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Title: The "Rapture" Business -- Part Two
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Aug 14, 2006
Author: Enderby
Post Date: 2006-08-14 22:09:58 by Enderby
Keywords: None
Views: 2624
Comments: 146

I was involved, the other day, in another thread here at Freedom4um, in which the discussion turned to the question of whether "the rapture" is a Biblically-supported concept. After exchanging a post or two with Yertle Turtle and Zipporah, I began to wonder whether we were all working from the same definition of "rapture." Having done some reading, I still think that's the problem (definitional differences, that is). 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 says (NASB translation, emphasis added by me): For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The term "rapture" cames from the Latin verb raptus, meaning "to seize, catch, or carry away." The same verb supplies the root of the name of a whole category of birds that get their groceries in this way: "raptors" are eagles, hawks, buzzards, condors, and so on. If we take "rapture" to mean simply a catching-up from above (which, since I am a simple-minded person, is how I understand the term), I don't think there can be much dispute about whether living believers will be removed from the earth's surface and drawn to the Lord, following the general resurrection of the believing dead. I gather, however, from the reading to which Zipporah was kind enough to provide a link, that others have added to that meaning. I am reproducing the text from that link here, and interjecting some comments in italic font.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Does the Bible teach the "Rapture"?

By Donald Hochner

There are many Christians today who would love to be able to escape the troubles of this world. They believe that the Church will be "raptured" just before the great tribulation or the destruction of this world, depending on which "futurist" view you hold to. However, this kind of "escapism" is not taught in Scriptures.

"Rapture," "futurism," and "escapism" haven't been defined yet -- nor will they be in the rest of Mr. Hochner's essay. And that's not good.

Also there is no guarantee in Scriptures that would lead us to believe that the Church will be "caught up" in order to avoid suffering or persecutions because Jesus prayed that the Father would "not to take them (elect) out of the world, but to keep them from evil one" (John 17:15).

But what if there was some other reason for a catching-up? I agree with Mr. Hochner that the church is not promised immunity from suffering and persecution. Indeed, the New Testament is pretty well filled with promises to the contrary: promises that were already being made good for the savagely-persecuted first century church. Also, I think Mr. Hochner is stealing a base by putting that parenthetical "elect" after "them" in John 17:15. As usual, context is everything; this is right in the middle of a chapters-long discourse by Jesus to his twelve disciples at the Last Supper, and the "them" absolutely refers to those disciples. What is said may apply also to believers in general, and it may not ... but the plain and direct meaning of the text is not to be casually "blown off" with a single word in parentheses. Besides, when Jesus says He's not praying for His disciples to be taken out of the world right then, that obviously does not mean that they will never be taken out of the world in any way, at any time. Every one of them died, as have all believers that I know of since then, apart from the small minority of us who are alive today -- and I'm old enough now that I can sort of see my opportunity to sneak off by way of the grave coming up, too.

The "rapture" theme is the most popular and well-known subject among evangelical Christianity. Most believe (I once did) that we will "zoom" up to meet with Christ in the air without experiencing physical death or have our faith tested, to see whether it be real or not. They usually refer the passages in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 as their proof text. But I believe they have taken these verses out of context. Most futurist's views have fallen short in their failure to properly take into account the historical-grammatical and cultural context of the prophecies; specifically what they meant to their first century audience.

In order to understand the passage in 1 Thes. 4:13-18, we must understand the overall view of this epistle by Paul and the NT writers before we come to any conclusion. These passages will be our anchor for this brief study. We cannot look at all the instances for this would be time consuming, and the space required would be prohibitive. You may be able to discern more of the meaning after reading what I have written.

Of course, we must go back into the beginning of this epistle of 1 Thessalonians. It was Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy's greeting to the church of the Thessalonians in the first century (about AD 50's). Anytime you see the word "we", it means Paul, Silvanus, Timothy, and the brethren in their time, not to us as the readers in the present time. Keep in mind that the NT was written for us, not to us.

Very true ... and Mr. Hochner might have wanted to keep that in mind himself, when he inserted his personal assumption into John 17:15, as I noted above.

Paul wrote in this epistle, that they were "in much tribulation" (1:6). They had already "suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amid much opposition" (2:2). From what quarter was the persecution? It was from the apostate Jews. This can be found in this epistle:

"For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the Prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost" (2:14-16).

Does the phase "fill up the measure of their sins" in verse 16 ring a bell? Yes it does. This can be found in Matt. 23:

"Consequently you bear witness against yourself, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zecheriah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things shall be upon this generation" (vv. 31-36).

