See other 9/11 Articles
Title: Why The 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away
Source:
Time
URL Source: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1531304,00.html
Published: Sep 4, 2006
Author: LEV GROSSMAN
Post Date: 2006-09-04 10:12:37 by Zipporah
Ping List: *9-11* Subscribe to *9-11*
Keywords: None
Views: 1059
Comments: 119
Why The 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away Turns out, we need grand theories to make sense of grand events, or the world just seems too random Take a look, if you can stand it, at video footage of the World Trade Center collapsing. Your eye will naturally jump to the top of the screen, where huge fountains of dark debris erupt out of the falling towers. But fight your natural instincts. Look farther down, at the stories that haven't collapsed yet. In almost every clip you'll see little puffs of dust spurting out from the sides of the towers. There are two competing explanations for these puffs of dust: 1) the force of the collapsing upper floors raised the air pressure in the lower ones so dramatically that it actually blew out the windows. And 2) the towers did not collapse from the impact of two Boeing 767s and the ensuing fires. They were destroyed in a planned, controlled demolition. The dust puffs you see on film are the detonations of explosives planted there before the attacks. People who believe the second explanation live in a very different world from those who believe the first. In world No. 2, al-Qaeda is not responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center. The U.S. government is. The Pentagon was not hit by a commercial jet; it was hit by a cruise missile. United Flight 93 did not crash after its occupants rushed the cockpit; it was deliberately taken down by a U.S. Air Force fighter. The entire catastrophe was planned and executed by federal officials in order to provide the U.S. with a pretext for going to war in the Middle East and, by extension, as a means of consolidating and extending the power of the Bush Administration. The population of world No. 2 is larger than you might think. A Scripps-Howard poll of 1,010 adults last month found that 36% of Americans consider it "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves. Thirty-six percent adds up to a lot of people. This is not a fringe phenomenon. It is a mainstream political reality. Although the 9/11 Truth Movement, as many conspiracy believers refer to their passion, has been largely ignored by the mainstream media, it is flourishing on the Internet. One of the most popular conspiracy videos online is Loose Change, a 90-min. blizzard of statistics, photographs, documents, eyewitness accounts and expert testimony set to a trippy hip-hop backbeat. It's designed to pick apart, point by point, the conventional narrative of what happened on Sept. 11, 2001. For all its amateur production values--it was created by a pair of industrious twentysomethings using a laptop, pizza money and footage scavenged from the Internet--Loose Change is a compelling experience. Take the section about the attack on the Pentagon. As the film points out--and this is a tent-pole issue among 9/11 conspiracists--the crash site doesn't look right. There's not enough damage. The hole smashed in the Pentagon's outer wall was 75 ft. wide, but a Boeing 757 has a 124-ft. wingspan. Why wasn't the hole wider? Why does it look so neat? Experts will tell you that the hole was punched by the plane's fuselage, not its wings, which sheared off on impact. But then what happened to the wings? And the tail and the engines? Images of the crash site show hardly any of the wreckage you would expect from a building that's been rammed by a commercial jet. The lawn, where the plane supposedly dragged a wing on approach, is practically pristine. The plane supposedly clipped five lampposts on its way in, but the lampposts in question show surprisingly little damage. And could Hani Hanjour, the man supposedly at the controls, have executed the maneuvers that the plane performed? He failed a flight test just weeks before the attack. And Pentagon employees reported smelling cordite after the hit, the kind of high explosive a cruise missile carries. There's something empowering about just exploring such questions. Loose Change appeals to the viewer's common sense: it tells you to forget the official explanations and the expert testimony, and trust your eyes and your brain instead. It implies that the world can be grasped by laymen without any help or interference from the talking heads. Watching Loose Change, you feel as if you are participating in the great American tradition of self-reliance and nonconformist, antiauthoritarian dissent. You're fighting the power. You're thinking different. (Conspiracists call people who follow the government line "sheeple.") "The goal of the movie was just really to get out there and show that there are alternate stories to what the mainstream media and the government will tell you," says Korey Rowe, 23, who produced the movie. "That 19 hijackers are going to completely bypass security and crash four commercial airliners in a span of two hours, with no interruption from the military forces, in the most guarded airspace in the United States and the world? That to me is a conspiracy theory." It's also not much of a story line. As a narrative, the official story that the government--echoed by the media--is trying to sell shows an almost embarrassing lack of novelistic flair, whereas the story the conspiracy theorists tell about what happened on Sept. 11 is