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Editorial
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Title: Liz Michael on Abortion
Source: http://www.lizmichael.com/
URL Source: http://www.lizmichael.com/abortion.htm
Published: Aug 15, 2006
Author: Liz Michael
Post Date: 2006-08-15 16:42:59 by wakeup
Keywords: None
Views: 938
Comments: 40

I fully recognize two sets of conflicting rights on the abortion issue. I believe strenuously in the right of a woman to control her own body. And I also believe strenuously in an unborn child's right to life.

I fully reject the concept that a fetus is not a human being. A fetus is scientifically a human being because it carries the human genome, it is alive, and it possesses all necessary cells needed to mature to adulthood under natural conditions. It is not a part of the woman's body: it resides inside a woman's body. These things are made quite evident via ultrasound and photography. From the moment of conception, an embryo is scientifically a being of the human specie, and therefore a human being. To willfully engage in an act which destroys that human being, regardless of what the law is or should be, is morally, murder unless there are compelling reasons. It is the same as killing a grown person or a child in cold blood...

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Poster Comment:

I am not looking for debate but, from time to time, certain positions on issues need to be re-stated, especially when that life or death issue involves those who have no voice. I offer Liz Michael's argument because she has great credibility and respect among many I respect.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 36.

#21. To: All (#0)

"I am not looking for debate but, from time to time, certain positions on issues need to be re-stated..."

I changed my mind. I'm lookin' for debate. Persuade me.

http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=32558&Disp=0#C0

wakeup  posted on  2006-08-16   0:55:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I changed my mind. I'm lookin' for debate. Persuade me

hihi wakeup

sorry i didn't reply to your posts earlier but i had to deal with a hungry little one then i fell asleep.

i read through your replies and its obvious i have touched a raw nerve as you have touched one of mine! this isn't just an intellectual argument for you is it? it isn't for me either, having lost 2 pregnancies due to miscarriage (no i did not do anything to cause them) and i am an incest/abuse survivor who luckily did not get impregnated by my abusers. you made several references to a 1-year old child and i'm not asking you to explain why. i just get a feeling of immense pain and sadness in your posts.

oh it would be a wonderful world if all sex was consensual, all pregnancies went well, all children were wanted and loved...but it isn't all like that. i wish it could be but i have to be grown up and embrace the goodness where i find it but not let the bad things overwhelm me.

i stand by my ground - emotive images of aborted babies are a crass way of illustrating an argument. the loss of a woman to blood poisoning who has gone for a back street abortion because she already has too many mouths to feed is not a pretty sight either. i am in no way discounting the sadness of a little life lost before he or she is born and allowed to thrive. but i would be crushed by sadness and despair if i allowed myself to be dictated to by emotive images. it is a cheap shot.

i'm sorry but i cannot accept any position other than my right to choose whether i should carry an unborn baby to term. once that baby is born, i sincerely believe it is a different situation - the baby is out of my womb and deserves the best chance to live i can give it. am i cold? perhaps i am but when i breast feed my little one at night i don't feel particularly cold.

as to the extreme arguments i put forward, it was to demonstrate how partial it is to try to define when a foetus is "living" - is it when the ovum is fertilised by the sperm? is it when cells start differentiating? is it when nerve tissue has begun to form? and i argued that you can't be arbitrary and say "well, its obviously when..." - the concept of a human genome is so new, it is just another marker on this absolutist scale.

i don't think i'm being silly about the issues of when it might be treated as murder. i can imagine some of the psychopathic bible thumpers in Texas praising the righteous "justice" of a woman being poisoned to death in the execution room for "murdering" her unborn child by an illegal abortion, while the doctor and nurse who assisted wait their turn on Death Row. am i really being silly?

and the dreadfully difficult issue of what merits an abortion - deformity, risk to the mother's life, product of rape...all these sound good or "compelling" reasons. but then there are the other uncomfortable issues - race, colour, sex of the infant, and the future issues of designer babies too. look at the Indian villages where there are NO girl children because the women were pressurised into only giving birth to boys - they are facing a human crisis because of male dominancy. look at the women in some of the states in America who have to travel in secret to clinics in other states because if they were discovered to have had an abortion they would be criminals!

so please don't try to tell me what i should or shouldn't do with my own womb - once a baby is born, it HAS the same right to life as you or me. until that time, i firmly believe it is the sole right of the mother to decide whether it shall reach that stage. i'm not arguing about whether the foetus is "alive" or when that happens (my faith teaches me that it is at the moment of conception). nor am i saying that i would agree with a woman's choice to keep or abort a particular baby. what i AM saying is that it is HER decision to make (and live with) and when others interfere, no matter how well-meaning they believe themselves to be, they are meddling in dangerous territory that can have disastrous effects for all humanity.