We must remember the context in which those words were spoken. Jesus told the scribes and the Pharisees "Behold, your house [temple] being left to you desolate!" in their generation (vv. 36, 38). Either we have to say it is all future (and make Jesus a liar for saying any of it would occur in that generation), or make it all fulfilled at AD 70 (and preserve the integrity of Jesus).

Also there is another connection in James 5:

"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and put death the righteous man; he does not resist you" (vv. 1-6).

James was the leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. He warns the apostate Jews to turn into the Lord, otherwise they'll face the wrath of God because they were living in the last days of the Old Covenant system. We know that the temple and the Old Covenant system was burned by fire during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Obviously, the word "you" was referring to the Jewish people in the first century, to which James was speaking, and not to us. Read the next few verses:

"Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rain. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; Behold, the judge is standing at the door" (James 5:7-9).

Lastly this also can be found in Rev. 18:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying 'Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues, for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities" (vv. 4-5).

Who is this harlot, Babylon the great? Most in the futurist camp would say Rome, the future apostate Christianity. Not quite! The Bible has the answer as to the identity of the great city referred to. Rev. 11:8 says the great city (see Rev. 14:8; 16:19; 17:1, 18; 18:2) which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified. It was Jerusalem, without a doubt. The harlot was apostate Israel because of her rejection of the Son of God. Before Christ died on the cross, the Jewish people cried and "prophesied" against themselves saying: "His blood be on us and on our children" (Matt. 27:25). They didn't realize what they were saying, as after 40 years (a generation) later God was accomplishing all things as the OT and the NT had predicted (Luke 21:22, 32).

In addition, what about the phase "wrath has come upon them (apostate Jews) to the utmost" in same verse in 1 Thes. 2:16? Paul even mentioned this two other times in this epistle:

"And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes. 5:9).

This also can be found in Matthew 3 when John the Baptist warns to the Jews:

"But when he (John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers (see also in Matt. 23), who warned you to flee from the wrath [about] to come?"

...And,

"the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire". ...And, "His (Jesus) winning fork is in His hand, and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (vv. 7, 10,12).

Obviously, John the Baptist was warning the apostate Jewish people.

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians not to be disturbed by these afflictions because they believed that God had destined them for this and it came to pass (1 Thes. 3:3-4, 7). They knew it was according to God's purpose predestined to occur.

Note that Paul was saying that the Lord "may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the *coming* of our Lord Jesus with all His saints (1 Thes. 3:13). The word "coming" is very important and we cannot overlook this one. The Greek word for "coming" is parousia. It is mentioned 17 times reference to the coming of Christ, four of them in this epistle (1 Thes. 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23). If you are a futurist, whether you are Premill, Postmill, or Amill: how many "comings" do you believe will occur?

I have to interrupt at this point to complain about the jargon. "If you are a futurist," he says ... how am I supposed to know whether he's talking to me or not? He keeps using these terms without defining them. "Premill, Postmill, or Amill" ... not only not defined, but he can't even be bothered to spell them out.

From my experience (I was one of them), futurists believe there are two or more "comings" of Christ whether they realize or not. Let me explain what I mean. If you are a pretribulation Premill (or a Dispensationalist), there are three different comings of Christ in the future. You may say, "No way!" I'll show you what I mean with the Greek word "parousia" in these passages:

1. The second coming of Christ in the pretribulation rapture: *1 Thes. 2:19 *1 Thes. 3:13 *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *2 Thes. 2:1 (see below after 7 years of great tribulation) *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28

2. The third coming of Christ after 7 years of great tribulation: *Matt. 24:27-31, 37-39 *2 Thes. 2:8

3. The fourth coming of Christ after 1,000 years *1 Cor. 15:23-24 (most aren't sure of this) *2 Peter 3:10-13

So, they believe there are three comings of Christ in the future. Would you agree with that? Does the Bible teach that? I have shown this to some futurist brethren, and their eyes didn't even blink! They were speechless.

As for the moderate or "inconsistent" preterist (Postmill or Amill), they believe two "comings" of Christ, one in AD 70 to judge Israel; but the literal, final coming of Christ is still in the future according to their creeds or the traditions of men. I'll show you:

1. In AD 70: *Matt. 24:27-31 (some are sure about vv. 37-39) *2 Thes. 2:1 *2 Thes. 2:8 *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28

2. In the future: *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *1 Cor. 15:23-25 *2 Peter 3:10-13

Look closely for the futurist's theological gymnastics here, then ask yourself if the first century brethren would have understood two or more different comings being spoken of using exactly the same Greek word and terminology. If the NT writers understood two or more different comings separated by different periods of time, we would expect them to stop somewhere and explain to this us. Since they did not do that, we must assume the same coming is under consideration. More on that shortly.