positively Dan Brownesque in its rich, exciting complexity. Rowe and his collaborator, Dylan Avery, 22, actually started writing Loose Change as a fictional screenplay--"loosely based around us discovering that 9/11 was an inside job," Rowe says--before they became convinced that the evidence of conspiracy was overwhelming. The Administration is certainly playing its part in the drama with admirable zeal. If we went to war to root out fictional weapons of mass destruction, is staging a fictional terrorist attack such a stretch? But there's a big problem with Loose Change and with most other conspiracy theories. The more you think about them, the more you realize how much they depend on circumstantial evidence, facts without analysis or documentation, quotes taken out of context and the scattered testimony of traumatized eyewitnesses. (For what it's worth, the National Institute of Standards and Technology has published a fact sheet responding to some of the conspiracy theorists' ideas on its website, www.nist.gov. The theories prompt small, reasonable questions that demand answers that are just too large and unreasonable to swallow. Granted, the Pentagon crash site looks odd in photographs. But if the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile, then what happened to American Airlines Flight 77? Where did all the real, documented people on it go? Assassinated? Relocated? What about eyewitnesses who saw a plane, not a missile? And what are the chances that an operation of such size--it would surely have involved hundreds of military and civilian personnel--could be carried out without a single leak? Without leaving behind a single piece of evidence hard enough to stand up to scrutiny in a court? People, the feds just aren't that slick. Nobody is. There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet a basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. "We tend to associate major events--a President or princess dying--with major causes," says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. "If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us." In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting. You would have thought the age of conspiracy theories might have declined with the rise of digital media. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy was a private, intimate affair compared with the attack on the World Trade Center, which was witnessed by millions of bystanders and television viewers and documented by hundreds of Zapruders. You would think there was enough footage and enough forensics to get us past the grassy knoll and the magic bullet, to create a consensus reality, a single version of the truth, a single world we can all live in together. But there is no event so plain and clear that a determined human being can't find ambiguity in it. And as divisive as they are, conspiracy theories are part of the process by which Americans deal with traumatic public events like Sept. 11. Conspiracy theories form around them like scar tissue. In a curious way, they're an American form of national mourning. They'll be with us as long as we fear lone gunmen, and feel the pain of losses like the one we suffered on Sept. 11, and as long as the past, even the immediate past, is ultimately unknowable. That is to say, forever.
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
#1. To: Zipporah (#0)
(Edited)
The Bible quite correctly forbids the belief in conspiracies, since believers ascribe to "perpertrators" qualities only allowed to God -- omnipotence and omniscience. "For Jehovah spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying, Say ye not, A conspiracy, concerning all whereof this people shall say, A conspiracy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be in dread thereof. Jehovah of hosts, him shall ye sanctify; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread." (Isaiah 8:11–13). They were destroyed in a planned, controlled demolition. The dust puffs you see on film are the detonations of explosives planted there before the attacks. Imploded buildings, which always have explosives at the bottom, always fall from the bottom up. The WTC fell from the top down, where the planes hit. I've seen several buildings imploded in real life, and they always went from the bottom up. Not that the truth will ever penetrate the minds of True Believers.
"Benjamin Franklin was shown the new American constitution, and he said, 'I don't like it, but I will vote for it because we need something right now. But this constitution in time will fail, as all such efforts do. And it will fail because of the corruption of the people, in a general sense.' And that is what it has come to now, exactly as Franklin predicted." -- Gore Vidal
Hmm not so sure I agree with you.. the bible is filled with conspiracies.. plots against kings etc.. maybe God knows of them but doesnt mean that they dont exist.. evil men plan and execute evil deeds..
That is an absurd statement. Check out Psalms 2: "Why do the nations rage Sounds like a conspiracy to me.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Not sure? That's way too polite. Yertle's post is utter nonsense. Quit soft peddling. ;^)
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
OH alright! WRONG ~WRONG ~WRONG :P
Thats about the percent of people who can not name any of their elected officials or identify pictures of National leaders. It is also one of many reasons we have so many crooks and inept leaders in our Congress. (state/national) Hate and stupidity are bringing this nation to it's knees.
