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Title: The "Rapture" Business -- Part Two
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Aug 14, 2006
Author: Enderby
Post Date: 2006-08-14 22:09:58 by Enderby
Keywords: None
Views: 2666
Comments: 146

I was involved, the other day, in another thread here at Freedom4um, in which the discussion turned to the question of whether "the rapture" is a Biblically-supported concept. After exchanging a post or two with Yertle Turtle and Zipporah, I began to wonder whether we were all working from the same definition of "rapture." Having done some reading, I still think that's the problem (definitional differences, that is). 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 says (NASB translation, emphasis added by me): For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The term "rapture" cames from the Latin verb raptus, meaning "to seize, catch, or carry away." The same verb supplies the root of the name of a whole category of birds that get their groceries in this way: "raptors" are eagles, hawks, buzzards, condors, and so on. If we take "rapture" to mean simply a catching-up from above (which, since I am a simple-minded person, is how I understand the term), I don't think there can be much dispute about whether living believers will be removed from the earth's surface and drawn to the Lord, following the general resurrection of the believing dead. I gather, however, from the reading to which Zipporah was kind enough to provide a link, that others have added to that meaning. I am reproducing the text from that link here, and interjecting some comments in italic font.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Does the Bible teach the "Rapture"?

By Donald Hochner

There are many Christians today who would love to be able to escape the troubles of this world. They believe that the Church will be "raptured" just before the great tribulation or the destruction of this world, depending on which "futurist" view you hold to. However, this kind of "escapism" is not taught in Scriptures.

"Rapture," "futurism," and "escapism" haven't been defined yet -- nor will they be in the rest of Mr. Hochner's essay. And that's not good.

Also there is no guarantee in Scriptures that would lead us to believe that the Church will be "caught up" in order to avoid suffering or persecutions because Jesus prayed that the Father would "not to take them (elect) out of the world, but to keep them from evil one" (John 17:15).

But what if there was some other reason for a catching-up? I agree with Mr. Hochner that the church is not promised immunity from suffering and persecution. Indeed, the New Testament is pretty well filled with promises to the contrary: promises that were already being made good for the savagely-persecuted first century church. Also, I think Mr. Hochner is stealing a base by putting that parenthetical "elect" after "them" in John 17:15. As usual, context is everything; this is right in the middle of a chapters-long discourse by Jesus to his twelve disciples at the Last Supper, and the "them" absolutely refers to those disciples. What is said may apply also to believers in general, and it may not ... but the plain and direct meaning of the text is not to be casually "blown off" with a single word in parentheses. Besides, when Jesus says He's not praying for His disciples to be taken out of the world right then, that obviously does not mean that they will never be taken out of the world in any way, at any time. Every one of them died, as have all believers that I know of since then, apart from the small minority of us who are alive today -- and I'm old enough now that I can sort of see my opportunity to sneak off by way of the grave coming up, too.

The "rapture" theme is the most popular and well-known subject among evangelical Christianity. Most believe (I once did) that we will "zoom" up to meet with Christ in the air without experiencing physical death or have our faith tested, to see whether it be real or not. They usually refer the passages in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 as their proof text. But I believe they have taken these verses out of context. Most futurist's views have fallen short in their failure to properly take into account the historical-grammatical and cultural context of the prophecies; specifically what they meant to their first century audience.

In order to understand the passage in 1 Thes. 4:13-18, we must understand the overall view of this epistle by Paul and the NT writers before we come to any conclusion. These passages will be our anchor for this brief study. We cannot look at all the instances for this would be time consuming, and the space required would be prohibitive. You may be able to discern more of the meaning after reading what I have written.

Of course, we must go back into the beginning of this epistle of 1 Thessalonians. It was Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy's greeting to the church of the Thessalonians in the first century (about AD 50's). Anytime you see the word "we", it means Paul, Silvanus, Timothy, and the brethren in their time, not to us as the readers in the present time. Keep in mind that the NT was written for us, not to us.

Very true ... and Mr. Hochner might have wanted to keep that in mind himself, when he inserted his personal assumption into John 17:15, as I noted above.

Paul wrote in this epistle, that they were "in much tribulation" (1:6). They had already "suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amid much opposition" (2:2). From what quarter was the persecution? It was from the apostate Jews. This can be found in this epistle:

"For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the Prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost" (2:14-16).

Does the phase "fill up the measure of their sins" in verse 16 ring a bell? Yes it does. This can be found in Matt. 23:

"Consequently you bear witness against yourself, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zecheriah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things shall be upon this generation" (vv. 31-36).

We must remember the context in which those words were spoken. Jesus told the scribes and the Pharisees "Behold, your house [temple] being left to you desolate!" in their generation (vv. 36, 38). Either we have to say it is all future (and make Jesus a liar for saying any of it would occur in that generation), or make it all fulfilled at AD 70 (and preserve the integrity of Jesus).

Also there is another connection in James 5:

"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and put death the righteous man; he does not resist you" (vv. 1-6).

James was the leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. He warns the apostate Jews to turn into the Lord, otherwise they'll face the wrath of God because they were living in the last days of the Old Covenant system. We know that the temple and the Old Covenant system was burned by fire during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Obviously, the word "you" was referring to the Jewish people in the first century, to which James was speaking, and not to us. Read the next few verses:

"Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rain. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; Behold, the judge is standing at the door" (James 5:7-9).

Lastly this also can be found in Rev. 18:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying 'Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues, for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities" (vv. 4-5).

Who is this harlot, Babylon the great? Most in the futurist camp would say Rome, the future apostate Christianity. Not quite! The Bible has the answer as to the identity of the great city referred to. Rev. 11:8 says the great city (see Rev. 14:8; 16:19; 17:1, 18; 18:2) which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified. It was Jerusalem, without a doubt. The harlot was apostate Israel because of her rejection of the Son of God. Before Christ died on the cross, the Jewish people cried and "prophesied" against themselves saying: "His blood be on us and on our children" (Matt. 27:25). They didn't realize what they were saying, as after 40 years (a generation) later God was accomplishing all things as the OT and the NT had predicted (Luke 21:22, 32).

In addition, what about the phase "wrath has come upon them (apostate Jews) to the utmost" in same verse in 1 Thes. 2:16? Paul even mentioned this two other times in this epistle:

"And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes. 5:9).

This also can be found in Matthew 3 when John the Baptist warns to the Jews:

"But when he (John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers (see also in Matt. 23), who warned you to flee from the wrath [about] to come?"

...And,

"the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire". ...And, "His (Jesus) winning fork is in His hand, and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (vv. 7, 10,12).

Obviously, John the Baptist was warning the apostate Jewish people.

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians not to be disturbed by these afflictions because they believed that God had destined them for this and it came to pass (1 Thes. 3:3-4, 7). They knew it was according to God's purpose predestined to occur.

Note that Paul was saying that the Lord "may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the *coming* of our Lord Jesus with all His saints (1 Thes. 3:13). The word "coming" is very important and we cannot overlook this one. The Greek word for "coming" is parousia. It is mentioned 17 times reference to the coming of Christ, four of them in this epistle (1 Thes. 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23). If you are a futurist, whether you are Premill, Postmill, or Amill: how many "comings" do you believe will occur?

I have to interrupt at this point to complain about the jargon. "If you are a futurist," he says ... how am I supposed to know whether he's talking to me or not? He keeps using these terms without defining them. "Premill, Postmill, or Amill" ... not only not defined, but he can't even be bothered to spell them out.

From my experience (I was one of them), futurists believe there are two or more "comings" of Christ whether they realize or not. Let me explain what I mean. If you are a pretribulation Premill (or a Dispensationalist), there are three different comings of Christ in the future. You may say, "No way!" I'll show you what I mean with the Greek word "parousia" in these passages:

1. The second coming of Christ in the pretribulation rapture: *1 Thes. 2:19 *1 Thes. 3:13 *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *2 Thes. 2:1 (see below after 7 years of great tribulation) *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28

2. The third coming of Christ after 7 years of great tribulation: *Matt. 24:27-31, 37-39 *2 Thes. 2:8

3. The fourth coming of Christ after 1,000 years *1 Cor. 15:23-24 (most aren't sure of this) *2 Peter 3:10-13

So, they believe there are three comings of Christ in the future. Would you agree with that? Does the Bible teach that? I have shown this to some futurist brethren, and their eyes didn't even blink! They were speechless.

As for the moderate or "inconsistent" preterist (Postmill or Amill), they believe two "comings" of Christ, one in AD 70 to judge Israel; but the literal, final coming of Christ is still in the future according to their creeds or the traditions of men. I'll show you:

1. In AD 70: *Matt. 24:27-31 (some are sure about vv. 37-39) *2 Thes. 2:1 *2 Thes. 2:8 *James 5:7-8 *1 John 2:28

2. In the future: *1 Thes. 4:15-17 *1 Cor. 15:23-25 *2 Peter 3:10-13

Look closely for the futurist's theological gymnastics here, then ask yourself if the first century brethren would have understood two or more different comings being spoken of using exactly the same Greek word and terminology. If the NT writers understood two or more different comings separated by different periods of time, we would expect them to stop somewhere and explain to this us. Since they did not do that, we must assume the same coming is under consideration. More on that shortly.

Tell me, dear reader, if this makes sense to you. Paul writes to the Thessalonians and informs them "to wait for His Son from heaven" who delivers them "from the wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10) even if it did not occur in the first century? Those in the futurist camp would say that there is what has now been an almost 2,000 years gap, because "those things simply didn't happen" when the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in AD 70. I would counter with this: Paul says that they (first-century brethren) should wait for the Son. Would it make sense to inform the first-century brethren to wait for the Son, if His coming was to happen in our time? That would be pointless to the Thessalonians, and it would make Paul's informing them useless, because these men would only come in our time.

Now, we'll do a little study on 1 Thes. 4:13-5:11. Please make sure you have the Bible in hand, verifying all that is taught to you (Acts 17:11).

This may change the way you view the fulfillment of prophecy, perhaps even the way you view the whole Bible, as it did for me.

I believe there is a connection between 1 Thes. 4:15-17, Matt. 24:30-31, 1 Cor. 15:50-5 and Rev. 11:15 as being the same event in AD 70 because of the last "trumpet of God":

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming [parousia] of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15-17).

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, the all the tribes of the earth [land] will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the our winds, from one end of the sky to the other" (Matt. 24:30-31).

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:50-52).

"And the seventh (trumpet) angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15 and read vv. 16-19).