Tell me, dear reader, if this makes sense to you. Paul writes to the Thessalonians and informs them "to wait for His Son from heaven" who delivers them "from the wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10) even if it did not occur in the first century? Those in the futurist camp would say that there is what has now been an almost 2,000 years gap, because "those things simply didn't happen" when the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in AD 70. I would counter with this: Paul says that they (first-century brethren) should wait for the Son. Would it make sense to inform the first-century brethren to wait for the Son, if His coming was to happen in our time? That would be pointless to the Thessalonians, and it would make Paul's informing them useless, because these men would only come in our time.

Now, we'll do a little study on 1 Thes. 4:13-5:11. Please make sure you have the Bible in hand, verifying all that is taught to you (Acts 17:11).

This may change the way you view the fulfillment of prophecy, perhaps even the way you view the whole Bible, as it did for me.

I believe there is a connection between 1 Thes. 4:15-17, Matt. 24:30-31, 1 Cor. 15:50-5 and Rev. 11:15 as being the same event in AD 70 because of the last "trumpet of God":

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming [parousia] of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15-17).

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, the all the tribes of the earth [land] will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the our winds, from one end of the sky to the other" (Matt. 24:30-31).

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:50-52).

"And the seventh (trumpet) angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15 and read vv. 16-19).

Also, I think it would be easier for us if we can make a comparison between parallel passages such 1 Thes. 4-5 and Matt 24:

1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16 4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17 7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17 8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2 9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4 10. Unbelievers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3 11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3 12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4 13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7

Do these parallel passages cause your jaw drop to the ground? The conclusion is inescapable that 1 Thes. 4-5 is dealing with exactly same coming, judgment, and resurrection that Matt. 24 is.

If we don't relocate this prophecy of Matt. 24 into our future, then it was a prophecy to them, who were there at the Mount of Olives, when Jesus spoke, that is: in "that generation" (Matt. 24:34). We must compare Scriptures with Scriptures to interpret them properly. It does not matter what you or I may think, but what saith the Scripture? I do not care what the "prophecy experts" may say; it is the Word of God, "sola scriptura" that makes the decision for me. The futurists realize that a true analysis of biblical text related to the timing of prophetic events endangers their eschatological position.

You might ask, "but doesn't the Bible say that we shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air?" Yes it does, but what does the word "air" means? Is it in our atmosphere or the air we breath?

Well, I'm just a simpleminded man, but I would suppose from reading 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that the "air" being referred to here is the kind of "air" that contains "clouds." Now, maybe those "clouds" can be spiritualized away too. But what happened to the exegetical principle that the plain and straightforward meaning of a text is the preferred one?

We can compare with other Scriptures in Eph 2:2: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." The word "air" is an another word for heavenly or spiritual realm. Satan was always an opponent of the scheme of the redemption as we can see throughout the Bible. He was (but is no longer) the prince of the power of the air. In Rom. 16:20 Paul says that Satan would be crushed "shortly" (see Gen 3:15). Jesus now has taken over that sphere and rules in the "air" with the saints since the destruction of Jerusalem. If that is the same "air" where the saints were to meet and be gathered, then there is no necessity for us to believe that the rapture gathering and meeting was to be physical and visible either. It was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the ingrafted Gentiles was transformed (and transferred) into Christ's new spiritual Israel (new covenant) when the old fleshly-based (old covenant) was taken away in AD 70. The "gathering together" is the heavenly places in Christ - the spiritual kingdom of God. Satan is no longer around here; he is now in the lake of fire.

Also notice what Paul wrote: "By the word of the Lord, thatwe who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord" in both verses 15 & 17 of 1 Thessalonians. They were expecting of an imminent parousia in their lifetime. We need to step back out of our 20th century mindset and stop looking at the NT as if it was written in our generation. Otherwise Paul was mistaken and not an inspired writer. The Bible is inerrant, infallible, and sufficient.

As we have seen 1 Thes. 5 cannot be isolated from the context of 1 Thes. 4. 2 Thessalonians cannot be ignored either. In this context (1 Thes. 4:13-5:11) Paul calls this parousia, "the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15) and the "day of the Lord" (1 Thes. 5:2 with numerous passages in the OT and the NT) and says it will be like "a thief in the night" (see Matt. 24:42-44; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 3:3) with "birth pangs" (1 Thes. 5:2-3) in the same event during the first century. The "destruction" of Jerusalem had come upon them in AD 70 (1 Thes. 5:3) from the Roman armies as God's instrument.

