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Title: The "Rapture" Business -- Part Two
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Aug 14, 2006
Author: Enderby
Post Date: 2006-08-14 22:09:58 by Enderby
Keywords: None
Views: 2493
Comments: 146

I was involved, the other day, in another thread here at Freedom4um, in which the discussion turned to the question of whether "the rapture" is a Biblically-supported concept. After exchanging a post or two with Yertle Turtle and Zipporah, I began to wonder whether we were all working from the same definition of "rapture." Having done some reading, I still think that's the problem (definitional differences, that is). 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 says (NASB translation, emphasis added by me): For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The term "rapture" cames from the Latin verb raptus, meaning "to seize, catch, or carry away." The same verb supplies the root of the name of a whole category of birds that get their groceries in this way: "raptors" are eagles, hawks, buzzards, condors, and so on. If we take "rapture" to mean simply a catching-up from above (which, since I am a simple-minded person, is how I understand the term), I don't think there can be much dispute about whether living believers will be removed from the earth's surface and drawn to the Lord, following the general resurrection of the believing dead. I gather, however, from the reading to which Zipporah was kind enough to provide a link, that others have added to that meaning. I am reproducing the text from that link here, and interjecting some comments in italic font.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Does the Bible teach the "Rapture"?

By Donald Hochner

There are many Christians today who would love to be able to escape the troubles of this world. They believe that the Church will be "raptured" just before the great tribulation or the destruction of this world, depending on which "futurist" view you hold to. However, this kind of "escapism" is not taught in Scriptures.

"Rapture," "futurism," and "escapism" haven't been defined yet -- nor will they be in the rest of Mr. Hochner's essay. And that's not good.

Also there is no guarantee in Scriptures that would lead us to believe that the Church will be "caught up" in order to avoid suffering or persecutions because Jesus prayed that the Father would "not to take them (elect) out of the world, but to keep them from evil one" (John 17:15).

But what if there was some other reason for a catching-up? I agree with Mr. Hochner that the church is not promised immunity from suffering and persecution. Indeed, the New Testament is pretty well filled with promises to the contrary: promises that were already being made good for the savagely-persecuted first century church. Also, I think Mr. Hochner is stealing a base by putting that parenthetical "elect" after "them" in John 17:15. As usual, context is everything; this is right in the middle of a chapters-long discourse by Jesus to his twelve disciples at the Last Supper, and the "them" absolutely refers to those disciples. What is said may apply also to believers in general, and it may not ... but the plain and direct meaning of the text is not to be casually "blown off" with a single word in parentheses. Besides, when Jesus says He's not praying for His disciples to be taken out of the world right then, that obviously does not mean that they will never be taken out of the world in any way, at any time. Every one of them died, as have all believers that I know of since then, apart from the small minority of us who are alive today -- and I'm old enough now that I can sort of see my opportunity to sneak off by way of the grave coming up, too.

The "rapture" theme is the most popular and well-known subject among evangelical Christianity. Most believe (I once did) that we will "zoom" up to meet with Christ in the air without experiencing physical death or have our faith tested, to see whether it be real or not. They usually refer the passages in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 as their proof text. But I believe they have taken these verses out of context. Most futurist's views have fallen short in their failure to properly take into account the historical-grammatical and cultural context of the prophecies; specifically what they meant to their first century audience.

In order to understand the passage in 1 Thes. 4:13-18, we must understand the overall view of this epistle by Paul and the NT writers before we come to any conclusion. These passages will be our anchor for this brief study. We cannot look at all the instances for this would be time consuming, and the space required would be prohibitive. You may be able to discern more of the meaning after reading what I have written.

Of course, we must go back into the beginning of this epistle of 1 Thessalonians. It was Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy's greeting to the church of the Thessalonians in the first century (about AD 50's). Anytime you see the word "we", it means Paul, Silvanus, Timothy, and the brethren in their time, not to us as the readers in the present time. Keep in mind that the NT was written for us, not to us.

Very true ... and Mr. Hochner might have wanted to keep that in mind himself, when he inserted his personal assumption into John 17:15, as I noted above.

Paul wrote in this epistle, that they were "in much tribulation" (1:6). They had already "suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amid much opposition" (2:2). From what quarter was the persecution? It was from the apostate Jews. This can be found in this epistle:

"For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the Prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost" (2:14-16).

Does the phase "fill up the measure of their sins" in verse 16 ring a bell? Yes it does. This can be found in Matt. 23:

"Consequently you bear witness against yourself, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zecheriah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things shall be upon this generation" (vv. 31-36).

We must remember the context in which those words were spoken. Jesus told the scribes and the Pharisees "Behold, your house [temple] being left to you desolate!" in their generation (vv. 36, 38). Either we have to say it is all future (and make Jesus a liar for saying any of it would occur in that generation), or make it all fulfilled at AD 70 (and preserve the integrity of Jesus).

Also there is another connection in James 5:

"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and put death the righteous man; he does not resist you" (vv. 1-6).

James was the leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. He warns the apostate Jews to turn into the Lord, otherwise they'll face the wrath of God because they were living in the last days of the Old Covenant system. We know that the temple and the Old Covenant system was burned by fire during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Obviously, the word "you" was referring to the Jewish people in the first century, to which James was speaking, and not to us. Read the next few verses:

"Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rain. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; Behold, the judge is standing at the door" (James 5:7-9).

Lastly this also can be found in Rev. 18:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying 'Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues, for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities" (vv. 4-5).

