand the term), I don't think there can be much dispute about whether living believers will be removed from the earth's surface and drawn to the Lord, following the general resurrection of the believing dead. I gather, however, from the reading to which Zipporah was kind enough to provide a link, that others have added to that meaning. I am reproducing the text from that link here, and interjecting some comments in italic font. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Does the Bible teach the "Rapture"? By Donald Hochner There are many Christians today who would love to be able to escape the troubles of this world. They believe that the Church will be "raptured" just before the great tribulation or the destruction of this world, depending on which "futurist" view you hold to. However, this kind of "escapism" is not taught in Scriptures. "Rapture," "futurism," and "escapism" haven't been defined yet -- nor will they be in the rest of Mr. Hochner's essay. And that's not good. Also there is no guarantee in Scriptures that would lead us to believe that the Church will be "caught up" in order to avoid suffering or persecutions because Jesus prayed that the Father would "not to take them (elect) out of the world, but to keep them from evil one" (John 17:15). But what if there was some other reason for a catching-up? I agree with Mr. Hochner that the church is not promised immunity from suffering and persecution. Indeed, the New Testament is pretty well filled with promises to the contrary: promises that were already being made good for the savagely-persecuted first century church. Also, I think Mr. Hochner is stealing a base by putting that parenthetical "elect" after "them" in John 17:15. As usual, context is everything; this is right in the middle of a chapters-long discourse by Jesus to his twelve disciples at the Last Supper, and the "them" absolutely refers to those disciples. What is said may apply also to believers in general, and it may not ... but the plain and direct meaning of the text is not to be casually "blown off" with a single word in parentheses. Besides, when Jesus says He's not praying for His disciples to be taken out of the world right then, that obviously does not mean that they will never be taken out of the world in any way, at any time. Every one of them died, as have all believers that I know of since then, apart from the small minority of us who are alive today -- and I'm old enough now that I can sort of see my opportunity to sneak off by way of the grave coming up, too. The "rapture" theme is the most popular and well-known subject among evangelical Christianity. Most believe (I once did) that we will "zoom" up to meet with Christ in the air without experiencing physical death or have our faith tested, to see whether it be real or not. They usually refer the passages in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 as their proof text. But I believe they have taken these verses out of context. Most futurist's views have fallen short in their failure to properly take into account the historical-grammatical and cultural context of the prophecies; specifically what they meant to their first century audience. In order to understand the passage in 1 Thes. 4:13-18, we must understand the overall view of this epistle by Paul and the NT writers before we come to any conclusion. These passages will be our anchor for this brief study. We cannot look at all the instances for this would be time consuming, and the space required would be prohibitive. You may be able to discern more of the meaning after reading what I have written. Of course, we must go back into the beginning of this epistle of 1 Thessalonians. It was Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy's greeting to the church of the Thessalonians in the first century (about AD 50's). Anytime you see the word "we", it means Paul, Silvanus, Timothy, and the brethren in their time, not to us as the readers in the present time. Keep in mind that the NT was written for us, not to us. Very true ... and Mr. Hochner might have wanted to keep that in mind himself, when he inserted his personal assumption into John 17:15, as I noted above. Paul wrote in this epistle, that they were "in much tribulation" (1:6). They had already "suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amid much opposition" (2:2). From what quarter was the persecution? It was from the apostate Jews. This can be found in this epistle: "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the Prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost" (2:14-16). Does the phase "fill up the measure of their sins" in verse 16 ring a bell? Yes it does. This can be found in Matt. 23: "Consequently you bear witness against yourself, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zecheriah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things shall be upon this generation" (vv. 31-36). We must remember the context in which those words were spoken. Jesus told the scribes and the Pharisees "Behold, your house [temple] being left to you desolate!" in their generation (vv. 36, 38). Either we have to say it is all future (and make Jesus a liar for saying any of it would occur in that generation), or make it all fulfilled at AD 70 (and preserve the integrity of Jesus). Also there is another connection in James 5: "Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and put death the righteous man; he does not resist you" (vv. 1-6). James was the leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. He warns the apostate Jews to turn into the Lord, otherwise they'll face the wrath of God because they were living in the last days of the Old Covenant system. We know that the temple and the Old Covenant system was burned by fire during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Obviously, the word "you" was referring to the Jewish people in the first century, to which James was speaking, and not to us. Read the next few verses: "Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rain. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; Behold, the judge is standing at the door" (James 5:7-9). Lastly this also can be found in Rev. 18: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying 'Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues, for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities" (vv. 4-5). Who is this harlot, Babylon the great? Most in the futurist camp would say Rome, the future apostate Christianity. Not quite! The Bible has the answer as to the identity of the great city referred to. Rev. 11:8 says the great city (see Rev. 14:8; 16:19; 17:1, 18; 18:2) which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified. It was Jerusalem, without a doubt. The harlot was apostate Israel because of her rejection of the Son of God. Before Christ died on the cross, the Jewish people cried and "prophesied" against themselves saying: "His blood be on us and on our children" (Matt. 27:25). They didn't realize what they were saying, as after 40 years (a generation) later God was accomplishing all things as the OT and the NT had predicted (Luke 21:22, 32). In addition, what about the phase "wrath has come upon them (apostate Jews) to the utmost" in same verse in 1 Thes. 2:16? Paul even mentioned this two other times in this epistle: "And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10). "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes. 5:9). This also can be found in Matthew 3 when John the Baptist warns to the Jews: "But when he (John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers (see also in Matt. 23), who warned you to flee from the wrath [about] to come?" ...And, "the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire". ...And, "His (Jesus) winning fork is in His hand, and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (vv. 7, 10,12). Obviously, John the Baptist was warning the apostate Jewish people. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians not to be disturbed by these afflictions because they believed that God had destined them for this and it came to pass (1 Thes. 3:3-4, 7). They knew it was according to God's purpose predestined to occur. Note that Paul was saying that the Lord "may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the *coming* of our Lord Jesus with all His saints (1 Thes. 3:13). The word "coming" is very important and we cannot overlook this one. The Greek word for "coming" is parousia. It is mentioned 17 times reference to the coming of Christ, four of them in this epistle (1 Thes. 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23). If you are a futurist, whether you are Premill, Postmill, or Amill: how many "comings" do you believe will occur? I have to interrupt at this point to complain about the jargon. "If you are a futurist," he says ... how am I supposed to know whether he's talking to me or not? He keeps using these terms without defining them. "Premill, Postmill, or Amill" ... not only not defined, but he can't even be bothered to spell them out. From my experience (I was one of them), futurists believe there are two or more "comings" of Christ whether they realize or not. Let me explain what I mean. If you are a pretribulation Premill (or a Dispensationalist), there are three different comings of Christ in the future. You may say, "No way!" I'll show you what I mean with the Greek word "parousia" in these passages: 1. The second coming of Christ in the pretribulation rapture: *1 Thes. 2:19 *1 Thes. 3:13 *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *2 Thes. 2:1 (see below after 7 years of great tribulation) *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28 2. The third coming of Christ after 7 years of great tribulation: *Matt. 24:27-31, 37-39 *2 Thes. 2:8 3. The fourth coming of Christ after 1,000 years *1 Cor. 15:23-24 (most aren't sure of this) *2 Peter 3:10-13 So, they believe there are three comings of Christ in the future. Would you agree with that? Does the Bible teach that? I have shown this to some futurist brethren, and their eyes didn't even blink! They were speechless. As for the moderate or "inconsistent" preterist (Postmill or Amill), they believe two "comings" of Christ, one in AD 70 to judge Israel; but the literal, final coming of Christ is still in the future according to their creeds or the traditions of men. I'll show you: 1. In AD 70: *Matt. 24:27-31 (some are sure about vv. 37-39) *2 Thes. 2:1 *2 Thes. 2:8 *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28 2. In the future: *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *1 Cor. 15:23-25 *2 Peter 3:10-13 Look closely for the futurist's theological gymnastics here, then ask yourself if the first century brethren would have understood two or more different comings being spoken of using exactly the same Greek word and terminology. If the NT writers understood two or more different comings separated by different periods of time, we would expect them to stop somewhere and explain to this us. Since they did not do that, we must assume the same coming is under consideration. More on that shortly. Tell me, dear reader, if this makes sense to you. Paul writes to the Thessalonians and informs them "to wait for His Son from heaven" who delivers them "from the wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10) even if it did not occur in the first century? Those in the futurist camp would say that there is what has now been an almost 2,000 years gap, because "those things simply didn't happen" when the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in AD 70. I would counter with this: Paul says that they (first-century brethren) should wait for the Son. Would it make sense to inform the first-century brethren to wait for the Son, if His coming was to happen in our time? That would be pointless to the Thessalonians, and it would make Paul's informing them useless, because these men would only come in our time. Now, we'll do a little study on 1 Thes. 4:13-5:11. Please make sure you have the Bible in hand, verifying all that is taught to you (Acts 17:11). This may change the way you view the fulfillment of prophecy, perhaps even the way you view the whole Bible, as it did for me. I believe there is a connection between 1 Thes. 4:15-17, Matt. 24:30-31, 1 Cor. 15:50-5 and Rev. 11:15 as being the same event in AD 70 because of the last "trumpet of God": "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming [parousia] of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15-17). "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, the all the tribes of the earth [land] will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the our winds, from one end of the sky to the other" (Matt. 24:30-31). "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:50-52). "And the seventh (trumpet) angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15 and read vv. 16-19). Also, I think it would be easier for us if we can make a comparison between parallel passages such 1 Thes. 4-5 and Matt 24: 1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16 4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17 7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17 8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2 9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4 10. Unbelievers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3 11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3 12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4 13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7 Do these parallel passages cause your jaw drop to the ground? The conclusion is inescapable that 1 Thes. 4-5 is dealing with exactly same coming, judgment, and resurrection that Matt. 24 is. If we don't relocate this prophecy of Matt. 24 into our future, then it was a prophecy to them, who were there at the Mount of Olives, when Jesus spoke, that is: in "that generation" (Matt. 24:34). We must compare Scriptures with Scriptures to interpret them properly. It does not matter what you or I may think, but what saith the Scripture? I do not care what the "prophecy experts" may say; it is the Word of God, "sola scriptura" that makes the decision for me. The futurists realize that a true analysis of biblical text related to the timing of