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Title: The "Rapture" Business -- Part Two
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Aug 14, 2006
Author: Enderby
Post Date: 2006-08-14 22:09:58 by Enderby
Keywords: None
Views: 2610
Comments: 146

I was involved, the other day, in another thread here at Freedom4um, in which the discussion turned to the question of whether "the rapture" is a Biblically-supported concept. After exchanging a post or two with Yertle Turtle and Zipporah, I began to wonder whether we were all working from the same definition of "rapture." Having done some reading, I still think that's the problem (definitional differences, that is). 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 says (NASB translation, emphasis added by me): For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The term "rapture" cames from the Latin verb raptus, meaning "to seize, catch, or carry away." The same verb supplies the root of the name of a whole category of birds that get their groceries in this way: "raptors" are eagles, hawks, buzzards, condors, and so on. If we take "rapture" to mean simply a catching-up from above (which, since I am a simple-minded person, is how I understand the term), I don't think there can be much dispute about whether living believers will be removed from the earth's surface and drawn to the Lord, following the general resurrection of the believing dead. I gather, however, from the reading to which Zipporah was kind enough to provide a link, that others have added to that meaning. I am reproducing the text from that link here, and interjecting some comments in italic font.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Does the Bible teach the "Rapture"?

By Donald Hochner

There are many Christians today who would love to be able to escape the troubles of this world. They believe that the Church will be "raptured" just before the great tribulation or the destruction of this world, depending on which "futurist" view you hold to. However, this kind of "escapism" is not taught in Scriptures.

"Rapture," "futurism," and "escapism" haven't been defined yet -- nor will they be in the rest of Mr. Hochner's essay. And that's not good.

Also there is no guarantee in Scriptures that would lead us to believe that the Church will be "caught up" in order to avoid suffering or persecutions because Jesus prayed that the Father would "not to take them (elect) out of the world, but to keep them from evil one" (John 17:15).

But what if there was some other reason for a catching-up? I agree with Mr. Hochner that the church is not promised immunity from suffering and persecution. Indeed, the New Testament is pretty well filled with promises to the contrary: promises that were already being made good for the savagely-persecuted first century church. Also, I think Mr. Hochner is stealing a base by putting that parenthetical "elect" after "them" in John 17:15. As usual, context is everything; this is right in the middle of a chapters-long discourse by Jesus to his twelve disciples at the Last Supper, and the "them" absolutely refers to those disciples. What is said may apply also to believers in general, and it may not ... but the plain and direct meaning of the text is not to be casually "blown off" with a single word in parentheses. Besides, when Jesus says He's not praying for His disciples to be taken out of the world right then, that obviously does not mean that they will never be taken out of the world in any way, at any time. Every one of them died, as have all believers that I know of since then, apart from the small minority of us who are alive today -- and I'm old enough now that I can sort of see my opportunity to sneak off by way of the grave coming up, too.

The "rapture" theme is the most popular and well-known subject among evangelical Christianity. Most believe (I once did) that we will "zoom" up to meet with Christ in the air without experiencing physical death or have our faith tested, to see whether it be real or not. They usually refer the passages in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 as their proof text. But I believe they have taken these verses out of context. Most futurist's views have fallen short in their failure to properly take into account the historical-grammatical and cultural context of the prophecies; specifically what they meant to their first century audience.

In order to understand the passage in 1 Thes. 4:13-18, we must understand the overall view of this epistle by Paul and the NT writers before we come to any conclusion. These passages will be our anchor for this brief study. We cannot look at all the instances for this would be time consuming, and the space required would be prohibitive. You may be able to discern more of the meaning after reading what I have written.

Of course, we must go back into the beginning of this epistle of 1 Thessalonians. It was Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy's greeting to the church of the Thessalonians in the first century (about AD 50's). Anytime you see the word "we", it means Paul, Silvanus, Timothy, and the brethren in their time, not to us as the readers in the present time. Keep in mind that the NT was written for us, not to us.

Very true ... and Mr. Hochner might have wanted to keep that in mind himself, when he inserted his personal assumption into John 17:15, as I noted above.

Paul wrote in this epistle, that they were "in much tribulation" (1:6). They had already "suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amid much opposition" (2:2). From what quarter was the persecution? It was from the apostate Jews. This can be found in this epistle:

"For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the Prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost" (2:14-16).

Does the phase "fill up the measure of their sins" in verse 16 ring a bell? Yes it does. This can be found in Matt. 23:

"Consequently you bear witness against yourself, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zecheriah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things shall be upon this generation" (vv. 31-36).

We must remember the context in which those words were spoken. Jesus told the scribes and the Pharisees "Behold, your house [temple] being left to you desolate!" in their generation (vv. 36, 38). Either we have to say it is all future (and make Jesus a liar for saying any of it would occur in that generation), or make it all fulfilled at AD 70 (and preserve the integrity of Jesus).

Also there is another connection in James 5:

"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and put death the righteous man; he does not resist you" (vv. 1-6).

James was the leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. He warns the apostate Jews to turn into the Lord, otherwise they'll face the wrath of God because they were living in the last days of the Old Covenant system. We know that the temple and the Old Covenant system was burned by fire during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Obviously, the word "you" was referring to the Jewish people in the first century, to which James was speaking, and not to us. Read the next few verses:

"Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rain. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; Behold, the judge is standing at the door" (James 5:7-9).

Lastly this also can be found in Rev. 18:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying 'Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues, for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities" (vv. 4-5).

Who is this harlot, Babylon the great? Most in the futurist camp would say Rome, the future apostate Christianity. Not quite! The Bible has the answer as to the identity of the great city referred to. Rev. 11:8 says the great city (see Rev. 14:8; 16:19; 17:1, 18; 18:2) which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified. It was Jerusalem, without a doubt. The harlot was apostate Israel because of her rejection of the Son of God. Before Christ died on the cross, the Jewish people cried and "prophesied" against themselves saying: "His blood be on us and on our children" (Matt. 27:25). They didn't realize what they were saying, as after 40 years (a generation) later God was accomplishing all things as the OT and the NT had predicted (Luke 21:22, 32).

In addition, what about the phase "wrath has come upon them (apostate Jews) to the utmost" in same verse in 1 Thes. 2:16? Paul even mentioned this two other times in this epistle:

"And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes. 5:9).

This also can be found in Matthew 3 when John the Baptist warns to the Jews:

"But when he (John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers (see also in Matt. 23), who warned you to flee from the wrath [about] to come?"