In conclusion, there is no evidence in the NT that teaches the two comings of Christ in the first century and another one in the future. Also, nowhere is there any mention of a multi-coming of Christ like as the Dispensationalist system claims (parousia or "rapture" before 7 years of tribulation, the parousia after the great tribulation and the parousia at the end of 1,000 years).

The word "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible, neither is it taught there.

Ah, now where have I heard an "argument" like that before? Why, I believe it was the last time I had a crew of Jehovah's Witnesses in my living room, explaining solemnly that the word "trinity" appears nowhere in Scripture. And they're correct, as far as that goes; it's just that the doctrine of the trinity is supported so extensively by Scripture. I'm always ready to hear a reasoned argument that says I've misunderstood 1 Thessalonians 4, or any other part of the Bible; but I'm short on patience with "the word '[fill in word here]' isn't in the Bible. Mr. Hochner should confine himself to honest arguments.

There is no Scriptural support for this kind of dream, and we should reject it outright. This escapist philosophy is pure fiction. We are not taught to escape reality in the Scripture, but rather to face it knowing that God will work all things out for our good (Rom. 8:28-30).

Mr. Hochner's argument depends on his attribution of base motives to those who disagree with him: they are "escapist philosophers;" they want to "escape reality." I'm sure that is true of some who disagree with him; I am equally sure it is not true of others.

He is our sovereign God and nothing can happen to thwart His plan. To say otherwise is blasphemy to God.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Donald Hochner

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I don't really have much of a detailed eschatological position. While I am convinced that God is going to wrap up this phase of the story at some point, after two millennia of church history, I guess my feeling is that it's pretty unlikely that it (the conclusion) would happen during my brief lifetime on the planet's surface. I think that the Bible's instructions for Christians are quite plain, are repeated many times, and I don't see that there's anything about the way I should live, or the manner in which I should attempt obedience to my redeemer that depends in any way on the details of how God is going to finalize history. I think that exchanging views about these matters is a fine exercise in logic, reasoning, and scholarship -- as long as the exchange is conducted with respect and charity. Sadly, that's seldom how it's done.

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#1. To: All (#0)

Then, IndieTX provided another link in which Mr. Steve Wohlberg writes: "One of the most controversial passages in the Bible is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. Currently, these words are being interpreted as describing a secret Rapture at the beginning of a supposed seven-year period of Tribulation, which will then be followed by the visible Second Coming of Jesus Christ." At the risk of seeming to be carping at everyone's writing, I'm going to object to this passive-voice-verb formulation: " ... these words are being interpreted ..." Who's doing these interpretations? Name some names! Anyway, maybe he's right -- maybe many people are describing this as a "secret rapture." But I've never heard it so described, and it doesn't sound like much of a secret to me, what with the Lord's shout, and the trumpet of God, and the voice of the archangel, and a whole lot (I hope) of dead believers being resurrected first. If I were going to keep a secret, that's not how I'd do it. I haven't gotten much farther than that in Mr. Wohlberg's site, but I will as time permits. And thanks to IndieTX for the link.

Enderby  posted on  2006-08-14   22:12:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Enderby (#1) (Edited)

I haven't gotten much farther than that in Mr. Wohlberg's site, but I will as time permits. And thanks to IndieTX for the link.

You're welcome brother :) Rapture or no rapture, we're all on the same side.


Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

"Freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in ...into an unbearable hell and a choking life."
-OBL
"Prohibition...goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes at the very principles upon which our govt was founded."
- Lincoln
All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford

IndieTX  posted on  2006-08-14   22:17:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Enderby (#1)

This scripture was not interpreted as the rapture until about 150 years ago. I was brought up in this belief, as a likely theory. But only a possible theory since the Scriptures say very plainly that "only the Father knows the hour". And although we know Christ will return, and there will be a big battle in the ME, just what the exact timeline is, no one knows; some like to think they know everything.

An most unfortunately, some of these strongly held beliefs are being used by politicians to enable them to form foreign policies that appear to benefit only one nation, not this one.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-08-14   22:29:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: robin (#3)

An most unfortunately, some of these strongly held beliefs are being used by politicians to enable them to form foreign policies that appear to benefit only one nation, not this one.

This comment so well sums up the mess we're in robin. Thanks.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-14   22:45:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: robin (#3)

This scripture was not interpreted as the rapture until about 150 years ago. I was brought up in this belief, as a likely theory. But only a possible theory since the Scriptures say very plainly that "only the Father knows the hour". And although we know Christ will return, and there will be a big battle in the ME, just what the exact timeline is, no one knows; some like to think they know everything.

