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Title: The "Rapture" Business -- Part Two
Source: [None]
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Published: Aug 14, 2006
Author: Enderby
Post Date: 2006-08-14 22:09:58 by Enderby
Keywords: None
Views: 2482
Comments: 146

I was involved, the other day, in another thread here at Freedom4um, in which the discussion turned to the question of whether "the rapture" is a Biblically-supported concept. After exchanging a post or two with Yertle Turtle and Zipporah, I began to wonder whether we were all working from the same definition of "rapture." Having done some reading, I still think that's the problem (definitional differences, that is). 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 says (NASB translation, emphasis added by me): For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The term "rapture" cames from the Latin verb raptus, meaning "to seize, catch, or carry away." The same verb supplies the root of the name of a whole category of birds that get their groceries in this way: "raptors" are eagles, hawks, buzzards, condors, and so on. If we take "rapture" to mean simply a catching-up from above (which, since I am a simple-minded person, is how I understand the term), I don't think there can be much dispute about whether living believers will be removed from the earth's surface and drawn to the Lord, following the general resurrection of the believing dead. I gather, however, from the reading to which Zipporah was kind enough to provide a link, that others have added to that meaning. I am reproducing the text from that link here, and interjecting some comments in italic font.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Does the Bible teach the "Rapture"?

By Donald Hochner

There are many Christians today who would love to be able to escape the troubles of this world. They believe that the Church will be "raptured" just before the great tribulation or the destruction of this world, depending on which "futurist" view you hold to. However, this kind of "escapism" is not taught in Scriptures.

"Rapture," "futurism," and "escapism" haven't been defined yet -- nor will they be in the rest of Mr. Hochner's essay. And that's not good.

Also there is no guarantee in Scriptures that would lead us to believe that the Church will be "caught up" in order to avoid suffering or persecutions because Jesus prayed that the Father would "not to take them (elect) out of the world, but to keep them from evil one" (John 17:15).

But what if there was some other reason for a catching-up? I agree with Mr. Hochner that the church is not promised immunity from suffering and persecution. Indeed, the New Testament is pretty well filled with promises to the contrary: promises that were already being made good for the savagely-persecuted first century church. Also, I think Mr. Hochner is stealing a base by putting that parenthetical "elect" after "them" in John 17:15. As usual, context is everything; this is right in the middle of a chapters-long discourse by Jesus to his twelve disciples at the Last Supper, and the "them" absolutely refers to those disciples. What is said may apply also to believers in general, and it may not ... but the plain and direct meaning of the text is not to be casually "blown off" with a single word in parentheses. Besides, when Jesus says He's not praying for His disciples to be taken out of the world right then, that obviously does not mean that they will never be taken out of the world in any way, at any time. Every one of them died, as have all believers that I know of since then, apart from the small minority of us who are alive today -- and I'm old enough now that I can sort of see my opportunity to sneak off by way of the grave coming up, too.

The "rapture" theme is the most popular and well-known subject among evangelical Christianity. Most believe (I once did) that we will "zoom" up to meet with Christ in the air without experiencing physical death or have our faith tested, to see whether it be real or not. They usually refer the passages in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 as their proof text. But I believe they have taken these verses out of context. Most futurist's views have fallen short in their failure to properly take into account the historical-grammatical and cultural context of the prophecies; specifically what they meant to their first century audience.

In order to understand the passage in 1 Thes. 4:13-18, we must understand the overall view of this epistle by Paul and the NT writers before we come to any conclusion. These passages will be our anchor for this brief study. We cannot look at all the instances for this would be time consuming, and the space required would be prohibitive. You may be able to discern more of the meaning after reading what I have written.

Of course, we must go back into the beginning of this epistle of 1 Thessalonians. It was Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy's greeting to the church of the Thessalonians in the first century (about AD 50's). Anytime you see the word "we", it means Paul, Silvanus, Timothy, and the brethren in their time, not to us as the readers in the present time. Keep in mind that the NT was written for us, not to us.

Very true ... and Mr. Hochner might have wanted to keep that in mind himself, when he inserted his personal assumption into John 17:15, as I noted above.

Paul wrote in this epistle, that they were "in much tribulation" (1:6). They had already "suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amid much opposition" (2:2). From what quarter was the persecution? It was from the apostate Jews. This can be found in this epistle:

"For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the Prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost" (2:14-16).

Does the phase "fill up the measure of their sins" in verse 16 ring a bell? Yes it does. This can be found in Matt. 23:

"Consequently you bear witness against yourself, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zecheriah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things shall be upon this generation" (vv. 31-36).

We must remember the context in which those words were spoken. Jesus told the scribes and the Pharisees "Behold, your house [temple] being left to you desolate!" in their generation (vv. 36, 38). Either we have to say it is all future (and make Jesus a liar for saying any of it would occur in that generation), or make it all fulfilled at AD 70 (and preserve the integrity of Jesus).

Also there is another connection in James 5:

"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and put death the righteous man; he does not resist you" (vv. 1-6).

James was the leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. He warns the apostate Jews to turn into the Lord, otherwise they'll face the wrath of God because they were living in the last days of the Old Covenant system. We know that the temple and the Old Covenant system was burned by fire during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Obviously, the word "you" was referring to the Jewish people in the first century, to which James was speaking, and not to us. Read the next few verses:

"Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rain. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; Behold, the judge is standing at the door" (James 5:7-9).

Lastly this also can be found in Rev. 18:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying 'Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues, for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities" (vv. 4-5).

Who is this harlot, Babylon the great? Most in the futurist camp would say Rome, the future apostate Christianity. Not quite! The Bible has the answer as to the identity of the great city referred to. Rev. 11:8 says the great city (see Rev. 14:8; 16:19; 17:1, 18; 18:2) which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified. It was Jerusalem, without a doubt. The harlot was apostate Israel because of her rejection of the Son of God. Before Christ died on the cross, the Jewish people cried and "prophesied" against themselves saying: "His blood be on us and on our children" (Matt. 27:25). They didn't realize what they were saying, as after 40 years (a generation) later God was accomplishing all things as the OT and the NT had predicted (Luke 21:22, 32).

In addition, what about the phase "wrath has come upon them (apostate Jews) to the utmost" in same verse in 1 Thes. 2:16? Paul even mentioned this two other times in this epistle:

"And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes. 5:9).

This also can be found in Matthew 3 when John the Baptist warns to the Jews:

"But when he (John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers (see also in Matt. 23), who warned you to flee from the wrath [about] to come?"

...And,

"the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire". ...And, "His (Jesus) winning fork is in His hand, and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (vv. 7, 10,12).

Obviously, John the Baptist was warning the apostate Jewish people.

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians not to be disturbed by these afflictions because they believed that God had destined them for this and it came to pass (1 Thes. 3:3-4, 7). They knew it was according to God's purpose predestined to occur.

Note that Paul was saying that the Lord "may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the *coming* of our Lord Jesus with all His saints (1 Thes. 3:13). The word "coming" is very important and we cannot overlook this one. The Greek word for "coming" is parousia. It is mentioned 17 times reference to the coming of Christ, four of them in this epistle (1 Thes. 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23). If you are a futurist, whether you are Premill, Postmill, or Amill: how many "comings" do you believe will occur?

I have to interrupt at this point to complain about the jargon. "If you are a futurist," he says ... how am I supposed to know whether he's talking to me or not? He keeps using these terms without defining them. "Premill, Postmill, or Amill" ... not only not defined, but he can't even be bothered to spell them out.

From my experience (I was one of them), futurists believe there are two or more "comings" of Christ whether they realize or not. Let me explain what I mean. If you are a pretribulation Premill (or a Dispensationalist), there are three different comings of Christ in the future. You may say, "No way!" I'll show you what I mean with the Greek word "parousia" in these passages:

1. The second coming of Christ in the pretribulation rapture: *1 Thes. 2:19 *1 Thes. 3:13 *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *2 Thes. 2:1 (see below after 7 years of great tribulation) *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28

2. The third coming of Christ after 7 years of great tribulation: *Matt. 24:27-31, 37-39 *2 Thes. 2:8

3. The fourth coming of Christ after 1,000 years *1 Cor. 15:23-24 (most aren't sure of this) *2 Peter 3:10-13

So, they believe there are three comings of Christ in the future. Would you agree with that? Does the Bible teach that? I have shown this to some futurist brethren, and their eyes didn't even blink! They were speechless.

As for the moderate or "inconsistent" preterist (Postmill or Amill), they believe two "comings" of Christ, one in AD 70 to judge Israel; but the literal, final coming of Christ is still in the future according to their creeds or the traditions of men. I'll show you:

1. In AD 70: *Matt. 24:27-31 (some are sure about vv. 37-39) *2 Thes. 2:1 *2 Thes. 2:8 *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28

2. In the future: *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *1 Cor. 15:23-25 *2 Peter 3:10-13

Look closely for the futurist's theological gymnastics here, then ask yourself if the first century brethren would have understood two or more different comings being spoken of using exactly the same Greek word and terminology. If the NT writers understood two or more different comings separated by different periods of time, we would expect them to stop somewhere and explain to this us. Since they did not do that, we must assume the same coming is under consideration. More on that shortly.

Tell me, dear reader, if this makes sense to you. Paul writes to the Thessalonians and informs them "to wait for His Son from heaven" who delivers them "from the wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10) even if it did not occur in the first century? Those in the futurist camp would say that there is what has now been an almost 2,000 years gap, because "those things simply didn't happen" when the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in AD 70. I would counter with this: Paul says that they (first-century brethren) should wait for the Son. Would it make sense to inform the first-century brethren to wait for the Son, if His coming was to happen in our time? That would be pointless to the Thessalonians, and it would make Paul's informing them useless, because these men would only come in our time.

Now, we'll do a little study on 1 Thes. 4:13-5:11. Please make sure you have the Bible in hand, verifying all that is taught to you (Acts 17:11).

This may change the way you view the fulfillment of prophecy, perhaps even the way you view the whole Bible, as it did for me.

I believe there is a connection between 1 Thes. 4:15-17, Matt. 24:30-31, 1 Cor. 15:50-5 and Rev. 11:15 as being the same event in AD 70 because of the last "trumpet of God":

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming [parousia] of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15-17).

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, the all the tribes of the earth [land] will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the our winds, from one end of the sky to the other" (Matt. 24:30-31).