...And,

"the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire". ...And, "His (Jesus) winning fork is in His hand, and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (vv. 7, 10,12).

Obviously, John the Baptist was warning the apostate Jewish people.

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians not to be disturbed by these afflictions because they believed that God had destined them for this and it came to pass (1 Thes. 3:3-4, 7). They knew it was according to God's purpose predestined to occur.

Note that Paul was saying that the Lord "may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the *coming* of our Lord Jesus with all His saints (1 Thes. 3:13). The word "coming" is very important and we cannot overlook this one. The Greek word for "coming" is parousia. It is mentioned 17 times reference to the coming of Christ, four of them in this epistle (1 Thes. 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23). If you are a futurist, whether you are Premill, Postmill, or Amill: how many "comings" do you believe will occur?

I have to interrupt at this point to complain about the jargon. "If you are a futurist," he says ... how am I supposed to know whether he's talking to me or not? He keeps using these terms without defining them. "Premill, Postmill, or Amill" ... not only not defined, but he can't even be bothered to spell them out.

From my experience (I was one of them), futurists believe there are two or more "comings" of Christ whether they realize or not. Let me explain what I mean. If you are a pretribulation Premill (or a Dispensationalist), there are three different comings of Christ in the future. You may say, "No way!" I'll show you what I mean with the Greek word "parousia" in these passages:

1. The second coming of Christ in the pretribulation rapture: *1 Thes. 2:19 *1 Thes. 3:13 *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *2 Thes. 2:1 (see below after 7 years of great tribulation) *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28

2. The third coming of Christ after 7 years of great tribulation: *Matt. 24:27-31, 37-39 *2 Thes. 2:8

3. The fourth coming of Christ after 1,000 years *1 Cor. 15:23-24 (most aren't sure of this) *2 Peter 3:10-13

So, they believe there are three comings of Christ in the future. Would you agree with that? Does the Bible teach that? I have shown this to some futurist brethren, and their eyes didn't even blink! They were speechless.

As for the moderate or "inconsistent" preterist (Postmill or Amill), they believe two "comings" of Christ, one in AD 70 to judge Israel; but the literal, final coming of Christ is still in the future according to their creeds or the traditions of men. I'll show you:

1. In AD 70: *Matt. 24:27-31 (some are sure about vv. 37-39) *2 Thes. 2:1 *2 Thes. 2:8 *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28

2. In the future: *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *1 Cor. 15:23-25 *2 Peter 3:10-13

Look closely for the futurist's theological gymnastics here, then ask yourself if the first century brethren would have understood two or more different comings being spoken of using exactly the same Greek word and terminology. If the NT writers understood two or more different comings separated by different periods of time, we would expect them to stop somewhere and explain to this us. Since they did not do that, we must assume the same coming is under consideration. More on that shortly.

Tell me, dear reader, if this makes sense to you. Paul writes to the Thessalonians and informs them "to wait for His Son from heaven" who delivers them "from the wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10) even if it did not occur in the first century? Those in the futurist camp would say that there is what has now been an almost 2,000 years gap, because "those things simply didn't happen" when the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in AD 70. I would counter with this: Paul says that they (first-century brethren) should wait for the Son. Would it make sense to inform the first-century brethren to wait for the Son, if His coming was to happen in our time? That would be pointless to the Thessalonians, and it would make Paul's informing them useless, because these men would only come in our time.

Now, we'll do a little study on 1 Thes. 4:13-5:11. Please make sure you have the Bible in hand, verifying all that is taught to you (Acts 17:11).

This may change the way you view the fulfillment of prophecy, perhaps even the way you view the whole Bible, as it did for me.

I believe there is a connection between 1 Thes. 4:15-17, Matt. 24:30-31, 1 Cor. 15:50-5 and Rev. 11:15 as being the same event in AD 70 because of the last "trumpet of God":

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming [parousia] of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15-17).

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, the all the tribes of the earth [land] will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the our winds, from one end of the sky to the other" (Matt. 24:30-31).

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:50-52).

"And the seventh (trumpet) angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15 and read vv. 16-19).

Also, I think it would be easier for us if we can make a comparison between parallel passages such 1 Thes. 4-5 and Matt 24:

1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16 4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17 7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17 8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2 9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4 10. Unbelievers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3 11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3 12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4 13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7

Do these parallel passages cause your jaw drop to the ground? The conclusion is inescapable that 1 Thes. 4-5 is dealing with exactly same coming, judgment, and resurrection that Matt. 24 is.

If we don't relocate this prophecy of Matt. 24 into our future, then it was a prophecy to them, who were there at the Mount of Olives, when Jesus spoke, that is: in "that generation" (Matt. 24:34). We must compare Scriptures with Scriptures to interpret them properly. It does not matter what you or I may think, but what saith the Scripture? I do not care what the "prophecy experts" may say; it is the Word of God, "sola scriptura" that makes the decision for me. The futurists realize that a true analysis of biblical text related to the timing of prophetic events endangers their eschatological position.

You might ask, "but doesn't the Bible say that we shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air?" Yes it does, but what does the word "air" means? Is it in our atmosphere or the air we breath?

Well, I'm just a simpleminded man, but I would suppose from reading 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that the "air" being referred to here is the kind of "air" that contains "clouds." Now, maybe those "clouds" can be spiritualized away too. But what happened to the exegetical principle that the plain and straightforward meaning of a text is the preferred one?

We can compare with other Scriptures in Eph 2:2: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." The word "air" is an another word for heavenly or spiritual realm. Satan was always an opponent of the scheme of the redemption as we can see throughout the Bible. He was (but is no longer) the prince of the power of the air. In Rom. 16:20 Paul says that Satan would be crushed "shortly" (see Gen 3:15). Jesus now has taken over that sphere and rules in the "air" with the saints since the destruction of Jerusalem. If that is the same "air" where the saints were to meet and be gathered, then there is no necessity for us to believe that the rapture gathering and meeting was to be physical and visible either. It was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the ingrafted Gentiles was transformed (and transferred) into Christ's new spiritual Israel (new covenant) when the old fleshly-based (old covenant) was taken away in AD 70. The "gathering together" is the heavenly places in Christ - the spiritual kingdom of God. Satan is no longer around here; he is now in the lake of fire.

Also notice what Paul wrote: "By the word of the Lord, thatwe who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord" in both verses 15 & 17 of 1 Thessalonians. They were expecting of an imminent parousia in their lifetime. We need to step back out of our 20th century mindset and stop looking at the NT as if it was written in our generation. Otherwise Paul was mistaken and not an inspired writer. The Bible is inerrant, infallible, and sufficient.