prophetic events endangers their eschatological position. You might ask, "but doesn't the Bible say that we shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air?" Yes it does, but what does the word "air" means? Is it in our atmosphere or the air we breath? Well, I'm just a simpleminded man, but I would suppose from reading 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that the "air" being referred to here is the kind of "air" that contains "clouds." Now, maybe those "clouds" can be spiritualized away too. But what happened to the exegetical principle that the plain and straightforward meaning of a text is the preferred one? We can compare with other Scriptures in Eph 2:2: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." The word "air" is an another word for heavenly or spiritual realm. Satan was always an opponent of the scheme of the redemption as we can see throughout the Bible. He was (but is no longer) the prince of the power of the air. In Rom. 16:20 Paul says that Satan would be crushed "shortly" (see Gen 3:15). Jesus now has taken over that sphere and rules in the "air" with the saints since the destruction of Jerusalem. If that is the same "air" where the saints were to meet and be gathered, then there is no necessity for us to believe that the rapture gathering and meeting was to be physical and visible either. It was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the ingrafted Gentiles was transformed (and transferred) into Christ's new spiritual Israel (new covenant) when the old fleshly-based (old covenant) was taken away in AD 70. The "gathering together" is the heavenly places in Christ - the spiritual kingdom of God. Satan is no longer around here; he is now in the lake of fire. Also notice what Paul wrote: "By the word of the Lord, thatwe who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord" in both verses 15 & 17 of 1 Thessalonians. They were expecting of an imminent parousia in their lifetime. We need to step back out of our 20th century mindset and stop looking at the NT as if it was written in our generation. Otherwise Paul was mistaken and not an inspired writer. The Bible is inerrant, infallible, and sufficient. As we have seen 1 Thes. 5 cannot be isolated from the context of 1 Thes. 4. 2 Thessalonians cannot be ignored either. In this context (1 Thes. 4:13-5:11) Paul calls this parousia, "the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15) and the "day of the Lord" (1 Thes. 5:2 with numerous passages in the OT and the NT) and says it will be like "a thief in the night" (see Matt. 24:42-44; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 3:3) with "birth pangs" (1 Thes. 5:2-3) in the same event during the first century. The "destruction" of Jerusalem had come upon them in AD 70 (1 Thes. 5:3) from the Roman armies as God's instrument. In conclusion, there is no evidence in the NT that teaches the two comings of Christ in the first century and another one in the future. Also, nowhere is there any mention of a multi-coming of Christ like as the Dispensationalist system claims (parousia or "rapture" before 7 years of tribulation, the parousia after the great tribulation and the parousia at the end of 1,000 years). The word "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible, neither is it taught there. Ah, now where have I heard an "argument" like that before? Why, I believe it was the last time I had a crew of Jehovah's Witnesses in my living room, explaining solemnly that the word "trinity" appears nowhere in Scripture. And they're correct, as far as that goes; it's just that the doctrine of the trinity is supported so extensively by Scripture. I'm always ready to hear a reasoned argument that says I've misunderstood 1 Thessalonians 4, or any other part of the Bible; but I'm short on patience with "the word '[fill in word here]' isn't in the Bible. Mr. Hochner should confine himself to honest arguments. There is no Scriptural support for this kind of dream, and we should reject it outright. This escapist philosophy is pure fiction. We are not taught to escape reality in the Scripture, but rather to face it knowing that God will work all things out for our good (Rom. 8:28-30). Mr. Hochner's argument depends on his attribution of base motives to those who disagree with him: they are "escapist philosophers;" they want to "escape reality." I'm sure that is true of some who disagree with him; I am equally sure it is not true of others. He is our sovereign God and nothing can happen to thwart His plan. To say otherwise is blasphemy to God. Soli Deo Gloria! Donald Hochner = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I don't really have much of a detailed eschatological position. While I am convinced that God is going to wrap up this phase of the story at some point, after two millennia of church history, I guess my feeling is that it's pretty unlikely that it (the conclusion) would happen during my brief lifetime on the planet's surface. I think that the Bible's instructions for Christians are quite plain, are repeated many times, and I don't see that there's anything about the way I should live, or the manner in which I should attempt obedience to my redeemer that depends in any way on the details of how God is going to finalize history. I think that exchanging views about these matters is a fine exercise in logic, reasoning, and scholarship -- as long as the exchange is conducted with respect and charity. Sadly, that's seldom how it's done.
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#106. To: innieway (#104)
Dang it.....I keep forgetting to make mention of different things that you point out that are so true. In this case, it is about the gleanings left over in a field. When we had the ranch in Montana, we had an apple orchard, and we also had a couple of small cherry trees that could outproduce 20 trees! They were amazing little trees. There are only so many ways you can can and freeze and store apples and the cherries. So, always, when we had an idea of what our needs would be we'd put the word out in our small community of about 650 people that people were welcome to come pick apples; the cherry trees we were more selective about who was told in order to prevent 'swarms' descending on them. I had people call to see how the apples were packaged as though we had already picked them! I had people say they'd come, and never show up. We had neighbors who didn't know how to raise a small garden, and the two of them would always invite others to share in the bounty. So far as I know, hubby and I were the only ones that ever went over--her own kids wouldn't even come down and pick produce! And in northern Californicate, my grandparents used to go to orchards and pick when the owners allowed individuals to. They also used to pick wild berries. But they could never find friends that would want to go along and pick some for making jellies and jams.....but they always came round after Grandma had preserved jars and jars of it...and her specialty of cinnamon pear preserves. People have certainly changed. They'd rather go to food banks, soup kitchens, government food stamps and the like.