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:50-52).

"And the seventh (trumpet) angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15 and read vv. 16-19).

Also, I think it would be easier for us if we can make a comparison between parallel passages such 1 Thes. 4-5 and Matt 24:

1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16 4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17 7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17 8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2 9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4 10. Unbelievers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3 11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3 12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4 13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7

Do these parallel passages cause your jaw drop to the ground? The conclusion is inescapable that 1 Thes. 4-5 is dealing with exactly same coming, judgment, and resurrection that Matt. 24 is.

If we don't relocate this prophecy of Matt. 24 into our future, then it was a prophecy to them, who were there at the Mount of Olives, when Jesus spoke, that is: in "that generation" (Matt. 24:34). We must compare Scriptures with Scriptures to interpret them properly. It does not matter what you or I may think, but what saith the Scripture? I do not care what the "prophecy experts" may say; it is the Word of God, "sola scriptura" that makes the decision for me. The futurists realize that a true analysis of biblical text related to the timing of prophetic events endangers their eschatological position.

You might ask, "but doesn't the Bible say that we shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air?" Yes it does, but what does the word "air" means? Is it in our atmosphere or the air we breath?

Well, I'm just a simpleminded man, but I would suppose from reading 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that the "air" being referred to here is the kind of "air" that contains "clouds." Now, maybe those "clouds" can be spiritualized away too. But what happened to the exegetical principle that the plain and straightforward meaning of a text is the preferred one?

We can compare with other Scriptures in Eph 2:2: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." The word "air" is an another word for heavenly or spiritual realm. Satan was always an opponent of the scheme of the redemption as we can see throughout the Bible. He was (but is no longer) the prince of the power of the air. In Rom. 16:20 Paul says that Satan would be crushed "shortly" (see Gen 3:15). Jesus now has taken over that sphere and rules in the "air" with the saints since the destruction of Jerusalem. If that is the same "air" where the saints were to meet and be gathered, then there is no necessity for us to believe that the rapture gathering and meeting was to be physical and visible either. It was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the ingrafted Gentiles was transformed (and transferred) into Christ's new spiritual Israel (new covenant) when the old fleshly-based (old covenant) was taken away in AD 70. The "gathering together" is the heavenly places in Christ - the spiritual kingdom of God. Satan is no longer around here; he is now in the lake of fire.

Also notice what Paul wrote: "By the word of the Lord, thatwe who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord" in both verses 15 & 17 of 1 Thessalonians. They were expecting of an imminent parousia in their lifetime. We need to step back out of our 20th century mindset and stop looking at the NT as if it was written in our generation. Otherwise Paul was mistaken and not an inspired writer. The Bible is inerrant, infallible, and sufficient.

As we have seen 1 Thes. 5 cannot be isolated from the context of 1 Thes. 4. 2 Thessalonians cannot be ignored either. In this context (1 Thes. 4:13-5:11) Paul calls this parousia, "the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15) and the "day of the Lord" (1 Thes. 5:2 with numerous passages in the OT and the NT) and says it will be like "a thief in the night" (see Matt. 24:42-44; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 3:3) with "birth pangs" (1 Thes. 5:2-3) in the same event during the first century. The "destruction" of Jerusalem had come upon them in AD 70 (1 Thes. 5:3) from the Roman armies as God's instrument.

In conclusion, there is no evidence in the NT that teaches the two comings of Christ in the first century and another one in the future. Also, nowhere is there any mention of a multi-coming of Christ like as the Dispensationalist system claims (parousia or "rapture" before 7 years of tribulation, the parousia after the great tribulation and the parousia at the end of 1,000 years).

The word "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible, neither is it taught there.

Ah, now where have I heard an "argument" like that before? Why, I believe it was the last time I had a crew of Jehovah's Witnesses in my living room, explaining solemnly that the word "trinity" appears nowhere in Scripture. And they're correct, as far as that goes; it's just that the doctrine of the trinity is supported so extensively by Scripture. I'm always ready to hear a reasoned argument that says I've misunderstood 1 Thessalonians 4, or any other part of the Bible; but I'm short on patience with "the word '[fill in word here]' isn't in the Bible. Mr. Hochner should confine himself to honest arguments.

There is no Scriptural support for this kind of dream, and we should reject it outright. This escapist philosophy is pure fiction. We are not taught to escape reality in the Scripture, but rather to face it knowing that God will work all things out for our good (Rom. 8:28-30).

Mr. Hochner's argument depends on his attribution of base motives to those who disagree with him: they are "escapist philosophers;" they want to "escape reality." I'm sure that is true of some who disagree with him; I am equally sure it is not true of others.

He is our sovereign God and nothing can happen to thwart His plan. To say otherwise is blasphemy to God.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Donald Hochner

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I don't really have much of a detailed eschatological position. While I am convinced that God is going to wrap up this phase of the story at some point, after two millennia of church history, I guess my feeling is that it's pretty unlikely that it (the conclusion) would happen during my brief lifetime on the planet's surface. I think that the Bible's instructions for Christians are quite plain, are repeated many times, and I don't see that there's anything about the way I should live, or the manner in which I should attempt obedience to my redeemer that depends in any way on the details of how God is going to finalize history. I think that exchanging views about these matters is a fine exercise in logic, reasoning, and scholarship -- as long as the exchange is conducted with respect and charity. Sadly, that's seldom how it's done.

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In Rowdee's response in #37, it is pointed out that Peter is adressing the Tribes of Israel. So couldn't it be adressing us, if indeed we are of those Tribes? If it were possible to trace it that far back, there are no doubt descendants of those Tribes walking the planet today. AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt addressed this issue of True Israel in another post.

Uh, yes, I did. But I'm not a proponent of the Ten Tribes doctrine.

I believe the CHURCH is Israel, from every tribe, nation, and tongue [Rev. 5:9- 10].

John 3:16 For God so loved THE WORLD......

Look at grace, which Paul spoke so much of. In ALL of Old Testament, the word grace came from the Hebrew chen an adjective meaning favored; in Paul's writings it came from the Greek word charis a verb meaning an act of gratification..... I find it conceivable that the Creator could indeed find favor in some people, but I find it very hard to believe that ANY of us have done anything so special that He should be in gratification of it - let alone ALL of us with the only requirement being to believe in Him. Just my 2¢

I also believe in grace. See this link, and just read the related verses spoken by Jesus, if you want:

Eph 2:8 — For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Eph/2/8.html

As far as gratification, doesn't the Bible say, "It PLEASED the LORD to bruise Him." That rather seems to mean to me that God is gratified to be able to save us, IF WE BELIEVE, not because of anything we did, but because God is love.

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Jo/1Jo004.html#10

What I refrained from saying earlier, is that I also believe America is prophetic Jerusalem, the daughter of Jerusalem [faithful Jerusalem], dwelling with the daughter of Babylon [the whore Jerusalem] and I don't see how anyone who is witness to all the Satanic, demonic attacks being made against this country from EVERY angle can't see it, and that fact puts a whole new complexion on the issues, as far as I am concerned.

I was just given a new link earlier today, that reveals the truly ancient, other-worldly nature of the battle being raged over America. It's freaky, but in a way, also comforting, because I know we have no control over THAT, and that makes me feel that this battle is God's, and He is going to go before us in it. For an example, see II Chronicles 20:11-30. The Old Testament is FILLED with prophecies for this day and this country. Micah 4 and Psalm 2 are just two of them.

But I do NOT believe there is going to be a rapture, and I am not saying we will see no persecution and all the rest, but I DO think America is going to be delivered from all those who hate her, including those inside her, and I guess that is the point I was trying to get across.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-15   20:54:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's how I know Christianity and every other religion is bunk.

1. Religion is used as a tool by religious leaders and politicians to further agendas and create wars for no reason other than monetary gain.

2. Religious leaders are the first wave of apologists for what politicians do.

3. If a religion, or a religious leader gets out of line with the dogma preached by either the government or the religious organization, they get slapped down, or assassinated like Martin Luther King.

4. Religion is about mocking the victim. What I mean to say is that only after you die, do you get any kind of reward, instead of reaping a reward in life.

5. With all the souls that have died for the lies of their leaders, none of them have come back for revenge in the form of a disembodied spirit, or a reincarnated person of any consequence.

6. Every generation since the beginning of time has believed the end of the world was coming, and portions of every generations work to bring it about. Why? Because they believe their religion is a means to get to heaven. If that were the case, then surely we'd all be spared the burden of living here on this fucking planet.

7. Every single person who debates me uses scripture to make their point, even though the scripture itself was written and re-written a hundred times by men, who used it to manipulate and create societies based on usury and lies. Nobody seems to see this fact and it proves that all religions are cults and a means to control people.

8. God is not going to finalize this planet, as a REAL God really doesn't need to have a little piece of land called Israel be the center of the universe. If it were so important to God, I can assure you that God would have made it impenetrable from the outside, or simply put it in his big pocket and taken it with him. Israel is important to the Jewish people, and the people who have been duped into believing the Bible.

9. I can assure you folks that God is not coming back here on any time table that is created by fundamentalist muslims and christians. In fact, God really doesn't have much use for people who he created in his image who still act like a bunch of greedy half-monkeys.

10. Those who say they're descendents of Jesus and who have the Holy Right to rule us are all a bunch of fucking liars and deceivers who have used religion, and mythology to assure their right to manipulate, cheat, lie, destroy and fleece the people of the world. If these people were truly sons and daughters of God, God is surely pissed off as hell at these fuckers for not living up to their potential.

This is just a sample of the arguments I can make that ALL religions are false, and fake. Sure as shit, there will be some bible thumping retard who will quote scripture to make their idiotic point, which is in fact just part of the con of ALL religions.

ALL RELIGIONS ARE CONS. Especially if you have to pay tithe and tribute for redemption.

What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-08-15   21:28:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Morgana, pardon me for being bold, but can we do the Rapture together, butt naked? I'll sing Fly me to the Moon, while you can whistle Would you like to Swing on a Star as we ascend.

you should join your local Wiccan church. you can go to the skyclad ceremonies there every full moon. the groups are mostly women. here for example there are 27 women and only two men. the two men are the husbands of two members and only come because their wives make them. the group is always looking for male members.

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2006-08-15   21:59:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

1. Religion Politics is used as a tool by religious gubmint leaders and politicians to further agendas and create wars mayhem and class envy for no reason other than monetary gain.