As we have seen 1 Thes. 5 cannot be isolated from the context of 1 Thes. 4. 2 Thessalonians cannot be ignored either. In this context (1 Thes. 4:13-5:11) Paul calls this parousia, "the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15) and the "day of the Lord" (1 Thes. 5:2 with numerous passages in the OT and the NT) and says it will be like "a thief in the night" (see Matt. 24:42-44; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 3:3) with "birth pangs" (1 Thes. 5:2-3) in the same event during the first century. The "destruction" of Jerusalem had come upon them in AD 70 (1 Thes. 5:3) from the Roman armies as God's instrument.

In conclusion, there is no evidence in the NT that teaches the two comings of Christ in the first century and another one in the future. Also, nowhere is there any mention of a multi-coming of Christ like as the Dispensationalist system claims (parousia or "rapture" before 7 years of tribulation, the parousia after the great tribulation and the parousia at the end of 1,000 years).

The word "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible, neither is it taught there.

Ah, now where have I heard an "argument" like that before? Why, I believe it was the last time I had a crew of Jehovah's Witnesses in my living room, explaining solemnly that the word "trinity" appears nowhere in Scripture. And they're correct, as far as that goes; it's just that the doctrine of the trinity is supported so extensively by Scripture. I'm always ready to hear a reasoned argument that says I've misunderstood 1 Thessalonians 4, or any other part of the Bible; but I'm short on patience with "the word '[fill in word here]' isn't in the Bible. Mr. Hochner should confine himself to honest arguments.

There is no Scriptural support for this kind of dream, and we should reject it outright. This escapist philosophy is pure fiction. We are not taught to escape reality in the Scripture, but rather to face it knowing that God will work all things out for our good (Rom. 8:28-30).

Mr. Hochner's argument depends on his attribution of base motives to those who disagree with him: they are "escapist philosophers;" they want to "escape reality." I'm sure that is true of some who disagree with him; I am equally sure it is not true of others.

He is our sovereign God and nothing can happen to thwart His plan. To say otherwise is blasphemy to God.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Donald Hochner

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I don't really have much of a detailed eschatological position. While I am convinced that God is going to wrap up this phase of the story at some point, after two millennia of church history, I guess my feeling is that it's pretty unlikely that it (the conclusion) would happen during my brief lifetime on the planet's surface. I think that the Bible's instructions for Christians are quite plain, are repeated many times, and I don't see that there's anything about the way I should live, or the manner in which I should attempt obedience to my redeemer that depends in any way on the details of how God is going to finalize history. I think that exchanging views about these matters is a fine exercise in logic, reasoning, and scholarship -- as long as the exchange is conducted with respect and charity. Sadly, that's seldom how it's done.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 93.

#38. To: Enderby (#0)

James was the leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. He warns the apostate Jews to turn into the Lord, otherwise they'll face the wrath of God because they were living in the last days of the Old Covenant system. We know that the temple and the Old Covenant system was burned by fire during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Obviously, the word "you" was referring to the Jewish people in the first century, to which James was speaking, and not to us. Read the next few verses:

The underlined words in the above quote are very misleading in that James says (KJV) in James 1:1:

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

(ASV) Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.

(GNB) From James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ: Greetings to all God's people scattered over the whole world.

(CEV) From James, a servant of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ. Greetings to the twelve tribes scattered all over the world.

He is not addressing his comments to the jews or christians in jerusalem, but to the israelites scattered abroad, which would be those taken in the Assyrian dispersion, and the Babylonian which refused to return, as well as any others that had gone elsewhere, whether thru captivity, i.e., Egypt, or migrated on their own initiative.

Furthermore, 10 of those tribes were NOT jewish (jewish being defined as being from judea for this comment). They were israelites, meaning from the northern kingdom, rather than the southern kingdom where jerusalem is.

So, obviously the word 'you' is NOT referring to jewish people in the first century as those to whom james was addressing.

Technically this may have nothing to do with the meat of the non-rapture or rapture discussion, but it tells me I'd have to research ALL this author is purporting.......which is OK because I don't take none of them as the only RIGHT opinion.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-15   11:42:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: rowdee (#38)

I agree, Rowdee. And in general, without regard to the main point that he's trying to make, I found Mr. Hochner's work to be both slipshod and contentious.

On the other hand, none of the epistles are actually addressed to us; yet most of what is said can be applied to us. I guess the "bottom line" is that some discernment is called for. As with everything in life, that is.

Enderby  posted on  2006-08-15   12:06:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Enderby, Starwind, AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt, Rowdee, Red Jones, Jethro Tull, Indie TX (#39)

I agree, Rowdee. And in general, without regard to the main point that he's trying to make, I found Mr. Hochner's work to be both slipshod and contentious.

On the other hand, none of the epistles are actually addressed to us;

I agree too that Mr. Hochner's work is something to be "wary" of. In Rowdee's response in #37, it is pointed out that Peter is adressing the Tribes of Israel. So couldn't it be adressing us, if indeed we are of those Tribes? If it were possible to trace it that far back, there are no doubt descendants of those Tribes walking the planet today. AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt addressed this issue of True Israel in another post.

When it comes to the "rapture", I think it's BS. The particular verse(s) used to support this "theory" are taken from the writings of Paul. When it comes to the writings of Paul, I feel a GREAT deal of discernment are in order. After all, many of his writings tend to fly in the face of all the rest of Scripture.

Paul was sent to Jerusalem at about the age of ten to attend the rabbinical school of Gamaliel, who was the son of Simeon the son of Hillel. Hillel, (the grandfather of Gamaliel), held that tradition was superior to the Law. Gamaliel was a most eminent rabbi who was mentioned both in the Talmud and in the New Testament (Acts 5:24-40; 22:3). Gamaliel was called Rabban - one of only seven teachers so called. He was a Pharisee, (remember the warnings of the Messiah about the Pharisees?) but he rose above party prejudice. He composed a prayer against the Christian "heretics". He lived and died a Jew. The religious school of Gamaliel (Hillel) was chiefly oral and usually had a prejudice against any book but Scripture. They used a system of Scriptural exegesis, and Josephus in his writings expressed the wish to have such a power of exegesis. When school was in session, learned men met and discussed scriptures, gave various interpretations, suggested illustrations, and quoted precedents. The students were encouraged to question, doubt, even contradict. From his education, both from Gamaliel and in the desert from the Messiah, Paul developed a divine viewpoint attitude toward human history.