Who is this harlot, Babylon the great? Most in the futurist camp would say Rome, the future apostate Christianity. Not quite! The Bible has the answer as to the identity of the great city referred to. Rev. 11:8 says the great city (see Rev. 14:8; 16:19; 17:1, 18; 18:2) which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified. It was Jerusalem, without a doubt. The harlot was apostate Israel because of her rejection of the Son of God. Before Christ died on the cross, the Jewish people cried and "prophesied" against themselves saying: "His blood be on us and on our children" (Matt. 27:25). They didn't realize what they were saying, as after 40 years (a generation) later God was accomplishing all things as the OT and the NT had predicted (Luke 21:22, 32).

In addition, what about the phase "wrath has come upon them (apostate Jews) to the utmost" in same verse in 1 Thes. 2:16? Paul even mentioned this two other times in this epistle:

"And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes. 5:9).

This also can be found in Matthew 3 when John the Baptist warns to the Jews:

"But when he (John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers (see also in Matt. 23), who warned you to flee from the wrath [about] to come?"

...And,

"the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire". ...And, "His (Jesus) winning fork is in His hand, and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (vv. 7, 10,12).

Obviously, John the Baptist was warning the apostate Jewish people.

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians not to be disturbed by these afflictions because they believed that God had destined them for this and it came to pass (1 Thes. 3:3-4, 7). They knew it was according to God's purpose predestined to occur.

Note that Paul was saying that the Lord "may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the *coming* of our Lord Jesus with all His saints (1 Thes. 3:13). The word "coming" is very important and we cannot overlook this one. The Greek word for "coming" is parousia. It is mentioned 17 times reference to the coming of Christ, four of them in this epistle (1 Thes. 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23). If you are a futurist, whether you are Premill, Postmill, or Amill: how many "comings" do you believe will occur?

I have to interrupt at this point to complain about the jargon. "If you are a futurist," he says ... how am I supposed to know whether he's talking to me or not? He keeps using these terms without defining them. "Premill, Postmill, or Amill" ... not only not defined, but he can't even be bothered to spell them out.

From my experience (I was one of them), futurists believe there are two or more "comings" of Christ whether they realize or not. Let me explain what I mean. If you are a pretribulation Premill (or a Dispensationalist), there are three different comings of Christ in the future. You may say, "No way!" I'll show you what I mean with the Greek word "parousia" in these passages:

1. The second coming of Christ in the pretribulation rapture: *1 Thes. 2:19 *1 Thes. 3:13 *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *2 Thes. 2:1 (see below after 7 years of great tribulation) *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28

2. The third coming of Christ after 7 years of great tribulation: *Matt. 24:27-31, 37-39 *2 Thes. 2:8

3. The fourth coming of Christ after 1,000 years *1 Cor. 15:23-24 (most aren't sure of this) *2 Peter 3:10-13

So, they believe there are three comings of Christ in the future. Would you agree with that? Does the Bible teach that? I have shown this to some futurist brethren, and their eyes didn't even blink! They were speechless.

As for the moderate or "inconsistent" preterist (Postmill or Amill), they believe two "comings" of Christ, one in AD 70 to judge Israel; but the literal, final coming of Christ is still in the future according to their creeds or the traditions of men. I'll show you:

1. In AD 70: *Matt. 24:27-31 (some are sure about vv. 37-39) *2 Thes. 2:1 *2 Thes. 2:8 *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28

2. In the future: *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *1 Cor. 15:23-25 *2 Peter 3:10-13

Look closely for the futurist's theological gymnastics here, then ask yourself if the first century brethren would have understood two or more different comings being spoken of using exactly the same Greek word and terminology. If the NT writers understood two or more different comings separated by different periods of time, we would expect them to stop somewhere and explain to this us. Since they did not do that, we must assume the same coming is under consideration. More on that shortly.

Tell me, dear reader, if this makes sense to you. Paul writes to the Thessalonians and informs them "to wait for His Son from heaven" who delivers them "from the wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10) even if it did not occur in the first century? Those in the futurist camp would say that there is what has now been an almost 2,000 years gap, because "those things simply didn't happen" when the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in AD 70. I would counter with this: Paul says that they (first-century brethren) should wait for the Son. Would it make sense to inform the first-century brethren to wait for the Son, if His coming was to happen in our time? That would be pointless to the Thessalonians, and it would make Paul's informing them useless, because these men would only come in our time.

Now, we'll do a little study on 1 Thes. 4:13-5:11. Please make sure you have the Bible in hand, verifying all that is taught to you (Acts 17:11).

This may change the way you view the fulfillment of prophecy, perhaps even the way you view the whole Bible, as it did for me.

I believe there is a connection between 1 Thes. 4:15-17, Matt. 24:30-31, 1 Cor. 15:50-5 and Rev. 11:15 as being the same event in AD 70 because of the last "trumpet of God":

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming [parousia] of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15-17).

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, the all the tribes of the earth [land] will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the our winds, from one end of the sky to the other" (Matt. 24:30-31).

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:50-52).

"And the seventh (trumpet) angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15 and read vv. 16-19).

Also, I think it would be easier for us if we can make a comparison between parallel passages such 1 Thes. 4-5 and Matt 24:

1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16 4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17 7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17 8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2 9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4 10. Unbelievers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3 11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3 12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4 13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7

Do these parallel passages cause your jaw drop to the ground? The conclusion is inescapable that 1 Thes. 4-5 is dealing with exactly same coming, judgment, and resurrection that Matt. 24 is.