2. Religious Party leaders are the first wave of apologists for what politicians do.

3. If a religion poster, or a religious leader party member gets out of line with the dogma preached by either the government or the religious political organization, they get slapped down, or assassinated like Martin Luther King [or any other voter/citizen/poster].

4. Religion Politics is about mocking the victim. What I mean to say is that only after you die, do you get any kind of reward, instead of reaping a reward in life there is definitely no reward inasmuch as you're taxed on what you leave behind--all without the ability to protest such confiscation.

5. With all the souls citizens that have died for the lies of their leaders, none of them have come back for revenge in the form of a disembodied spirit, or a reincarnated person of any consequence {, or in any other way in order to reclaim their damned country].

As you can see, TTMA, your comments can apply to other things....from government to ngos to local water or sewer district organizations. So, to whack around on 'bible thumpers' is a whole lot disingenious. That isn't to say that religion hasn't been used in the most god-awful of ways--so has governments through-out history; of course, mankind has been a bit barbarian, likewise.

You use what appears to be a broad brush to apparently condemn everyone who believes in God. God, in order to be The God, can do any damned thing He wants, when He wants, how He wants, where He wants---all without having to worry about whether someone here thinks He is only supposed to be a God of love or some other 'thing' that THEY determine He should be or act as or whatever.

He can set up anyone He wants to make an example for anyone else that He wants...or He could set them up to be all that He cares about.....so what's the bitch. If you're more powerful, or anyone else for that matter, go ahead and try.

As the joke goes with the scientist who told God he wasn't needed anymore as mankind had learned how to make man; God told him to go ahead and prove it; and the jerk grabbed some of God's dirt----and God told him to put it down and go find his own dirt!

That people cannot look at the universe and see the footprints of The God is to their sorrow, whether it is yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-15   22:14:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

the group is always looking for male members.

Ah....like i'd be soooooo screwed if I got caught (but I really, really want to go)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-15   22:15:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

That people cannot look at the universe and see the footprints of The God is to their sorrow, whether it is yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

Agreed...all you need to do is look around to see clear evidence of G-d's handiwork; and, regretably; the Devil's, as well.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-08-15   22:18:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ah....like i'd be soooooo screwed if I got caught (but I really, really want to go)

just tell your wife that you are going to a religious function.

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2006-08-15   22:26:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's the damn function part.....

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-15   22:35:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's the damn function part.....

tell the group about it. almost everyone in the goup fancies themselves to be a healer - and most have no one to practice on. my guess is that they will take you on as a project. a team effort might be very effective.

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2006-08-15   22:40:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Had Paul not come along when he did, do you believe that christianity would have survived? Reverted back to judiasm? Or what?

I can't believe that the man, or any man, would go to his death hawking a lie.

I don't have a problem with his background, i.e., Roman citizen, judaism/pharisee, Benjamite. His educational background made him, IMO, a great candidate to be converted and put to use for Christ's benefit.

I've been trying to do a lot of background reading the past couple of weeks-- before starting a deeper study of the N.T. One thing I believe many miss, and I'm not saying that you do, or any number on this board do, is that we really need to try to look through the eyes of the people at THAT time. We can't place todays' values on how it was back then. Right now, I'm thinking of sacrifices. Most people in this nation abhor bloodshed, it's repulsive. And yet, it was very much a part of the sacrificial system back in O/T times. Blood signified 'the life of the soul'.

I go round and round with a cousin over this. Hey, I'm not crazy about seeing blood or shedding blood--even for juicy steaks or lamb chops! But, I see the symbolism this represented as a forerunner of what Christ would do. Cousin still can't see this. I just have to tell him that when he becomes God, he can do it his way.

That was what to me was remarkable about the apostles. Even Judas died an ugly death. But none of them denied Jesus Christ or his message....even though faced with terrible deaths.

It would have been a lot easier back then to 'back out' or deny what they had been teaching/preaching.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-15   22:43:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well this certainly changes things. I do well with new friends. I mean it's like I'm 18 again. I think this is going to be fine. Do I need to know chants? A working knowledge of incense? Is black an appropriate color to wear?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-15   22:55:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well this certainly changes things. I do well with new friends. I mean it's like I'm 18 again. I think this is going to be fine. Do I need to know chants? A working knowledge of incense? Is black an appropriate color to wear?

Why don't you ask your local group? Tell them that you don't know anything about their stuff but you want to learn. I bet they've been craving someone to teach for years. I've found that the more you let women fuss over you the more they like you.

.

...  posted on  2006-08-15   23:08:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Love your posts!

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-15   23:10:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Let me run this by my g/f. My life simply isn't my own.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-15   23:11:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I think this is going to be fine. Do I need to know chants? A working knowledge of incense? Is black an appropriate color to wear?

the chants are like folk songs. they keep repeating the same things over and over. you learn that way. there is a lot of singing at the meetings. just wear regular clothing. the women are usually on guard for weirdos and strange dress will put them off.

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2006-08-15   23:16:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

How does one go about locating one of these groups?

.

...  posted on  2006-08-15   23:17:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

How does one go about locating one of these groups?

you first get rid of your bad attitude and improper motives.

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2006-08-15   23:23:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Is there a chance we might conger up an imp or two?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-08-15   23:25:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I can't believe that the man, or any man, would go to his death hawking a lie.

I don't have a problem with his background, i.e., Roman citizen, judaism/pharisee, Benjamite. His educational background made him, IMO, a great candidate to be converted and put to use for Christ's benefit.

I agree. I think the Pharisees have been poisoning the waters surrounding Paul, maybe because, being a Pharisee, they consider him a "traitor" to Judaism, or because his message of adoption by faith is so threatening to the Jewish supremacist agenda, including the British-Israel NWO agenda. Which is probably why Jesus chose Him!

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-15   23:25:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

you will just have to go and see what pops up.

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2006-08-15   23:27:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I agree. I see Paul as a man able as a 'international' bridge--he knew both sides of the bridge, and could bring to the gentiles understanding of O/T scriptures and bring to the jews the gospel message.

And I think I see this even more clearly today. I was going thru a bunch of urls today and came across a site that explained a good bit about the 'mindset' of the ancient east vs the west and how there is much difference in how they think. My mind is a bit numb right now, or I'd try to bring out an example, which really points up the need for people to put themselves into 'that' mindset vs 'our' mindset today.

Translations play a huge part as well.....the old 'there was something lost in the translation' is very true.

Anyways, it just seems like all thru the ages that God has chosen certain people to do His bidding....good people and bad people==at least what we consider good or bad.

Even Pharoah was used to make His point. Saul...Sampson...Gomer...... Nebuchadnezzar..........hell, even Abraham, who was a liar and who hid behind a womans' skirt to save his arse. And David.....certainly beloved of God, but an adulterer nonetheless, and certainly a polygamist. Rahab. Ruth. Sennnacherib. An endless number of people He chose to use. He might could have found all 'goodie two shoes', but they wouldn't be able to serve the same purposes as these flawed people did.

And we can carry that forward to today in our own lives. I'll use as a for instance, the person of Jimmy Swaggart. Maybe this is a bad example--I don't know as I've not seen or heard anything at all about him in ages and ages. And I don't know anything about his ministry. But here is a man that took a huge fall. I do know he was brought down to his knees with the scandal.

Is God using the man for his purposes? To show that no matter how low a person falls, he can still be redeemed? I can't judge whether his heart and soul asked for forgiveness and has repented, or turned away from the sin he elected to enter. I have no way of knowing that. I could go by external signs maybe, but that can be deceiving.

While many would and no doubt have condemned him, they'd best leave that up to God. As I see it, the preachers, teachers, priests, pastors, dometas, etc., have an extra special responsibility on their shoulders. Should they be leading people astray, their punishment at the end of time will be much greater that a plain, ordinary sinner.

That said, I firmly believe we should not be blindly sitting and following any minister/pastor/priest/teacher/etc. I believe we must search on our own and pray for knowledge, discernment, wisdom.

There are so many more tools available today than ever before. There is so much information and opinions out there that it is incumbent upon us to study for ourselves.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-15   23:57:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The term "rapture" cames from the Latin verb raptus, meaning "to seize, catch, or carry away."

I am pretty sure you can add "rapine" and "rape" to the list. See the Women of the Sabines circa 715 BC in Rome.

One of my favorite paintings by Jaque Louis David(1799). From this event came the custom of carring the bride over the threshold by the "rapine" male.

tom007  posted on  2006-08-16   0:33:43 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's the thing Rowdee, I do believe in God, but NOT the crap that everyone was forced into.

Christianity, like every other religion since the dawn of time has been about controls being put in place to get people to act a certain way, and to get people to follow along.

Seeing God's footprints is a lot like seeing God's shit piles too. Especially when you see what this planet has to offer the universe.

That's the real problem with all organized religions, they all seem to think that just because they believe in THEIR god, they're better than everyone else who thinks differently, or who doesn't share their same indoctrination or programming.

You took the first 5 sentences on and made a valid point, but unfortunately you have the wrong impression that I somehow associate believing in God, with being Christian, Buddhist, Muslim whatever. That is WRONG. I don't follow ANY religion that demands my money, my fealty, or demands I join a church or some other herd of morons who believe the same things.

The reason? Because the God I've come to know, really can't be bothered too much with people using his ideologies to make money, or further an extinction agenda while pretending to be his genetic offspring.

Jesus Christ, and Christianity is a religion about mocking the victim. Why do you suppose that all of the visuals of Christ are of him on the Cross? It surely isn't to put that thought in your mind that he died for our sins, there are many ways to do that without a representation of him on the cross. Showing that over and over again, is about mocking the victim, who was Christ. Saying he died for our sins is a joke compared to the real reason why he died was because of the EVIL of humanity of that time.

The Pharissees, or what I like to call the LIARS, THIEVES and USERS of the day didn't like the idea of Jesus coming in there and wrecking their scam, so they had his ass killed. They took him to Pilate, and guess what happened? Nothing, so they took him to Herod, and again, nothing, so they took him back to Pilate, and of course we all know what happened.

Why would people of that time, who had a so called foreknowledge of Christ's coming do their damndest to have him killed? Because all religions are about falsehoods, lies and indoctrination. The church that Christ spoke of isn't the blasphemy that ALL Christian churches have become. It's not the Catholic Church. It's not Islam. It's not Buddhism, and it sure as shit isn't Satanism.