Back to the topic of rapture. As I have posted before (and not wanting to search all my posts to find the thread) wouldn't it be a bit more prudent to forego whatever Paul's writings may be interpreted to say and use the teachings of the Messiah Himself? After all we see in 2 Peter (note, NOT a writing of Paul).... 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

So about the "rapture" as taught by the Messiah: Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That sure doesn't sound like all those "rapture believers" have a whole hell of a lot to look forward to. Maybe they should get out of those churches full of masonic symbolism, where they're learning Babylonian Talmudic teachings in disquise by some pulput parrot, and put their noses in Scripture and STUDY to show themselves approved as we were told to do. Hey, if they don't want to do that, then they can't complain about the spanking they get. After all what Father worth his salt won't discipline his kids when they don't do as they're told!!!!

I intended to end this post at the paragraph above, but feel I need to add a bit more.

When it comes to the writings of Paul, I am extremely leery.. Satan knows Scripture better than any of us, and it's certainly NOT beyond his scope to use them in some way to deceive us if he can. Considering Paul's history, I think his writings present that opportunity. When I see something written by Paul which is in direct conflict/opposition with what the entire rest of Scripture says, I find it suspect. Look at grace, which Paul spoke so much of. In ALL of Old Testament, the word grace came from the Hebrew chen an adjective meaning favored; in Paul's writings it came from the Greek word charis a verb meaning an act of gratification..... I find it conceivable that the Creator could indeed find favor in some people, but I find it very hard to believe that ANY of us have done anything so special that He should be in gratification of it - let alone ALL of us with the only requirement being to believe in Him. Just my 2¢

innieway  posted on  2006-08-15   16:41:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: innieway (#45)

Had Paul not come along when he did, do you believe that christianity would have survived? Reverted back to judiasm? Or what?

I can't believe that the man, or any man, would go to his death hawking a lie.

I don't have a problem with his background, i.e., Roman citizen, judaism/pharisee, Benjamite. His educational background made him, IMO, a great candidate to be converted and put to use for Christ's benefit.

I've been trying to do a lot of background reading the past couple of weeks-- before starting a deeper study of the N.T. One thing I believe many miss, and I'm not saying that you do, or any number on this board do, is that we really need to try to look through the eyes of the people at THAT time. We can't place todays' values on how it was back then. Right now, I'm thinking of sacrifices. Most people in this nation abhor bloodshed, it's repulsive. And yet, it was very much a part of the sacrificial system back in O/T times. Blood signified 'the life of the soul'.

I go round and round with a cousin over this. Hey, I'm not crazy about seeing blood or shedding blood--even for juicy steaks or lamb chops! But, I see the symbolism this represented as a forerunner of what Christ would do. Cousin still can't see this. I just have to tell him that when he becomes God, he can do it his way.

That was what to me was remarkable about the apostles. Even Judas died an ugly death. But none of them denied Jesus Christ or his message....even though faced with terrible deaths.

It would have been a lot easier back then to 'back out' or deny what they had been teaching/preaching.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-15   22:43:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: rowdee (#55)

Had Paul not come along when he did, do you believe that christianity would have survived? Reverted back to judiasm? Or what?

Hmmmmmm.... I don't know. I do know one thing - the word Christian only appears in Scripture 3 times. And it was never once a word used by the apostles to describe themselves. In each instance it was a name given them by someone else. If someone calls you a communist (just because you've read The Communist Manifesto, or happen to know a lot about it) - doesn't mean that you ARE a communist.

What about Bush, Hitler, et al? OK, I know they are of a whole different ilk to start with, but... ALL men are liars. Well, at least according to Paul. But he's right. Not that a person may intentionally be lying, but it happens. I'm sure we've all had a situation where something happened that we would have bet the house on, and later found out we were wrong. Wasn't intentional - man makes mistakes. God doesn't.

His background did make him a GREAT candidate to teach to the ones he was sent to teach! Remember, Paul was a lawyer. And lawyers are very adept at clever wording to convince others of their arguement. He HAD to, or else there was NO hope of achieving his goal. That alone makes Paul's writings considerably more difficult to deal with. How many lawyers do you really trust?

I feel that what we're missing today is the same thing that was missing when the Messiah walked the planet. Adherence to God's Laws. From the very start of Scripture man always thought he had a better way than what the Creator asked. From the moment Eve went against the Creator's law and partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil right up to this very day. The Creator made a contract (covenant) with man, and we've violated our end of that contract from day 1. He told us not to eat pork or rabbit or shrimp; but we do. He told us not to pay or charge usury; but we do. He told us not to have hybrid crops or crossbreed cattle; but we do. He told us to keep the Sabbath but we don't. He told us not to worship other gods but we do.

The Messiah attempted to get us back on track and follow His Father's Laws. He even said as much while teaching in the temple - "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet you keepeth not the law?" They weren't then, and we're not now.

It does seem to me that the ones that claim to be christian seem to quote from Paul a great deal, even more than they quote from the Messiah Himself. I'm not saying you do, or anyone else in particular, just a general observation.

I don't claim to be christian. I'm not jew, amish, or any "organized" religion. They all have a certain "standard", and I don't ascribe to those standards. I am very spiritual. I study Scripture. I'm not the sharpest tack in the box, and all I'm after is the truth. I think we're ALL in pursuit of the truth.

I enjoy your posts, as well as AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt's posts, and noone 222's... I learn from all of you guys. I hope that the offerings of insight I give don't offend any of you, and that maybe you can glean something from my posts. My method of study is really quite simple - I don't interpret any of it; to do so in my opinion is to create a diversion, and allow the opportunity to fall from truth. I take it all literally. When He said don't wear fabrics mingled of woollen and linen; I take that seriously, and make sure what I wear is 100% cotton or whatever. I feel if we lived by the Law the Creator gave us in the first place, there would never have been need for the sacrifice of His Son, hence I place considerably less importance on New Testament than Old, save for the actual teachings of the Messiah Himself. But I have found the Messiah reinforced the Mosaic Law, not contradict it.

I realize my beliefs place me in a very tiny minority, and I accept that. And I think He has rewarded me for that. Adhering to His Laws has kept me from participation in the abundant Babylonian Talmudic nonsense we're surrounded with, and I thank the Creator everyday for it.

innieway  posted on  2006-08-16   2:22:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: innieway (#69)

Re use of the word christian. If asked I would have said I don't believe it is in the Bible. All I see the word meaning is 'little Christs' or 'little followers of Christ'.