If we don't relocate this prophecy of Matt. 24 into our future, then it was a prophecy to them, who were there at the Mount of Olives, when Jesus spoke, that is: in "that generation" (Matt. 24:34). We must compare Scriptures with Scriptures to interpret them properly. It does not matter what you or I may think, but what saith the Scripture? I do not care what the "prophecy experts" may say; it is the Word of God, "sola scriptura" that makes the decision for me. The futurists realize that a true analysis of biblical text related to the timing of prophetic events endangers their eschatological position.

You might ask, "but doesn't the Bible say that we shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air?" Yes it does, but what does the word "air" means? Is it in our atmosphere or the air we breath?

Well, I'm just a simpleminded man, but I would suppose from reading 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that the "air" being referred to here is the kind of "air" that contains "clouds." Now, maybe those "clouds" can be spiritualized away too. But what happened to the exegetical principle that the plain and straightforward meaning of a text is the preferred one?

We can compare with other Scriptures in Eph 2:2: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." The word "air" is an another word for heavenly or spiritual realm. Satan was always an opponent of the scheme of the redemption as we can see throughout the Bible. He was (but is no longer) the prince of the power of the air. In Rom. 16:20 Paul says that Satan would be crushed "shortly" (see Gen 3:15). Jesus now has taken over that sphere and rules in the "air" with the saints since the destruction of Jerusalem. If that is the same "air" where the saints were to meet and be gathered, then there is no necessity for us to believe that the rapture gathering and meeting was to be physical and visible either. It was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the ingrafted Gentiles was transformed (and transferred) into Christ's new spiritual Israel (new covenant) when the old fleshly-based (old covenant) was taken away in AD 70. The "gathering together" is the heavenly places in Christ - the spiritual kingdom of God. Satan is no longer around here; he is now in the lake of fire.

Also notice what Paul wrote: "By the word of the Lord, thatwe who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord" in both verses 15 & 17 of 1 Thessalonians. They were expecting of an imminent parousia in their lifetime. We need to step back out of our 20th century mindset and stop looking at the NT as if it was written in our generation. Otherwise Paul was mistaken and not an inspired writer. The Bible is inerrant, infallible, and sufficient.

As we have seen 1 Thes. 5 cannot be isolated from the context of 1 Thes. 4. 2 Thessalonians cannot be ignored either. In this context (1 Thes. 4:13-5:11) Paul calls this parousia, "the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15) and the "day of the Lord" (1 Thes. 5:2 with numerous passages in the OT and the NT) and says it will be like "a thief in the night" (see Matt. 24:42-44; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 3:3) with "birth pangs" (1 Thes. 5:2-3) in the same event during the first century. The "destruction" of Jerusalem had come upon them in AD 70 (1 Thes. 5:3) from the Roman armies as God's instrument.

In conclusion, there is no evidence in the NT that teaches the two comings of Christ in the first century and another one in the future. Also, nowhere is there any mention of a multi-coming of Christ like as the Dispensationalist system claims (parousia or "rapture" before 7 years of tribulation, the parousia after the great tribulation and the parousia at the end of 1,000 years).

The word "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible, neither is it taught there.

Ah, now where have I heard an "argument" like that before? Why, I believe it was the last time I had a crew of Jehovah's Witnesses in my living room, explaining solemnly that the word "trinity" appears nowhere in Scripture. And they're correct, as far as that goes; it's just that the doctrine of the trinity is supported so extensively by Scripture. I'm always ready to hear a reasoned argument that says I've misunderstood 1 Thessalonians 4, or any other part of the Bible; but I'm short on patience with "the word '[fill in word here]' isn't in the Bible. Mr. Hochner should confine himself to honest arguments.

There is no Scriptural support for this kind of dream, and we should reject it outright. This escapist philosophy is pure fiction. We are not taught to escape reality in the Scripture, but rather to face it knowing that God will work all things out for our good (Rom. 8:28-30).

Mr. Hochner's argument depends on his attribution of base motives to those who disagree with him: they are "escapist philosophers;" they want to "escape reality." I'm sure that is true of some who disagree with him; I am equally sure it is not true of others.

He is our sovereign God and nothing can happen to thwart His plan. To say otherwise is blasphemy to God.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Donald Hochner

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I don't really have much of a detailed eschatological position. While I am convinced that God is going to wrap up this phase of the story at some point, after two millennia of church history, I guess my feeling is that it's pretty unlikely that it (the conclusion) would happen during my brief lifetime on the planet's surface. I think that the Bible's instructions for Christians are quite plain, are repeated many times, and I don't see that there's anything about the way I should live, or the manner in which I should attempt obedience to my redeemer that depends in any way on the details of how God is going to finalize history. I think that exchanging views about these matters is a fine exercise in logic, reasoning, and scholarship -- as long as the exchange is conducted with respect and charity. Sadly, that's seldom how it's done.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 95.

#47. To: Enderby (#0)

Here's how I know Christianity and every other religion is bunk.

1. Religion is used as a tool by religious leaders and politicians to further agendas and create wars for no reason other than monetary gain.

2. Religious leaders are the first wave of apologists for what politicians do.

3. If a religion, or a religious leader gets out of line with the dogma preached by either the government or the religious organization, they get slapped down, or assassinated like Martin Luther King.

4. Religion is about mocking the victim. What I mean to say is that only after you die, do you get any kind of reward, instead of reaping a reward in life.

5. With all the souls that have died for the lies of their leaders, none of them have come back for revenge in the form of a disembodied spirit, or a reincarnated person of any consequence.