True .................. but why inject undeniable facts?
2:23 6:28 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603 Rick Siegel filmed this standing on Hoboken and Frank Sinatra piers, he is a NYC Jew. Blue Star Media Group Learn the truth about what happened at the World Trade Center on 9.11.2001 from eyewitness testimony and scientific analysis. High quality, ... all » three-chip digital video reveals the previously unseen reverse angle to televised coverage of the Twin Towers and Seven World Trade collapsing and a lot more. This is the only known unedited footage that contains a clear, real-time audio track of the many disturbing events that took place during the WTC destruction. Local news radio coverage was overheard playing in the background live at the Hoboken waterfront. Scientific analysis is presented in an easy to understand manner. The pictures tell the story and this is one story that all New Yorkers, and anyone who was traumatized by the shocking attack on the WTC, must see. In memory of all those who perished, 911 Eyewitness is a voice of the victims that must never be forgotten.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers Hmmmmmmm .... that's also the percentage of people who support Bush and the GOP no without question (29% to 38% depending on the poll). That is also the percentage of the population that represents the Limbaugh demographic. I wonder what the intersection between the groups is.
.
That's true but I don't know if it really proves anything one way or the other. I don't see any reason why charges couldn't be set in the upper floors to bring them down. The official story would then prevail where the pancaking upper floors bring down the lower floors. Charges could also be set on every third floor, etc. I don't know what really happened, but I don't think that the fact that charges are normally set in the basement really rules anything out.
.
It's also about the percentage that started the Amercan Revolution in 1776. There have always been more "Crown Loyalists" and "mitlaufers" than true American patriots.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers My money says it is a substantially different 36% .... all dummies ....... but who knows.
Did you see the History Channel's series on the Am. Rev. Sunday? I know the HC has their agenda but it was very interesting. Really reminded me of how many odds were beaten to become a nation. Basicly lose all the battles but win the war.
Not to mention a little help from France.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers Well the Limbaugh demographic is white males with a highschool education or less. Hence the all the snakeoil ads for penis extension pills and baldness remedies - the people paying for the ads make it their business to know who is listening - and they know only the roller derby crowd believes in this crap and buys it. So how much does the uneducated white male demographic intersect with the demographic you describe, and how much does the limbaugh demographic intersect with the mindless, hardcore Republican demographic? Seems to me they are all pretty much the same thing.
.
ok, the fires which lasted a few hours brought down those buildings...the first time ever in history that fires brought down buildings like that...even buildings which burned 24+ hours never collapsed...ok. and the government never lies and governments have never in history perpetrated terrorism/false flag operations. ok.
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=33941&Disp=8#C8 Check first 2 minute explanation of how WTC7 was an obvious demolotion. I posted these videos for Yertle.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers No, they weren't slick at all, that's why 36% believe the government did it. If they were slick then very few would believe such a thing. The problem is the nation that benefited the most from 9/11 is not highly suspected of having a significant role in 9/11 despite evidence to the contrary. Now that's slick.
God is always good! Horrible, convoluted translations R us? You contrive a broad theological doctrine based on this horrible, barely intelligible rendering? Do all of your beliefs have so flimsy a basis?
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
YT, why would a guy like William Rodriquez lie? Have you watched his story? After I did I’m convinced his material could be brought before a Manhattan grand jury and the end result would be an indictment against unidentified government co-conspirators. If you believe our government was complicit in both Pearl Harbor and the Gulf of Tonkin, why is 911 a stretch?
The study of history is largely the study of a series of conspiricies. Also, the Federal gov. certainly believes in conspiracies, seeing as they have 10,000 or so people in prision for them.
One reason is that information now is easily deseminated.. unlike in the past.. You know what made me question 9/11?? Early on? It wasnt the mounting evidence.. or what others said.. it was a document from the 60s.. the Operation Northwoods papers in the National Security archives at George Washington University: This document, titled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba” was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.” Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba [includes cover memoranda], March 13, 1962, TOP SECRET, 15 pp.
Check out pages 7 & 8 of that document..