I have no idea what the history of the term "rapture" is, and at this point, I guess I'd rather forget the term -- as it seems to be loaded with private meanings. As I read between the lines in various people's comments here, I get the impression that what is being objected to is some notion that believers are not to suffer persecutions, ill-treatment, violence, and death; and, as I've said, a whole lot of the New Testament contradicts any such notion. For two millennia now, faithful Christians have served their full tours, walking the sod, subject to suffering of all sorts; some have indeed suffered greatly, while others seem inexplicably to be spared ... I can't explain it, and God doesn't owe me any explanation -- my part is to obey. And one of these days I'm gonna do just that! ;-) Whenever the end does come, some believers will be in mid-tour, and I take it that those folks are the ones who will fly without benefit of aircraft. Just what troubles they will suffer before this happens, who knows? I suppose they'll be pretty much like all of us in that regard. The way I think of it, one guy might get to miss his execution, while another guy was just about to consummate his marriage. "You pays your money, and you takes your chances."

Big battle in the ME? Shoot, I'm starting to wonder if there's ever a time when there's not a big battle there -- usually several. Sure wish our supervisors would decide to give 'em a miss ... and, as you say, to quit cuddling the Izzies, who don't seem particularly cuddly to me, at least.

Enderby  posted on  2006-08-14   22:49:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Enderby (#5)

As I read between the lines in various people's comments here, I get the impression that what is being objected to is some notion that believers are not to suffer persecutions, ill-treatment, violence, and death; and, as I've said, a whole lot of the New Testament contradicts any such notion.

You're right. I believe we're going to suffer it all. Some may be killed as martyrs, some may survive, but Christians are going to suffer all that is coming, just as everyone else will.

Keep reading those links :) Lots of Biblical proof to back it up. I used to believe in that rapture Hal Lindsey stuff until my eyes were opened long ago.

Peace......


Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

"Freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in ...into an unbearable hell and a choking life."
-OBL
"Prohibition...goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes at the very principles upon which our govt was founded."
- Lincoln
All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford

IndieTX  posted on  2006-08-14   22:57:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Enderby (#0) (Edited)

The Rapture is a rescue myth for goobers. Jesus is going to come and slap around all those uppity college boys and rich folks. All downtrodden cultures have these sorts of myths. As the South Pacific Islanders lost their culture and fell into alcoholism they developed the cargo cults. The Plains Indians had the ghost dance which would bring back all the lost warriors to save them. The Jews awaited the Messiah when the Romans shat on them. Whenever people get deadended they dream up a Big Ju-Ju that will come along and smite their enemies. If you are a marginally employed construction worker in Dayton, you have the rapture myth.

.

...  posted on  2006-08-14   22:59:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Enderby (#1)

Mr. Steve Wohlberg writes: "One of the most controversial passages in the Bible is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. Currently, these words are being interpreted as describing a secret Rapture at the beginning of a supposed seven- year period of Tribulation, which will then be followed by the visible Second Coming of Jesus Christ."

If Mr. Wohlberg were at all honest, he'd have to write:

These words incontrovertably declare there will be a "catching up", but depending on ones eschatological view, that "catching up" may happen at the beginning of a supposed seven-year period of Tribulation, or in the middle, or before God's wrath, or at the end, which will then be followed by the visible Second Coming of Jesus Christ."

But then he'd have no straw man argument to whine about and he'd be in over his head attempting to reconcile 1Thes 4:16,17 with Revelation, Matt 24:27-31, 37- 39; 2Thes 2:1,8; and 1Cor 15:51,52.

So much easier to argue the word "Rapture" never appears in the bible and blame it all on Darby, and pretend it's all a big secret.

Who's doing these interpretations? Name some names!

He can't. Then he'd have to cope with actual arguments and eschatological views. The unnamed strawman avoids so many inconvenient debates.

Anyway, maybe he's right -- maybe many people are describing this as a "secret rapture." But I've never heard it so described,

In all honesty, I never have either except by people arguing against that particular strawman.

and it doesn't sound like much of a secret to me, what with the Lord's shout, and the trumpet of God, and the voice of the archangel, and a whole lot (I hope) of dead believers being resurrected first. If I were going to keep a secret, that's not how I'd do it.

Precisely. It won't be a secret. But it will be ignored by those perish because they'll be under a strong delusion.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-14   23:01:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Enderby (#5)

Big battle in the ME? Shoot, I'm starting to wonder if there's ever a time when there's not a big battle there -

Good point!

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-08-14   23:05:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Enderby (#5) (Edited)

I have no idea what the history of the term "rapture" is, and at this point, I guess I'd rather forget the term -- as it seems to be loaded with private meanings.