6. Every generation since the beginning of time has believed the end of the world was coming, and portions of every generations work to bring it about. Why? Because they believe their religion is a means to get to heaven. If that were the case, then surely we'd all be spared the burden of living here on this fucking planet.

7. Every single person who debates me uses scripture to make their point, even though the scripture itself was written and re-written a hundred times by men, who used it to manipulate and create societies based on usury and lies. Nobody seems to see this fact and it proves that all religions are cults and a means to control people.

8. God is not going to finalize this planet, as a REAL God really doesn't need to have a little piece of land called Israel be the center of the universe. If it were so important to God, I can assure you that God would have made it impenetrable from the outside, or simply put it in his big pocket and taken it with him. Israel is important to the Jewish people, and the people who have been duped into believing the Bible.

9. I can assure you folks that God is not coming back here on any time table that is created by fundamentalist muslims and christians. In fact, God really doesn't have much use for people who he created in his image who still act like a bunch of greedy half-monkeys.

10. Those who say they're descendents of Jesus and who have the Holy Right to rule us are all a bunch of fucking liars and deceivers who have used religion, and mythology to assure their right to manipulate, cheat, lie, destroy and fleece the people of the world. If these people were truly sons and daughters of God, God is surely pissed off as hell at these fuckers for not living up to their potential.

This is just a sample of the arguments I can make that ALL religions are false, and fake. Sure as shit, there will be some bible thumping retard who will quote scripture to make their idiotic point, which is in fact just part of the con of ALL religions.

ALL RELIGIONS ARE CONS. Especially if you have to pay tithe and tribute for redemption.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-08-15   21:28:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#47)

1. Religion Politics is used as a tool by religious gubmint leaders and politicians to further agendas and create wars mayhem and class envy for no reason other than monetary gain.

2. Religious Party leaders are the first wave of apologists for what politicians do.

3. If a religion poster, or a religious leader party member gets out of line with the dogma preached by either the government or the religious political organization, they get slapped down, or assassinated like Martin Luther King [or any other voter/citizen/poster].

4. Religion Politics is about mocking the victim. What I mean to say is that only after you die, do you get any kind of reward, instead of reaping a reward in life there is definitely no reward inasmuch as you're taxed on what you leave behind--all without the ability to protest such confiscation.

5. With all the souls citizens that have died for the lies of their leaders, none of them have come back for revenge in the form of a disembodied spirit, or a reincarnated person of any consequence {, or in any other way in order to reclaim their damned country].

As you can see, TTMA, your comments can apply to other things....from government to ngos to local water or sewer district organizations. So, to whack around on 'bible thumpers' is a whole lot disingenious. That isn't to say that religion hasn't been used in the most god-awful of ways--so has governments through-out history; of course, mankind has been a bit barbarian, likewise.

You use what appears to be a broad brush to apparently condemn everyone who believes in God. God, in order to be The God, can do any damned thing He wants, when He wants, how He wants, where He wants---all without having to worry about whether someone here thinks He is only supposed to be a God of love or some other 'thing' that THEY determine He should be or act as or whatever.

He can set up anyone He wants to make an example for anyone else that He wants...or He could set them up to be all that He cares about.....so what's the bitch. If you're more powerful, or anyone else for that matter, go ahead and try.

As the joke goes with the scientist who told God he wasn't needed anymore as mankind had learned how to make man; God told him to go ahead and prove it; and the jerk grabbed some of God's dirt----and God told him to put it down and go find his own dirt!

That people cannot look at the universe and see the footprints of The God is to their sorrow, whether it is yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-15   22:14:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: rowdee (#49)

Here's the thing Rowdee, I do believe in God, but NOT the crap that everyone was forced into.

Christianity, like every other religion since the dawn of time has been about controls being put in place to get people to act a certain way, and to get people to follow along.

Seeing God's footprints is a lot like seeing God's shit piles too. Especially when you see what this planet has to offer the universe.

That's the real problem with all organized religions, they all seem to think that just because they believe in THEIR god, they're better than everyone else who thinks differently, or who doesn't share their same indoctrination or programming.

You took the first 5 sentences on and made a valid point, but unfortunately you have the wrong impression that I somehow associate believing in God, with being Christian, Buddhist, Muslim whatever. That is WRONG. I don't follow ANY religion that demands my money, my fealty, or demands I join a church or some other herd of morons who believe the same things.

The reason? Because the God I've come to know, really can't be bothered too much with people using his ideologies to make money, or further an extinction agenda while pretending to be his genetic offspring.

Jesus Christ, and Christianity is a religion about mocking the victim. Why do you suppose that all of the visuals of Christ are of him on the Cross? It surely isn't to put that thought in your mind that he died for our sins, there are many ways to do that without a representation of him on the cross. Showing that over and over again, is about mocking the victim, who was Christ. Saying he died for our sins is a joke compared to the real reason why he died was because of the EVIL of humanity of that time.

The Pharissees, or what I like to call the LIARS, THIEVES and USERS of the day didn't like the idea of Jesus coming in there and wrecking their scam, so they had his ass killed. They took him to Pilate, and guess what happened? Nothing, so they took him to Herod, and again, nothing, so they took him back to Pilate, and of course we all know what happened.

Why would people of that time, who had a so called foreknowledge of Christ's coming do their damndest to have him killed? Because all religions are about falsehoods, lies and indoctrination. The church that Christ spoke of isn't the blasphemy that ALL Christian churches have become. It's not the Catholic Church. It's not Islam. It's not Buddhism, and it sure as shit isn't Satanism.