Also, I think it would be easier for us if we can make a comparison between parallel passages such 1 Thes. 4-5 and Matt 24:

1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16 3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16 4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16 6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17 7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17 8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2 9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4 10. Unbelievers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3 11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3 12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4 13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7

Do these parallel passages cause your jaw drop to the ground? The conclusion is inescapable that 1 Thes. 4-5 is dealing with exactly same coming, judgment, and resurrection that Matt. 24 is.

If we don't relocate this prophecy of Matt. 24 into our future, then it was a prophecy to them, who were there at the Mount of Olives, when Jesus spoke, that is: in "that generation" (Matt. 24:34). We must compare Scriptures with Scriptures to interpret them properly. It does not matter what you or I may think, but what saith the Scripture? I do not care what the "prophecy experts" may say; it is the Word of God, "sola scriptura" that makes the decision for me. The futurists realize that a true analysis of biblical text related to the timing of prophetic events endangers their eschatological position.

You might ask, "but doesn't the Bible say that we shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air?" Yes it does, but what does the word "air" means? Is it in our atmosphere or the air we breath?

Well, I'm just a simpleminded man, but I would suppose from reading 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that the "air" being referred to here is the kind of "air" that contains "clouds." Now, maybe those "clouds" can be spiritualized away too. But what happened to the exegetical principle that the plain and straightforward meaning of a text is the preferred one?

We can compare with other Scriptures in Eph 2:2: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." The word "air" is an another word for heavenly or spiritual realm. Satan was always an opponent of the scheme of the redemption as we can see throughout the Bible. He was (but is no longer) the prince of the power of the air. In Rom. 16:20 Paul says that Satan would be crushed "shortly" (see Gen 3:15). Jesus now has taken over that sphere and rules in the "air" with the saints since the destruction of Jerusalem. If that is the same "air" where the saints were to meet and be gathered, then there is no necessity for us to believe that the rapture gathering and meeting was to be physical and visible either. It was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the ingrafted Gentiles was transformed (and transferred) into Christ's new spiritual Israel (new covenant) when the old fleshly-based (old covenant) was taken away in AD 70. The "gathering together" is the heavenly places in Christ - the spiritual kingdom of God. Satan is no longer around here; he is now in the lake of fire.

Also notice what Paul wrote: "By the word of the Lord, thatwe who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord" in both verses 15 & 17 of 1 Thessalonians. They were expecting of an imminent parousia in their lifetime. We need to step back out of our 20th century mindset and stop looking at the NT as if it was written in our generation. Otherwise Paul was mistaken and not an inspired writer. The Bible is inerrant, infallible, and sufficient.

As we have seen 1 Thes. 5 cannot be isolated from the context of 1 Thes. 4. 2 Thessalonians cannot be ignored either. In this context (1 Thes. 4:13-5:11) Paul calls this parousia, "the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:15) and the "day of the Lord" (1 Thes. 5:2 with numerous passages in the OT and the NT) and says it will be like "a thief in the night" (see Matt. 24:42-44; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 3:3) with "birth pangs" (1 Thes. 5:2-3) in the same event during the first century. The "destruction" of Jerusalem had come upon them in AD 70 (1 Thes. 5:3) from the Roman armies as God's instrument.

In conclusion, there is no evidence in the NT that teaches the two comings of Christ in the first century and another one in the future. Also, nowhere is there any mention of a multi-coming of Christ like as the Dispensationalist system claims (parousia or "rapture" before 7 years of tribulation, the parousia after the great tribulation and the parousia at the end of 1,000 years).

The word "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible, neither is it taught there.

Ah, now where have I heard an "argument" like that before? Why, I believe it was the last time I had a crew of Jehovah's Witnesses in my living room, explaining solemnly that the word "trinity" appears nowhere in Scripture. And they're correct, as far as that goes; it's just that the doctrine of the trinity is supported so extensively by Scripture. I'm always ready to hear a reasoned argument that says I've misunderstood 1 Thessalonians 4, or any other part of the Bible; but I'm short on patience with "the word '[fill in word here]' isn't in the Bible. Mr. Hochner should confine himself to honest arguments.

There is no Scriptural support for this kind of dream, and we should reject it outright. This escapist philosophy is pure fiction. We are not taught to escape reality in the Scripture, but rather to face it knowing that God will work all things out for our good (Rom. 8:28-30).

Mr. Hochner's argument depends on his attribution of base motives to those who disagree with him: they are "escapist philosophers;" they want to "escape reality." I'm sure that is true of some who disagree with him; I am equally sure it is not true of others.

He is our sovereign God and nothing can happen to thwart His plan. To say otherwise is blasphemy to God.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Donald Hochner

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I don't really have much of a detailed eschatological position. While I am convinced that God is going to wrap up this phase of the story at some point, after two millennia of church history, I guess my feeling is that it's pretty unlikely that it (the conclusion) would happen during my brief lifetime on the planet's surface. I think that the Bible's instructions for Christians are quite plain, are repeated many times, and I don't see that there's anything about the way I should live, or the manner in which I should attempt obedience to my redeemer that depends in any way on the details of how God is going to finalize history. I think that exchanging views about these matters is a fine exercise in logic, reasoning, and scholarship -- as long as the exchange is conducted with respect and charity. Sadly, that's seldom how it's done.

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Yikes! How true. I have to jump to my father's defense though. He is one of the most intelligent men I have ever known. However, he was a small town boy, raised in a different time, when they all thought our government was our friend, and he has always been very loyal in that regard. Little did we know that the whole time they were building a trap all around us. He spent his whole life, in what he thought was the service of his country. It would kill him to know the truth at this point, that he was working for a Private Corporation filled with some of the most Satanic men to ever walk the earth. We've all been had. But isn't it nice to know God foresaw all this, to a T? Kind of hard for an honest person to deny His existence.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-16   14:14:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

TTMA, you very well may have typed or said a million times that you believe in a God. I said that this thread is the first time I've read it. That doesn't make me wrong or a liar--it merely notes that I have not observed prior to this thread that you have said such.

I wasn't taught anything; I didn't have it shoved up my nose, in my ears, or up my butt.

Certainly, the scriptures have been copied, and copied, time and again over the centuries. And in numerous languages. More and more of these manuscripts and fragments are coming to light, thanks to archaeology and the opening of more and more libraries across the world.

Just so you know, translation was one of the major hangups I had as a teenager-- because of school studies that told of the middle ages, and all the religious haggling, and the fight between the church of england and the roman catholic church--I was concerned about 'man' putting their own twist on scripture.

I find it amazing that there is only something like 6,000 differences in words in the comparison of the hebrew bible, the septuagint, and kjv--and when using comparative mms like the syriac peshita, or some aramic and ethioptic or coptic mms. And they have NOT found these affect doctrinal passages. By way of example, say a language doesn't use 'the', in translation to make for ease of reading, the translator adds the word 'the'. Another language may not have a word for 'crimson', so they use the word 'red'.

You, yourself, may think that EVERY church group in America would burn, but I feel pretty confident that you have not visited EVERY church group in America in order to be able to make such a broadbrush statement. It may seem that way to you, but I can assure you, it isn't so.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$....oh yes......that root of all evil. I daresay the military industrial complex kicks into campaign funds, as do lobbyists for various other groups, i.e., pharmaceutical companies, much more than churches do....with churches being defined as one of the standardized denominations or sects.

Basically, the rest of what you wrote seems to me to be an indictment against everything you find wrong or ill with this world. And I concur that there is much wrong on planet Earth. But I sure as hell don't lay the wrong at Gods' feet.

I'm glad you have an easy to talk to God........I do too. And I talk to Him all the time. I share my happies, and my sads.......and I go to Him when someone I know is in need or when I am. It's a great joy to have a loving God who is also just and righteous.....He does it all on His timetable and methodology. I'm so happy that my God wants to hear of me and my woes--that shows He's a caring God--He's not just 'up there somewhere on a throne' waiting to throw a thunderbolt or something.

I'm also happy that He has no problem in chastising or discipling me or even letting trouble come my way. If my faith in Him is not tested, how will I know if it's good enough to get me to the end of the race.

My God doesn't need ANYTHING.....nothing at all......and especially not money! That He wants my trust, my praise is not a problem with me. We're told to spread the gospel, the good news. $$ is a medium by which this can be done, i.e., sending missionaries around the world to spread the Word to those who have not heard it, etc. It also buys airtime for shortwave radios, tv, etc. You surely would concede that these mediums reach a lot further in the world than the door-to-door witnesses, wouldn't you?

There is a very big difference between that type of $$ and the $$ where you send in $$ and a prayer request and they'll pray over it, or for a love offering of X they'll send you a vial of oil or some such.

Rather continue onward with try to discuss various points, Tommy, would you agree that you live your life as you see right, and I'll do likewise. If the world ends up as you think, then neither one of us has lost anything, right? On the other hand, if it ends up as I think it will, one of us is going to be very unhappy.

Best of luck to you and yours....

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-16   14:20:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I do know one thing - the word Christian only appears in Scripture 3 times. And it was never once a word used by the apostles to describe themselves. In each instance it was a name given them by someone else.

just want to point out it was IMPLIED, as well in Ephesians 3:14-15 [Paul again].

Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eph/Eph003.html#15

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Eph/3/15.html

The Creator made a contract (covenant) with man, and we've violated our end of that contract from day 1. He told us not to eat pork or rabbit or shrimp;

Our rabbits will be happy to hear that! We walk out of restaurants that serve rabbit.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-16   15:18:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Whew.

Saved the link to the Galatians article for later reading.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-16   15:23:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If the Kingdom of Heaven was other than on earth...

That Kingdom COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN Rev. 2l.

This is a point SO many miss... There are 3 heavens spoken of in Scripture. One is up in the atmosphere - where the clouds are. The second is out in space, where the stars are. The third is that spot out in space where NO stars are - a place we can readily see on a decent night, off towards the north and reasonably low in the sky. It's this 3^rd heaven where God is said to live. BUT, I haven't been able to find where it says that we're going there when we die. As you correctly point out, He says He will build His Kingdom HERE.... THIS planet is where the Kingdom will be - Heaven (so to speak) will be here on earth!!!

The whole purpose of God's "chosen" is to be a nation of kings and priests

Bingo again!! Another one SO many miss!!

George Gordon claims the Bible is a law book, and that's why there is so much difference of opinion as to it's interpretation... Laws are codified - put into code!! Once I started looking at that possibility, it started becoming more and more apparent to me that he is right. Like I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, if man had only KEPT the Creator's Laws from the beginning, there would never have been need for the Sacrifice of the Messiah.