The communist labeling is a valid point. However, inasmuch as the other apostles or any of Christs' disciples were wailing and writing against him and his teachings, I would be hard-pressed some 1950 years +/- later to brand him as a phony.

At least, I've found none thus far, though I must say that while I've read the NT several times in the past, I'm just now readying myself to tackle a more indepth study. It's possible I could come away with a complete change in my opinion of Paul. I find his writings more difficult because of his style of reasoning and laying out his argument.

Hitler and Bush.....hell, the liar in chief wouldn't even serve his full term in the air national guard and you expect he would willingly die for 'his' cause? Hitler was spreading evil--not good, and rather than stand up and answer for his actions, he killed himself. As you say, they are different cases.

Yes, man makes mistakes and no, God does not make mistakes. And its for that reason that I accept Paul. Just as I accept David and Abraham as being Gods choices. I don't believe for a moment that God would have allowed a false doctrine from Paul to be left to waylay and lead astray those who were turning to His Son.

Recall that Saul was not God's choice for king for the Israelites. But the people demanded and He aquiesced. Initially Saul followed God, but then he went off and out of God's favor; and God had him slain.

Look at so many of the Israelite kings who wound up leading the people away from God. God had no problem eliminating them and setting up a decent king. Ditto for some of the high priests and priestly lines.

My concern with Paul is not that he was a lawyer (the Bible says tentmaker), which back in those days, meant more than what we think of today. His style of presenting his message is harder for me to wrap around in my mind. But, he isn't the only one I've had difficulty with like this.

The O/T is replete with Hebraic poetry. But I tell ya, their idea of poetry and my idea of poetry are two completely different things. I spent over the last year and a half just going thru the O/T in study. I knew early on something was 'wrong'. It wasn't long before it dawned on me that translation was a major issue. But I kept plugging away with Gods' help. [BTW, now I eagerly wait to go thru it again because of what more I've learned now and want to gain from].

But it isn't just poetic style. It is also the mindset of 'them' vs 'us'. It's 'their' lifestyle and situations vs 'ours'.

This reinforces my thoughts again about Paul......because he was one of them; he understood them; he knew how to speak to them; to bring the point home. If he had been a camel jockey and was able to do all that, more power to him. Weren't all the other apostles 'common' (not in a negative sense) men, i.e., fishermen, and yeah, the tax collector. Paul was very well educated and from a family of stature.

You mention some foods, i.e., rabbit, pork, and shrimp as being unclean. That was in O/T times given to the Israelites. THere were numerous other things, too. And I believe there was a health reason for that, as an aside. However, In Acts 10:10 - 16, Peter was shown a whole bounty of things and told that what God had cleansed was ok to eat.

But, I digress......you are right. Man in his manness, has continually throughtout the ages gone against Gods commandments and laws. Which just goes to show that it is impossible to obtain salvation or everlasting life thru keeping the law(s). As Christ said, even the thought puts you in violation.

That said, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to keep them.

And I must say that I believe much/most/all of the laws (vs the commandments) were given to the nation Israel as tools to illustrate that with God, goodness, rightness, and prosperity come. Many of the laws were given to prevent dissention with the base unit of society--the family. Example: certain marriages banned. Laws on the land use would show that by following God's laws, provision was made for the years there were nothing. Laws on foods no doubt involved health issues--back then there wasn't penicillin and other sorts of 'miracle' drugs.

I'll join with you in saying that I'm not one of the followers of any particular set of standards/creeds/whatever ya want to call it. I am after truth. I believe the more you search, the more you find, which in turn, requires further searching.

As I said last night, I enjoy the discussion back and forth. It helps us all to search further. I'm still a 'babe in the woods' (baby, not doll) because I shut out everything I could for about 40 years. Now, I can't get enough....

So keep on giving your thoughts and opinions.

I find your concept of reading and acting on scriptures interesting. By taking it literally and following the laws, do you have sabbath years for your land? Do you leave some crop in the field for the poor? Have cities of refuge? Offer sacrifices? Do you have unhewn stone altars? Do you celebrate all the feast days and weeks? Do you offer firstfruits?

I found for myself I needed a fuller understanding of what was written, or mayhaps it was given as the result of my praying for guidance and understanding and discernment. I think we all come at life from different perspectives. I can appreciate someone who has a photographic memory, and yet at the same time pity them! Imagine having a page cross in front of you and your mind absorbs every little itty bitty piece. Like here......as I type, the poor photographic memory mind will forever be implanted with the words: "Please report web page problems, questions and comments to http://webmaster2#freedom4um.com"!!!

I envy (yeah) the person that can read a complicated matter and instantly understand it; invariably, and this seems to be more and more of late, I need to read it more than once.

I know people who just instantly believe in Jesus Christ, and others who have to have more--perhaps a whack on the head to gain their attention--but make a determined effort to understand and then join in. I think the 'light' must shine differently for people based on how they, as individuals' operate.

I've rambled enough..........

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-16   13:37:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: rowdee (#80)

I would be hard-pressed some 1950 years +/- later to brand him as a phony.

Me too.

He sure didn't. He told us He's a jealous God. Better play right, or the game can get mighty rough.

Translation is a HUGE issue. There are over 170 MIStranslations in the Scriptures. One is the word rib in the story of the creation of Eve. The literal translation of the Hebrew word is curve. But I'm sure that in 1611 it made no sense to the translators that curve was what was written. "And God took a curve from Adam".... I bet that one had them scratching their head a while. They settled on rib because that's all that made sense to them. Of course it didn't even make sense to the writer either I bet. After all he obviously didn't mean a rib bone or else he would have said that. He used the word bone in the next paragraph. With modern science we now know about the helix - the DNA curve. NOW it makes sense!! Same for the word Easter, albeit this was an INTENTIONAL mistranslation. The translators could NOT find anything about Easter anywhere!!! Since it was already a "christian" practice in 1611, they had to justify it somehow, and they deliberately mistranslated pascha (passover) into the word Easter... SHAME SHAME!!! But we caught it!!

Not really as an aside at all. It was a health reason period. Still is. The quote from Acts 10 is misunderstood. Of course, what God had cleansed was OK to eat. But it doesn't say pork et al was cleansed. Peter knew it too. In a minute, I will show you how YOUR quote reveals that indeed we should still obey the food laws.