Christ didn't die for the sins of humanity. Christ died because OF the inherent sins of those people who lived so long ago, and the true evil here, is the lie that has been perpetrated on subsequent generations that believing in this lie of salvation and of the second coming. Jesus is NOT coming back the way the Bible says it. The reason? Because the bible is a lie, and the things that are happening now, were happening then, and there's not a fucking thing that has changed in 2000 years.

The same evil people who were around then, who were ruling the known world are the same group of assraping weasels that are ruling the world today. In 2000 years you'd think that God would have gotten sick and tired of the bullshit and wiped out everything on this pathetic planet. Nope, it just goes right along and keeps on rolling. Every generation seems to have the right situation arise where people are fooled into another con, where they give their lives so that some elite cocksucker can reap a profit. Every generation thinks it's the end of days. Every generation expects the world to end, and guess what happens? THE SHIT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON.

Everything that you're seeing is NOT the hand of God, but the hand of these assraping weasels that have not only been responsible for all the evil in the world, but for sponsoring and creating the very religions that everyone worships to. Think about that for a minute. Where did these religions come from, and who are responsible for their being passed down?

Last time I checked, it's the same group of evil people who have kept mankind from thriving, from innovating, and prospering. Before you get all high and mighty with me, realize that I do indeed believe in God, but Not the god you worship, because my God has more important things to do than save a planet full of retarded half-monkeys who can't seem to live and let live.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-08-16   0:47:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#68)

First, TTMA, if you or anyone else got the impression I was trying to be high and mighty with you, I assure you that was certainly not my intent. I don't do 'uppity', and if I did, I surely did a pisspoor job of it! :).

I believe this is the first time I've seen where you've indicated you believe in God, whichever one you have; you did note your God is not the one I worship.

If GOd made man in His image, why would you call them retarded half-monkeys-- would you not think He'd be offended at your opinion of his works?

I don't understand your comment 'but NOT the crap that every was forced into'. I don't understand your usage of 'crap'.

Could you expound on what you believe are the 'controls in place to get people to act a certay way or to follow along'?

Seeing God's footprints---you have low regard for this planet as well as the universe as a whole? You think God made a shitter?

What do you consider 'belief' or 'faith' means? Even Satan believed in God and Jesus Christ. He know they're real. But just believing in their existence doesn't guarantee anything. If that was the case, then Satan would be back in Heaven singing in the holy choir.

I can't vouch for 'all organized religions' as it regards believing they are better than everyone else who thinks differently or not the same doctrine or programming. I'm not a part of that. But I do read scriptures and I believe that Jesus Christ has said the only way to get to the Father is thru Him. So, if a jew or a hindu refuse to believe that, I don't think I'm better than they-- but I do think I'm going to be some place that they aren't.

As I noted, I don't belong to some church sect or denomination. I believe in going right to the source of my salvation. That isn't to say that I won't listen to people on occasion or that I don't read lots and lots of literature. I'm about as 'unperfected' as one can get.

I don't understand what you're talking about 'genetic offspring of God' comment is. That whole paragraph I'd like to see an exposition on to help me understand where you're coming from.,

As to the pics of Christ on the Cross.........I'm totally against that. I see them as icons, as idols.........to me it represents Christ dying daily whereas he only had to die once on the cross...that is the only thing I could see that I would consider mocking him. BTW, I've seen pics of Christ showing him with multitudes, praying in Gethsemane, with children, ascending, and certainly at the last supper.

Have you considered that Jesus Christ did NOT have to agree to go to the cross? That he could have said NO? He knew what was coming if he said yes....... He didn't consider himself a victim.

The Pharisees didn't like the idea of him calling them hypocrits; where they were putting man made laws about God's laws--the traditions making void the word of God. This seems to be what you are up in arms about, and that is to your credit if you are. Can you imagine a world where the 10 Commandments were adhered to by all; and that there were not the 50,000 'do do this' and 'don't do that' or the 'buy this prayer shawl for $20 and we'll toss in some anointing oil, too'.

Those who had a foreknowledge of Jesus Christ......they were told of a Messiah and they were thinking of a blood and bones here on earth king like King David, king of a secular nation.

For the record, TTMA.....the Church was a body of people, not a building, or a sect, or a denomination. Outcalled ones is how the greek is translated, I believe. Surely, you can understand that anytime one goes around saying "ALL" or "NEVER" that it will come back to bite ya in the butt--that old broadbrush paint stripe gets us every time.

CAn you provide evidence the Bible is a lie..........just because history has a way of repeating itself doesn't make the cut, so to speak.

I don't think God would 'this' or 'that'.......doing that has us trying to paint him in a box of what WE think He should be doing or thinking. Frankly, I don't worry about when He gets sick and tired of the bullshit down here--that time willl come. I don't much worry about no end time stuff, either--the thing to do is be right with God now--while you can.

The hand of God.........God has given man free will. Along with free will comes responsibility. Evil perps will be dealt with by God on His terms and at the time He selects. So why worry about it--he can do a hell of a lot better job at vengeance that we ever could.

Tommy, do you have kids? If so, did you and the Mrs. have to teach them how to be bad? If so, you're the first person I've ever met that did. That should be a little bit of a hint. We have to teach our kids how to be good.

Anyways, there was something I was going to try to find to share with you and I can't find it....it came to mind as I read and reread your comment regarding the LIARS, THIEVES, the Pharrisees comment. Something I read this afternoon and it had to do with the thought processes of eastern type peoples vs western type peoples. If I can find it, I'll share it with you. It explained much better than I could about how the Israelites thought in terms of Messiah/Christ.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-16   2:27:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: rowdee (#70)

You're using the dogma you were taught, and that dogma came from people, not from God. Every word in the bible has been changed, meanings changed, everything has changed and to think that it was an exact testament to the word of God is a joke.