I've explained it's history a few times here:

http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=8915&Disp=3#C3

here:

http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=8915&Disp=18#C18

and here:

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=23048&Disp=1#C1

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-14   23:07:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Starwind (#8)

But it will be ignored by those perish because they'll be under a strong delusion.

Who will perish, Starwind. Also, how and why will they perish. Thanks.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-14   23:07:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: IndieTX (#6)

I used to believe in that rapture Hal Lindsey stuff until my eyes were opened long ago.

IndieTX, it may be that my problem is that I've never read a word of Hal Lindsey. I have heard him on radio a few times, and he impressed me as a thoroughly silly ass. The one time I remember (this was back in the mid-80s), he was telling his audience how ominous it was that the U.S. isn't mentioned anywhere in Revelation (implying that there wouldn't be any U.S. by "The End"). As far as I could tell, the way the audience was supposed to change God's mind about this (I guess) was to vote Republican and send Hal some money. Looney Tunes, Looney Tunes.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

Enderby  posted on  2006-08-14   23:08:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Starwind (#8) (Edited)

He reconciles every one of those. Read all the articles and don't take him out of context before commenting. Nobody is attacking anyone here, although your prematurely attacking Mr. Wohlberg's "no rapture" view before reading his defense.

The information is there. Those who will not see it I can not help.

I'm out of the thread because I have nothing more to add. The rest is up to you.

When millions of Rapturists lose their faith when it doesn't happen, they'll be a lot of wailing.

Peace to you.

Video of his no-rapture message: http://www.endtimeinsights.com


Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

"Freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in ...into an unbearable hell and a choking life."
-OBL
"Prohibition...goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes at the very principles upon which our govt was founded."
- Lincoln
All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford

IndieTX  posted on  2006-08-14   23:09:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Jethro Tull (#11)

Who will perish,

Those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

how and why will they perish.

They will be judged on their works, at the white throne judgement of Rev 20:11, without benefit of their sins having been forgiven in Christ, their names not being found in the book of life, and cast into the lake of fire.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-14   23:14:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: ... (#7)

The Jews awaited the Messiah when the Romans shat on them. Whenever people get deadended they dream up a Big Ju-Ju that will come along and smite their enemies. If you are a marginally employed construction worker in Dayton, you have the rapture myth.

Yes, and if you cherish the illusion of self-sufficiency, you have materialism, or Marxism, or Carl-Saganism, or whatever.

The poor deluded ... Isaac Newton, Rene Descartes, and we poor marginally-employed Daytonians. Pity us, please ...

Enderby  posted on  2006-08-14   23:16:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Starwind (#14)

and cast into the lake of fire.

and death is immediate?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-14   23:19:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Enderby (#15)

The poor deluded ... Isaac Newton, Rene Descartes

Thees people didn't buy into that crap. They were Deists like Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin or Thomas Payne. Not only were they part of the enlightenment, they basically started it and set the tone. This is the reason Descartes had to formulate his rational basis for the belief in God - the one that says it is simply the best bet possible given the cost benefit analysis.

.

...  posted on  2006-08-14   23:21:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: ... (#17)

I'd rather be in hell with Gandhi than on a ritzy golf course with Jimmy Swaggert.

Quit bogarting that peace, Herbert!

Dakmar  posted on  2006-08-14   23:26:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Jethro Tull (#16) (Edited)

and death is immediate?

It all depends on how you interpret the book. And you can interpret it anyway you want.

Just look how far the fundies have to torture, twist and interpret the meaning of the various verses to come up with the rapture myth. There is a real question as to whether this is in the Bible at all.

You only have to do about 10% of the sort of interpretation they perform to get out of the lake of fire. For example, in your interpretation, the Lake of Fire is the place where you get fluffed by 72 virgins for all eternity.

Think of the Bible as a big inkblot where any moron can look and see whatever he wants to see.

.

...  posted on  2006-08-14   23:26:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Jethro Tull (#16)

Think of the Bible as a big inkblot where any moron can look and see whatever he wants to see.

And if the person sitting next to you doesn't see the same thing that you do in the inkblot, then he is a heretic and you can torure and kill him.

.

...  posted on  2006-08-14   23:31:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: IndieTX (#13)

He reconciles every one of those.

He didn't address 2Thes 2:1,8 and there is much more to Revelation (note I didn't limit it to a single book or verse, certainly not merely Rev 3:10).

Read all the articles and don't take him out of context before commenting.