Now, to tie in the 2 quotes from your post. If His Kingdom is to be here on earth, and EVERYONE that has ever resided on this planet will be resurrected; then HOW could there possibly be room for everyone? THERE CAN'T!!! Out of necessity, a huge majority won't "cut the mustard"... That's WHY the law is codified, those that will STUDY to show themselves approved are ones He can count on!! Since God laid out a law system for us, He also laid out a "penalty" system. It works just like our modern civil law system - break the law, face a penalty. Different "crimes" (sins) have different penalties. Some are a simple pay-a-fine things, others can be capital punishment - the death penalty. There are those who will keep MOST of God's Laws, and what they do violate is something minor and the penalty is short of the death penalty. BUT for the RARE individual that will keep ALL His Laws, there is an EXTRA reward (one of the 3 benefits given under the NEW COVENANT) - rulership of the nations.. The obeyers of His Law will be the kings ruling over the various nations in the Kingdom, and the whole world will be at peace, because we will ALL be under the same LAW, and have respect for the KING of Kings!!

I suspect that if we lived by His law TODAY, many many "crimes" would be a thing of the past. For example, if a kid knew he would be stoned to death for slapping his mom or dad, I don't think we would have disobedient children for long. Now that's a cruel thing to say, and it would be a heart-wrenching thing to do, BUT juvenile crime would cease to exist in fairly short order.

People mistakenly believe that back then they made sacrifices as a form of worship, but sacrifices were a form of punishment for breaking the law. The Levitical priesthood was the equivalent of our modern judges. In fact, the whole thing works nearly the same today as it did then. Back then it was the temple, today it's a courthouse. Back then if you violated the law, you were a sinner, today you're a criminal. Back then the Levitical priest imposed the "penalty" - a sacrifice, called a sin offering. So you had to bring your best lamb to the priest who would cut it's throat and burn the blood and fat on the altar, cut off a shoulder for the high priest, and keep the rest locally. Today you pay a $100 fine and $10 goes to the state capital, and the rest is kept locally. Just because the name is changed from a temple to a courthouse doesn't mean the sacrificial system is changed. So we still practice the same system as back then, but there is one BIG difference. Today our system is BABYLONIAN PAGANISM!!! This is clearly evidenced by the priest (judge) wearing a BLACK robe as opposed to the Levitical priest wearing a WHITE ephod!!! I would gladly take the Levitical Priesthood system any day!!!

I had been away most of the day, and read your post late in the day. I need to get to bed soon, so I will cut my reply short. But I do want to address one more thing from your post, that being the New Covenant.

Most people believe that we live under the New Covenant now.. But that's NOT what Scripture says... The New Covenant is yet to come, at some indefinite time in the future.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel AFTER those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

We're not there yet... Which means we STILL live under the Old Covenant, the Old Testament (verified in Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.), and therefore Mosaic Law. And since we CAN'T practice the Levitical Priesthood system (PETA would go ballistic if judges were cutting goat throats) I guess the best thing is to OBEY all 750 or so of the Creator's Laws. And look at one of the benefits of doing that - you might get to be King of New Zealand.

Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

innieway  posted on  2006-08-17   2:19:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Sorry, but I don't think it's going to end up the way you think, and as far as one of us being unhappy, it isn't going to happen. After all, if God gives us free will, I can go anywhere I want to after I die, no matter how good or evil I am right?

There's no choice by the standards of the Christian God. You're either on his side, or you're dead. Wow, sound familiar? Like, if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists?

I'm sure God deals in absolutes... Yeah... Whatever. I can assure you that when I die, I am not going to be unhappy with what happens after, because in all honesty NOBODY knows what happens after you die.

The Vikings thought you went to Valhalla. This was way before Christianity had even been invented, and yet... Do you think there are Vikings in heaven? Do you think they all went to hell, because they hadn't heard the word of Jesus Christ?

Which means, prior to the Christian Church, and prior to Jesus Christ, everyone went to hell when they died.

Yeah... I'm sure that God had a big plan for that one didn't he. Totally waste all those souls prior to the word of Jesus Christ. God just discarded ALL those people because after all, his word hadn't been written yet. How bout those Chinese people who had their own religions prior to Christianity? Are they all in hell right now? How about the Sumerians? They all in hell? Assyrians? Babylonians? How about all those Jewish people who died prior to the invention of Judaism? Are all those people in hell?

Do you think God really wastes souls on bodies he knows are just not right with him?

Good God almighty... your argument is not only laughable, it's insane.

God wastes nothing on the universe, and he certainly doesn't waste millions or billions of souls. If he did, then there'd be no reason for any of us to live, because after all, we're just a waste of time anyway right?

What floors me even more, is the belief that the only religion in the world, or the only real religion in the world, is the one that is the most popular.

Not only does every religion offer you protection from evil, but will also sell you salvation at a price as well.

Keep buying your lie Rowdee, and keep deluding yourself that your religion is the only one that's right. I think that if any one of us is going to be disappointed, it's going to be you.

What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-08-17   2:32:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

All the people who ever lived on this planet will be resurrected, judged, and of course go to heaven or hell based on what?

Laws that they never knew? All those millions and billions of people who lived prior to the invention of Judaism, or Christianity, are going to be judged according to the laws of Christianity.

How about Neolithic man? How about Neanderthal Man? They going to get judged too? How about Australopithicus? Will those little half-monkeys be judged?

I think it's hilarious the notion that everyone gets judged when they die on the merits of their lives considering that even God uses people to do evil things from time to time in order to prove to the world that there is a need to be good.

God, Satan, there's no difference between the two. They're the two halves of the same coin, and the funniest part yet, is that we had to invent both God, and The Devil in order to reward or penalize the behavior of human beings since the dawn of time.

Let me know how your rapture camp goes. Me? I'm going to stay away from God's people, as apparently they're the first people who get to die.

What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-08-17   2:37:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I would be hard-pressed some 1950 years +/- later to brand him as a phony.

Me too.

God had no problem eliminating them and setting up a decent king.

He sure didn't. He told us He's a jealous God. Better play right, or the game can get mighty rough.

It wasn't long before it dawned on me that translation was a major issue.

Translation is a HUGE issue. There are over 170 MIStranslations in the Scriptures. One is the word rib in the story of the creation of Eve. The literal translation of the Hebrew word is curve. But I'm sure that in 1611 it made no sense to the translators that curve was what was written. "And God took a curve from Adam".... I bet that one had them scratching their head a while. They settled on rib because that's all that made sense to them. Of course it didn't even make sense to the writer either I bet. After all he obviously didn't mean a rib bone or else he would have said that. He used the word bone in the next paragraph. With modern science we now know about the helix - the DNA curve. NOW it makes sense!! Same for the word Easter, albeit this was an INTENTIONAL mistranslation. The translators could NOT find anything about Easter anywhere!!! Since it was already a "christian" practice in 1611, they had to justify it somehow, and they deliberately mistranslated pascha (passover) into the word Easter... SHAME SHAME!!! But we caught it!!

You mention some foods, i.e., rabbit, pork, and shrimp as being unclean. That was in O/T times given to the Israelites. THere were numerous other things, too. And I believe there was a health reason for that, as an aside. However, In Acts 10:10 - 16, Peter was shown a whole bounty of things and told that what God had cleansed was ok to eat.

Not really as an aside at all. It was a health reason period. Still is. The quote from Acts 10 is misunderstood. Of course, what God had cleansed was OK to eat. But it doesn't say pork et al was cleansed. Peter knew it too. In a minute, I will show you how YOUR quote reveals that indeed we should still obey the food laws.

Which just goes to show that it is impossible to obtain salvation or everlasting life thru keeping the law(s).

Why???? Not because it's impossible, more like we don't WANT to. We can always find an excuse. He told us not to wear fabrics mingled of woollen and linen. Ever try to find socks made of one single fabric?? It's easy to find 'em that are 99% cotton, 1% rayon... BUT I'm here to tell ya - they DO exist!!!! EXCUSES..... Man's fatal flaw.

And I must say that I believe much/most/all of the laws (vs the commandments) were given to the nation Israel as tools to illustrate that with God, goodness, rightness, and prosperity come. Many of the laws were given to prevent dissention with the base unit of society--the family. Example: certain marriages banned. Laws on the land use would show that by following God's laws, provision was made for the years there were nothing. Laws on foods no doubt involved health issues--back then there wasn't penicillin and other sorts of 'miracle' drugs.

ALL of the Creator's Laws were given us with our prosperity in mind. He didn't give them to us for His benefit!! He told us not to eat fat. Why? We know now that fat clogs the arteries. It leads to heart disease!!! DAMMIT, sure makes the steak taste good... He made DOGS capable of eating fat, but not man.... Maybe that's why He made dogs!! There is NOTHING, and I do mean NOTHING that is in our 2 MILLION laws in the US (in our roman civil law) that is NOT covered in God's Laws.. From Family Law, to Travel (including insurance and the rest of the transportation code) to Societal Law, to Health Code........ He had it ALL covered with only 759 Commandments, Statutes, and Judgements.. I promised to show the food laws reason of uncleanness. Look at your quote. TRUE, we now have penecillin (ivermectin is used abundantly in hogs) which "deal" with the trichonosis which pigs are a major carrier of... Trichonosis is a parasite which can burrow into the human brain causing death!! Nasty little bug!! So now we can kill it with ivermectin. BUT, ivermectin is a toxin. So NOW we're eating a pork chop that has POISON in it.. And we wonder why cancer rates keep climbing... Sure you may be able to eat a little poison every day without dying right away, but as it builds up...... Pork wans't clean for us then, and it still isn't now. Ditto for all the things He told us NOT to eat. If He said don't do it, we'll live healthier if we DON'T do it. Besides He also told us to NOT partake in witchcraft... The word witchcraft (another of those translation issues) is translated from the Greek word PHARMAKIA...... These damned doctors are practioners of witchcraft and the PHARMACEUTICALS they dispense are nothing but snake venom!! Ever notice the symbol of the doctors is 2 snakes climbing up a pole?? That itself SHOULD give us a clue.... God told us He gave us all we need.... NATURAL REMEDIES are what we should practice.

By taking it literally and following the laws, do you have sabbath years for your land? Do you leave some crop in the field for the poor? Have cities of refuge? Offer sacrifices? Do you have unhewn stone altars? Do you celebrate all the feast days and weeks? Do you offer firstfruits?

Yes. And no. An explanation is in order. Yes if it applies on a personal level.