Christ didn't die for the sins of humanity. Christ died because OF the inherent sins of those people who lived so long ago, and the true evil here, is the lie that has been perpetrated on subsequent generations that believing in this lie of salvation and of the second coming. Jesus is NOT coming back the way the Bible says it. The reason? Because the bible is a lie, and the things that are happening now, were happening then, and there's not a fucking thing that has changed in 2000 years.

The same evil people who were around then, who were ruling the known world are the same group of assraping weasels that are ruling the world today. In 2000 years you'd think that God would have gotten sick and tired of the bullshit and wiped out everything on this pathetic planet. Nope, it just goes right along and keeps on rolling. Every generation seems to have the right situation arise where people are fooled into another con, where they give their lives so that some elite cocksucker can reap a profit. Every generation thinks it's the end of days. Every generation expects the world to end, and guess what happens? THE SHIT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON.

Everything that you're seeing is NOT the hand of God, but the hand of these assraping weasels that have not only been responsible for all the evil in the world, but for sponsoring and creating the very religions that everyone worships to. Think about that for a minute. Where did these religions come from, and who are responsible for their being passed down?

Last time I checked, it's the same group of evil people who have kept mankind from thriving, from innovating, and prospering. Before you get all high and mighty with me, realize that I do indeed believe in God, but Not the god you worship, because my God has more important things to do than save a planet full of retarded half-monkeys who can't seem to live and let live.

What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-08-16   0:47:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Had Paul not come along when he did, do you believe that christianity would have survived? Reverted back to judiasm? Or what?

Hmmmmmm.... I don't know. I do know one thing - the word Christian only appears in Scripture 3 times. And it was never once a word used by the apostles to describe themselves. In each instance it was a name given them by someone else. If someone calls you a communist (just because you've read The Communist Manifesto, or happen to know a lot about it) - doesn't mean that you ARE a communist.

I can't believe that the man, or any man, would go to his death hawking a lie.

What about Bush, Hitler, et al? OK, I know they are of a whole different ilk to start with, but... ALL men are liars. Well, at least according to Paul. But he's right. Not that a person may intentionally be lying, but it happens. I'm sure we've all had a situation where something happened that we would have bet the house on, and later found out we were wrong. Wasn't intentional - man makes mistakes. God doesn't.

I don't have a problem with his background, i.e., Roman citizen, judaism/pharisee, Benjamite. His educational background made him, IMO, a great candidate to be converted and put to use for Christ's benefit.

His background did make him a GREAT candidate to teach to the ones he was sent to teach! Remember, Paul was a lawyer. And lawyers are very adept at clever wording to convince others of their arguement. He HAD to, or else there was NO hope of achieving his goal. That alone makes Paul's writings considerably more difficult to deal with. How many lawyers do you really trust?

I feel that what we're missing today is the same thing that was missing when the Messiah walked the planet. Adherence to God's Laws. From the very start of Scripture man always thought he had a better way than what the Creator asked. From the moment Eve went against the Creator's law and partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil right up to this very day. The Creator made a contract (covenant) with man, and we've violated our end of that contract from day 1. He told us not to eat pork or rabbit or shrimp; but we do. He told us not to pay or charge usury; but we do. He told us not to have hybrid crops or crossbreed cattle; but we do. He told us to keep the Sabbath but we don't. He told us not to worship other gods but we do.

The Messiah attempted to get us back on track and follow His Father's Laws. He even said as much while teaching in the temple - "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet you keepeth not the law?" They weren't then, and we're not now.

It does seem to me that the ones that claim to be christian seem to quote from Paul a great deal, even more than they quote from the Messiah Himself. I'm not saying you do, or anyone else in particular, just a general observation.

I don't claim to be christian. I'm not jew, amish, or any "organized" religion. They all have a certain "standard", and I don't ascribe to those standards. I am very spiritual. I study Scripture. I'm not the sharpest tack in the box, and all I'm after is the truth. I think we're ALL in pursuit of the truth.

I enjoy your posts, as well as AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt's posts, and noone 222's... I learn from all of you guys. I hope that the offerings of insight I give don't offend any of you, and that maybe you can glean something from my posts. My method of study is really quite simple - I don't interpret any of it; to do so in my opinion is to create a diversion, and allow the opportunity to fall from truth. I take it all literally. When He said don't wear fabrics mingled of woollen and linen; I take that seriously, and make sure what I wear is 100% cotton or whatever. I feel if we lived by the Law the Creator gave us in the first place, there would never have been need for the sacrifice of His Son, hence I place considerably less importance on New Testament than Old, save for the actual teachings of the Messiah Himself. But I have found the Messiah reinforced the Mosaic Law, not contradict it.

I realize my beliefs place me in a very tiny minority, and I accept that. And I think He has rewarded me for that. Adhering to His Laws has kept me from participation in the abundant Babylonian Talmudic nonsense we're surrounded with, and I thank the Creator everyday for it.

Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

innieway  posted on  2006-08-16   2:22:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

First, TTMA, if you or anyone else got the impression I was trying to be high and mighty with you, I assure you that was certainly not my intent. I don't do 'uppity', and if I did, I surely did a pisspoor job of it! :).

I believe this is the first time I've seen where you've indicated you believe in God, whichever one you have; you did note your God is not the one I worship.

If GOd made man in His image, why would you call them retarded half-monkeys-- would you not think He'd be offended at your opinion of his works?

I don't understand your comment 'but NOT the crap that every was forced into'. I don't understand your usage of 'crap'.

Could you expound on what you believe are the 'controls in place to get people to act a certay way or to follow along'?

Seeing God's footprints---you have low regard for this planet as well as the universe as a whole? You think God made a shitter?

What do you consider 'belief' or 'faith' means? Even Satan believed in God and Jesus Christ. He know they're real. But just believing in their existence doesn't guarantee anything. If that was the case, then Satan would be back in Heaven singing in the holy choir.

I can't vouch for 'all organized religions' as it regards believing they are better than everyone else who thinks differently or not the same doctrine or programming. I'm not a part of that. But I do read scriptures and I believe that Jesus Christ has said the only way to get to the Father is thru Him. So, if a jew or a hindu refuse to believe that, I don't think I'm better than they-- but I do think I'm going to be some place that they aren't.

As I noted, I don't belong to some church sect or denomination. I believe in going right to the source of my salvation. That isn't to say that I won't listen to people on occasion or that I don't read lots and lots of literature. I'm about as 'unperfected' as one can get.

I don't understand what you're talking about 'genetic offspring of God' comment is. That whole paragraph I'd like to see an exposition on to help me understand where you're coming from.,

As to the pics of Christ on the Cross.........I'm totally against that. I see them as icons, as idols.........to me it represents Christ dying daily whereas he only had to die once on the cross...that is the only thing I could see that I would consider mocking him. BTW, I've seen pics of Christ showing him with multitudes, praying in Gethsemane, with children, ascending, and certainly at the last supper.

Have you considered that Jesus Christ did NOT have to agree to go to the cross? That he could have said NO? He knew what was coming if he said yes....... He didn't consider himself a victim.

The Pharisees didn't like the idea of him calling them hypocrits; where they were putting man made laws about God's laws--the traditions making void the word of God. This seems to be what you are up in arms about, and that is to your credit if you are. Can you imagine a world where the 10 Commandments were adhered to by all; and that there were not the 50,000 'do do this' and 'don't do that' or the 'buy this prayer shawl for $20 and we'll toss in some anointing oil, too'.

Those who had a foreknowledge of Jesus Christ......they were told of a Messiah and they were thinking of a blood and bones here on earth king like King David, king of a secular nation.

For the record, TTMA.....the Church was a body of people, not a building, or a sect, or a denomination. Outcalled ones is how the greek is translated, I believe. Surely, you can understand that anytime one goes around saying "ALL" or "NEVER" that it will come back to bite ya in the butt--that old broadbrush paint stripe gets us every time.

CAn you provide evidence the Bible is a lie..........just because history has a way of repeating itself doesn't make the cut, so to speak.

I don't think God would 'this' or 'that'.......doing that has us trying to paint him in a box of what WE think He should be doing or thinking. Frankly, I don't worry about when He gets sick and tired of the bullshit down here--that time willl come. I don't much worry about no end time stuff, either--the thing to do is be right with God now--while you can.

The hand of God.........God has given man free will. Along with free will comes responsibility. Evil perps will be dealt with by God on His terms and at the time He selects. So why worry about it--he can do a hell of a lot better job at vengeance that we ever could.

Tommy, do you have kids? If so, did you and the Mrs. have to teach them how to be bad? If so, you're the first person I've ever met that did. That should be a little bit of a hint. We have to teach our kids how to be good.

Anyways, there was something I was going to try to find to share with you and I can't find it....it came to mind as I read and reread your comment regarding the LIARS, THIEVES, the Pharrisees comment. Something I read this afternoon and it had to do with the thought processes of eastern type peoples vs western type peoples. If I can find it, I'll share it with you. It explained much better than I could about how the Israelites thought in terms of Messiah/Christ.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-16   2:27:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I've got to hit the sack......today has been a bummer...........but I do want to respond to you.

I enjoy discussions like this when they don't devolve into the 'rapture monkey' or 'bible thumper' assinine comments. I would really like to know how others view matters.

Will get back tomorrow...

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-16   2:35:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I agree with you particularly in that practioners of every religion seem to have some ignorant conception that their way is right, and the rest are just screwed. Christians seem to be unaware that their religion only makes up 20% of the population. So the Moslems are shit outta luck because they aren't followers of Christ? The Christians scream about abortions, but guess what? It's not IRAN where abortion is legal... It's not Iran that's attacking other nations... It IS Iran where everyone worships God several times a day... Judging by (supposed) Christian standards, sounds like Iranians are better Christians than Christians are...

Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

innieway  posted on  2006-08-16   3:03:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

butting in here with a couple brief points, if you don't mind :)

Jesus Christ, and Christianity is a religion about mocking the victim. Why do you suppose that all of the visuals of Christ are of him on the Cross? It surely isn't to put that thought in your mind that he died for our sins, there are many ways to do that without a representation of him on the cross. Showing that over and over again, is about mocking the victim, who was Christ.