Gosh, innieway, I don't see where any of those things you are doing are WRONG. It's just that we should never, as rowdee said, lose sight of the fact that none of us can ever keep the law perfectly, and that is why Jesus came to redeem us. God looked down and said NONE are righteous, no not one. Being a perfectly Holy God, He had to have holy creatures. Knowing we are only flesh and blood, he knew we'd never make it. So He came down, lived a perfect life, and went up on that cross in place of us, so that if we believed in Him as our Saviour, and then repented and turned our life over to Him, and began to walk His walk, we would be deemed righteous in His eyes, and we would have eternal life ["foolishness unto the Greeks, and a stumblingblock to the Jews"]. But the most important thing is FAITH. In the Old Testament, God said I will set a plumbline among my people Israel. The plumbline is the cross. The unrepentant thief on one side represents all those who reject Christ, and will not have eternal life. [ For those who have never heard of Christ, I believe there are other passages that cover them. Without looking it up, "If the Gentiles do without knowing the law, what is good and right...." --waaay paraphrasing, and "He will have mercy on those who have mercy" and Psalm 136, 26 verses, each one ending in "his mercy endureth forever". But for those who have heard, and still reject Him, don't bank your eternal life on that.] The other thief represents all those who heard, and have believed, That poor sinner probably had not obeyed God's law, and He sure didn't have time to obey the law from HIS cross, yet because of his faith, Jesus told him He would reside in paradise. Here's a website you might enjoy. I do not agree with everything at this site, either [particularly on his take that the "founders" were Christians], but the webmaster [he calls himself a "Christian anarchist", albeit a PEACEFUL one], has interesting ideas on how to return to a world under God's law. He studied to be an attorney but they failed him, I think, when he refused to take the oath, the taking of which he said was contrary to God's law. VERY excellent site. A good jumping off point: A World Without "The State" http://home.aol.com/v ftfiles/Directory/5a_state.htm
And my Bible is so marked up and high-lighted -- well, at least l of them is-- that I'd be pretty challenged to 'flip through', and it doesn't have Strongs or other references. And to go thru the shorthand tablets used in my study time-- whew! I think the last one was numbered 26! Have you tried all the search helps at http://blueletterbible.org? I got a "crash course" in the Bible, mainly by hitting the letter "k" [for Treasury of Scripture Knowledge] next to a verse I wanted to know more about. They will give you passages from the Old Testament through the New that are related to it, kind of like taking a walk through history for each verse, and you can link to more TSK's from there, and so on and so on. For example, here is the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge for Isaiah 9:6: Isa 9:6 — For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Isa/9/6.html After you have read those, scroll down to the section under "his name", and see this verse: Jdg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it [is] secret? This is why you need the concordance, because "secret" does not mean "secret", and this is one of the Masonic conspiracies I am aware of in the KJV. I suspect this verse will have something to do with the "ineffable name" of Freemasonry, because the correct translation is not "secret", but "WONDERFUL", as it is in most of the other versions [hit "V" for other versions, translations.] Secrecy is one of the trademarks of the tribe of Dan; see Judges 18:19. 'nuff said. Here's the TSK for that verse: "secret "or, wonderful. It was because his name was secret that Manoah wished to know it. But the angel does not say it was secret, but hoo pailee, ""it is wonderful;"" the very character given to the Messiah: ""His name shall be called pailai, Wonderful,"" Isa 9:6." http://www.blueletter bible.org/tsk_b/Jdg/13/18.html It won't be long, and you will be thinking of verses to add to the ones given. If you hit the letter "C" it will give you the concordance to look up each word or phrase in a verse. "L" will give you choices of commentaries on each chapter. My favorites are JF&B and Matthew Henry. [BLB appears to have added some new helps on the right of the page, and I don't know if it is just me, but I find the box for the selections now is real short, and I can't see much of what's there. Hope that's just a bug they will work out soon.] Those are the three Bible helps I use the most. In addition, "I" stands for Image or Map....like this map of early Israel [I thought noone222 might be interested in this, in case he didn't already have it]: The World as Known to the Hebrews (map) (According to the Mosaic Account) Historical Textbook and Atlas of Biblical Geography (1854) by Coleman http://www.bl ueletterbible.org/images/maps/Otest/world.html Seriously, I got a crash course on what I think are the most relevant parts of the Bible for today, using those three helps: Treasury of Scripture Knowledge [#1 on my list, by far], the Concordance, and the Bible Commentaries. You already know tons. You'll be an expert in no time. BTW, some of the verses link to hymns. Since I couldn't read the box for Isaiah 9:6, I just went to the index, and picked out one of my favorites: Battle Hymn of the Republic http://www.blueletterbible.org/hymns/htm_b_h_bhymnotr.html I don't have sound on my computer anymore, but if I did, I would be playing this non-stop in the background. Oh! And NO RAPTURE there, either!