The land Sabbatical is every 7 years. Last year was one. I never harvest all of a crop (I leave some in the corners). I don't have ANY cities, but that isn't something to be done on a personal level. It's a national thing, and unfortuneately we simply don't follow Mosaic Law in the US. I try to avoid having to do sacrifices (see post # 87). I don't celebrate christmas, easter, new years, fourth of july, my birthday, thanksgiving, labor day, memorial day, or any other of the "official" holidays.. The word holiday is taken from "Holy Days". The Creator gave us days which were to be kept as memorials and feasts unto Him - Holidays... I DO observe Passover, Pentecost, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Trumpets, Feast of Tabernacles, Day of First Fruits, Day of Atonement, the Sabbath (which is sundown Friday till Sundown Saturday, NOT Sunday. Sunday is the PAGAN day of the sun - sun worship) etc... That's how screwed up we've gotten - we don't even know how the days run anymore. As pointed out immediately in Genesis "evening came, morning followed, the first day".... Days don't start at midnight, they start at sundown. And even Webster's dictionary will tell you Sunday is the FIRST day of the week. God rested on the SEVENTH day, and made it His Sabbath.

And I have the 10 Commandments posted at my gates, and only 1 altar is necessary, and I don't participate in the census, nor take vaccinations, nor participate in the SS system, nor have a DL, nor worship (compound word from ship and worth) other gods (ie, ship worth to the god called government, ie pay taxes) nor raise hybrid vegetables in my garden, nor cut the corners of my beard (but I do keep it trimmed nice), well this list could get pretty long. I bet you get the idea.

Like I said, I take it all literally. As stated in 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. So I don't try to interpret anything. I figure that leads me to thinking I can find a way to justify doing as I please, NOT what God's will is. I figure His will is to do what He asked MANY times - "Follow my Commandments, and Statutes, and Judgements".

Yes, it's a little different. Maybe even a lot different. Hell, it's TOTALLY different... But I wouldn't have it any other way.. I'm hoping to end up with a really good job!! See post # 87 ;)

And I do REALLY enjoy engaging in these discussions. I like your posts!!! And I do take from them, and they do give me things to think about and give careful consideration to.

Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

innieway  posted on  2006-08-17   4:13:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And since we CAN'T practice the Levitical Priesthood system (PETA would go ballistic if judges were cutting goat throats)

Isa 1:11 To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

"interdum vulgus rectum videt"

Sometimes the rabble see what is right.

noone222  posted on  2006-08-17   4:25:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I do find it somewhat intriguing that so many things which were written thousands and thousands of years ago in Scripture have come to pass. BUT, if you read my posts carefully you'll see that I find the whole idea of religion to be a farce too.

I have spent time STUDYING Scripture. This much I can say for sure. Wherever people get their ideas, it sure isn't from Scripture (well, at least not most folks).

I think that when I die I'll go to hell. In fact, I KNOW I will. So will all of us. The word hell used in Scripture when translated from the original manuscripts simply means a hole in the ground. RELIGIONS have twisted it around to suit their whim - as you say to line their pockets or something. BUT I don't think any of us will be flying off to some nice mystical place amongst the stars OR headed straight to some eternal consumming furnace.. I think we'll just be dead.... Done, finished, dead.. And there rotting away (for who knows how long) till the next step. Could be millions of years...

But I do think there will be a resurrection. Scripture says there will.. In fact Scripture says there will be 2 of them... The first will be for those that didn't have a chance to start with (like Neanderthal). The second called the White Throne Judgement will be the final say. Not religion, but scripture. Like I said - it's proveable that many times what was written in Scripture has come true. Of course that doesn't guarantee it all will.

I also KNOW another thing. Noone 222 is right when he said "It doesn't make a rats ass what I think. Or anyone else for that matter. The TRUTH exists, and it exists independently of what any of us think." And that one we can all take to the bank.

BTW, what you have to say in the matter makes a lot of sense.

Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

innieway  posted on  2006-08-17   4:51:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It wasn't long before it dawned on me that translation was a major issue. Translation is a HUGE issue. There are over 170 MIStranslations in the Scriptures. One is the word rib in the story of the creation of Eve. The literal translation of the Hebrew word is curve. But I'm sure that in 1611 it made no sense to the translators that curve was what was written. "And God took a curve from Adam".... I bet that one had them scratching their head a while. They settled on rib because that's all that made sense to them. Of course it didn't even make sense to the writer either I bet. After all he obviously didn't mean a rib bone or else he would have said that. He used the word bone in the next paragraph. With modern science we now know about the helix - the DNA curve. NOW it makes sense!! Same for the word Easter, albeit this was an INTENTIONAL mistranslation. The translators could NOT find anything about Easter anywhere!!! Since it was already a "christian" practice in 1611, they had to justify it somehow, and they deliberately mistranslated pascha (passover) into the word Easter... SHAME SHAME!!! But we caught it!!

I'm just getting back to this thread, and haven't read it all yet. I remember reading that about the DNA curve recently...maybe it was somthing you wrote. I also read something at http://watch.pair.com about the deception or purported Masonic influence in the 1611 King James translation. I haven't had a chance to study it. Here's a link just in case you are interested:

http://www.watch.pair.com/ Scroll down to "Expose of Cutting Edge Ministries" [I can't weigh in on this dispute at this time, because I am ignorant on the issues, but will say that while I do not agree with either of these websites all the time, I have a high regard for, and have learned a tremendous amount from both of them.] [BTW, The Lost Tribe of Dan is back up! at [ http://watch.pair.com.]

Related link House of God on Trial [King James Bible, etc]

http://www.watch.pair.com/church-on-trial-intro.html

While I was looking for the above link, I ran across this one, which has been a subject more than once recently on the 4um: Freemasonry in the Southern Baptist Church. I'll put it here, because Freemasonry is one of the most deceptive and insidious attacks on the church. Freemasonry is under the jurisdiction of the Jews. [see speech in red at bottom of page: http://www.biblebelievers.org .au/luther.htm ]. It is also behind the founding of the "United States" government, symbolized by the eagle, which usurped God's planting of America: II Samuel 7:10; Ezekiel 34:11-13; John 10; Ezekiel 17:1- 10; Matthew 15:13.

'...."U.S. membership [in the Masons] is claimed at about three million, with about five million worldwide... The official magazine of Masonry in the U.S. is titled New Age. Some church denominations are also led by avowed Masons. For example, a 1991 survey by the Southern Baptist Convention Sunday School Board found that 14% of SBC pastors and 18% of SBC deacon board chairs are Masons. It is also estimated that SBC members comprise 37% of total U.S. lodge membership. (A 2000 updated SBC report found that over 1,000 SBC pastors are Masons.)"

37% of 3,000,000 would have been 1,110,000 Masons who held membership in the SBC. This estimate was for 1991. How many are there today? Also, how many Masons attend SBC churches but do not hold formal memberships? And how many Masons belong to other Christian denominations? (A Freemason once informed us that the Masons encourage their members to go to church.)...."

This was interesting as well:

THE JESUS SEMINAR IN THE SBC

Considering that over 1 million Freemasons belong to the Southern Baptist Convention, and many hold positions of authority, it is not surprising that in 1998 a Jesus Seminar leader was invited to address an SBC congregation.

"In February Jesus Seminar leader Marcus Borg spoke for three days at Myers Park Baptist Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. Myers Park is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.

"Borg denies that Jesus Christ even claimed to be the Messiah. He denies that Jesus Christ was virgin born. He denies the bodily resurrection of Christ. He denies that Christ worked miracles. 'We would say these are paranormal happenings, meaning things we don’t have an explanation for' (The Charlotte Observer, Monday, Feb. 16, 1998, p. 6C).

"In 1992 Borg stated: 'It is a distortion of Scripture to read [the Bible] as a book of the future. It has a profoundly disturbing effect, and leads to the image of God as judge and emphasizes us as getting ready for judgment. It takes us away from the world' (The Berean Call, Apr. 1992).

"That same year Borg testified that He believes almost nothing in the Bible: 'I would argue that the truth of Easter does not depend on whether there was an empty tomb, or whether anything happened to the body of Jesus. ... I do not see the Christian tradition as exclusively true, or the Bible as the unique and infallible revelation of God. ... It makes no historical sense to say, ‘Jesus was killed for the sins of the world.’ ... I am one of those Christians who does not believe in the virgin birth, nor in the star of Bethlehem, nor in the journeys of the wisemen, nor in the shepherds coming to the manger, as facts of history" (Bible Review, December 1992).

"The misnamed Jesus Seminar, composed of some 75 'experts in religion and New Testament studies,' began meeting in March 1985 (its organization was first announced in 1978) with the supposed object of discovering which words of the Gospels are authentic. After a passage was discussed by the participating 'scholars,' they used colored pegs to indicate the degree of authenticity they felt should be ascribed to it. Red means they believe it is definitely authentic; pink for maybe; gray for probably; black for absolutely not authentic. The colors indicate degrees of doubt in God’s Word. In 1993 the Jesus Seminar published The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus. This included a new translation called 'The Scholar's Translation.' The color coding was incorporated into the text to describe the degree to which the various portions of the Gospels are considered authentic by the Jesus Seminar. Most of the passages are black!

"The Seminar concluded that Christ spoke only 18 percent of the sayings attributed to Him in the Bible. According to the Jesus Seminar, Christ did not speak most of the beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount; He did not say anything about turning the other cheek or giving to those who ask of you; He did not speak the parable of the sower, the parable of the ten virgins, the parable of the ten pieces of money, or the parable of the talents; He did not say 'I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it'; He did not pray in the garden of Gethsemane; He did not say 'Take eat, this is my body' and the other sayings associated with the Lord’s Supper; He did not say 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do' or 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me' when He was on the cross.

"The Jesus Seminar determined that Christ did not walk on the water; he did not feed the thousands with only a few loaves and fishes; Christ gave no prophecies of His death or resurrection or second coming; Christ did not conduct the Last Supper as it is recorded in Scripture; there was no Jewish trial of Christ; Christ did not appear before the high priest or before Pilate; the Jewish crowd did not participate in His condemnation; Christ did not rise again bodily on the third day and did not ascend to Heaven bodily.

"According to the Jesus Seminar, 'THE STORY OF THE HISTORICAL JESUS ENDED WITH HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS AND THE DECAY OF HIS BODY' (Religious News Service, March 6, 1995). (Christ-Denier Speaks at Southern Baptist Church)...'

** This is exactly what Myron Fagan warned about in his recording back in the 1960's THE ILLUMINATI AND THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS. Rothschild and Rockefeller chose their Wolves to infiltrate the House of Sheep, to spread doubt about the divinity of Jesus. They are being caught in their escapades right and left. Oh! I almost forgot! **** I've been meaning to mention that this whole rapture thing is part of the NWO plot to make the people BELIEVE we are in the 'end-times' as spoken of in Revelation [part of the reason, being, IMO, so after the elite have set up their whole prison planet, they can sit back and just rake in their cut in $$$$ on fees charged in their cashless society: http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=32427 ].