It is Catholicism that favors the crucifix (Jesus 'fixed' onto the 'cross') whereas Protestantism has just the empty cross, each emphasizing their different culture. The Catholic crucifix emphasizes the sacrifice made by Christ whereas the empty Protestant cross emphasizes the resurrection of Christ and His victory over death and sin. Neither mocks victimhood. Christ was not a victim, but rather a willing sacrifice. Both celebrate different aspects of what God through Jesus Christ offers us - forgiveness and salvation.

Saying he died for our sins is a joke compared to the real reason why he died was because of the EVIL of humanity of that time.

Humanity is no less evil today. Arguably it is far more evil (abortion, pornography, corruption, world-wide scale of war, murder, terorrism, etc). God is in fact timeless and the human sin requiring atonement naturally spans all human existence, not just what had accummulated by 30 AD.

Christ didn't die for the sins of humanity. Christ died because OF the inherent sins of those people who lived so long ago,

Christ died for both. He died for all humanity (including you and me) because of all humanities sin (including yours and mine).

and the true evil here, is the lie that has been perpetrated on subsequent generations that believing in this lie of salvation and of the second coming. Jesus is NOT coming back the way the Bible says it. The reason? Because the bible is a lie, and the things that are happening now, were happening then, and there's not a fucking thing that has changed in 2000 years.

I'm not entirely sure of what you do believe, but arguing the bible is a 'lie' is demonstrably false. The historical accuracy of the bible has been proven repeatedly. Aspects remaining to be proven or disproven by science, archeology or history (e.g. Noah's ark) cannot reasonably be construed as 'lies'. The prophectic accuracy of the bible has likewise been proven repeatedly, and again prophecies that are yet future cannot reasonably be construed as 'lies'.

As for the bible's theological doctrines, some like "substitution" can be deduced from a straightforward reading while others like "salvation" can only be proven to each individual who makes the prerequisite step of faith in believing. But even in this case the consequences of salvation (e.g. indwelling Holy Spirit and transformation) are evident to the individual, they're just not verifiable to others, especially other unbelievers. But that doesn't make salvation a lie, just unmeasurable.

The miracles are unprovable, and because they're miracles of God they likewise can not be disproven either. But again that doesn't make them lies.

The logical scientifc or legal mind does not declare as a 'lie' what it can not prove or disprove either way. OTOH because so much of the bible has been proven correct, there is a compelling reason to believe (on faith) that someday the as yet unprovable will likewise be shown to have been correct as well.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-16   10:07:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You're using the dogma you were taught, and that dogma came from people, not from God. Every word in the bible has been changed, meanings changed, everything has changed and to think that it was an exact testament to the word of God is a joke.

Just like every other religious document that has come down the line for the last 3000 years.

The church in Christ's time might have been a group of people who did good things, but I assure you that EVERY church in this country would be engulfed in fire if Christ were to return. They are places not of worship, but of control, and of essentially money laundering. Who do you think funnels money to political candidates? It's free money that rains from heaven to the hands and pocket books of politicians. Yeah, there's a division between church and state alright.

All the crap people have been taught about God, is a lie. This little backwater toilet of a planet that God supposedly created is full of people who shit on the word of God every day, and in a thousand years there'll be another religion that takes its place that will do the exact same thing. You use other people's words to try to make your point and at the same time have absolutely no idea of what your words mean. You twist mine to suit your argument, which is hilarious because you can't make an argument for your faith. You used the term God's footprints. Well, I can see not only God's foot prints, his fingerprints, but I can also see his garbage and horseshit too. I look at it every day when I drive, when I turn on the TV, I hear the bullshit when I turn on the Radio. If God so loved the world, he would have made us all deaf, blind and mute. He wouldn't need to sell a faith or a religion to people.

The only reason Christianity didn't go out the window the same way every other religion is because of the money behind it. MONEY, not faith has been the driving force of every faith in the last 10,000 years. For you to tell me otherwise is laughable. Jesus Christ will no sooner return to the earth in the way the bible says, than Elvis will pop out of his grave and sing Blue Suede Shoes. When people got tired of the human sacrifice stuff, they used animals. When people got tired of using their livestock, they started using money to show God how much they loved him. WOW... I see a pattern here don't you? Religions of all kinds come and go based on the acceptable more's of the day. Which is why people don't pray to a golden calf, or a big owl or something.

I've stated MANY times that I believe in God, just not the God that everyone talks about. The reason? My God is pretty easy to talk to, and doesn't need my money to spread the word. My God really can't be bothered with my needs so I don't need to ask for anything from him other than a guiding hand. I don't pray to be healed, pray for money, pray for any of that other needy crap because frankly My God has bigger fish to fry than to attend to every whining voice he hears.

My God doesn't meddle in the affairs of the world because this planet is pretty insignificant compared to the rest of the universe that he's got to mind over. He has no need for a little patch of land called Israel. He doesn't choose favorites, and he surely doesn't have a CHOSEN people. My God is pretty inclusive, meaning he's prone to ignoring everyone equally. My God doesn't need my money, my fealty, or any of that, because he's GOD. Like I need to tell him how great he is. I think he already knows.

My God doesn't appoint rulers, nor does he need a kingdom on Earth, nor does he need buildings built that are dedicated to his worship. If that were the Case, God would just live on THIS planet instead and things would be a hell of a lot different. The idea of God's genetic offspring is a comment derived by the King's Divine Right, saying that they were direct blood descendants of Jesus Christ, and all that crap. Jesus, even if he had kids would have struck his own children blind or dead out of love of mankind if he'd found out what his so called children used his authority for.

Free Will is great and all, but the contradictions in ALL faiths is what makes me sick to death of any religion that claims to know all the answers. Especially when the God that I've come to know has proven time and again, that there are no absolutes, nor are there always correct answers to every problem. People tout Free Will as an excuse as to why bad people do bad things. God doesn't give people a choice at all when it comes to being good or bad. NOT A CHOICE AT ALL.

What kind of choice would it be if I put a gun to your head, and told you to make a choice between pizza, or chicken, and if you chose Pizza you'd get the bullet? That's not a choice at all is it? Eternal Damnation, or Paradise, Wow, which would you choose? Considering that God seems to be full of Irony, I would bet that Hitler and every other Nazi are in heaven right now, doing God's Laundry. Why? Because what might be your idea of heaven, would be their hell now wouldn't it?

I've read a lot of books on the topic of religion, and I have come to one conclusion. Every religion is a lie. ALL of them are lies. Any time you have people profiting from a faith, that should be your first clue. If every religion were to offer redemption or salvation for free, and every religion were to operate out of someone's home, and every religion were to not only praise God, and actually do some good instead of building more and more churches, then you might see some change in the world, and I might become a believer.

Instead, what I see in front of me, are more of the same liars and cheats that Jesus pissed off a long time ago. They're the same people using faith to get money for their organizations and really aren't doing much to help the community. While churches have their tax exempt status, how much money really goes back into the communities?

What's worse, is the dupes who think they're going to get raptured before Jesus comes back, all the while paying tithe and tribute to a church that could give a shit less about them. I've seen plenty of people who every day practice their "Faith" and expect forgiveness for raping their children, or fleecing their flocks. Chalk that up to free will, or the devil? HELL NO. The devil doesn't exist, and neither does god in the way that people are taught. The devil is an excuse we give to people who do particularly horrible things. We don't want to believe that a human being can do something so vile, but they do, and they do it daily.

True evil, is being ambivalent, or being able to create an excuse for someone's evil, and to me, that is every godforsaken religion in the world. Religion gives you an answer to a problem that doesn't exist. The devil doesn't make you do anything, the devil doesn't whisper things to you, the devil doesn't take control of you, the devil doesn't exist. Everyone has the ability to be good or Evil, and sometimes evil wins. People make bad decisions, and to say that the Devil made someone do it, is to take that responsibility away from some malfunctioning human being. Faith can't save you from yourself, and it can't protect you from being a bad person. If that were the case, every president elected since George Washington would have been sainted.

To me, God is all about self-control, and personal responsibility. Unfortunately, man has subverted that too.

All faiths are about control, and about theft, nothing more. The God I believe in lives and lets live and that's about all I could ask for. Neither giving or taking. Perhaps if people asked less of God, and did more to help themselves, they might find salvation without having to pay some jackass in a black frock for it.

What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-08-16   10:15:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz More indoctrinated dogma. Find God without your bible and I'm pretty sure you'll have a much more enlightened perspective.

Let me know when you have your own words and your own ideas. After all, God gives you free will right? Oh wait... No he doesn't.

What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-08-16   10:20:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz More indoctrinated dogma.

More of your unsubstantiated allegations and presumptions.

Find God without your bible and I'm pretty sure you'll have a much more enlightened perspective. Let me know when you have your own words and your own ideas.

God found me first. I read the bible afterwards, from which comes my persective. The postings I've made do not reflect what I 'hear from the pulpit'.

After all, God gives you free will right? Oh wait... No he doesn't.

Of course He gave us all free will. Do you seriously think your bitterness comes from God? Are you God's sock-puppet, used by Him to snipe and ridicule Himself, or are you doing that all on your own?

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-16   10:33:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I enjoy your posts, as well as AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt's posts, and noone 222's... I learn from all of you guys. I hope that the offerings of insight I give don't offend any of you, and that maybe you can glean something from my posts.

You don't offend ME. I love your posts, and I learn from you and many others. I think that is part of why our age has computers. To learn, and also to teach, in great numbers: Micah 4:1-2, for this is a time of great harvest, but also for separating the wheat from the tares.

We are also in the process of fulfilling that part of the New Covenant that says "and they shall no more say know the LORD, for they shall ALL know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them". I am told by my father and others that I shouldn't believe anything that comes off of here, that this system is the Beast. Well, it may have been intended that way, but the Bible says Let them be caught in the snare they have set for me. Also I will catch them in their craftiness. What the Devil intends for evil, God will turn to his Glory. The NWO HATES it that our message is going out to the whole world. That's why they are planning and ARE censoring it, and may even be planning a whole collapse of it. I hope God will AGAIN catch them in their craftiness.

The whole purpose of God's "chosen" is to be a nation of kings and priests, to teach His ways to the WHOLE WORLD. [If the Kingdom of Heaven was other than on earth, they wouldn't need any priests there, because there would be no one but believers there. Jesus taught us to pray: THY KINGDOM COME, thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven. He also said of Old Jerusalem, My kingdom is not NOW of THIS world. The disciples were waiting for a heavenly kingdom WHOSE BUILDER AND MAKER IS GOD. That Kingdom COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN Rev. 2l.] He told the FIRST Israel they were a chosen people, a kingdom of PRIESTS....