I did read them. Your defense of Wohlberg notwithstanding he nonethelesse relied upon the "secret rapture" strawman in "Caught Up" 51; When? and he further poses the rhetorical " Even if Revelation 3:10 does depict a secret Rapture, this would not mean the church would be gone during the Tribulation." in "Revelation 3:10 51; The Rapture?"

And his refutaion of "secret" was not to the catching up but to Jesus 2nd coming in "The Second Coming of Jesus Christ"

although your prematurely attacking Mr. Wohlberg's "no rapture" view before reading his defense.

I read his articles. His "no rapture" view is precisely the problem. The "rapture" is the "catching up" of 1 Thes 4:17. Paul taught it unambigiuously. There is no way to hold a "no rapture" view except to declare Paul to have been mistaken. And as Mr. Wohlberg quotes Paul extensively, I assume he doesn't believe Paul is mistaken.

Consequently one is forced to conclude Mr. Wohlberg's criticism of a "secret rapture" and a "no rapure" view were premature. Not my having pointed out his bias, after I read his lack of argumentation, as pointed out above.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-14   23:33:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: ... (#19)

Rorschach, eh? Well....it's a safe bet i'm going to be tossed head first into the Lake of Fire, which is fine as long as death is immediate.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-14   23:34:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Dakmar (#18)

I'd rather be in hell with Gandhi than on a ritzy golf course with Jimmy Swaggert.

Re: The Dark One

A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race, and political head of the whole of it, must be granted the possession of executive abilites of the loftiest order. In his large presence the other popes & politicians shrink to midgets for the microscope. He hasn't a single salaried helper; The Opposition employs a million.

- Mark Twain's notebook #42

.

...  posted on  2006-08-14   23:37:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Jethro Tull (#22)

Rorschach, eh? Well....it's a safe bet i'm going to be tossed head first into the Lake of Fire.....

I hear that's what happens to those who don't get their souls sandpapered on a regular basis.

.

...  posted on  2006-08-14   23:40:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Jethro Tull (#16) (Edited)

and cast into the lake of fire.

and death is immediate?

They're already dead at the white throne judgement, both physically and spiritually.

Rev 20:11-13 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. (12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Being judged according to ones works, and not having ones name in the book of life, is spiritual death. Spritual life comes in the regeneration:
Tit 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (6) whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, (7) so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
That is what it means to be "born again". To not be born again means to remain spiritually dead.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-14   23:41:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: ... (#7)

If you are a marginally employed construction worker in Dayton, you have the rapture myth.

that's not true. If you're a marginally employed construction worker anywhere, then you should come to Phoenix. Construction is booming in Phoenix. matter of fact - it is booming in many places.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-08-14   23:42:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Jethro Tull (#22)

it's a safe bet i'm going to be tossed head first into the Lake of Fire, which is fine as long as death is immediate.

If your name appears in the book of life you will not be tossed into the lake of fire. Instead, you will spend all eternity with Ann Coulter, George Bush, Pat Robertson, Ron Phelps and all the Freepers who didn't get banned.

.

...  posted on  2006-08-15   0:00:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: ... (#27) (Edited)

Now you're scaring me!

I just remembered, I didn't get banned from FR, I left. Hooray! I mean, Hallelujah!

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-08-15   0:24:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Starwind (#25)

You seem to know a great deal about this rapture business. Do I have time to visit the hairdresser? Do you think I should get a manicure also?

Ragin1  posted on  2006-08-15   1:21:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Ragin1 (#29)

You seem to know a great deal about this rapture business. Do I have time to visit the hairdresser? Do you think I should get a manicure also?

i have always wondered if your clothing gets raptured along with you. if not, never get one of those cutsie tattoos that you only want certain people to see.

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2006-08-15   1:28:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Morgana le Fay (#30)

What I think of the rapture bunnies of our world.

Ragin1  posted on  2006-08-15   1:35:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Dakmar (#18)

I'd rather be in hell with Gandhi than on a ritzy golf course with Jimmy Swaggert.

You've got a point there. Those who are the most well-known "Christians," such as Swaggart, Robertson, Graham, etc., I want nothing to do with. They're bores. If those are the kind of people in Heaven, I don't want to go there. It really sounds as if the most fun people are in Hell.

"Benjamin Franklin was shown the new American constitution, and he said, 'I don't like it, but I will vote for it because we need something right now. But this constitution in time will fail, as all such efforts do. And it will fail because of the corruption of the people, in a general sense.' And that is what it has come to now, exactly as Franklin predicted." -- Gore Vidal

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-08-15   7:16:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Starwind (#25)

They're already dead at the white throne judgement, both physically and spiritually.