Good article here:

GLOBAL ELITE PROMOTING END-TIMES MYTH. http://www.historici st.com/articles2/globalelite.htm .

However, I disagree slightly with the article, because, as I have already stated, I believe God intends to establish His kingdom ON EARTH....."My kingdom is not NOW of this world"." But you can get a better idea of where all this rapture idea originates. [ANOTHER good one is this ***** Left Behind & LaHaye's Masonic Connections http://www.watch.pair.com/lahaye.ht ml The first article is the one that got noone222 and myself started on the discussion of "heaven and earth" on the other thread. While you're at that site, you might want to see his series of articles on the New Jerusalem. I had started to read it once a long time ago, and it went completely over my head at the time, and I gave up on it. The more I read the Bible though, I came to the startling conclusion that Israel was not who I had always been told. Then when I read Galatians 3, and discovered that the promises made to Abraham belonged to Christians, Prophecies found their mates pretty quickly, and it SOON dawned on me that the Old Jerusalem was NOT the New Jerusalem, and I remembered these articles, and went back to the computer to look for them. I quickly saw that the prophecies I saw belonging not only to all Christians, but to America in particluar, were the same things Pastor Emory had been saying all along. I don't know if I agree with EVERYTHING he says there, and it appears he is a proponent of Ten-Twelve Tribes/WHITE Israel, and I certainly am NOT, but if anyone is still convinced Jerusalem is the God- forsaken city in the Middle East, I invite you to read these articles to see what you think. This one is my favorite [you can link to the others at the bottom of the page]:

NEW JERUSALEM THE BRIDE http://www.historicist.com/ojnj /ojnj6.htm

This is getting off the subject a bit as well, but in the end, it is all related, note where he quotes: "And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation . . . God has made us a "strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion, from henceforth, even for ever. And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion [not the old mother; the daughter!], unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion . . ."

I was reading some tax articles earlier, and was reminded of the prophecy "I will make you nation and a company of nations":

Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name [is] Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

The Royals believe themselves to be, by way of "divine right" according to their supposed bloodline to Ephraim and Judah [very suspect], the inheritors of this promise. Whereas, it is obvious, to any honest reader of the Bible, those promises are made to THE SEED of Christ BY FAITH:

Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors..... http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa053.html#10

Well, there it is, the essence of GRACE BY FAITH FORETOLD, confirming what Paul said in Galatians 3:

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

And John:

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

And Peter:

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

and from Habbakkuk, which could just as well be for our time:

Hab 2:4 ¶ Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

[wow. should read it:]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hab/Hab002.html#4

...The Just shall live BY FAITH, New Testament:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Hab/2/4.html

Gen 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.....

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen035.html#11

And this:

Jos 1:1 ¶ Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,

Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, [even] to the children of Israel.

Jos 1:3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.

Jos 1:4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast......

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jos/Jos001.html#3

and this:

Rom 8:17 — And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together......

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rom/8/17.html

The [Judeo-]British-Israel conspiracy, also spoken about on the other thread, promote that as being fulfilled in the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh. They have themselves being Ephraim, the leader of the 10 Tribes [Israel], and also Judah. They have America being Manasseh. I THINK, but am not sure, that they have us as the strong nation, and themselves as the "company of nations". Acording to what I was reading this morning, I think they could BOTH refer to us:

[1] See Bank of Augusta v. Earle, 38 U.S. (13 Pet.) 519; 10 L.Ed. 274 (1839), in which the Supreme Court ruled: "The States between each other are sovereign and independent. They are distinct and separate sovereignties, except so far as they have parted with some of the attributes of sovereignty by the Constitution. They continue to be nations, with all their rights, and under all their national obligations, and with all the rights of nations in every particular; except in the surrender by each to the common purposes and objects of the Union, under the Constitution. The rights of each State, when not so yielded up, remain absolute." http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Taxes/Citizenship/NotACitizenUnderIRC.htm

Someone at 4um sent me a link that revealed CorpUSA thugs had murdered 2 and beat nearly dead another who revealed that the State of Washington is NOT a state, but still a territory! http://www.crtf.org/fraud.html . If you read it, note the fire that destroyed evidence. The same thing happened with the 13th Amendment. It got "lost" in the shuffle of the Civil War, and destruction of records by fire. Look at 9/11 and all the evidence that was burned, and then carted off. All results of "Jewish Lightning"? A silent war has been waged against the people of this country ever since they planted that cross at Cape Henry.

I won't go much further off the subject than that, except to say that some believe that the Constitution was not legally ratified by the states. I haven't researched it, but here is where I read it: http://www.biblebelievers.or g.au/cmlaw13.htm . I would also say the number of states required to amend the Articles of Confederation, according to the Articles itself, was not the same that his Imperial Highness George Washington required in his pompous "signing statement" to the Constitution. I DO know they since then absconded with the ORIGINAL Constitution, changed the title, deleted the PREAMBLE to the Bill of Rights which would have held them to the original constitution, AND the ORIGINAL thirteenth amendment, which would have made all these lawyers and judges NON-CITIZENS, and inserted the fraudulent, communist 14th and 16th Amendments, and the 17th which allowed our Senators to be bought and sold by any and all, and made us all SLAVES.

Which brings me to another article I have not read all of, but refers to the cycles the First Israel went through when they turned their back on God, and it specifically refers to the period of Judges. [Glancing at one of your posts, I noticed you talking about the law and judges.] Excerpt:

"....The book of Judges in the Bible shows what happens to a culture that trusts in man and the flesh and their own feelings rather than in God’s law for their sense of justice and morality. Below is an excerpt from our Bible introducing the Book of Judges to make the moral lessons contained in the book crystal clear:

The Book of Judges stands in stark contrast to Joshua. In Joshua an obedient people conquered the land through trust in the power of God. In Judges, however, a disobedient and idolatrous people are defeated time and time again because of their rebellion against God.

In seven distinct cycles of sin to salvation, Judges shows how Israel had set aside God’s law and in its place substituted “what was right in his own eyes” (21:25). The recurring result of abandonment from God’s law is corruption from within and oppression from without. During the nearly four centuries spanned by this book, God raises up military champions to throw off the yoke of bondage and to restore the nation to pure worship. But all too soon the “sin cycle” begins again as the nation’s spiritual temperance grows steadily colder.

…

The Book of Judges could also appropriately be titled “The Book of Failure.” ....'

From OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BECOME IDOLATRY AND A FALSE RELIGION

http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Taxes/Articles/Christian/GovReligion.htm

I post a lot of links, etc., I know, and someone told me recently it put him off. Well, fine, those folks don't need to read it. But some of us have been connecting the dots for a long time, and I just like to save people who are just getting a clue, some valuable time, and the more people we can get to see how it is all tied together, the better, IMO. People who don't believe in or understand conspiracies, are, IMO, fighting with their hands tied behind their backs.

One more before I take a break. I saw where you said we are still living under the Old Covenant. How do you figure?

Dan 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: [See Isaiah 53, above] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, [Jesus was the LAST SACRIFICE acceptable to God, and THE VEIL WAS RENT IN TWAIN http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/27/51.html ] and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, [He destroyed the temple and the city. See Jewish Wars preteristarchive.com] even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

+ + + + + + + +

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

http://www.blueletterbible.o rg/tsk_b/Dan/9/27.html

Hbr 8:13 — In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away

http://www.blueletterb ible.org/tsk_b/Hbr/8/13.html

The Old Covenant went the way of their false religion. To signify the end of the Old Covenant was one of the main reasons Jesus destroyed the temple and the city. No more sacrifices allowed. You do know they tried to rebuild it don't you. That's an interesting story. Search Temple Jerusalem GREAT BALLS OF FIRE. God wouldn't let it be rebuilt, because He has a New Covenant, and a New People, who are His New Temple.

To revert to salvation by the law, is to deny the reason for Christ's coming in the first place, which of course plays right into the hands of those who would destroy us.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-17   14:16:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Isa 1:11 To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Good one! and here's another:

Isa 66:1 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest?

[I heard Pat Robertson quoting this one time, and he interpreted it as God wanting the Jews to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. No, God was talking about His House, the same "House" God talked to David about, a SPIRITUAL House]

Isa 66:2 For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Isa 66:3 ¶ He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

[and now God proceeds to talk about PROPHETIC Israel:]

Isa 66:5 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed......

[NO RAPTURE here!]

Isa 66:22 ¶ For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa066.html#1

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-17   14:37:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Tommy, while it is not my desire to antagonize you further, I would not want you to think there are no answers to your criticisms.

Which means, prior to the Christian Church, and prior to Jesus Christ, everyone went to hell when they died.

Yeah... I'm sure that God had a big plan for that one didn't he. Totally waste all those souls prior to the word of Jesus Christ. God just discarded ALL those people because after all, his word hadn't been written yet. How bout those Chinese people who had their own religions prior to Christianity? Are they all in hell right now? How about the Sumerians? They all in hell? Assyrians? Babylonians? How about all those Jewish people who died prior to the invention of Judaism? Are all those people in hell?

The criticism is often raised that, if salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ, then how could people who lived before Jesus ever be saved?

Salvation then was as it has always been and still is; by faith in the Lord.

Because God is triune, (Father, Son and Spirit) a sincere faith in God the Redeemer was inherently a sincere faith in the future redemptive atonement of Immanuel, God the Son as Christ among us, even though the earthly identity of Jesus was not yet known.

Faith in God for redemption from sin was understood by Old Testament people:

Job 19:25-26 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. (26) "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;

It is uncertain when Job was written, but scholars generally agree the events described in Job were co-temporaneous with Abraham (before 1500 BC ), and the writing of the book itself most likely soon thereafter, but not later than Solomon (950 BC). The point being, this is the earliest reference that salvation is by faith in God.

Gen 6:8-9 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. (9) These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. ... Gen 7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, "Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time.

Noah believed in and trusted God and God saved Noah through the ark. The ark is a 'type' (a model or example) of Christ, Noah was saved by literally being in the ark provided by God, just as Christ proclaimed salvation by being in Him. Salvation is by faith in God.

Gen 22:8 Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together. ... Gen 22:12-13 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (13) Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.

Abraham demonstrated his faith in God, that God himself would provide a substitute sacrifice for his son Issac, and God indeed substituted a ram for Issac. Abraham is also declared a friend of God forever (2Ch 20:7 and Isa 41:8).

Hab 2:4 "Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.

Pro 23:11 For their Redeemer is strong; He will plead their case against you. Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isa 59:20 "A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD. Jer 50:34 " Their Redeemer is strong, the LORD of hosts is His name; He will vigorously plead their case So that He may bring rest to the earth, But turmoil to the inhabitants of Babylon.