(p.s. who is this "Jefferson person" - is he a member of the forum too???) - just kidding, honest ;)

ruthie  posted on  2006-08-16   7:43:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The most pro life person I ever met was a somewhat troubled young man, the product of a raped, crack addicted mother, who carried him to term and put him up for adoption.

Troubled as he was, he preferred being alive to being aborted.

I learned a lot from him.

The rest of what I had to say I had to delete. Suffice it to say I won't be around here again anytime soon.

Critter  posted on  2006-08-17   1:41:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

" The rest of what I had to say I had to delete. Suffice it to say I won't be around here again anytime soon."

I hear ya.

I started this thread and have learned that all do not see the light. I was sure we would all be on the proper side of this one. Yes, I mean proper. This is a right and wrong, correct or incorrect issue. This is one of those issues that should be a given. You don't kill babies, period, unless you have no other way to save the mother's life. And come on, is that even a statistic?

Debates are won with persuasion and logical argument. That system doesn't seem to work in this context. It appears logical persuasion is not even understood. The point is not even taken. The perspective is not even considered. "It's my body and that's all that needs to be said."

We bitch about the wartime slaughter of innocent civilians and gag at the pictures of mutilated children yet, listen as mature women argue they have the right to do such atrocities because, it is their body and men are not qualified to judge. Bullshit. I judge the practice as horribly wrong, disgustingly offensive and it should be obvious to all.

It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of life or death. I might be persuaded that a horribly deformed child could cause me to ponder the issue but, coldly suggesting that an abortion the day before delivery of an otherwise healthy child is not beyond consideration well, that is disgusting and morally corrupt.

I have always thought that given the choice between the mother and child's life, society has historically made the right call. How often does that actually happen? Rarely, for sure. But, to add risk, mental health, rape and the like just sends us down the slope to openly killing one year olds, the retarded and the unwanted. Society has not gone there until recently.

Today, I heard that a baby was born in the waiting room of an abortion clinic and the staff took it to the back and killed it. Just another drop in the bucket. "No charge for that one, we really didn't do much. Have a nice day. Have any daughters."

Some things are so obvious yet, not to all. Certainly, the right to life, should require no debate, as it is a given, even inalienable.

Father, forgive us, for we know not what we do to the smallest of us all.

wakeup  posted on  2006-08-17   3:39:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

What about killing yourself because you didn't want your one year old?

I do not make a distinction between an unborn child and a one year old.

Or shall we debate the righteous fascism of some lawmakers who see the mother of a one year old as a sub-human who loses her rights while she raises her child.

Whether a fascist or a democratic government inacts laws to protect one year olds or the unborn, logically, it's a honorable thing to do.

Well, who decides whether a one year old may be killed?

To illustrate a point allow me to switch a few words in your statement: I firmly believe that the decision to keep or kill a one year old resides solely with the mother70;

He has a "further say" as to what happens to his one year old, why not his child that you carry. You are cold.

We are "judgemental" when we decide not to kill a one year old.

I am not emotional and the issue does not strike a raw nerve any harder than when the murder of a one year old is rationalized.

This "part of my body" argument really is not sufficient to justify the death of that walking, talking, one or two year old appearing child

But, to add risk, mental health, rape and the like just sends us down the slope to openly killing one year olds, the retarded and the unwanted.

umm wakeup, i've cut and pasted some of your posts in this debate...i think something has happened to hurt you regarding a one-year old child. if you want to talk about it, pm me. if you are grieving, i'm very sorry and hope my strong words haven't hurt you more :(

ruthie  posted on  2006-08-17   4:47:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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