Just like every other religious document that has come down the line for the last 3000 years.

The church in Christ's time might have been a group of people who did good things, but I assure you that EVERY church in this country would be engulfed in fire if Christ were to return. They are places not of worship, but of control, and of essentially money laundering. Who do you think funnels money to political candidates? It's free money that rains from heaven to the hands and pocket books of politicians. Yeah, there's a division between church and state alright.

All the crap people have been taught about God, is a lie. This little backwater toilet of a planet that God supposedly created is full of people who shit on the word of God every day, and in a thousand years there'll be another religion that takes its place that will do the exact same thing. You use other people's words to try to make your point and at the same time have absolutely no idea of what your words mean. You twist mine to suit your argument, which is hilarious because you can't make an argument for your faith. You used the term God's footprints. Well, I can see not only God's foot prints, his fingerprints, but I can also see his garbage and horseshit too. I look at it every day when I drive, when I turn on the TV, I hear the bullshit when I turn on the Radio. If God so loved the world, he would have made us all deaf, blind and mute. He wouldn't need to sell a faith or a religion to people.

The only reason Christianity didn't go out the window the same way every other religion is because of the money behind it. MONEY, not faith has been the driving force of every faith in the last 10,000 years. For you to tell me otherwise is laughable. Jesus Christ will no sooner return to the earth in the way the bible says, than Elvis will pop out of his grave and sing Blue Suede Shoes. When people got tired of the human sacrifice stuff, they used animals. When people got tired of using their livestock, they started using money to show God how much they loved him. WOW... I see a pattern here don't you? Religions of all kinds come and go based on the acceptable more's of the day. Which is why people don't pray to a golden calf, or a big owl or something.

I've stated MANY times that I believe in God, just not the God that everyone talks about. The reason? My God is pretty easy to talk to, and doesn't need my money to spread the word. My God really can't be bothered with my needs so I don't need to ask for anything from him other than a guiding hand. I don't pray to be healed, pray for money, pray for any of that other needy crap because frankly My God has bigger fish to fry than to attend to every whining voice he hears.

My God doesn't meddle in the affairs of the world because this planet is pretty insignificant compared to the rest of the universe that he's got to mind over. He has no need for a little patch of land called Israel. He doesn't choose favorites, and he surely doesn't have a CHOSEN people. My God is pretty inclusive, meaning he's prone to ignoring everyone equally. My God doesn't need my money, my fealty, or any of that, because he's GOD. Like I need to tell him how great he is. I think he already knows.

My God doesn't appoint rulers, nor does he need a kingdom on Earth, nor does he need buildings built that are dedicated to his worship. If that were the Case, God would just live on THIS planet instead and things would be a hell of a lot different. The idea of God's genetic offspring is a comment derived by the King's Divine Right, saying that they were direct blood descendants of Jesus Christ, and all that crap. Jesus, even if he had kids would have struck his own children blind or dead out of love of mankind if he'd found out what his so called children used his authority for.

Free Will is great and all, but the contradictions in ALL faiths is what makes me sick to death of any religion that claims to know all the answers. Especially when the God that I've come to know has proven time and again, that there are no absolutes, nor are there always correct answers to every problem. People tout Free Will as an excuse as to why bad people do bad things. God doesn't give people a choice at all when it comes to being good or bad. NOT A CHOICE AT ALL.

What kind of choice would it be if I put a gun to your head, and told you to make a choice between pizza, or chicken, and if you chose Pizza you'd get the bullet? That's not a choice at all is it? Eternal Damnation, or Paradise, Wow, which would you choose? Considering that God seems to be full of Irony, I would bet that Hitler and every other Nazi are in heaven right now, doing God's Laundry. Why? Because what might be your idea of heaven, would be their hell now wouldn't it?

I've read a lot of books on the topic of religion, and I have come to one conclusion. Every religion is a lie. ALL of them are lies. Any time you have people profiting from a faith, that should be your first clue. If every religion were to offer redemption or salvation for free, and every religion were to operate out of someone's home, and every religion were to not only praise God, and actually do some good instead of building more and more churches, then you might see some change in the world, and I might become a believer.

Instead, what I see in front of me, are more of the same liars and cheats that Jesus pissed off a long time ago. They're the same people using faith to get money for their organizations and really aren't doing much to help the community. While churches have their tax exempt status, how much money really goes back into the communities?

What's worse, is the dupes who think they're going to get raptured before Jesus comes back, all the while paying tithe and tribute to a church that could give a shit less about them. I've seen plenty of people who every day practice their "Faith" and expect forgiveness for raping their children, or fleecing their flocks. Chalk that up to free will, or the devil? HELL NO. The devil doesn't exist, and neither does god in the way that people are taught. The devil is an excuse we give to people who do particularly horrible things. We don't want to believe that a human being can do something so vile, but they do, and they do it daily.

True evil, is being ambivalent, or being able to create an excuse for someone's evil, and to me, that is every godforsaken religion in the world. Religion gives you an answer to a problem that doesn't exist. The devil doesn't make you do anything, the devil doesn't whisper things to you, the devil doesn't take control of you, the devil doesn't exist. Everyone has the ability to be good or Evil, and sometimes evil wins. People make bad decisions, and to say that the Devil made someone do it, is to take that responsibility away from some malfunctioning human being. Faith can't save you from yourself, and it can't protect you from being a bad person. If that were the case, every president elected since George Washington would have been sainted.