There are numerous passages in the OT that declare God to be Israel's redeemer.

The entire Old Testament sacrifical system taught that redemption or salvation from sin required a blood sacrifice.

Lev 17:11 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

But it was not a permanent atonement for sin. The animal sacrifices had to be done annually. But they reinforced that the wages of sin are death and that one day God would provide His own Lamb of God, a perfect, permanent once for all, blood sacrifice to redeem all who are faithful.

Isa 1:11 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats. ...Isa 1:16-20 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, (17) Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. (18) "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. (19) "If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land; (20) "But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword." Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Heb 10:11-14 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; (12) but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, (13) waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. (14) For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Daniel even prophecied when Messiah the Prince would appear:

Dan 9:24-26 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. (25) "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. (26) "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The writer of Hebrews explained that the Israelites lead by Moses out of Egypt had the good news (salvation by faith in God) preached to them as well, but they failed to exercise faith and instead were disobedient:

Heb 3:16-4:6 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? ... So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. ... (2) For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. ... (6) Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

So God in fact had provided for the salvation of those people who lived before Jesus that had faith in God's redemption. Salvation is by faith in God.

In the gospel of Luke, it is taught that prior to Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, that upon death, those who:

• had faith in God went to "Abraham's bosom" to await redemption;
• rebelled against God went to hell to await final judgement:

Luk 16:22-26 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. (23) "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' (25) "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. (26) 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

With Jesus Christ earthly ministry then, three things changed:

1. The sacrifical lamb of God for all mankind, the "Redeemer" of the Old Testament, had arrived, and a "name" under heaven by which we must be saved was now given (Act 4:12). Jesus Himself taught that all of scripture (Old Testament) had spoken of Him:
   • Luk 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
     
   • Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. "

   • Isa 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
     
   • Mic 5:2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."
     
   • Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;
     
   • Isa 53:3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
     
   • Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.
     
   • Psa 22:18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.
     
   • Psa 69:21 They also gave me gall for my food And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
     
   • Isa 53:9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
     
   • Psa 16:10 For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
     
   • Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

2. Hence forth, upon death, believers in Christ would be present with the Lord, rather than wait in Abraham's bosom:

   2Co 5:6-8 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- (7) for we walk by faith, not by sight-- (8) we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

3. Atonement for sin (making the previously anticipated redemption possible) was made by Jesus' sacrifice.

   Heb 9:11-15 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; (12) and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. (13) For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, (14) how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (15) For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Consequently, all those prior to Jesus earthly ministry who had exercised faith in God (faith in a Redeemer that God would provide) were now released from Abraham's bosom to be present with the Lord, while those who had rebelled against God remained condemned:

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."

1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (19) in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, (20) who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

So prior to Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, it was always understood that salvation was by faith in God the Redeemer, a Redeemer that was prophecied to come, a Redeemer that would permanently fulfill what the animal sacrifices could not, a Redeemer who would free the captive saints waiting in Abraham's bosom. Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross subsequently paid their sin debt. Their faith in their Redeemer was not in vain but was rewarded.

A final point about the bigger picture underlying your criticisms:

By example, you do not judge the authors of the Constitution or the Constitution itself by the actions of the current administration or congress. No. You are acutely aware of how their actions are in violation of what the framers had written and intended. You know this because you have read or studied what the Constitution actually says.

I would encourage you to temporarily suspend your anger and disbelief, assume that what the bible says is different from how "Religion" behaves, and go read the bible for yourself.

You are laboring under a great many falsehoods about what the bible actually says.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-17   15:01:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I always welcome your input Starwind.......you speak with more eloquence or clarity than I ever could.

Thank you for your kind words and encouragment.

No doubt your style reaches many who are put off by mine.

The body needs all it's parts.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-08-17   15:05:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Isa 66:5 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed......

Yes, the ten tribes of Israel were cast out, but so was JOSEPH, and I ran across another verse a little while ago, that points to true Israel being from all nations:

Isa 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

http://www.blueletterb ible.org/tsk_b/Isa/25/7.html

I've been meaning to mention as well, that I believe the "low tree" in Ezekiel 17:24 refers to Isaiah 66:5.

and this about Joseph:

Gen 49:22 Joseph [is] a fruitful bough, [even] a fruitful bough by a well; [whose] branches run over the wall:

Gen 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot [at him], and hated him:

Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty [God] of Jacob; (from thence [is] the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

Gen 49:25 [Even] by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb: .... [O beautiful for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain, for purple mountains majesty, above the fruited plain, America, America God shed His grace on thee, and crowned thy good, with brotherhood from sea to shining sea....."

Gen 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren......

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen049.html#22

Maybe this is why Joseph was named with Manasseh as being sealed in Rev. 7, instead of Ephraim. Joseph is Israel. Remember his dream, the one that got his broters riled up that HE should rule over them, and they sold him into slavery. In the end they came and worshipped at his feet. Genesis 50:18. Revelation 3:9.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-17   15:18:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

No doubt your style reaches many who are put off by mine.

The body needs all it's parts.

Amen. Starwind, you can teach at my church anytime, if I had one. Do you have an online ministry? You'd be good at it.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-17   15:33:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Much interesting 'stuff' to think over, even more.

Re the food issue, i.e., pork, and the trichomoniasis. The people back in those times were not aware of this 'bug'. Neither were they equipped with meat thermometers to be able to cook it to such a degree as to kill the bugs.

Scripture was written in their language for them to understand, whether they were readers or listeners. And as you suggest, and I concur, as do most linguists, if not all, that languages change over time, in clarity and meaning. Take Hebrew........there are several 'upgrades', if you will. Today's Hebrew is not what was written back in the days of Moses, or Isaiah.

In that post #87 which I went back to read again, one thing that caught my eye was the comparision of the priest to the judges of today. And in particular, the comment that the priest decided the penalty, or sacrifice. I disagree with this because God set out what the sacrifices and offerings were to be. I see the priest more as the 'executioner' or 'executor' of the judge's (God) decision.

I don't see what we are doing as 'private interpretation' in that I believe the Scriptures repeat thruout from beginning to end. I haven't seriously gotten to the end in my studies, but I've recently read a good bit of info regarding Revelations, and it seems stocked full of symbols which come from the O/T.

Yes, you are so right, I believe, in thinking that had His commandment been kept from the get/go, Christ wouldn't have had to do what He did for all of mankind.

BTW, as I prepare to start the more indepth study in N/T, I will be looking with even wider open eyes thanks to input from folks like you, noone222, and ATKHAATKM.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-17   15:49:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Wasn't God not taking delight in the offerings because of the by rote/indifferene/hypocritical 'heart and soul' attitude of the people, their priests, and leaders? That's what I have taken away from passages like this.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-17   15:53:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I wanted to mention something about the co-mingling of fabrics, or threads.......making a blend of wool and some other fabric, i.e., rayon, or even goat hair. Let a moth get into the bag where you keep your wool blended garment and you'll quickly see why you don't mix the two. Of course, in todays' world we have things like moth balls or cedar balls which moths don't like. Back in those days, it would have been harder on nomadic peoples to pack around cedar balls, which would have had to have been imported from Lebanon.

I figured that one out because I use to be a shepherdess and wool producer. And tried my hand at spinning yard. Made articles from wool. Read articles that told me how to preserve the finished garments without moths. Learned. So when I read this in the O/T, I understood about not co=mingling fibers/fabrics. Nothing like working hard to make a garment, getting it all sewn together properly, wearing it once or twice, and then on the third go round, finding instead of a jacket, I had a vest. Or instead of a vest I had a collar!! :)

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-17   16:14:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

To be honest Rowdee, I think someone's been tampering with the Scriptures. That quote is from Isaiah ... the Book of Isaiah was found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls ... in its entirety.

God told us not to carve idols, or make graven images. He makes it clear that this universe is all His, so we can't really offer Him anything ... except like Doc said "our complete trust" totally for everything. That's one thing Doc said that I know is true.

"interdum vulgus rectum videt"

Sometimes the rabble see what is right.

noone222  posted on  2006-08-17   20:18:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I wanted to expand my previous comment a little bit. We have taken a paradise and turned it into a police state hell hole. We have violated our fiduciary duties to God. We make excuses, we rationalize and when this seems inadequate we claim "grace" ... ali, ali, all in free.

We have relinquished our responsibilities to the irresponsible. We have forfeited our children's future, and are staring down the barrel of a nuclear weapon. I don't know how we could do any worse.

Our own decadence has brought us to this moment. We have become weak, self- serving, and indifferent. We have entrusted the raunchiest of persons with our freedoms. We have become children again, fearful to tell those in supposed authority to shove it up their ass. Being treated like little children that have been scolded by the authorities, we cower.

All we ever had to do was obey the rules for a happy and contented life. But we dissed God just like we did our parents. Unable to see that these rules weren't for God or our parents good, but for ours.

So now we're paying the price, our kids are dieing in an illegal war, we're over-taxed, over policed, frisked to get on an airplane if you're not on a no- fly list. Soon they'll have metal detectors at the mall, like the ones at the courthouse, that's become the last place you'd expect to find justice. We're afraid that the government intended to protect us and our rights is going to blow something up or lock us up. People are less trusting, afraid to have a beer or two and drive home, need a license to fucking fish, and a National I.D. Card that will become a "chip" in your knuckle head.

We just couldn't listen to good advice. Ya know, Lucifer was expelled from heaven for rebellion, sound like anyone you know ?

"interdum vulgus rectum videt"

Sometimes the rabble see what is right.

noone222  posted on  2006-08-17   21:34:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

After thinking further about my commentary to your post, I must tell you something which has bothered my conscience all day.

In my post #87, I quoted you and I made the statement:

By taking it literally and following the laws, do you have sabbath years for your land? Do you leave some crop in the field for the poor? Have cities of refuge? Offer sacrifices? Do you have unhewn stone altars? Do you celebrate all the feast days and weeks? Do you offer firstfruits?

Yes. And no. An explanation is in order. Yes if it applies on a personal level.