Exd 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:

Exd 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

related verses [note: **** God said to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES, EVERY WORD OF PROPHECY WILL FIND ITS MATE. I think maybe that is something we have neglected to do, or have not understood, that THE OLD TESTAMENT WAS FULFILLED IN JESUS, AND THE CHURCH]:

http://www.blueletterb ible.org/tsk_b/Exd/19/6.html

and it was told to the SECOND Israel:

1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/1Pe/1Pe002.html#9

I did a search at JF&B, and found some more insight on this subject:

".....stone--Peter (that is, a stone, named so by Christ) desires that all similarly should be living stones BUILT ON CHRIST, THE TRUE FOUNDATION-STONE; compare his speech in Act 4:11 . An undesigned coincidence and mark of genuineness. The Spirit foreseeing the Romanist perversion of Mat 16:18 (compare Mat 16:16 , "Son of the LIVING God," which coincides with his language here, "the LIVING stone"), presciently makes Peter himself to refuse it. He herein confirms Paul's teaching. Omit the as unto of English Version. Christ is positively termed the "living stone"; living, as having life in Himself from the beginning, and as raised from the dead to live evermore ( Rev 1:18 ) after His rejection by men, and so the source of life to us. Like no earthly rock, He lives and gives life. Compare 1Cr 10:4 , and the type, Exd 17:6 Num 20:11 .

disallowed--rejected, reprobated; referred to also by Christ Himself: also by Paul; compare the kindred prophecies, Isa 8:14 Luk 2:34 .

chosen of God--literally, "with (or 'in the presence and judgment of') God elect," or, "chosen out" ( 1Pe 2:6 ). Many are alienated from the Gospel, because it is not everywhere in favor, but is on the contrary rejected by most men. Peter answers that, though rejected by men, Christ is peculiarly the stone of salvation honored by God, first so designated by Jacob in his deathbed prophecy.

5. Ye also, as lively stones--partaking of the name and life which is in "THE LIVING STONE" ( 1Pe 2:4 1Cr 3:11 ). Many names which belong to Christ in the singular are assigned to Christians in the plural. He is "THE SON," "High Priest," "King," "Lamb"; they, "sons," "priests," "kings," "sheep," "lambs." So the Shulamite called from Solomon [BENGEL].

are built up--Greek, "are being built up," as in Eph 2:22 . Not as ALFORD, "Be ye built up." Peter grounds his exhortations, 1Pe 2:2, 11 , &c., on their conscious sense of their high privileges as living stones in the course of being built up into a spiritual house (that is, "the habitation of the Spirit").

**** priesthood--Christians are both the spiritual temple and the priests of the temple. There are two Greek words for "temple"; hieron (the sacred place), the whole building, including the courts wherein the sacrifice was killed; and naos (the dwelling, namely, of God), the inner shrine wherein God peculiarly manifested Himself, and where, in the holiest place, the blood of the slain sacrifice was presented before Him. All believers alike, and not merely ministers, are now the dwelling of God (and are called the "naos," Greek, not the hieron) and priests unto God ( Rev 1:6 ). The minister is not, like the Jewish priest (Greek, "hiercus"), admitted nearer to God than the people, but merely for order's sake leads the spiritual services of the people. Priest is the abbreviation of presbyter in the Church of England Prayer Book, not corresponding to the Aaronic priest (hiereus, who offered literal sacrifices). Christ is the only literal hiereus-priest in the New Testament through whom alone we may always draw near to God. Compare 1Pe 2:9 , "a royal priesthood," that is, a body of priest-kings, such as was Melchisedec. The Spirit never, in New Testament, gives the name hiereus, or sacerdotal priest, to ministers of the Gospel.

holy--consecrated to God.

spiritual sacrifices--not the literal one of the mass, as the Romish self- styled disciples of Peter teach. Compare Isa 56:7 , which compare with "acceptable to God" here; Psa 4:5 50:14 51:17, 19 Hsa 14:2 Phl 4:18 . "Among spiritual sacrifices the first place belongs to the general oblation of ourselves. For never can we offer anything to God until we have offered ourselves ( 2Cr 8:5 ) in sacrifice to Him. There follow afterwards prayers, giving of thanks, alms deeds, and all exercises of piety" [CALVIN]. Christian houses of worship are never called temples because the temple was a place for sacrifice, which has no place in the Christian dispensation; the Christian temple is the congregation of spiritual worshippers. The synagogue (where reading of Scripture and prayer constituted the worship) was the model of the Christian house of worship (compare Note, see on JF & B for Jas 2:2, Greek, "synagogue"; Act 15:21 ). Our sacrifices are those of prayer, praise, and self- denying services in the cause of Christ ( 1Pe 2:9 , end).

by Jesus Christ--as our mediating High Priest before God. Connect these words with "offer up." Christ is both precious Himself and makes us accepted [BENGEL]. As the temple, so also the priesthood, is built on Christ ( 1Pe 2:4, 5 ) [BEZA]. Imperfect as are our services, we are not with unbelieving timidity, which is close akin to refined self-righteousness, to doubt their acceptance THROUGH CHRIST. After extolling the dignity of Christians he goes back to CHRIST as the sole source of it....."

Jamieson, Robert; A.R. Fausset; and David Brown. "The First Epistle General of Peter." Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible. Blue Letter Bible. http://www.bluele tterbible.org/Comm/jfb/1Pe/1Pe002.html

-----------------------------------------------------

bit of a sidetrack here:

The spiritual House of God was prophesied to David. David took it to mean he should build a temple. Since God told David he would not build His house because of all the blood he had shed [Zionists take note], David took it upon himself to have Solomon build it, and the two Hirams [this is where the Masonic BS about Hiram Abiff comes in] joined in. They ALL rejected the TRUE stone, Jesus:

1Ki 5:12 And the LORD gave Solomon wisdom, [this has to be tongue-in- cheek. "They have rejected the LORD so what wisdom is in them?" Read some of the Masonic stuff, they always claim to have "wisdom, understanding, and knowledge" (See Exodus 31 and 35); in fact that is where the word "chabad", as in Lubavitcher, as in BS Noahide Law comes from] as he promised him: and there was peace between Hiram [a "STRANGER"/heathen, who should have had no part in building the House of the LORD] and Solomon; and they two made a league together. [still do, IMO: "Edom is in modern Jewery - Jewish Encyclopedia]

1Ki 5:13 ¶ And king Solomon raised a levy out of all Israel; and the levy was thirty thousand men. [no different today. The Jews tax TRUE Israel, the church, particularly that in America, to provide cannon fodder for all their wars of Jewish supremacy, starting with the Revolutionary War, and $$$$ to pay for their PLANNED rebuilding of the Temple and the Sanhedrin, when the Temple, i.e., the True House of the Lord, has been HERE the whole time. Is this insane or what? The WHOLE WORLD has been deceived: Rev. 20:7-10].

1Ki 5:14 And he sent them to Lebanon, ten thousand a month by courses: a month they were in Lebanon, [and] two months at home: and Adoniram [was] over the levy.

1Ki 5:15 And Solomon had threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens, and fourscore thousand hewers in the mountains;

1Ki 5:16 Beside the chief of Solomon's officers which [were] over the work, three thousand and three hundred, which ruled over the people that wrought in the work.

1Ki 5:17 And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, [and] HEWED STONES, to lay the FOUNDATION of the HOUSE.

1Ki 5:18 And Solomon's builders and Hiram's builders did hew [them], and the stonesquarers: so they prepared timber and stones to build the house. http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/1Ki/1Ki005.html#1

Wrong stones! Wrong foundation! Wrong "House".

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

http://www.blueletterb ible.org/tsk_b/1Ki/5/17.html

[Is Zion where they call Him a false prophet, that his mother was a whore, that He performed magic with His membrum, and is burning in excrement in hell, and where it is TO THIS DAY ILLEGAL to preach in His name, where: 'Jesus' name in Hebrew had been changed so that it is now an acronym meaning "Be His Name and Memories Forgotten." ?' http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=32521&Disp=10#C10 ,

OR is it the country that was founded with a cross, and a dedication to Jesus and the SPREADING OF THE GOSPEL: http://www.nps.gov/colo/ca peheny/capeheny.html :

Isa 11:10 — And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

God's Word is in layers upon layers. "His rest" refers again to the prophecies made to David: "Your seed" (Jesus, Galatians 3:16) shall build my "House" (spiritual), and His name shall be "Solomon" (means "peaceable", as in Prince of PEACE Isaiah 9:6-7), and He will be a man of REST. NOAH ALSO means "rest", which is where the counterfeiters of Christ came up with the name for their Noahide Laws, I suppose.

Please see both of these: http://www.blueletter bible.org/tsk_b/Isa/11/10.html and http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Zec/Zec009.html#16 ]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

continuing again with the New Israel, the New Priesthood, the Church:

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

I found the JF&B commentary for that interesting and enlightening as well:

" 10. Adapted from Hsa 1:9, 10 2:23 . Peter plainly confirms Paul, who quotes the passage as implying **** the call of the Gentiles to become spiritually that which Israel had been literally, "the people of God." **** Primarily, the prophecy refers to literal Israel, **** hereafter to be fully that which in their best days they were only partially, God's people.

not obtained mercy--literally, "who were men not compassionated." Implying that it was God's pure mercy, not their merits, which made the blessed change in their state; a thought which ought to kindle their lively gratitude, to be shown with their life, as well as their lips....."

I woke up this morning thinking about the 10 Lost Tribes Doctrines, and while I will always maintain that true Israel is the Church, which includes people of ALL races, I have to admit the Lost Tribes has at least always been intriguing. I don't doubt that a lot of us are physical descendants of Abraham, but how would we know? IMO only God would know. The Israelites were cast out and dispersed, and they FORGOT WHO THEY WERE. Jesus [Isaiah 9:6] may indeed have referred to them when He was talking about the Lost Sheep in Ezekiel 34, BUT He also said He had others not of the flock, and "These too I must bring". So, all the Lost Tribes stuff is irrelevant, if they do not believe in Christ:

Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk003.html#8 .