If I could add one more suggestion, I'd say to read this. There's an education to be had in the index alone! Dialogue of Justin Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew
Thanks for bringing this up, All...... I have 2 others set up on my computer, not to mention tons of sources and research links bookmarked. Until I'm at a place in my life where my office can be set up where I can do a real spread out and being able to base it around the computer, I have to continue using the kitchen table where I can spread out (and have handy other reference materials, including Bibles) a couple of Bibles, a couple of commentaries, and a dictionary, and a special commentary written by a former missionary with whom I've corresponded--he also did a dictionary which I've found helpful. And, of course, my tablet, pens, high liters, and the old proverbial cup of coffee, or perhaps ice water. Oh and a book of charts and maps. It's slow and laborious, but for the first time I feel like I really am getting a good grasp on the scriptures of the O/T. And now, I'm just prepping to tackle the N/T. In this space of time, I've learned so much more and am seeing even more thru wider opened eyes, so I'll be back into the O/t. I do believe that everytime you read and reread scripture, you gain a better understanding...that is, if you're doing it the right way, i.e., to enhance your walk with Him. Part of my problem, too, is dealing with lots of windows, or multi- tasking....my brain doesn't absorb this very well. Plain and simple, it seems I can't walk and chew gum at the same time! :( I really have to have the hands on 'writing' to sort of din it into my brain. My eyes tend to take in too fast, or whatever, and I'm seeing a jumbled up confusing mess, and then I try to offset that by shutting down.......one of the few things I've been known to say that I actually hate is windoze. This provides me much in the way of frustration seeing as how I graduated high school with High Honors--just missing the 4.0 GPA. Thanks though, and in my 'spare' time I do look around and I have a number of urls from blueletter marked as 'favorites' so I can return and 'chew on them' a bit.
Did you know there is a New Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge coming out? I think the editor's name if Jeffrey or Jeremy Smith...or something like that. And IIRC, it's also going to be on CD. IT's on my list of resources to acquire, for sure.
That is one (ccel) of the sites I have bookmarked and have been going to. Eventually, I will have every one of sources read....whether it is on the net or thru acquiring a hard copy, i.e., I have a copy of Josephus already.
I just clicked on the blue letter hot link in your response. And started cracking up............ I see where they have added Dr. J Vernon McGee's Thru The Bible Commentaries on the OT and NT. I have his 5 volume set and he is one of the commentarians I've been using.....not because I have such high regard (I scarce know much about the man) but I wanted more than l commentary to help develop my sense of what scripture says--not that I am going to accept either one of them as 'it'. Anyways, poor J Vernon!!!! You should see his books as well as notes I've made to myself in my steno pads! I argue with him--a lot--or should I say debate. I've even found some contradictions, I'm sad to say. But I knew all this was possible going into using any of the commentaries; and perhaps that's why I study with a built-in guard meter. The other commentary I've been using I am fully aware of where most of the commentarians are coming from and again, the guard meter is on high alert.
Man, your computer sucks ! Thanks for the info about the blue letter Bible.
"interdum vulgus rectum videt" Sometimes the rabble see what is right.
Not to mention "rape".
My step MIL believes exactly that, and all the Chinese, Africans etc, who have never so much as heard the gospel are to be hurled howling into Hell for an infinity of extreme pain. Then G-d will be happy. Man, he sure showed them!!
I used to listen to J Vernon McGee. He was fun too.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers His pic makes him appear to be a likeable person. I don't know that his looks would suggest funny, but I sure find it funny to be arguing with a damned book! I'm serious---I've got all sorts of notes written in blank spaces covering the various chapters of each book. And when he was right on, or what I thought was right on, I'd comment like 'right!' or "amen" or something like that!! My daughter who will inherit all my books will have a blast, I'm sure, thinking she's found confirmation that I was plain nuts!
At the end of his radio program he would read letters from listeners. On a few occasions, he had complaints about his strong Texas accent. He would say that they should get used to it, because that's what everyone will talk like in heaven!
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers Thats funny.
It sounds like you are well-prepared for study. I have several Bibles, too. Most are KJV, which is my favorite, even though I know of a few of the DELIBERATE mistranslations in it., like sometimes changing "Zion" to "Sion", two totally different entities. Some of those are reference Bibles, which indicate related passages in the margins. I have found those very helpful too, except that it's like with BLB. I start looking up the references to other passages, which in turn have references to OTHER passages, and before too long, I forget where I started, which is okay too, because I am always content with whatever new things I discover. And yes, everytime I read the Bible, I learn more. Sometimes, I will read a passage I am very familiar with, and think I know all there is to know about it, and suddenly another light goes on, and I see something new. The Bible is such an amazing book. Once you really get into it, you begin to see God's plan, and are totally amazed that He knew all these things that would happen hundreds if not thousands of years before they occurred. But then I guess that is why He is God. It sure cleared up any doubts I may ever have had about God's existence. Did you know there is a New Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge coming out? I think the editor's name if Jeffrey or Jeremy Smith...or something like that. And IIRC, it's also going to be on CD. IT's on my list of resources to acquire, for sure. I don't know anything about that, or the author. I would be very interested in seeing it. However, I am also going to be more wary from now on. I need to go back to those articles I linked to from http://watch.pair.com, and read them in their entirety. As I said, the Wolves have entered the Sheepfold, for the purpose of destroying it. Remember what Cornwallis said to George Washington: "A holy war will now begin against America....In two hundred years, her churches will be teaching the Jews' religion..." http://[sweetliberty.org] I don't mean to cast dispersion on this new TSK, but I read another disturbing article at Carol Valentine's site, that reminded me that