The land Sabbatical is every 7 years. Last year was one. I never harvest all of a crop (I leave some in the corners). I don't have ANY cities, but that isn't something to be done on a personal level. It's a national thing, and unfortuneately we simply don't follow Mosaic Law in the US. I try to avoid having to do sacrifices (see post # 87). I don't celebrate christmas, easter, new years, fourth of july, my birthday, thanksgiving, labor day, memorial day, or any other of the "official" holidays.. The word holiday is taken from "Holy Days". The Creator gave us days which were to be kept as memorials and feasts unto Him - Holidays... I DO observe Passover, Pentecost, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Trumpets, Feast of Tabernacles, Day of First Fruits, Day of Atonement, the Sabbath (which is sundown Friday till Sundown Saturday, NOT Sunday. Sunday is the PAGAN day of the sun - sun worship) etc... That's how screwed up we've gotten - we don't even know how the days run anymore. As pointed out immediately in Genesis "evening came, morning followed, the first day".... Days don't start at midnight, they start at sundown. And even Webster's dictionary will tell you Sunday is the FIRST day of the week. God rested on the SEVENTH day, and made it His Sabbath.

And I have the 10 Commandments posted at my gates, and only 1 altar is necessary, and I don't participate in the census, nor take vaccinations, nor participate in the SS system, nor have a DL, nor worship (compound word from ship and worth) other gods (ie, ship worth to the god called government, ie pay taxes) nor raise hybrid vegetables in my garden, nor cut the corners of my beard (but I do keep it trimmed nice), well this list could get pretty long. I bet you get the idea.

The answer I gave is misleading. It implies that I know the Mosaic Law, and practice it to the full extent. This is not correct.

For instance, I answered that I practiced the land Sabbatical last year. I have 2 fields which are put into wheat. Last year I made the choice to rest one of those fields. This decision was based upon Mosaic Law. I had planned on giving an equal amount on the other field unplanted this year to rest the land. However, I believe this is an incorrect way of practice of Mosaic Law. It should probably be rested all of it at once every seven years. And though in the corners of field some is left uncut, it has really nothing to do with the intention of leaving for the poor. It would not bother me if someone that couldn't afford a loaf of bread were to gather some of what's left, and in fact I would even help them to gather it and run it through my mill and make flour for them with it. However, the chances of someone being in that situation is nearly nil, and honestly it never crossed my mind that the possibility could arise. So I'm probably making another misinterpretation of the Mosaic Law.

While I truly feel that Mosaic Law is what should be in effect and practiced still to this day, I'm afraid I don't know all of it yet. I have a long way to go in learning all of it. There are stipulations to a great deal of it, and I don't have it all down by any means. In the words of the Messiah, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Every dotted i or crossed t is saying that every part must be carried out knowingly with it's full intention.

As I learn something new of Mosaic Law, I try to incorporate it into my life. Sometimes I don't get it right, hopefully sometimes I do. But in any case I feel I must keep trying my best to learn and to live by it.

The whole topic has brought me to the conclusion that I must devote more time into my studies to get on the right track. It makes a hypocrite of me if I say something and and then don't actually live it or practice it in the wrong way or with the wrong meaning and intention...

I feel I have mislead you, and I want to apologize for that..

Surgeon General's Warning: Society's problems must be solved. We have the solutions and you must buy them from us. No unauthorized solutions will be permitted.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

innieway  posted on  2006-08-17   21:45:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I don't feel misled, innieway. I see you as searching out the truth as I and others are. At some point, I'm sure that attempting to keep perfect the Mosaic law would/will be broached. Maybe then perhaps it would be noted that NO ONE is able to keep each and every one of them PERFECTLY. Only Jesus Christ could do that.

This is what makes Him the only one able to meet and keep all of God's commandments and laws and is thus acceptable to Gods unwillingness to have sin in His presence. He is the only one who is worth enough to pay the price for the whole potters' field.

Sin is 'falling short of what God deems as being righteous'. As I see it, a miss is as good as a mile. Sort of like it's impossible to be 'a little bit pregnant'--you either are or you aren't. You either follow the commandments and laws completely, or you sin--whether you consider it a little sin, or a whopper of a sin. It is still sin.

Anyways, that is the place that I'm coming from at this point in time. I'm sure others will have different ideas. If I were well steeped or had a mastery of scriptures, I'd try to at least insert book, chapter and verse(s) for what I deem would back up my position. I believe my years of being able to quote chapter and verse are long past. There can't be enough years left in my lifetime to have a mastery of them.

And my Bible is so marked up and high-lighted -- well, at least l of them is-- that I'd be pretty challenged to 'flip through', and it doesn't have Strongs or other references. And to go thru the shorthand tablets used in my study time-- whew! I think the last one was numbered 26!

I appreciate your attempt to correct what you believe could be misinterpreted. I'll just say right up front, I ain't perfect. Would like to be--for HIS glory, but will settle for looking that way thanks to Jesus Christ.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-17   23:28:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Dang it.....I keep forgetting to make mention of different things that you point out that are so true. In this case, it is about the gleanings left over in a field.

When we had the ranch in Montana, we had an apple orchard, and we also had a couple of small cherry trees that could outproduce 20 trees! They were amazing little trees.

There are only so many ways you can can and freeze and store apples and the cherries. So, always, when we had an idea of what our needs would be we'd put the word out in our small community of about 650 people that people were welcome to come pick apples; the cherry trees we were more selective about who was told in order to prevent 'swarms' descending on them.

I had people call to see how the apples were packaged as though we had already picked them! I had people say they'd come, and never show up.

We had neighbors who didn't know how to raise a small garden, and the two of them would always invite others to share in the bounty. So far as I know, hubby and I were the only ones that ever went over--her own kids wouldn't even come down and pick produce!

And in northern Californicate, my grandparents used to go to orchards and pick when the owners allowed individuals to. They also used to pick wild berries. But they could never find friends that would want to go along and pick some for making jellies and jams.....but they always came round after Grandma had preserved jars and jars of it...and her specialty of cinnamon pear preserves.

People have certainly changed. They'd rather go to food banks, soup kitchens, government food stamps and the like.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-17   23:36:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Gosh, innieway, I don't see where any of those things you are doing are WRONG. It's just that we should never, as rowdee said, lose sight of the fact that none of us can ever keep the law perfectly, and that is why Jesus came to redeem us. God looked down and said NONE are righteous, no not one. Being a perfectly Holy God, He had to have holy creatures. Knowing we are only flesh and blood, he knew we'd never make it. So He came down, lived a perfect life, and went up on that cross in place of us, so that if we believed in Him as our Saviour, and then repented and turned our life over to Him, and began to walk His walk, we would be deemed righteous in His eyes, and we would have eternal life ["foolishness unto the Greeks, and a stumblingblock to the Jews"]. But the most important thing is FAITH. In the Old Testament, God said I will set a plumbline among my people Israel. The plumbline is the cross. The unrepentant thief on one side represents all those who reject Christ, and will not have eternal life. [ For those who have never heard of Christ, I believe there are other passages that cover them. Without looking it up, "If the Gentiles do without knowing the law, what is good and right...." --waaay paraphrasing, and "He will have mercy on those who have mercy" and Psalm 136, 26 verses, each one ending in "his mercy endureth forever". But for those who have heard, and still reject Him, don't bank your eternal life on that.] The other thief represents all those who heard, and have believed, That poor sinner probably had not obeyed God's law, and He sure didn't have time to obey the law from HIS cross, yet because of his faith, Jesus told him He would reside in paradise.

Here's a website you might enjoy. I do not agree with everything at this site, either [particularly on his take that the "founders" were Christians], but the webmaster [he calls himself a "Christian anarchist", albeit a PEACEFUL one], has interesting ideas on how to return to a world under God's law. He studied to be an attorney but they failed him, I think, when he refused to take the oath, the taking of which he said was contrary to God's law. VERY excellent site. A good jumping off point: A World Without "The State" http://home.aol.com/v ftfiles/Directory/5a_state.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-18   15:45:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I believe my years of being able to quote chapter and verse are long past. There can't be enough years left in my lifetime to have a mastery of them.

And my Bible is so marked up and high-lighted -- well, at least l of them is-- that I'd be pretty challenged to 'flip through', and it doesn't have Strongs or other references. And to go thru the shorthand tablets used in my study time-- whew! I think the last one was numbered 26!

Have you tried all the search helps at http://blueletterbible.org? I got a "crash course" in the Bible, mainly by hitting the letter "k" [for Treasury of Scripture Knowledge] next to a verse I wanted to know more about. They will give you passages from the Old Testament through the New that are related to it, kind of like taking a walk through history for each verse, and you can link to more TSK's from there, and so on and so on.

For example, here is the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge for Isaiah 9:6:

Isa 9:6 — For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Isa/9/6.html

After you have read those, scroll down to the section under "his name", and see this verse:

Jdg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it [is] secret?

This is why you need the concordance, because "secret" does not mean "secret", and this is one of the Masonic conspiracies I am aware of in the KJV. I suspect this verse will have something to do with the "ineffable name" of Freemasonry, because the correct translation is not "secret", but "WONDERFUL", as it is in most of the other versions [hit "V" for other versions, translations.] Secrecy is one of the trademarks of the tribe of Dan; see Judges 18:19. 'nuff said.

Here's the TSK for that verse:

"secret "or, wonderful. It was because his name was secret that Manoah wished to know it. But the angel does not say it was secret, but hoo pailee, ""it is wonderful;"" the very character given to the Messiah: ""His name shall be called pailai, Wonderful,"" Isa 9:6."

http://www.blueletter bible.org/tsk_b/Jdg/13/18.html

It won't be long, and you will be thinking of verses to add to the ones given. If you hit the letter "C" it will give you the concordance to look up each word or phrase in a verse. "L" will give you choices of commentaries on each chapter. My favorites are JF&B and Matthew Henry. [BLB appears to have added some new helps on the right of the page, and I don't know if it is just me, but I find the box for the selections now is real short, and I can't see much of what's there. Hope that's just a bug they will work out soon.]

Those are the three Bible helps I use the most. In addition, "I" stands for Image or Map....like this map of early Israel [I thought noone222 might be interested in this, in case he didn't already have it]:

The World as Known to the Hebrews (map) (According to the Mosaic Account)

Historical Textbook and Atlas of Biblical Geography (1854) by Coleman

http://www.bl ueletterbible.org/images/maps/Otest/world.html

Seriously, I got a crash course on what I think are the most relevant parts of the Bible for today, using those three helps: Treasury of Scripture Knowledge [#1 on my list, by far], the Concordance, and the Bible Commentaries. You already know tons. You'll be an expert in no time.

BTW, some of the verses link to hymns. Since I couldn't read the box for Isaiah 9:6, I just went to the index, and picked out one of my favorites:

Battle Hymn of the Republic

http://www.blueletterbible.org/hymns/htm_b_h_bhymnotr.html

I don't have sound on my computer anymore, but if I did, I would be playing this non-stop in the background.

Oh! And NO RAPTURE there, either!

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-18   16:44:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If I could add one more suggestion, I'd say to read this. There's an education to be had in the index alone!