Look at the promise He made to the Gentiles, TO MAKE THEM PRIESTS AND LEVITES. The Levites were the tribe God chose to be priests. The Israelites at times made PRIESTS OF THE LOWEST OF THE PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT OF THE TRIBE OF LEVI. Under the New Covenant, those who are sons ADOPTED BY FAITH, are ALSO LEGALLY priests of God, and kings to boot. Rev. 5:9-10. THIS is what is so threatening to the Jewish supremacists/Zionists [AND strikes fear in the hearts of committed heathens as well]. He prophesies to reject the fallen priesthood of the Old Covenant, and to raise up the new priesthood:

Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:18 ¶ For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them [note: the holy REMNANT of the Israelite and Jewish nations] unto the nations, [to] Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, [to] Tubal, and Javan, [to] the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them [the GENTILES/NATIONS] for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD......

http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa066.html#21

He's not taking them to Old Jerusalem, the old "heaven and earth" that is not remembered or missed, but to the New Covenant Jerusalem, where He said He would treat them better the second time than at the first [I need to look this one up].

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa 11:10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isa 11:11 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. [see the Two Sticks, Ezekiel 37; See also Isaiah 49:6]

Isa 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Isa 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make [men] go over dryshod.

Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa011.html#11

[This is where the whole world becomes one. He may even recreate land bridges between the continents. Didn't He divide the continents when they built the Tower of Babel. When He has finished building the "Tower of the Flock", it will be safe for all the nations to be joined, for "all nations will walk in the names of their gods [until they see the Truth], but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God forever". Furthermore, they will all have to come up to Jerusalem to worship once a year, or they will receive no rain as punishment. I can just hear the rage of the heathens reading this, at this point. Psalm 2:12, final warning.]

Jer 23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

Jer 23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land. [See also II Samuel 7:10, Ezekiel 34:11-13, John 10].

Amo 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel [note: see Genesis 15:13-14, Gal. 3:16-29, cross at Cape Henry 1607, "The US Is STILL a British Colony, Extorting Taxes for the Crown", apfn.org], and they shall build the waste cities ["wilderness"], and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God. [The usurpers will be removed: Ezekiel 17:1-10, Matthew 15:13].

Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [NWO will become a thing of the past, except there is another prophecy: They shall become your servants, who served themselves of you. Remember, the Levites were supported by the tithes of the rest of the people, NOT TO MENTION that the NWO has been stealing our inheritance for almost 400 years. Some people are prob'ly sh*tting bricks right about now :) ].

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. [resurrection of David and Old Testament faithful, and New Testament saints.]

Just a few of the passages of prophetic Israel and prophetic Jerusalem at http://www.blueletter bible.org/tsk_b/Isa/11/11.html

I need to take a breath.....

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-16   12:32:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I feel that what we're missing today is the same thing that was missing when the Messiah walked the planet. Adherence to God's Laws. From the very start of Scripture man always thought he had a better way than what the Creator asked. From the moment Eve went against the Creator's law and partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil right up to this very day. The Creator made a contract (covenant) with man, and we've violated our end of that contract from day 1. He told us not to eat pork or rabbit or shrimp; but we do. He told us not to pay or charge usury; but we do. He told us not to have hybrid crops or crossbreed cattle; but we do. He told us to keep the Sabbath but we don't. He told us not to worship other gods but we do.

The Messiah attempted to get us back on track and follow His Father's Laws. He even said as much while teaching in the temple - "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet you keepeth not the law?" They weren't then, and we're not now.

I hope you won't be offended, and think I'm picking on you, because I don't mean to. However, God said, "Is not my Word like a fire, that hammereth the rock [THEIR "ROCK"] into pieces?" We all have to hash out His Word, and learn to speak in one voice according to what the Bible says, because the Devil has been dividing us for 2,000 years. So what I am doing is adding my interpretations, and while they may not always be right, I hope they will spark people to think outside the box the Luciferians have created for us.

Here's the hated Paul again:

Gal 3:24 — Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is a serious threat to the Pharisees of the NWO. And doesn't it go along with what Jesus said:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

http://www.blueletterb ible.org/tsk_b/Gal/3/24.html

Jesus FULFILLED the law for us. And "heaven and earth" was the TEMPLE to the Jews. I already went through this one with noone222 on the thread "Should Christians Be Subservient to This Government", and it was all off the top of my head, or more likely off the top of God's head, because I had never researched it before, and it all just came tumbling out, and I don't even remember what I said!

YES, we should obey God's law, but HIS law is Love God with all your heart and soul, and your neighbor as yourself, because ALL the law springs from that, that is the ROYAL LAW of Scripture. If you want more law, look at the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7. That's the New Earth God wants to create.

The Pharisees LOVE it when we preach THE LAW, because that's what they are all about, and have ALWAYS been about, but THEY HAVE NEVER PRACTICED WHAT THEY PREACHED. That is why God threw them out of His Temple, and fought against them, and destroyed their temple, and their city, and their whole abominable system, and will do it again! John 10. Following LAW and not the Gospel of the Kingdom will bring us back into bondage. They can't WAIT to enforce the Noahide LAW!

break....

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-16   13:06:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

what you posted that your father said to you about the internet made me think of these Mencken quotes:

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

Mencken also said, "The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the greatest liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth."

christine  posted on  2006-08-16   13:25:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Re use of the word christian. If asked I would have said I don't believe it is in the Bible. All I see the word meaning is 'little Christs' or 'little followers of Christ'.

The communist labeling is a valid point. However, inasmuch as the other apostles or any of Christs' disciples were wailing and writing against him and his teachings, I would be hard-pressed some 1950 years +/- later to brand him as a phony.

At least, I've found none thus far, though I must say that while I've read the NT several times in the past, I'm just now readying myself to tackle a more indepth study. It's possible I could come away with a complete change in my opinion of Paul. I find his writings more difficult because of his style of reasoning and laying out his argument.

Hitler and Bush.....hell, the liar in chief wouldn't even serve his full term in the air national guard and you expect he would willingly die for 'his' cause? Hitler was spreading evil--not good, and rather than stand up and answer for his actions, he killed himself. As you say, they are different cases.

Yes, man makes mistakes and no, God does not make mistakes. And its for that reason that I accept Paul. Just as I accept David and Abraham as being Gods choices. I don't believe for a moment that God would have allowed a false doctrine from Paul to be left to waylay and lead astray those who were turning to His Son.

Recall that Saul was not God's choice for king for the Israelites. But the people demanded and He aquiesced. Initially Saul followed God, but then he went off and out of God's favor; and God had him slain.

Look at so many of the Israelite kings who wound up leading the people away from God. God had no problem eliminating them and setting up a decent king. Ditto for some of the high priests and priestly lines.

My concern with Paul is not that he was a lawyer (the Bible says tentmaker), which back in those days, meant more than what we think of today. His style of presenting his message is harder for me to wrap around in my mind. But, he isn't the only one I've had difficulty with like this.

The O/T is replete with Hebraic poetry. But I tell ya, their idea of poetry and my idea of poetry are two completely different things. I spent over the last year and a half just going thru the O/T in study. I knew early on something was 'wrong'. It wasn't long before it dawned on me that translation was a major issue. But I kept plugging away with Gods' help. [BTW, now I eagerly wait to go thru it again because of what more I've learned now and want to gain from].

But it isn't just poetic style. It is also the mindset of 'them' vs 'us'. It's 'their' lifestyle and situations vs 'ours'.

This reinforces my thoughts again about Paul......because he was one of them; he understood them; he knew how to speak to them; to bring the point home. If he had been a camel jockey and was able to do all that, more power to him. Weren't all the other apostles 'common' (not in a negative sense) men, i.e., fishermen, and yeah, the tax collector. Paul was very well educated and from a family of stature.

You mention some foods, i.e., rabbit, pork, and shrimp as being unclean. That was in O/T times given to the Israelites. THere were numerous other things, too. And I believe there was a health reason for that, as an aside. However, In Acts 10:10 - 16, Peter was shown a whole bounty of things and told that what God had cleansed was ok to eat.

But, I digress......you are right. Man in his manness, has continually throughtout the ages gone against Gods commandments and laws. Which just goes to show that it is impossible to obtain salvation or everlasting life thru keeping the law(s). As Christ said, even the thought puts you in violation.

That said, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to keep them.

And I must say that I believe much/most/all of the laws (vs the commandments) were given to the nation Israel as tools to illustrate that with God, goodness, rightness, and prosperity come. Many of the laws were given to prevent dissention with the base unit of society--the family. Example: certain marriages banned. Laws on the land use would show that by following God's laws, provision was made for the years there were nothing. Laws on foods no doubt involved health issues--back then there wasn't penicillin and other sorts of 'miracle' drugs.

I'll join with you in saying that I'm not one of the followers of any particular set of standards/creeds/whatever ya want to call it. I am after truth. I believe the more you search, the more you find, which in turn, requires further searching.

As I said last night, I enjoy the discussion back and forth. It helps us all to search further. I'm still a 'babe in the woods' (baby, not doll) because I shut out everything I could for about 40 years. Now, I can't get enough....

So keep on giving your thoughts and opinions.

I find your concept of reading and acting on scriptures interesting. By taking it literally and following the laws, do you have sabbath years for your land? Do you leave some crop in the field for the poor? Have cities of refuge? Offer sacrifices? Do you have unhewn stone altars? Do you celebrate all the feast days and weeks? Do you offer firstfruits?

I found for myself I needed a fuller understanding of what was written, or mayhaps it was given as the result of my praying for guidance and understanding and discernment. I think we all come at life from different perspectives. I can appreciate someone who has a photographic memory, and yet at the same time pity them! Imagine having a page cross in front of you and your mind absorbs every little itty bitty piece. Like here......as I type, the poor photographic memory mind will forever be implanted with the words: "Please report web page problems, questions and comments to http://webmaster2#freedom4um.com"!!!

I envy (yeah) the person that can read a complicated matter and instantly understand it; invariably, and this seems to be more and more of late, I need to read it more than once.

I know people who just instantly believe in Jesus Christ, and others who have to have more--perhaps a whack on the head to gain their attention--but make a determined effort to understand and then join in. I think the 'light' must shine differently for people based on how they, as individuals' operate.

I've rambled enough..........

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-16   13:37:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I always welcome your input Starwind.......you speak with more eloquence or clarity than I ever could.