we are to be wise as serpents: Excerpt: "....Jesus followers feared the political power of the Pharisees more than the Romans. Yet the word Pharisee is pointedly ignored by most Christian leaders and all but forgotten in modern evangelical Christendom and the ranks of the celebrity media broadcasters. "Pharisee" may also be the most avoided word found in the Bible. Some pastors and most televangelists are capable of preaching the year through without ever mentioning Pharisee, except in passing by on the way to some other point. Pharisees are wrongly treated as an extinct and irrelevant species. Organized Bible study courses rarely mention whom the Pharisees were, why Jesus pronounced upon them so harshly and never treat the Pharisee as an anti-Christ type to watch out for in our day. Celebrity Christians on national TV never suggest that the Pharisee's war on Jesus has anything at all to do with His followers, or that the sect may have survived to this day. CENSORSHIP IN THE CHURCH The word Pharisee has not yet been removed from any Bibles we know of, but most Bible commentaries and concordances avoid any serious treatment of how they operate to control civil government, and who their successors are today. For instance, the concordance in the new Thompson Study Bible, a very popular one that is supposedly designed to help readers understand the scriptures, has all but eliminated any mention of this sect. Amazingly, Thompson new edition concordance lists only one of the 78 sites, yet its previous 1962 edition listed four. Pray tell, what happened to the other three verses it previously recognized, not to mention 74 never cited at all, The four references cited are atypically favorable having to do with Paul's own Pharisaic history. It appears the publisher is whitewashing the word and deleting "Pharisee" from its readers' vocabularies. This is unthinkable because Jesus denounced the Pharisees, the most powerful and destructive faction of anti-Christianity calling them a "generation of vipers" and "sons of Satan." But most study Bibles and Bible courses omit all but casual mention of Pharisees. Curiously, the much-maligned paraphrase Living Bible Concordance contains the key sites found in Strongs, and is well worth reading. TODAYS PHARISEES Let us examine what has become of the Pharisees in our modern society and how they continue to attempt to control our lives. The New Testament tells us they controlled Judea at the time of Jesus' mission. Pharisees, both Christian professing and Jewish, control Palestine again today with unimaginable brutality. Needless to say, we do not think Pharisees have gone away; else they would not be tampering with our beliefs. Nor did Webster think they had gone away, as he says in his 1950 definition that Pharisaism became modern Judaism. The venerable traditionally Christian Webster is not the only one to say this? Proper definitions are taken from correct and proper usage of that less censored age. Many Rabbis have proudly provided the rabbinical sources for Webster's definition. The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1943, state: "The Jewish Religion as it is today traces it descent without a break from the Pharisees- their ideas and methods are found in the Talmud." And Rabbi Louis Finklestein, head of the Jewish Theological Seminary, stated in his book "History of the Jews" 1949,"Pharisaism became talmudist...the spirit of the ancient Pharisees survived unaltered ...therefore any discourse regarding the Jewish religion must be based on Talmudism." Jewish leaders were in the 1950s obviously were proud of their claim to be Pharisees....." http://www.public- action.com/911/chrzion.html That is one (ccel) of the sites I have bookmarked and have been going to. That one to me is amazing. Pay close attention to what Justin says about the "old man" he met. Remember Ezekiel 34 where God said "I, even I will search out my lost sheep", the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus said later, "There are others who are not of this fold. Them, too, I must bring." Remember what He said, "I stand at the door and knock...." Justin was looking for meaning and God in all the wrong places. When he had exhausted all those avenues, he met the "old man", who said "Do you know me?" The "old man" said he was looking for some of his "household who had gone away from him". He also knew the mind of the animals. I believe the "old man" was Jesus, come back looking for more of His lost sheep. I think that is why Justin came away with such an astounding understanding of scripture. That's why I am nudging you to read it :) It goes along with a lot of the rest of this thread. One of the titles in the Index is Christians are the Seed Promised to Abraham [or something like that. I have too much stuff on here to pull it up]. He also confronted Trypho with the fact that the Jews had already censored parts of the scripture, in particular a couple of passages that prophecied of Israel being saved "from the wood", meaning the cross. It really helped me understand the Bible a lot better. So, when you get a chance.......
When the study helps have been infiltrated, it's time to throw them away. KJV has errors as you mentioned, but at least you know that translation was free of the current virus.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers You're already "wise as serpents"! Good for you! BTW, can you tell me if the commentaries box is short [about 1 inch on mine], or is it just me. It is useless to me like that. I would have to click on every one to see what they were, and by the time I got to the one I wanted, my computer would probably have crashed.
Whew! You're quick this morning. Well, you MIGHT want to keep them "to know thine enemy". For instance, I have copies of some of the pages from Scofield's Bible, and I have been meaning to take a look at them, to see for myself where they led the church astray. But, your comment is well taken.
I own 2 Scofields and I read MSM. You're right, we need to know the enemy.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers Thanks for all the thoughts, suggestions, and links. I'm also wary of what I'm reading or is being put out there. Just because something is written, or on the net, doesn't mean it is the truth--for sure. BTW, I found where we can get an older Webster's Dictionary (I think it is something like 1840 or 1850ish). I plan to get it because of word definitions and usages having changed so much. IT sure seems like so much organized, or should I say mainstream, church organizaions today are more concerned about getting $$$$$$ rewards for their congregants than about actually teaching Christ and his message. This failure to teach Him and his message is why I do not belong to them.
There is a long box in the center...perhaps the space for 25 characters. To the right, where it says Search The Bible, or Search soemthing, there is about an inch space; HOWEVER, you can start typing and keep typing and the box allows you to continue typing as it keeps moving a space over each stroke. DOes that help?