Dialogue of Justin

Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-18   16:53:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thanks for bringing this up, All......

I have 2 others set up on my computer, not to mention tons of sources and research links bookmarked.

Until I'm at a place in my life where my office can be set up where I can do a real spread out and being able to base it around the computer, I have to continue using the kitchen table where I can spread out (and have handy other reference materials, including Bibles) a couple of Bibles, a couple of commentaries, and a dictionary, and a special commentary written by a former missionary with whom I've corresponded--he also did a dictionary which I've found helpful. And, of course, my tablet, pens, high liters, and the old proverbial cup of coffee, or perhaps ice water. Oh and a book of charts and maps.

It's slow and laborious, but for the first time I feel like I really am getting a good grasp on the scriptures of the O/T. And now, I'm just prepping to tackle the N/T. In this space of time, I've learned so much more and am seeing even more thru wider opened eyes, so I'll be back into the O/t. I do believe that everytime you read and reread scripture, you gain a better understanding...that is, if you're doing it the right way, i.e., to enhance your walk with Him.

Part of my problem, too, is dealing with lots of windows, or multi- tasking....my brain doesn't absorb this very well. Plain and simple, it seems I can't walk and chew gum at the same time! :(

I really have to have the hands on 'writing' to sort of din it into my brain. My eyes tend to take in too fast, or whatever, and I'm seeing a jumbled up confusing mess, and then I try to offset that by shutting down.......one of the few things I've been known to say that I actually hate is windoze. This provides me much in the way of frustration seeing as how I graduated high school with High Honors--just missing the 4.0 GPA.

Thanks though, and in my 'spare' time I do look around and I have a number of urls from blueletter marked as 'favorites' so I can return and 'chew on them' a bit.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-18   19:24:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Did you know there is a New Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge coming out? I think the editor's name if Jeffrey or Jeremy Smith...or something like that. And IIRC, it's also going to be on CD. IT's on my list of resources to acquire, for sure.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-18   19:26:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

That is one (ccel) of the sites I have bookmarked and have been going to. Eventually, I will have every one of sources read....whether it is on the net or thru acquiring a hard copy, i.e., I have a copy of Josephus already.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-18   19:30:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I just clicked on the blue letter hot link in your response. And started cracking up............

I see where they have added Dr. J Vernon McGee's Thru The Bible Commentaries on the OT and NT. I have his 5 volume set and he is one of the commentarians I've been using.....not because I have such high regard (I scarce know much about the man) but I wanted more than l commentary to help develop my sense of what scripture says--not that I am going to accept either one of them as 'it'.

Anyways, poor J Vernon!!!! You should see his books as well as notes I've made to myself in my steno pads! I argue with him--a lot--or should I say debate. I've even found some contradictions, I'm sad to say. But I knew all this was possible going into using any of the commentaries; and perhaps that's why I study with a built-in guard meter.

The other commentary I've been using I am fully aware of where most of the commentarians are coming from and again, the guard meter is on high alert.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-18   19:42:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I don't have sound on my computer anymore, but if I did, I would be playing this non-stop in the background.

Man, your computer sucks !

Thanks for the info about the blue letter Bible.

"interdum vulgus rectum videt"

Sometimes the rabble see what is right.

noone222  posted on  2006-08-18   19:55:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The term "rapture" cames from the Latin verb raptus, meaning "to seize, catch, or carry away."

Not to mention "rape".

tom007  posted on  2006-08-18   19:59:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

eah... I'm sure that God had a big plan for that one didn't he. Totally waste all those souls prior to the word of Jesus Christ. God just discarded ALL those people because after all, his word hadn't been written yet. How bout those Chinese people who had their own religions prior to Christianity? Are they all in hell right now? How about the Sumerians? They all in hell? Assyrians? Babylonians? How about all those Jewish people who died prior to the invention of Judaism? Are all those people in hell?

My step MIL believes exactly that, and all the Chinese, Africans etc, who have never so much as heard the gospel are to be hurled howling into Hell for an infinity of extreme pain. Then G-d will be happy. Man, he sure showed them!!

tom007  posted on  2006-08-18   20:07:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I used to listen to J Vernon McGee. He was fun too.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-08-18   21:19:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

His pic makes him appear to be a likeable person. I don't know that his looks would suggest funny, but I sure find it funny to be arguing with a damned book! I'm serious---I've got all sorts of notes written in blank spaces covering the various chapters of each book.

And when he was right on, or what I thought was right on, I'd comment like 'right!' or "amen" or something like that!!

My daughter who will inherit all my books will have a blast, I'm sure, thinking she's found confirmation that I was plain nuts!

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-18   22:03:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

At the end of his radio program he would read letters from listeners. On a few occasions, he had complaints about his strong Texas accent. He would say that they should get used to it, because that's what everyone will talk like in heaven!

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-08-18   23:13:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thats funny.

rowdee  posted on  2006-08-19   0:04:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It sounds like you are well-prepared for study. I have several Bibles, too. Most are KJV, which is my favorite, even though I know of a few of the DELIBERATE mistranslations in it., like sometimes changing "Zion" to "Sion", two totally different entities. Some of those are reference Bibles, which indicate related passages in the margins. I have found those very helpful too, except that it's like with BLB. I start looking up the references to other passages, which in turn have references to OTHER passages, and before too long, I forget where I started, which is okay too, because I am always content with whatever new things I discover. And yes, everytime I read the Bible, I learn more. Sometimes, I will read a passage I am very familiar with, and think I know all there is to know about it, and suddenly another light goes on, and I see something new. The Bible is such an amazing book. Once you really get into it, you begin to see God's plan, and are totally amazed that He knew all these things that would happen hundreds if not thousands of years before they occurred. But then I guess that is why He is God. It sure cleared up any doubts I may ever have had about God's existence.

Did you know there is a New Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge coming out? I think the editor's name if Jeffrey or Jeremy Smith...or something like that. And IIRC, it's also going to be on CD. IT's on my list of resources to acquire, for sure.

I don't know anything about that, or the author. I would be very interested in seeing it. However, I am also going to be more wary from now on. I need to go back to those articles I linked to from http://watch.pair.com, and read them in their entirety. As I said, the Wolves have entered the Sheepfold, for the purpose of destroying it. Remember what Cornwallis said to George Washington: "A holy war will now begin against America....In two hundred years, her churches will be teaching the Jews' religion..." http://[sweetliberty.org] I don't mean to cast dispersion on this new TSK, but I read another disturbing article at Carol Valentine's site, that reminded me that we are to be wise as serpents:

Excerpt:

"....Jesus followers feared the political power of the Pharisees more than the Romans. Yet the word Pharisee is pointedly ignored by most Christian leaders and all but forgotten in modern evangelical Christendom and the ranks of the celebrity media broadcasters. "Pharisee" may also be the most avoided word found in the Bible. Some pastors and most televangelists are capable of preaching the year through without ever mentioning Pharisee, except in passing by on the way to some other point. Pharisees are wrongly treated as an extinct and irrelevant species.

Organized Bible study courses rarely mention whom the Pharisees were, why Jesus pronounced upon them so harshly and never treat the Pharisee as an anti-Christ type to watch out for in our day. Celebrity Christians on national TV never suggest that the Pharisee's war on Jesus has anything at all to do with His followers, or that the sect may have survived to this day.

CENSORSHIP IN THE CHURCH The word Pharisee has not yet been removed from any Bibles we know of, but most Bible commentaries and concordances avoid any serious treatment of how they operate to control civil government, and who their successors are today. For instance, the concordance in the new Thompson Study Bible, a very popular one that is supposedly designed to help readers understand the scriptures, has all but eliminated any mention of this sect. Amazingly, Thompson new edition concordance lists only one of the 78 sites, yet its previous 1962 edition listed four. Pray tell, what happened to the other three verses it previously recognized, not to mention 74 never cited at all, The four references cited are atypically favorable having to do with Paul's own Pharisaic history. It appears the publisher is whitewashing the word and deleting "Pharisee" from its readers' vocabularies. This is unthinkable because Jesus denounced the Pharisees, the most powerful and destructive faction of anti-Christianity calling them a "generation of vipers" and "sons of Satan." But most study Bibles and Bible courses omit all but casual mention of Pharisees. Curiously, the much-maligned paraphrase Living Bible Concordance contains the key sites found in Strongs, and is well worth reading.

TODAYS PHARISEES Let us examine what has become of the Pharisees in our modern society and how they continue to attempt to control our lives. The New Testament tells us they controlled Judea at the time of Jesus' mission. Pharisees, both Christian professing and Jewish, control Palestine again today with unimaginable brutality. Needless to say, we do not think Pharisees have gone away; else they would not be tampering with our beliefs. Nor did Webster think they had gone away, as he says in his 1950 definition that Pharisaism became modern Judaism.

The venerable traditionally Christian Webster is not the only one to say this? Proper definitions are taken from correct and proper usage of that less censored age. Many Rabbis have proudly provided the rabbinical sources for Webster's definition. The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1943, state: "The Jewish Religion as it is today traces it descent without a break from the Pharisees- their ideas and methods are found in the Talmud." And Rabbi Louis Finklestein, head of the Jewish Theological Seminary, stated in his book "History of the Jews" 1949,"Pharisaism became talmudist...the spirit of the ancient Pharisees survived unaltered ...therefore any discourse regarding the Jewish religion must be based on Talmudism." Jewish leaders were in the 1950s obviously were proud of their claim to be Pharisees....."

http://www.public- action.com/911/chrzion.html

That is one (ccel) of the sites I have bookmarked and have been going to.

That one to me is amazing. Pay close attention to what Justin says about the "old man" he met. Remember Ezekiel 34 where God said "I, even I will search out my lost sheep", the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus said later, "There are others who are not of this fold. Them, too, I must bring." Remember what He said, "I stand at the door and knock...." Justin was looking for meaning and God in all the wrong places. When he had exhausted all those avenues, he met the "old man", who said "Do you know me?" The "old man" said he was looking for some of his "household who had gone away from him". He also knew the mind of the animals. I believe the "old man" was Jesus, come back looking for more of His lost sheep. I think that is why Justin came away with such an astounding understanding of scripture. That's why I am nudging you to read it :)

It goes along with a lot of the rest of this thread. One of the titles in the Index is Christians are the Seed Promised to Abraham [or something like that. I have too much stuff on here to pull it up]. He also confronted Trypho with the fact that the Jews had already censored parts of the scripture, in particular a couple of passages that prophecied of Israel being saved "from the wood", meaning the cross. It really helped me understand the Bible a lot better. So, when you get a chance.......

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-08-19   10:43:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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