I appreciate all the effort Tommy you are putting into responding, though granted I'm confused as to why you seem so angry and deal with a lot of broadbrushing, generality, or whatever you wish to call it. There is some of what you say that I agree with, notably the standardized church sects or denominations......I couldn't say all religions because frankly, I've not studied hindu, buddha, islam, etc.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-16   13:45:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I think God is moving among us, because a little while ago, I happened to stumble across something I had printed out some time ago, when, I don't even remember. It is about Paul and his message:

Galatians, Full Page

I prepared the following during my research for the book, "Israel's Identity/Israel's Conversion." The message in Galatians is very clear for those who will study it seeking the truth of the matter of New Testament Israel. I believe you will find the following consistent with Scripture, though certainly not consistent with the prevalent preconceived notions about Israel.....

The Book of Galatians

The Problem Stated

Living 2000 years from the time of the introduction of the Gospel of Christ, we fail to understand the significance of what took place at its introduction. The people of New Testament times, the first church, were Israelites/Jews of the first order. Israel had been thoroughly indoctrinated with the distinction between themselves as Gods chosen people (Jews/Israelites) and the surrounding Gentiles (non-Jews/non-Israelites). The message of Christ that voided the fifteen hundred year distinction created great consternation among those who loved the Lord and the Law of Moses. They just could not grasp the fact that faith in Christ alone, as exemplified by Abraham, made one a member of Gods chosen people and heirs to Gods promise to Abraham. Old Testament Jews/Israelites had no problem with Gentiles worshiping God, but the Gentile had to proselytize to Judaism.

There were Jewish religious leaders who were so convinced that the old distinction between Gods chosen people, Israel, and the Gentiles had to be maintained that they closely followed the spread of the Gospel of Christ over the known world, teaching the new converts that the old distinction between Jews/Israelites and the Gentiles had to be maintained. There are very few New Testament epistles that do not deal with the message of the false teachers who sought to maintain the distinction that Christ destroyed:

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Acts 15:1-5.)

Thus true legalism is adding the works of the law to grace through faith for salvation. Though the false teachers claimed they represented the church at Jerusalem, the Apostles made it clear that they did not send them out:

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: (Acts 15:24. See also, Rom. 9:32.)

Many today also try to maintain the old distinction that existed before Christ between "Gods chosen people (Israel)" and the Gentiles. So, obviously, the very best way to effectively deal with the modern misunderstanding that seeks to maintain that distinction is to use the Word of God.

The Book of Galatians

We would be remiss if we tried to discuss the Israel of God and the promises God gave to Abraham and the heirship to those promises without considering the clear statements by the Spirit through Paul in the book of Galatians. This book is, no doubt, the clearest statement by the Spirit as to the identity of the seed of Abraham, the true Israel of God, and the rightful heirs to the promises of God. As the reader should know, the Christian church of the first 100 years or so was overwhelmingly Jewish/Israelite: It was born out of the old Jewish/Israelite nation. It is evident from the book that the false teachers dealt with by Paul were using everything in their power to persuade the new Christian converts to return to the Jewish religion centered in the Temple at Jerusalem. The false teachers worked very hard to convince the new converts there still remained a Jew/Gentile distinction.

The false teachers were saying that if people wanted to be truly justified, right with God and heir to Abrahams promise, they had to continue in all the Mosaic law, both the moral and the mediation laws: the Ten Commandments and the rituals and sacrifices as established through Moses. They argued against justification by Gods free grace through faith by saying that if Pauls message was true, then individuals could continue in sin. In order to strengthen their own position, the false teachers undermined Pauls authority to establish doctrine contrary to the Jews religion for the new Christian church....."

Whole article: http://www.biblicalexaminer .org/Galatians.htm

For a perfect example of how this is continuing to this very day, how the Pharisees still refuse to enter the kingdom of God, and seek to keep others from entering, if you have not read this article, written by a Jew who rose above it all to become a Christian wiser than serpents, "Do Zionist Christians Know that Jesus' Name Was Changed in Israel?" http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=32521 , by all means, please do so. Therein is the lie that is keeping the whole world in bondage, the lie that allows the Jews to murder and steal "in the name of God" [NOT!]:

"....I thought - Jesus must have committed a very serious crime. Indeed he had. By putting the emphasis on faith and love he seriously threatened the Pharisees - later to be called Rabbis - and their monopoly on the interpretation of the Old Testament.

The Pharisees used their interpretation, called the Talmud, to create a convenient life for their group. For this, Jesus called them hypocrites. It took me a long time to walk the rest of the way to the Christian Church. One of the roadblocks was the Pharisaic propaganda that teaches that Judaism is both a religion and an ethnic group, **** implying thus that a Jew cannot convert. [note: I think this is one of the saddest statements I have ever heard.] A more serious problem was the Christian teaching that we are all sinners. Jews believe they are born perfect; from childhood they are told they are the Chosen People. For a long time I accepted all of the Christian Doctrine, except for that one point. "I didn't kill," I kept telling myself. One day, I tried a semantic exchange and told myself "I am not perfect." The next step was immediate and I understood that I am a sinner because I am imperfect and thus unable to keep any set of religious laws. Expanding on the subject is beyond the scope of this article, but afterwards I completely embraced the Christian World: it is within my mind and, mainly, within my heart.....

It was hard for me to ignore the Zionist influence in Bolivia. Many members of the Pentecostal Churches wear Stars of David - a Hindu symbol for spiritual strength - which was stolen by the Pharisees in a moment of spiritual weakness. Until they heard me speak, many of them confused the State of Israel with the Kingdom of Israel. Classical Christian Theology teaches that the Kingdom of Israel is a spiritual one and that we, people of good faith and loving temperament, are it. The State of Israel is just one more of the tribulations described in the New Testament.

I began explaining, carefully and with love, this poisonous error which Zionism purposely introduces into Christianity. We can all make mistakes or be manipulated into mistakes. On two different occasions, I spotted listeners ripping off their Stars of David. Once, I was told, in tears: "Until I heard you, I didn't feel worthy of God for not having been born Jewish."

This diabolical interpretation - that the State of Israel is the Kingdom - is aggressively pushed by the Zionists internationally....."

Must read!

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-16   14:05:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Yikes! How true. I have to jump to my father's defense though. He is one of the most intelligent men I have ever known. However, he was a small town boy, raised in a different time, when they all thought our government was our friend, and he has always been very loyal in that regard. Little did we know that the whole time they were building a trap all around us. He spent his whole life, in what he thought was the service of his country. It would kill him to know the truth at this point, that he was working for a Private Corporation filled with some of the most Satanic men to ever walk the earth. We've all been had. But isn't it nice to know God foresaw all this, to a T? Kind of hard for an honest person to deny His existence.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-16   14:14:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

TTMA, you very well may have typed or said a million times that you believe in a God. I said that this thread is the first time I've read it. That doesn't make me wrong or a liar--it merely notes that I have not observed prior to this thread that you have said such.

I wasn't taught anything; I didn't have it shoved up my nose, in my ears, or up my butt.

Certainly, the scriptures have been copied, and copied, time and again over the centuries. And in numerous languages. More and more of these manuscripts and fragments are coming to light, thanks to archaeology and the opening of more and more libraries across the world.

Just so you know, translation was one of the major hangups I had as a teenager-- because of school studies that told of the middle ages, and all the religious haggling, and the fight between the church of england and the roman catholic church--I was concerned about 'man' putting their own twist on scripture.

I find it amazing that there is only something like 6,000 differences in words in the comparison of the hebrew bible, the septuagint, and kjv--and when using comparative mms like the syriac peshita, or some aramic and ethioptic or coptic mms. And they have NOT found these affect doctrinal passages. By way of example, say a language doesn't use 'the', in translation to make for ease of reading, the translator adds the word 'the'. Another language may not have a word for 'crimson', so they use the word 'red'.

You, yourself, may think that EVERY church group in America would burn, but I feel pretty confident that you have not visited EVERY church group in America in order to be able to make such a broadbrush statement. It may seem that way to you, but I can assure you, it isn't so.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$....oh yes......that root of all evil. I daresay the military industrial complex kicks into campaign funds, as do lobbyists for various other groups, i.e., pharmaceutical companies, much more than churches do....with churches being defined as one of the standardized denominations or sects.

Basically, the rest of what you wrote seems to me to be an indictment against everything you find wrong or ill with this world. And I concur that there is much wrong on planet Earth. But I sure as hell don't lay the wrong at Gods' feet.

I'm glad you have an easy to talk to God........I do too. And I talk to Him all the time. I share my happies, and my sads.......and I go to Him when someone I know is in need or when I am. It's a great joy to have a loving God who is also just and righteous.....He does it all on His timetable and methodology. I'm so happy that my God wants to hear of me and my woes--that shows He's a caring God--He's not just 'up there somewhere on a throne' waiting to throw a thunderbolt or something.

I'm also happy that He has no problem in chastising or discipling me or even letting trouble come my way. If my faith in Him is not tested, how will I know if it's good enough to get me to the end of the race.

My God doesn't need ANYTHING.....nothing at all......and especially not money! That He wants my trust, my praise is not a problem with me. We're told to spread the gospel, the good news. $$ is a medium by which this can be done, i.e., sending missionaries around the world to spread the Word to those who have not heard it, etc. It also buys airtime for shortwave radios, tv, etc. You surely would concede that these mediums reach a lot further in the world than the door-to-door witnesses, wouldn't you?

There is a very big difference between that type of $$ and the $$ where you send in $$ and a prayer request and they'll pray over it, or for a love offering of X they'll send you a vial of oil or some such.

Rather continue onward with try to discuss various points, Tommy, would you agree that you live your life as you see right, and I'll do likewise. If the world ends up as you think, then neither one of us has lost anything, right? On the other hand, if it ends up as I think it will, one of us is going to be very unhappy.

Best of luck to you and yours....

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-16   14:20:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I do know one thing - the word Christian only appears in Scripture 3 times. And it was never once a word used by the apostles to describe themselves. In each instance it was a name given them by someone else.

just want to point out it was IMPLIED, as well in Ephesians 3:14-15 [Paul again].

Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eph/Eph003.html#15

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Eph/3/15.html

The Creator made a contract (covenant) with man, and we've violated our end of that contract from day 1. He told us not to eat pork or rabbit or shrimp;

Our rabbits will be happy to hear that! We walk out of restaurants that serve rabbit.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-16   15:18:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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