Why???? Not because it's impossible, more like we don't WANT to. We can always find an excuse. He told us not to wear fabrics mingled of woollen and linen. Ever try to find socks made of one single fabric?? It's easy to find 'em that are 99% cotton, 1% rayon... BUT I'm here to tell ya - they DO exist!!!! EXCUSES..... Man's fatal flaw.

ALL of the Creator's Laws were given us with our prosperity in mind. He didn't give them to us for His benefit!! He told us not to eat fat. Why? We know now that fat clogs the arteries. It leads to heart disease!!! DAMMIT, sure makes the steak taste good... He made DOGS capable of eating fat, but not man.... Maybe that's why He made dogs!! There is NOTHING, and I do mean NOTHING that is in our 2 MILLION laws in the US (in our roman civil law) that is NOT covered in God's Laws.. From Family Law, to Travel (including insurance and the rest of the transportation code) to Societal Law, to Health Code........ He had it ALL covered with only 759 Commandments, Statutes, and Judgements.. I promised to show the food laws reason of uncleanness. Look at your quote. TRUE, we now have penecillin (ivermectin is used abundantly in hogs) which "deal" with the trichonosis which pigs are a major carrier of... Trichonosis is a parasite which can burrow into the human brain causing death!! Nasty little bug!! So now we can kill it with ivermectin. BUT, ivermectin is a toxin. So NOW we're eating a pork chop that has POISON in it.. And we wonder why cancer rates keep climbing... Sure you may be able to eat a little poison every day without dying right away, but as it builds up...... Pork wans't clean for us then, and it still isn't now. Ditto for all the things He told us NOT to eat. If He said don't do it, we'll live healthier if we DON'T do it. Besides He also told us to NOT partake in witchcraft... The word witchcraft (another of those translation issues) is translated from the Greek word PHARMAKIA...... These damned doctors are practioners of witchcraft and the PHARMACEUTICALS they dispense are nothing but snake venom!! Ever notice the symbol of the doctors is 2 snakes climbing up a pole?? That itself SHOULD give us a clue.... God told us He gave us all we need.... NATURAL REMEDIES are what we should practice.

Yes. And no. An explanation is in order. Yes if it applies on a personal level.

The land Sabbatical is every 7 years. Last year was one. I never harvest all of a crop (I leave some in the corners). I don't have ANY cities, but that isn't something to be done on a personal level. It's a national thing, and unfortuneately we simply don't follow Mosaic Law in the US. I try to avoid having to do sacrifices (see post # 87). I don't celebrate christmas, easter, new years, fourth of july, my birthday, thanksgiving, labor day, memorial day, or any other of the "official" holidays.. The word holiday is taken from "Holy Days". The Creator gave us days which were to be kept as memorials and feasts unto Him - Holidays... I DO observe Passover, Pentecost, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Trumpets, Feast of Tabernacles, Day of First Fruits, Day of Atonement, the Sabbath (which is sundown Friday till Sundown Saturday, NOT Sunday. Sunday is the PAGAN day of the sun - sun worship) etc... That's how screwed up we've gotten - we don't even know how the days run anymore. As pointed out immediately in Genesis "evening came, morning followed, the first day".... Days don't start at midnight, they start at sundown. And even Webster's dictionary will tell you Sunday is the FIRST day of the week. God rested on the SEVENTH day, and made it His Sabbath.

And I have the 10 Commandments posted at my gates, and only 1 altar is necessary, and I don't participate in the census, nor take vaccinations, nor participate in the SS system, nor have a DL, nor worship (compound word from ship and worth) other gods (ie, ship worth to the god called government, ie pay taxes) nor raise hybrid vegetables in my garden, nor cut the corners of my beard (but I do keep it trimmed nice), well this list could get pretty long. I bet you get the idea.

Like I said, I take it all literally. As stated in 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. So I don't try to interpret anything. I figure that leads me to thinking I can find a way to justify doing as I please, NOT what God's will is. I figure His will is to do what He asked MANY times - "Follow my Commandments, and Statutes, and Judgements".

Yes, it's a little different. Maybe even a lot different. Hell, it's TOTALLY different... But I wouldn't have it any other way.. I'm hoping to end up with a really good job!! See post # 87 ;)

And I do REALLY enjoy engaging in these discussions. I like your posts!!! And I do take from them, and they do give me things to think about and give careful consideration to.

innieway  posted on  2006-08-17   4:13:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: innieway, rowdee, Enderby (#90)

It wasn't long before it dawned on me that translation was a major issue. Translation is a HUGE issue. There are over 170 MIStranslations in the Scriptures. One is the word rib in the story of the creation of Eve. The literal translation of the Hebrew word is curve. But I'm sure that in 1611 it made no sense to the translators that curve was what was written. "And God took a curve from Adam".... I bet that one had them scratching their head a while. They settled on rib because that's all that made sense to them. Of course it didn't even make sense to the writer either I bet. After all he obviously didn't mean a rib bone or else he would have said that. He used the word bone in the next paragraph. With modern science we now know about the helix - the DNA curve. NOW it makes sense!! Same for the word Easter, albeit this was an INTENTIONAL mistranslation. The translators could NOT find anything about Easter anywhere!!! Since it was already a "christian" practice in 1611, they had to justify it somehow, and they deliberately mistranslated pascha (passover) into the word Easter... SHAME SHAME!!! But we caught it!!

I'm just getting back to this thread, and haven't read it all yet. I remember reading that about the DNA curve recently...maybe it was somthing you wrote. I also read something at http://watch.pair.com about the deception or purported Masonic influence in the 1611 King James translation. I haven't had a chance to study it. Here's a link just in case you are interested:

http://www.watch.pair.com/ Scroll down to "Expose of Cutting Edge Ministries" [I can't weigh in on this dispute at this time, because I am ignorant on the issues, but will say that while I do not agree with either of these websites all the time, I have a high regard for, and have learned a tremendous amount from both of them.] [BTW, The Lost Tribe of Dan is back up! at [ http://watch.pair.com.]

Related link House of God on Trial [King James Bible, etc]

http://www.watch.pair.com/church-on-trial-intro.html

While I was looking for the above link, I ran across this one, which has been a subject more than once recently on the 4um: Freemasonry in the Southern Baptist Church. I'll put it here, because Freemasonry is one of the most deceptive and insidious attacks on the church. Freemasonry is under the jurisdiction of the Jews. [see speech in red at bottom of page: http://www.biblebelievers.org .au/luther.htm ]. It is also behind the founding of the "United States" government, symbolized by the eagle, which usurped God's planting of America: II Samuel 7:10; Ezekiel 34:11-13; John 10; Ezekiel 17:1- 10; Matthew 15:13.