To me, God is all about self-control, and personal responsibility. Unfortunately, man has subverted that too.

All faiths are about control, and about theft, nothing more. The God I believe in lives and lets live and that's about all I could ask for. Neither giving or taking. Perhaps if people asked less of God, and did more to help themselves, they might find salvation without having to pay some jackass in a black frock for it.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-08-16   10:15:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#74)

TTMA, you very well may have typed or said a million times that you believe in a God. I said that this thread is the first time I've read it. That doesn't make me wrong or a liar--it merely notes that I have not observed prior to this thread that you have said such.

I wasn't taught anything; I didn't have it shoved up my nose, in my ears, or up my butt.

Certainly, the scriptures have been copied, and copied, time and again over the centuries. And in numerous languages. More and more of these manuscripts and fragments are coming to light, thanks to archaeology and the opening of more and more libraries across the world.

Just so you know, translation was one of the major hangups I had as a teenager-- because of school studies that told of the middle ages, and all the religious haggling, and the fight between the church of england and the roman catholic church--I was concerned about 'man' putting their own twist on scripture.

I find it amazing that there is only something like 6,000 differences in words in the comparison of the hebrew bible, the septuagint, and kjv--and when using comparative mms like the syriac peshita, or some aramic and ethioptic or coptic mms. And they have NOT found these affect doctrinal passages. By way of example, say a language doesn't use 'the', in translation to make for ease of reading, the translator adds the word 'the'. Another language may not have a word for 'crimson', so they use the word 'red'.

You, yourself, may think that EVERY church group in America would burn, but I feel pretty confident that you have not visited EVERY church group in America in order to be able to make such a broadbrush statement. It may seem that way to you, but I can assure you, it isn't so.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$....oh yes......that root of all evil. I daresay the military industrial complex kicks into campaign funds, as do lobbyists for various other groups, i.e., pharmaceutical companies, much more than churches do....with churches being defined as one of the standardized denominations or sects.

Basically, the rest of what you wrote seems to me to be an indictment against everything you find wrong or ill with this world. And I concur that there is much wrong on planet Earth. But I sure as hell don't lay the wrong at Gods' feet.

I'm glad you have an easy to talk to God........I do too. And I talk to Him all the time. I share my happies, and my sads.......and I go to Him when someone I know is in need or when I am. It's a great joy to have a loving God who is also just and righteous.....He does it all on His timetable and methodology. I'm so happy that my God wants to hear of me and my woes--that shows He's a caring God--He's not just 'up there somewhere on a throne' waiting to throw a thunderbolt or something.

I'm also happy that He has no problem in chastising or discipling me or even letting trouble come my way. If my faith in Him is not tested, how will I know if it's good enough to get me to the end of the race.

My God doesn't need ANYTHING.....nothing at all......and especially not money! That He wants my trust, my praise is not a problem with me. We're told to spread the gospel, the good news. $$ is a medium by which this can be done, i.e., sending missionaries around the world to spread the Word to those who have not heard it, etc. It also buys airtime for shortwave radios, tv, etc. You surely would concede that these mediums reach a lot further in the world than the door-to-door witnesses, wouldn't you?

There is a very big difference between that type of $$ and the $$ where you send in $$ and a prayer request and they'll pray over it, or for a love offering of X they'll send you a vial of oil or some such.

Rather continue onward with try to discuss various points, Tommy, would you agree that you live your life as you see right, and I'll do likewise. If the world ends up as you think, then neither one of us has lost anything, right? On the other hand, if it ends up as I think it will, one of us is going to be very unhappy.

Best of luck to you and yours....

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-16   14:20:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: rowdee (#84)

Sorry, but I don't think it's going to end up the way you think, and as far as one of us being unhappy, it isn't going to happen. After all, if God gives us free will, I can go anywhere I want to after I die, no matter how good or evil I am right?

There's no choice by the standards of the Christian God. You're either on his side, or you're dead. Wow, sound familiar? Like, if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists?

I'm sure God deals in absolutes... Yeah... Whatever. I can assure you that when I die, I am not going to be unhappy with what happens after, because in all honesty NOBODY knows what happens after you die.

The Vikings thought you went to Valhalla. This was way before Christianity had even been invented, and yet... Do you think there are Vikings in heaven? Do you think they all went to hell, because they hadn't heard the word of Jesus Christ?

Which means, prior to the Christian Church, and prior to Jesus Christ, everyone went to hell when they died.

Yeah... I'm sure that God had a big plan for that one didn't he. Totally waste all those souls prior to the word of Jesus Christ. God just discarded ALL those people because after all, his word hadn't been written yet. How bout those Chinese people who had their own religions prior to Christianity? Are they all in hell right now? How about the Sumerians? They all in hell? Assyrians? Babylonians? How about all those Jewish people who died prior to the invention of Judaism? Are all those people in hell?

Do you think God really wastes souls on bodies he knows are just not right with him?

Good God almighty... your argument is not only laughable, it's insane.

God wastes nothing on the universe, and he certainly doesn't waste millions or billions of souls. If he did, then there'd be no reason for any of us to live, because after all, we're just a waste of time anyway right?

What floors me even more, is the belief that the only religion in the world, or the only real religion in the world, is the one that is the most popular.

Not only does every religion offer you protection from evil, but will also sell you salvation at a price as well.