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=1068 notice the chart on left near bottom of article
OK, so the probability that a member of the Limbaugh audience will have a college degree is slightly more that 24%. This is exactly what I have been saying - and this is exactly the reason the penis extension pill and baldness remedy people choose Limbaugh's show to pitch their snake oil. Intelligent people don't buy this sort of crap. As an aside, this is also the reason Limbaugh makes such a big deal about smoking. Most of these "virile" males smoke. Just check out any freeper rally if you don't believe me. So the 25% of people who don't know smoking kills them also intersects this group pretty closely.
.
Far too many "little" people involved.
In this day and age College education is NOT an indicator of intelligence or critical thinking. A college education today is little more than an obscenely expensive middle class license certificate. It is a control mechanism for the marginally educated and it puts people in debt almost immediately (many to the de facto government owned Fannie Mae) and starts them down the path of living a life of fear and debt from one white collar paper pushing service sector pay check to the next.
New one on me. Educated or uneducated, one or the other.
http://revolution.h-net.msu.edu/essays/carp.html I missed that one on the History Channel (I'll look for it, thanks), but it's clear that there are typically an equal amount of "neutral" sheep as true patriots, and that there will always be traitors who prefer a monarch or dictator.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers I've dealt with many educated and uneducated people for the last 40 years. I find that the corolation is very, very, very, very high. Mostly because the educated people have been taught to question. It also so a degree of drive that is not present in the other group. I think this is why most positions STILL require this requirement for certain jobs - and not because of some evil and secret conspiracy. When we hire peole, no education is a 50/50 chance they will be good. College education moves this to about 70/30. College educaton from the right schools moves it closer to 100%. There are certain schools that have never given us a bad person. Stanford is one of these. Cal Tech is another. Again, I think this is why the system is used in almost 100% of the selection processes. I have never seen any evidence of an evil, secrect conspiracy here, e.g., nobody from the Illumiati or the Vatican has ever approached me and told me to hire the dumb college guy over the smart HS dropout.
.
No kidding. I've worked with so many recent college grads that cannot write a coherent paragraph. And they cannot they read a document to understand how to do anything on their own. Everything must be spoon fed. Furthermore, they have poor work ethics (e.g. they are always sick the exact # of days they are allowed sick days). This crosses all races/cultures, however they are all young and "well-educated". Jay Leno has fun on grad night at the local colleges in SoCal. He asks them simple, basic questions while their caps and gowns are still on. Hilarious!
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers I've worked with so many recent college grads that cannot write a coherent paragraph I suppose the ultimate check would be to compare this group with and equal number of radomly selected highschool dropouts and see who performs the best. WRT to the work ethic, this is sometimes the company's fault. The recent grads have put a lot into getting where they are and they suddenly realize that they have been herded into a relatively dead end job. I rarely have trouble motivating people in small comanies where merit is instantly rewarded but is is very difficult in large structured organizations such as Lockheed or a large insurance company.
.
But we shouldn't be even thinking about comparing them. I'm comparing them with what a college grad was once capable of, and there is a big difference (just like adding 100 points to the SAT scores). Now that the masses are so well degreed (but not necessarily educated), they arrive over-confident and somewhat arrogant because they qualify for a car loan and a mortgage.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers I am not saying that those who don't go to college are just as smart as college kids. No college education is generally an indicator that a person is either none to bright or not stable enough to go through 4 years of school to acquire a simple piece of paper. What I am saying is that most college degrees in this country are not worth the paper they are written on, and are not reflections of intelligence or critical thinking skills in the slightest. American has its elite schools, sure, and students who are motivated and they generally turn out a reliable crop of students- especially the quantitatvie majors like engineers. But your typical "Big State" Enlgish major or Education major or "Business Administration" major with a 3.4 GPA - 7 out 10 times won't be able to write a coherent paragraph on any topic and lacks basic skills considered common place 50 years ago. The typical college educated student today couldn't pass muster for basic knowledge and language skills along side a 9th grader from America in 1900. If I could go back in time right before college and someone gave me the choice of going to college or giving me 100 grand right then and there tax free- I would take the 100 grand and try to do something with it. In this country college education is not needed for 70 percent of those who go. It is a joke and waste of time and money and it has become little more than what I said above- a middle class entrance fee- a white collar cubicle desk rental payment.