'...."U.S. membership [in the Masons] is claimed at about three million, with about five million worldwide... The official magazine of Masonry in the U.S. is titled New Age. Some church denominations are also led by avowed Masons. For example, a 1991 survey by the Southern Baptist Convention Sunday School Board found that 14% of SBC pastors and 18% of SBC deacon board chairs are Masons. It is also estimated that SBC members comprise 37% of total U.S. lodge membership. (A 2000 updated SBC report found that over 1,000 SBC pastors are Masons.)"

37% of 3,000,000 would have been 1,110,000 Masons who held membership in the SBC. This estimate was for 1991. How many are there today? Also, how many Masons attend SBC churches but do not hold formal memberships? And how many Masons belong to other Christian denominations? (A Freemason once informed us that the Masons encourage their members to go to church.)...."

This was interesting as well:

THE JESUS SEMINAR IN THE SBC

Considering that over 1 million Freemasons belong to the Southern Baptist Convention, and many hold positions of authority, it is not surprising that in 1998 a Jesus Seminar leader was invited to address an SBC congregation.

"In February Jesus Seminar leader Marcus Borg spoke for three days at Myers Park Baptist Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. Myers Park is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.

"Borg denies that Jesus Christ even claimed to be the Messiah. He denies that Jesus Christ was virgin born. He denies the bodily resurrection of Christ. He denies that Christ worked miracles. 'We would say these are paranormal happenings, meaning things we don’t have an explanation for' (The Charlotte Observer, Monday, Feb. 16, 1998, p. 6C).

"In 1992 Borg stated: 'It is a distortion of Scripture to read [the Bible] as a book of the future. It has a profoundly disturbing effect, and leads to the image of God as judge and emphasizes us as getting ready for judgment. It takes us away from the world' (The Berean Call, Apr. 1992).

"That same year Borg testified that He believes almost nothing in the Bible: 'I would argue that the truth of Easter does not depend on whether there was an empty tomb, or whether anything happened to the body of Jesus. ... I do not see the Christian tradition as exclusively true, or the Bible as the unique and infallible revelation of God. ... It makes no historical sense to say, ‘Jesus was killed for the sins of the world.’ ... I am one of those Christians who does not believe in the virgin birth, nor in the star of Bethlehem, nor in the journeys of the wisemen, nor in the shepherds coming to the manger, as facts of history" (Bible Review, December 1992).

"The misnamed Jesus Seminar, composed of some 75 'experts in religion and New Testament studies,' began meeting in March 1985 (its organization was first announced in 1978) with the supposed object of discovering which words of the Gospels are authentic. After a passage was discussed by the participating 'scholars,' they used colored pegs to indicate the degree of authenticity they felt should be ascribed to it. Red means they believe it is definitely authentic; pink for maybe; gray for probably; black for absolutely not authentic. The colors indicate degrees of doubt in God’s Word. In 1993 the Jesus Seminar published The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus. This included a new translation called 'The Scholar's Translation.' The color coding was incorporated into the text to describe the degree to which the various portions of the Gospels are considered authentic by the Jesus Seminar. Most of the passages are black!

"The Seminar concluded that Christ spoke only 18 percent of the sayings attributed to Him in the Bible. According to the Jesus Seminar, Christ did not speak most of the beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount; He did not say anything about turning the other cheek or giving to those who ask of you; He did not speak the parable of the sower, the parable of the ten virgins, the parable of the ten pieces of money, or the parable of the talents; He did not say 'I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it'; He did not pray in the garden of Gethsemane; He did not say 'Take eat, this is my body' and the other sayings associated with the Lord’s Supper; He did not say 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do' or 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me' when He was on the cross.

"The Jesus Seminar determined that Christ did not walk on the water; he did not feed the thousands with only a few loaves and fishes; Christ gave no prophecies of His death or resurrection or second coming; Christ did not conduct the Last Supper as it is recorded in Scripture; there was no Jewish trial of Christ; Christ did not appear before the high priest or before Pilate; the Jewish crowd did not participate in His condemnation; Christ did not rise again bodily on the third day and did not ascend to Heaven bodily.

"According to the Jesus Seminar, 'THE STORY OF THE HISTORICAL JESUS ENDED WITH HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS AND THE DECAY OF HIS BODY' (Religious News Service, March 6, 1995). (Christ-Denier Speaks at Southern Baptist Church)...'

** This is exactly what Myron Fagan warned about in his recording back in the 1960's THE ILLUMINATI AND THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS. Rothschild and Rockefeller chose their Wolves to infiltrate the House of Sheep, to spread doubt about the divinity of Jesus. They are being caught in their escapades right and left. Oh! I almost forgot! **** I've been meaning to mention that this whole rapture thing is part of the NWO plot to make the people BELIEVE we are in the 'end-times' as spoken of in Revelation [part of the reason, being, IMO, so after the elite have set up their whole prison planet, they can sit back and just rake in their cut in $$$$ on fees charged in their cashless society: http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=32427 ].

Good article here:

GLOBAL ELITE PROMOTING END-TIMES MYTH. http://www.historici st.com/articles2/globalelite.htm .

However, I disagree slightly with the article, because, as I have already stated, I believe God intends to establish His kingdom ON EARTH....."My kingdom is not NOW of this world"." But you can get a better idea of where all this rapture idea originates. [ANOTHER good one is this ***** Left Behind & LaHaye's Masonic Connections http://www.watch.pair.com/lahaye.ht ml The first article is the one that got noone222 and myself started on the discussion of "heaven and earth" on the other thread. While you're at that site, you might want to see his series of articles on the New Jerusalem. I had started to read it once a long time ago, and it went completely over my head at the time, and I gave up on it. The more I read the Bible though, I came to the startling conclusion that Israel was not who I had always been told. Then when I read Galatians 3, and discovered that the promises made to Abraham belonged to Christians, Prophecies found their mates pretty quickly, and it SOON dawned on me that the Old Jerusalem was NOT the New Jerusalem, and I remembered these articles, and went back to the computer to look for them. I quickly saw that the prophecies I saw belonging not only to all Christians, but to America in particluar, were the same things Pastor Emory had been saying all along. I don't know if I agree with EVERYTHING he says there, and it appears he is a proponent of Ten-Twelve Tribes/WHITE Israel, and I certainly am NOT, but if anyone is still convinced Jerusalem is the God- forsaken city in the Middle East, I invite you to read these articles to see what you think. This one is my favorite [you can link to the others at the bottom of the page]:

NEW JERUSALEM THE BRIDE http://www.historicist.com/ojnj /ojnj6.htm

This is getting off the subject a bit as well, but in the end, it is all related, note where he quotes: "And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation . . . God has made us a "strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion, from henceforth, even for ever. And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion [not the old mother; the daughter!], unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion . . ."