Speaking of the MSM. The TV was on Charlie Rose yesterday, and while I only came in on the tail end of the first half, I saw him bring on a Christian {?) who has written a book entitled THE MYTH OF A CHRISTIAN NATION. I agreed with some of what he was saying, but then, Charlie Rose asked him about the title, and then he (Charlie Rose) said, something like, "Then the United States is not any more a Christian nation than....[looks down, pauses several long seconds, and I'm saying Spit it out, Charlie, says what's on your mind, say the "J" word, and he looks up and says....]...Jewish?" And the author ridicules the thought, dredging up things such as slavery [see the book on the fact that the Jews were the big slave-traders in America at http://blacksandjews.com (?)], and a few other things which the Jews had a major role in, and I would have to tell the two of them to read the parable of the Kingdom of Heaven and the mustard seed vs. the leaven of the Pharisees, and the parable of the wheat and the tares, and possibly get a clue.
So many lies to tell, so much history to distort, and so many sheeple to lead astray.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers mmmm....I'm not sure it does, and I think where it says search the Bible for words or phrases [if that is what you are talking about], you may only be able to search 5 words at a time, or at least that is the way it used to be, and the words had to be spelled exactly as they appear in the KJV. Nothing like google to come on and say "Did you mean....." But that's okay. Thanks for your effort. It may be I will have to e-mail them if it doesn't clear up.
I agree. While some newer translations may be good, I feel using the KJV is good enough. While I'm convinced the NWO agenda was already well in place in 1611, I also feel they've advanced their "tactics" considerably in the last 400 years. Now if a person could read the original Hebrew and Greek, and had access to the original manuscripts or an exact copy - like Gene Scott was able to do - THAT would be a HUGE advantage.... I kinda got tickled listening to something on George Gordon's archives once. He was answering a listener question concerning something in Scripture, and George said "I always use the KJV. I figure if it was good enough for Moses, it's good enough for me."
Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
lol!
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers LOL! You are such a riot!
Except it really isn't funny! Sometimes I just feel so cynical, and I'm generally a cheerful sort of person. But it's getting more difficult to maintain that natural sanguine energy. Do you notice that what we came to call "Clintonesque" (pot calling kettle black or even worse, projection), really dates back to an earlier tribe?
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers You know, that's something I think too many (particularly younger) folks miss out on realizing - that when searching truth, often it's wiser to get your info from the older texts... School kids these days are really in a predicament. So much has been taken out of their history books (and all text books for that matter), or changed in them that the kids truly don't know truth in a lot of matters. The NWO agenda has taken quite a toll. It's probably our own fault for (once again) not following the Creator's wishes and teaching our children. Instead we adopted the 10th plank of the Communist Manifesto, and went with free education for all children in government schools (although it isn't free)..... Speaking of Communism, Karl Marx stated in Communist Manifesto that the 10 "planks" will test whether a country IS communist or not.. Amerika HAS adopted ALL 10 of them. Sure, we have a different "name" for each, but Communism by any other name???
Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
You're right, and I know exactly what you mean. I don't know if I would say I'm a "cheerful" sort of person, but I used to be a "la-la land" sort of person, and really NICE!!! It has made me cynical too, and most of the time very angry. At the moment, I'm not too riled up. It is indeed very difficult to see what they are doing around the world, and what they have done to us, and still intend to do to us, and NOT be cynical. And the fact that there are still too few of us knowing about it, drives me nuts! I get so angry and resentful of my neighbors and members of my family who scoff at anything I try to tell them. Five years later, and they still don't have a clue!!! about what is going on, that this country and the whole world has been conquered by them. Okay, now I'm starting to get riled up again. Do you notice that what we came to call "Clintonesque" (pot calling kettle black or even worse, projection), really dates back to an earlier tribe? Absolutely. A prime example is their rambling in FINAL WAR FOR JERUSALEM at http://noahide.com. Everybody who crosses them is Amalek, and communist, and evil, in their book. They really ought to look in the mirror once in awhile. They create chaos everywhere they go, and then complain that everyone is "out to get them". Somebody called it "arrested development", which describes it pretty well, too.
Exactly right. Re: the Webster's. I don't know what the date was, but at one point they left out the original 1776 definition of "regulate" as in "well-regulated militia", which meant to be in tune LIKE A CLOCK, or something to that effect, NOT control by the rulers.
Sing it sister! They really ought to look in the mirror once in awhile. They create chaos everywhere they go, and then complain that everyone is "out to get them". Somebody called it "arrested development", which describes it pretty well, too. Yes, yet it isn't all, just the leadership, IMO. Their sheep are being led around just like ours.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers The NWO really has made it impossible not to be cynical, and often difficult to be cheerful....
Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
I keep trying to remind myself of that. That 4um thread Do Zionist Christians Know That Jesus' Name was Changed In Israel [#32521] was a shocker, in a way. It found my heart, buried underneath all that hatred for Talmudism, and touched it. It's that blasted Talmud and the elite inner circle of Satanists that hold the throat of the world. Even Luther was deceived. It wasn't until he read the Talmud, hoping to get some input for his translation of the Bible into German, that he had his eyes opened. He went flippin' nuts over it!!! He said it should be burned. He is still called an "anti-Semite" by the Pharisees today.
And how many Lutherans are aware of his views? Less than 10.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers You're exactly correct about the name change routine........but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, treads water like a duck, you can damn well bet it's a duck though the owner may tell you it's a goose, or a dog, or a jelly donut! God gave us a brain for a reason.........and the brain is inside the head, and not like a bull's nose ring! THat that guy/gal/it yesterday lamenting that non-truth tellers or disseminators should be evicted by the owners because he/she/it doesn't want to be bothered to search thru the sludge to find some nuggets is what most of the church world's attitude is like in these days.