Oh, really? Guess that makes every criminal conspiracy statute on the books---including the Federal ones---a conspiracy against the Bible..! (Oops! There I go again....) Sorry, buddy: until the Pope issues an encyclical prohibiting Catholics from reading "conspiracy" sites, I'm gonna go on surfin' 'em... :P (BTW, why dja spell "perpetrators" as "perpertrators"? Trying to recreate how some dumbass Bible-banger would spell it...?)
The more I think about it Cyni, the less likely the need for "little people." Given you beileve what I posted about FDR and PH and LBJ and tGOT, it's possible to have pulled this off with only a small clique at top. I forgot to toss in JFK, which was also historical nonsense. His head went back and to the left on bullet impact - see Abe Zapruder for further details :)
So what? So have I---so have we all. Let me ask you directly, however, the inference you apparently want drawn from your statement: is it infeasible or even impossible to demo a building from the top down? Show us your evidence. BTW, what makes you so sure there were no charges detonated at the foundation of the towers immediately before or during the collapse sequences? Have you got a link or other material that says that didn't happen?
I'm not complaining, but that's sort of where I am at. Fortunatley it's a job that provides plenty of otherwise useful experience. I've seen a lot of people being hired in at unimaginable pay scales simply because their The faster the Aryan Nation mob at Freedom4um are caged and chained, the better off we'll be. I’ll cheering when they are forced to behave. - Aaron
there were. many many eyewitnesses...william rodriquez..multiple firemen..and more. so much evidence !!!
Shhh!!! Little Yertle still believes in Santa Claus---don't make 'im cry! :P
Explain WTC 7.
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Amen. I wonder how many here that have a degree ever used it, or are still using it professionally. Other than the socialization factor, meeting kids from around the world at the University of Texas, and realizing that not everyone was like me, or all the kids I'd known in my po-dunk hometown, I don't think that my Sociology/Bus.Adm. degree has helped, except maybe to have said that I have it.
These were powerful debris ejections, breaking glass and shooting flour like concrete at over 200ft per sec. There is even a photo of what looks like a steel beam being thrown out by one of these "PUFFS". Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
WTC 1&2 were not a controlled demolition. It was a top down controlled explosion. Talc like pulverized concrete and steel girders were thrown up to 600 feet away. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Exactly. WTC 1 and 2 were not conventional "controlled demolitions," assuming the so-called "conspiracy theory" is correct, because they couldn't be if the objectives of the "conspiracy" were to be served. At any rate, plenty of people who witnessed the actual event in real time, like Dan Rather and Peter Jennings, commented on air at the time that the collapses looked like "controlled demolitions." Close enough for "government work." :P
Conspiracy at the top by plotters with shared self interest is one thing. When little people or commomn people without shared interest are involved, a conspiracy will fall apart. Attempts to include common people into the cabal at the top are disengenuous.
When little people or commomn people without shared interest are involved, a conspiracy will fall apart. Attempts to include common people into the cabal at the top are disengenuous. As I've said before, speculation about who was involved in a 9-11 conspiracy by individuals other than the bunch of Ay-rabs---'cluding a bunch o' 19 o' them little, common Ay-rabs---that we're supposed to believe really did engage in a completely successful conspiracy to commit "terrorist attacks" on 9-11, is a pointless diversion. The 9/11 Truth Movement at its best focuses like a laser on two outstanding issues: The "official explanation" for the collapse of WTC 1 and 2 does not make sense. Five years after the event, there is still no official explanation how the hell WTC 7 collapsed. Think about that one.
Cyni, I’m a born skeptic, that said the testimony of William Rodriquez might give you pause for thought. Not only did he hear and see explosions in the basement of the WTC *before* the plane(s) hit, he rescued a person who was severely burnt as a result. I’ve met tons of head cases at the scenes of emergencies, but his story rings true to me. That said I’ll leave the finer points of 911 to other people. There are things I simply can’t answer. Unanswered questions, nevertheless, doesn’t negate eyewitness testimony which can be corroborated by witnesses. If you'd like to see the Rodriquiz testimony, give me a hoot. I'll get it to you.
Rodriguez wasn't the only one, check the 2nd link I posted to Yertle. http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=33941&Disp=8#C8
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers I am sure most people have already given it a lot of thought. 9/11 like many other "conspiracies", will live on forever. One side effect is that a few people will make names for themselves and some will gain financially by promoting its life.