I was reading some tax articles earlier, and was reminded of the prophecy "I will make you nation and a company of nations":

Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name [is] Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

The Royals believe themselves to be, by way of "divine right" according to their supposed bloodline to Ephraim and Judah [very suspect], the inheritors of this promise. Whereas, it is obvious, to any honest reader of the Bible, those promises are made to THE SEED of Christ BY FAITH:

Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors..... http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa053.html#10

Well, there it is, the essence of GRACE BY FAITH FORETOLD, confirming what Paul said in Galatians 3:

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

And John:

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

And Peter:

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

and from Habbakkuk, which could just as well be for our time:

Hab 2:4 ¶ Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

[wow. should read it:]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hab/Hab002.html#4

...The Just shall live BY FAITH, New Testament:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Hab/2/4.html

Gen 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.....

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen035.html#11

And this:

Jos 1:1 ¶ Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,

Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, [even] to the children of Israel.

Jos 1:3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.

Jos 1:4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast......

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jos/Jos001.html#3

and this:

Rom 8:17 — And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together......

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rom/8/17.html

The [Judeo-]British-Israel conspiracy, also spoken about on the other thread, promote that as being fulfilled in the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh. They have themselves being Ephraim, the leader of the 10 Tribes [Israel], and also Judah. They have America being Manasseh. I THINK, but am not sure, that they have us as the strong nation, and themselves as the "company of nations". Acording to what I was reading this morning, I think they could BOTH refer to us:

[1] See Bank of Augusta v. Earle, 38 U.S. (13 Pet.) 519; 10 L.Ed. 274 (1839), in which the Supreme Court ruled: "The States between each other are sovereign and independent. They are distinct and separate sovereignties, except so far as they have parted with some of the attributes of sovereignty by the Constitution. They continue to be nations, with all their rights, and under all their national obligations, and with all the rights of nations in every particular; except in the surrender by each to the common purposes and objects of the Union, under the Constitution. The rights of each State, when not so yielded up, remain absolute." http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Taxes/Citizenship/NotACitizenUnderIRC.htm

Someone at 4um sent me a link that revealed CorpUSA thugs had murdered 2 and beat nearly dead another who revealed that the State of Washington is NOT a state, but still a territory! http://www.crtf.org/fraud.html . If you read it, note the fire that destroyed evidence. The same thing happened with the 13th Amendment. It got "lost" in the shuffle of the Civil War, and destruction of records by fire. Look at 9/11 and all the evidence that was burned, and then carted off. All results of "Jewish Lightning"? A silent war has been waged against the people of this country ever since they planted that cross at Cape Henry.

I won't go much further off the subject than that, except to say that some believe that the Constitution was not legally ratified by the states. I haven't researched it, but here is where I read it: http://www.biblebelievers.or g.au/cmlaw13.htm . I would also say the number of states required to amend the Articles of Confederation, according to the Articles itself, was not the same that his Imperial Highness George Washington required in his pompous "signing statement" to the Constitution. I DO know they since then absconded with the ORIGINAL Constitution, changed the title, deleted the PREAMBLE to the Bill of Rights which would have held them to the original constitution, AND the ORIGINAL thirteenth amendment, which would have made all these lawyers and judges NON-CITIZENS, and inserted the fraudulent, communist 14th and 16th Amendments, and the 17th which allowed our Senators to be bought and sold by any and all, and made us all SLAVES.

Which brings me to another article I have not read all of, but refers to the cycles the First Israel went through when they turned their back on God, and it specifically refers to the period of Judges. [Glancing at one of your posts, I noticed you talking about the law and judges.] Excerpt:

"....The book of Judges in the Bible shows what happens to a culture that trusts in man and the flesh and their own feelings rather than in God’s law for their sense of justice and morality. Below is an excerpt from our Bible introducing the Book of Judges to make the moral lessons contained in the book crystal clear:

The Book of Judges stands in stark contrast to Joshua. In Joshua an obedient people conquered the land through trust in the power of God. In Judges, however, a disobedient and idolatrous people are defeated time and time again because of their rebellion against God.

In seven distinct cycles of sin to salvation, Judges shows how Israel had set aside God’s law and in its place substituted “what was right in his own eyes” (21:25). The recurring result of abandonment from God’s law is corruption from within and oppression from without. During the nearly four centuries spanned by this book, God raises up military champions to throw off the yoke of bondage and to restore the nation to pure worship. But all too soon the “sin cycle” begins again as the nation’s spiritual temperance grows steadily colder.

The Book of Judges could also appropriately be titled “The Book of Failure.” ....'

From OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BECOME IDOLATRY AND A FALSE RELIGION

http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Taxes/Articles/Christian/GovReligion.htm

I post a lot of links, etc., I know, and someone told me recently it put him off. Well, fine, those folks don't need to read it. But some of us have been connecting the dots for a long time, and I just like to save people who are just getting a clue, some valuable time, and the more people we can get to see how it is all tied together, the better, IMO. People who don't believe in or understand conspiracies, are, IMO, fighting with their hands tied behind their backs.

One more before I take a break. I saw where you said we are still living under the Old Covenant. How do you figure?

Dan 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: [See Isaiah 53, above] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, [Jesus was the LAST SACRIFICE acceptable to God, and THE VEIL WAS RENT IN TWAIN http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/27/51.html ] and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, [He destroyed the temple and the city. See Jewish Wars preteristarchive.com] even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

+ + + + + + + +

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

http://www.blueletterbible.o rg/tsk_b/Dan/9/27.html

Hbr 8:13 — In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away

http://www.blueletterb ible.org/tsk_b/Hbr/8/13.html

The Old Covenant went the way of their false religion. To signify the end of the Old Covenant was one of the main reasons Jesus destroyed the temple and the city. No more sacrifices allowed. You do know they tried to rebuild it don't you. That's an interesting story. Search Temple Jerusalem GREAT BALLS OF FIRE. God wouldn't let it be rebuilt, because He has a New Covenant, and a New People, who are His New Temple.

To revert to salvation by the law, is to deny the reason for Christ's coming in the first place, which of course plays right into the hands of those who would destroy us.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-17   14:16:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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