If I'm dead when He tosses me into the LOF there isn't pain, right?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-15   7:29:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Morgana le Fay (#30)

i have always wondered if your clothing gets raptured along with you

Morgana, pardon me for being bold, but can we do the Rapture together, butt naked? I'll sing Fly me to the Moon, while you can whistle Would you like to Swing on a Star as we ascend.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-15   7:33:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Jethro Tull (#33)

If I'm dead when He tosses me into the LOF there isn't pain, right?

My reading of the bible (the "Traditionalist" view) says there is, that it is eternal torment.

There is also the "Annihilationist" view which argues (without biblical basis IMO) that the punishment or perishing that God meets out to the unrepentant sinner is a one-time event after which their body, soul, and spirit are completely annihilated and accordingly they no longer exist and don't "feel" or "think" anything. The only support for this view is an argument from silence that the bible does not teach the soul is immortal, but there are many passages about immortality being bestowed upon the saved, hence the unsaved have nothing immortal and their punishment whatever/wherever it is, is of limited duration.

However, the Tradtionalist view is that the punishment of the unsaved is eternal (ongoing and never ending) and with torment, anguish, pain, and regret. Here are some of the passages that convey that teaching:

The above are excerpts to give the gist of the passage. I suggest you lookup the complete verses and their contexts.

How it is that the physically and spiritually "dead" at the white throne judgement can "feel" anything, I don't know. Ostensibly, they've been re- animated enough to stand at the white throne, and presumably their souls and spirits are conscious of their circumstances. It isn't a big stretch from there to being able to feel the torment of the lake of fire, and if God wants to perpetuate that for eternity, I have no doubt He can and will.

The smart move would be to not risk it.

As I've posted elsewhere, why not re-examine the sacrifice Jesus Christ has made on your behalf, recognize the tremendous free (for you) gift of eternal salvation He is offering you, and choose "life" - not out of fear of eternal torment but out of gratitude that He offered you, a sinner, a choice (a second chance really) at all.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-15   9:07:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Starwind (#35)

So in your religious view, I either acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, or be condemned to eternal torment in a lake of fire? I assume this belief applies to those who practice other religions and believe their way is the light and the truth.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-15   9:31:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Jethro Tull (#36) (Edited)

So in your religious view, I either acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, or be condemned to eternal torment in a lake of fire?

Joh 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (17) "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (18) "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I assume this belief applies to those who practice other religions and believe their way is the light and the truth.

Joh 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Act 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-15   9:40:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Enderby (#0)

James was the leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. He warns the apostate Jews to turn into the Lord, otherwise they'll face the wrath of God because they were living in the last days of the Old Covenant system. We know that the temple and the Old Covenant system was burned by fire during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Obviously, the word "you" was referring to the Jewish people in the first century, to which James was speaking, and not to us. Read the next few verses:

The underlined words in the above quote are very misleading in that James says (KJV) in James 1:1:

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

(ASV) Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.

(GNB) From James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ: Greetings to all God's people scattered over the whole world.

(CEV) From James, a servant of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ. Greetings to the twelve tribes scattered all over the world.

He is not addressing his comments to the jews or christians in jerusalem, but to the israelites scattered abroad, which would be those taken in the Assyrian dispersion, and the Babylonian which refused to return, as well as any others that had gone elsewhere, whether thru captivity, i.e., Egypt, or migrated on their own initiative.

Furthermore, 10 of those tribes were NOT jewish (jewish being defined as being from judea for this comment). They were israelites, meaning from the northern kingdom, rather than the southern kingdom where jerusalem is.

So, obviously the word 'you' is NOT referring to jewish people in the first century as those to whom james was addressing.

Technically this may have nothing to do with the meat of the non-rapture or rapture discussion, but it tells me I'd have to research ALL this author is purporting.......which is OK because I don't take none of them as the only RIGHT opinion.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-15   11:42:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: rowdee (#38)

I agree, Rowdee. And in general, without regard to the main point that he's trying to make, I found Mr. Hochner's work to be both slipshod and contentious.

On the other hand, none of the epistles are actually addressed to us; yet most of what is said can be applied to us. I guess the "bottom line" is that some discernment is called for. As with everything in life, that is.

Enderby  posted on  2006-08-15   12:06:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Enderby (#39)

I guess the "bottom line" is that some discernment is called for.

I pray for that daily before taking up the Bible or doing biblical study.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-15   12:15:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Starwind (#37)

Tom 14:6: And this I say to you; My Lord is a loving Lord. All those who are kind and decent shall *not* be tortured eternally in some pot o' fire. Rather, the good among you will be with me in one hell of a groovy place. Go now and spread this word, for it is truth.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-15   12:31:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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