Since you asked, and though you do not trust the Scriptures, others may have the same question. Therefore, you can just skip this if you like: Several things. 1) Not understanding the righteousness of God, ordained in Genesis 3:15 [ http://www.blueletterb ible.org/tsk_b/Gen/3/15.html ] they went about creating their own "righteousness", which was nothing of the sort to God. 2) They were not looking for salvation, they were looking for money, power, control, and Jewish Supremacy, the same things they seek today. 3) Being the spiritual children of the devil, their heart was not right, so God TRICKED them into fulfilling His plan [God often uses evil people to accomplish His purposes]: Mat 13:35 — That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. http://www.blueletter bible.org/tsk_b/Mat/13/35.html Mat 13:14 — And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias [Isaiah], which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias [Isaiah] said again, Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ. http://www.blueletter bible.org/tsk_b/Mat/13/14.html 1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 1Cr 2:8 ***** Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.......
Stop it!! lol. I tried to tell one of my sisters about it a couple of years ago, and she immediately launched into a monologue of how Luther's wife said he later lamented his words.
BTW, she and the rest of my family still think the Jews are the chosen people, because they "know how to read the Bible". I told them to read Isaiah 65:15, and find the part in the New Testament where it says the Jews are the chosen people [it doesn't] and get back to me. I keep hoping something will "take", but after a conversation the day before yesterday, it is obvious, it hasn't.
The problem here is, that you're using more lies to defend a lie. That's been the problem of everyone who tries to debate religion, or Christianity. They use lies to defend more lies. From the dawn of man, to now, religion has been used as a tool to keep the masses in line. It amazes me just how primitive human beings truly are.
#107. To: innieway (#104)
#108. To: rowdee, noone222 (#105)
I believe my years of being able to quote chapter and verse are long past. There can't be enough years left in my lifetime to have a mastery of them.
#109. To: rowdee (#108)
#110. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#108)
#111. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#108)
#112. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#109)
#113. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#108)
#114. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#108)
I don't have sound on my computer anymore, but if I did, I would be playing this non-stop in the background.
#115. To: Enderby (#0)
The term "rapture" cames from the Latin verb raptus, meaning "to seize, catch, or carry away."
#116. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#89)
eah... I'm sure that God had a big plan for that one didn't he. Totally waste all those souls prior to the word of Jesus Christ. God just discarded ALL those people because after all, his word hadn't been written yet. How bout those Chinese people who had their own religions prior to Christianity? Are they all in hell right now? How about the Sumerians? They all in hell? Assyrians? Babylonians? How about all those Jewish people who died prior to the invention of Judaism? Are all those people in hell?
#117. To: rowdee (#113)
#118. To: robin (#117)
#119. To: rowdee (#118)
#120. To: robin (#119)
#121. To: rowdee (#110)
#122. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt, rowdee (#121)
CENSORSHIP IN THE CHURCH The word Pharisee has not yet been removed from any Bibles we know of, but most Bible commentaries and concordances avoid any serious treatment of how they operate to control civil government, and who their successors are today. For instance, the concordance in the new Thompson Study Bible, a very popular one that is supposedly designed to help readers understand the scriptures, has all but eliminated any mention of this sect.
#123. To: rowdee (#113)
I knew all this was possible going into using any of the commentaries; and perhaps that's why I study with a built-in guard meter.
#124. To: robin (#122)
#125. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#124)
#126. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#121)
#127. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#123)
#128. To: robin (#125)
I own 2 Scofields and I read MSM. You're right, we need to know the enemy.
#129. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#128)
#130. To: rowdee (#127)
#131. To: robin (#122)
When the study helps have been infiltrated, it's time to throw them away. KJV has errors as you mentioned, but at least you know that translation was free of the current virus.
#132. To: innieway (#131)
"I always use the KJV. I figure if it was good enough for Moses, it's good enough for me."
#133. To: robin (#129)
#134. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#133)
#135. To: rowdee (#126)
BTW, I found where we can get an older Webster's Dictionary (I think it is something like 1840 or 1850ish). I plan to get it because of word definitions and usages having changed so much.
#136. To: robin (#134)
Except it really isn't funny! Sometimes I just feel so cynical, and I'm generally a cheerful sort of person. But it's getting more difficult to maintain that natural sanguine energy.
#137. To: innieway, rowdee (#135)
#138. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#136)
And the fact that there are still too few of us knowing about it, drives me nuts! I get so angry and resentful of my neighbors and members of my family who scoff at anything I try to tell them. Five years later, and they still don't have a clue!!! about what is going on, that this country and the whole world has been conquered by them.
#139. To: robin (#134)
Sometimes I just feel so cynical, and I'm generally a cheerful sort of person.
#140. To: robin (#138)
Yes, yet it isn't all, just the leadership, IMO. Their sheep are being led around just like ours.
#141. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#140)
It's that blasted Talmud and the elite inner circle of Satanists that hold the throat of the world. Even Luther was deceived. It wasn't until he read the Talmud, hoping to get some input for his translation of the Bible into German, that he had his eyes opened. He went flippin' nuts over it!!! He said it should be burned. He is still called an "anti-Semite" by the Pharisees today.
#142. To: innieway (#135)
#143. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#68)
Why would people of that time, who had a so called foreknowledge of Christ's coming do their damndest to have him killed?
#144. To: robin (#141)
#145. To: robin (#144)
#146. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#143)
 | What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?. |
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