Keep buying your lie Rowdee, and keep deluding yourself that your religion is the only one that's right. I think that if any one of us is going to be disappointed, it's going to be you.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-08-17   2:32:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: TommyTheMadArtist, rowdee, *Bereans* (#88)

Tommy, while it is not my desire to antagonize you further, I would not want you to think there are no answers to your criticisms.

Which means, prior to the Christian Church, and prior to Jesus Christ, everyone went to hell when they died.
Yeah... I'm sure that God had a big plan for that one didn't he. Totally waste all those souls prior to the word of Jesus Christ. God just discarded ALL those people because after all, his word hadn't been written yet. How bout those Chinese people who had their own religions prior to Christianity? Are they all in hell right now? How about the Sumerians? They all in hell? Assyrians? Babylonians? How about all those Jewish people who died prior to the invention of Judaism? Are all those people in hell?

The criticism is often raised that, if salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ, then how could people who lived before Jesus ever be saved?

Salvation then was as it has always been and still is; by faith in the Lord.

Because God is triune, (Father, Son and Spirit) a sincere faith in God the Redeemer was inherently a sincere faith in the future redemptive atonement of Immanuel, God the Son as Christ among us, even though the earthly identity of Jesus was not yet known.

Faith in God for redemption from sin was understood by Old Testament people:

Job 19:25-26 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. (26) "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;

It is uncertain when Job was written, but scholars generally agree the events described in Job were co-temporaneous with Abraham (before 1500 BC ), and the writing of the book itself most likely soon thereafter, but not later than Solomon (950 BC). The point being, this is the earliest reference that salvation is by faith in God.

Gen 6:8-9 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. (9) These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. ... Gen 7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, "Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time.

Noah believed in and trusted God and God saved Noah through the ark. The ark is a 'type' (a model or example) of Christ, Noah was saved by literally being in the ark provided by God, just as Christ proclaimed salvation by being in Him. Salvation is by faith in God.

Gen 22:8 Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together. ... Gen 22:12-13 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (13) Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.

Abraham demonstrated his faith in God, that God himself would provide a substitute sacrifice for his son Issac, and God indeed substituted a ram for Issac. Abraham is also declared a friend of God forever (2Ch 20:7 and Isa 41:8).

Hab 2:4 "Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.

Pro 23:11 For their Redeemer is strong; He will plead their case against you. Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isa 59:20 "A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD. Jer 50:34 " Their Redeemer is strong, the LORD of hosts is His name; He will vigorously plead their case So that He may bring rest to the earth, But turmoil to the inhabitants of Babylon.

There are numerous passages in the OT that declare God to be Israel's redeemer.

The entire Old Testament sacrifical system taught that redemption or salvation from sin required a blood sacrifice.

Lev 17:11 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

But it was not a permanent atonement for sin. The animal sacrifices had to be done annually. But they reinforced that the wages of sin are death and that one day God would provide His own Lamb of God, a perfect, permanent once for all, blood sacrifice to redeem all who are faithful.

Isa 1:11 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats. ...Isa 1:16-20 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, (17) Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. (18) "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. (19) "If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land; (20) "But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword." Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Heb 10:11-14 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; (12) but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, (13) waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. (14) For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Daniel even prophecied when Messiah the Prince would appear:

Dan 9:24-26 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. (25) "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. (26) "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The writer of Hebrews explained that the Israelites lead by Moses out of Egypt had the good news (salvation by faith in God) preached to them as well, but they failed to exercise faith and instead were disobedient:

Heb 3:16-4:6 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? ... So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. ... (2) For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. ... (6) Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

So God in fact had provided for the salvation of those people who lived before Jesus that had faith in God's redemption. Salvation is by faith in God.

In the gospel of Luke, it is taught that prior to Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, that upon death, those who:

Luk 16:22-26 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. (23) "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' (25) "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. (26) 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

With Jesus Christ earthly ministry then, three things changed:

  1. The sacrifical lamb of God for all mankind, the "Redeemer" of the Old Testament, had arrived, and a "name" under heaven by which we must be saved was now given (Act 4:12). Jesus Himself taught that all of scripture (Old Testament) had spoken of Him:

  2. Hence forth, upon death, believers in Christ would be present with the Lord, rather than wait in Abraham's bosom:

    2Co 5:6-8 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- (7) for we walk by faith, not by sight-- (8) we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

  3. Atonement for sin (making the previously anticipated redemption possible) was made by Jesus' sacrifice.

    Heb 9:11-15 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; (12) and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. (13) For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, (14) how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (15) For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Consequently, all those prior to Jesus earthly ministry who had exercised faith in God (faith in a Redeemer that God would provide) were now released from Abraham's bosom to be present with the Lord, while those who had rebelled against God remained condemned:

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."

1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (19) in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, (20) who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

So prior to Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, it was always understood that salvation was by faith in God the Redeemer, a Redeemer that was prophecied to come, a Redeemer that would permanently fulfill what the animal sacrifices could not, a Redeemer who would free the captive saints waiting in Abraham's bosom. Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross subsequently paid their sin debt. Their faith in their Redeemer was not in vain but was rewarded.

A final point about the bigger picture underlying your criticisms:

By example, you do not judge the authors of the Constitution or the Constitution itself by the actions of the current administration or congress. No. You are acutely aware of how their actions are in violation of what the framers had written and intended. You know this because you have read or studied what the Constitution actually says.

I would encourage you to temporarily suspend your anger and disbelief, assume that what the bible says is different from how "Religion" behaves, and go read the bible for yourself.

You are laboring under a great many falsehoods about what the bible actually says.

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-17   15:01:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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