Jethro... And from your profession you know they will never be answered. I saw the Rodriguiz video. He is a very convincing young man and I like you came away with more questions than answers. Accepting that he is totally honest, recounting what he believes to be factual, then there are only two possibilities. One...Something DID happen prior to the main event. Two...Or he is mistaken as an "eye witness". Which you know happens.
Saves you the trouble? 9/11 like many other "conspiracies", will live on forever. One side effect is that a few people will make names for themselves and some will gain financially by promoting its life. Oh, really? So the folks in the 9/11 Truth Movement are just engaged in self-promotion? Wow, you can take Cynicom out of "Free Republic," but you can't take "Free Republic" out of Cynicom, now can you? Well, guess what? I couldn't help noticing, having lost a friend in the WTC 1 collapse, that a few people ("big" people---not "little, common" ones that would muck it all up) have used a "conspiracy theory" of 9/11---you've heard it: 19 guys hijacking planes and flying them into WTC with the result that all of WTC collapsed in the course of one day---to gain extra-constitutional power, massive appropriations, expansion of government, "use of force" authorizations---not to mention "making names" for themselves. They've used their "conspiracy theory" to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and sacrifice thousands of lives on war in the Middle East, with no end in sight. And they're sure "promoting its life," too----they're using your tax dollars to do it on sites like this, and they get a lot more coverage and "promotion" than those 9/11 Truth people you gratuitously accuse of self-promotion. Think about that one, too. Oh, off the subject, what was your evidence that Stalin was Jewish again...? I think I missed it the first time......
I agree and that’s why the ancillary testimony available to us is so important. If this were presented to an unbiased grand jury, an indictment would be a slam dunk. Lets leave it at this; such a scheme isn’t outside the realm of some in government and the winner in all this is the group of the usual suspects.
Resorting to personal attacks is meaningless. If you have something of substance, germane to the topic I will be glad to discuss.
That's safe to say. I like how von Bulow put it, he said it's not his duty to explain how it happened, but the official explanation is laughable.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers All gerbils aside, may I ask you a question? How come you're always the first guy out of the gate on 9/11 threads, carrying water for the government with arguments like "the Bible says conspiracy theories ain't so"? Are you the "Badeye" of 9/11 threads?
You're the one who gratuitously...no, I don't mean to say that...despicably accused people in the 9/11 Truth movement as motivated by desire for self-promotion and financial gain. Do you withdraw that smear? If you have something of substance, germane to the topic I will be glad to discuss. How did WTC 7 collapse? Just answer that question. Substantive enough for you?
There is the government explanation for everything concerned with 9/11. Whether one accepts it or rejects it is for them to decide. For those that reject the official "version", they are free to disprove it.
YT always pulls this stunt. Makes 1 post and never follows up. Don't you know that those evil muslims, whose names don't even appear on the 4 flight manifests or their dna samples anywhere, flew those airliners all over the east coast for almost two hours unimpeded. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
There is the government explanation for everything concerned with 9/11. Whether one accepts it or rejects it is for them to decide. Oh? That's funny---I thought I had already quoted verbatim here this statement from a government site: "The NIST investigation of the WTC 7 building collapse is not yet complete. The report on the WTC 7 collapse investigation will be released in draft form for public comment and posted on this web site as soon as it is available." That still mean to you that there is a "government explanation" somewhere for how WTC 7 collapsed? Point me to it, champ. For those that reject the official "version", they are free to disprove it. And you're free to ignore discussions of both the "proof" of the "government version" and the rebuttals thereof, right? You ignored my question, aren't prepared to engage the subject substantively, and have limited yourself to dismissive comments and scurrilous smears about the 9/11 Truth movement on this thread. You're no more serious a debater on this issue than you are on your preposterous claim that Stalin was "Jewish." Buh-bye.
Would you support a real independent citizens grand jury/commission on 911? Or are you satisfied with the governments version? Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
"Drive by" posters, they used to call 'em... :P "Kickin' an anthill"... ;)
Mark... Firstly, as my nic implies I am a cynical old man. (politics/government) Support an investigation??? You better believe I do and would. The problem would be keeping the "government" out of the investigation. In other words, let the chickens out and lock the Fox in the henhouse. I spent my professional career in government service as a Federal drone so have at least a smattering of knowledge of how it does not work. Satisfied??? Certainly not.
The governemnts explanations through the NIST, FEMA/ASCE, SILVERSTEIN, 911 COMMISSION reports are filled and riddled with lies, falsehoods, halftruths and almost zero science. What real research was done, actually DISPROVE the governments position. I've read whole sections of each, and summeries from others. The only way NIST got the both towers to collapse together, in the same exact manner, was to use computer modeling/simulations, and then after tweeking all loads/perimeters they got the desired result, and this still was only in 1 of 9 trys. The government handed a conclusion to these paid agencies, and told them fit a report to it. It maybe the greatest hoax in modern history. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Fair enough. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
The Bible also clearly shows us that Satan is capable of reciting scriptures out of context when it serves His purposes. Your quote has no bearing whatsoever on the 9/11 tragedy. But since you brought the Bible into this discussion, let’s not forget that (in the Christian Scriptures) it reminds us that the WHOLE WORLD lies in the power of the wicked one. And let’s also remember that again in the Christian Scriptures (the Gospels, to be specific) we were given four separate accounts of how humans conspired to murder God’s Son. Knocking down a couple of buildings ain't sh*t compared to that ! And knocking down a couple of buildings in order to manipulate Americans into accepting a(nother) contrived war & a budding police state, is a scheme Machiavelli's Prince would be sure to emulate were he alive today.
very good points.
Bush saw first plane hit the WTC on 9/11 The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
Mark... Fair enough what??? I have made it plain here that I have never bought the governments version of any segment of 9/11. Conversely I do not buy into the off the wall conspricy ides that float around. It is up to the individual to use rational thinking on their own as to what is possible and what is impossible.
So we're supposed to infer that you don't believe the "government explanations" of 9-11? You don't seem satisfied with the people currently questioning the "government versions" whom you accuse of self-promotion and greed. So who should do an honest investigation of the events of 9/11? Just answer that question. BTW, I'll match your alleged cynicism in every aspect---easily. Cynicism I don't mind---dishonesty I can't tolerate.
Bush made this remark a couple times. This would mean he knew and saw it happen while in the limo on the way to the school. This is impossible since the only KNOWN video of the first impact is by the Naudet bros. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
What are YOUR "rational thoughts" on the subject? Are you at all interested in what really happened on 9-11? If not, why are you here harassing people with inane put-downs and shadow-boxing "arguments"? You can't have it both ways: you can't come here and denounce people who see all kinds of holes in the "official version" of 9/11 as crackpots and loonies, and then disavow belief in the "official version" yourself.
Your right Mark.
The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
Define, off the wall. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
You see Sam Danner posting here this past week? I think that was his nic.
A video made because the fire crew they were with just "happened" to have been called out that morning to a bogus report of a "gas leak" at a location that gave them a superb view of the initial impact on WTC 1. I never thought anything of that marvelous coincidence, until I began reading "off the wall" stories on this "off the wall" forum about other later reports of "gas leaks" in the area that also turned out to be bogus---apparently to facilitate evacuation of the area. Who was calling in all those "gas leak" reports, I wonder?
This would mean he knew and saw it happen while in the limo on the way to the school. This is impossible since the only KNOWN video of the first impact is by the Naudet bros. In the excitement of the morning he must have left without being properly wired. "If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers He's "wired" most of the time, booze, drugs, delusions of grandure.
The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
Yeah I agree there. As soon as I saw SD, I provided a couple links to show that his whole story was nonsense. As are other theories. I've been questioned on forums because I will not support certain theories. I've also walked out on a couple lectures that I thought were bullshit. On that topic, thats why I really don't discuss the Pentagon and Shanksville. Its a trap for all the "NO PLANERS". In every hit piece, the no plane theory is brought up. Once in awhile I'll post something on the Pentagon/Shanksville. I read and keep abreast on credible sites and people that look into these two events. Thats why you'll see me post alot of articles with timelines and such. Real credible proof that isn't debatable. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
The dog that didn't bark at the Pentagon is, where is the state-of-the-art video? They can't claim that all the cameras were malfunctioning like they got away with on the morning of the London tube bombings. That would be the morning that Bibi was told to stay in his hotel room in London. The morning of the coincidental ongoing terrorist 'games'. Nope, this is the Pentagon. Where's the 30 fps high definition video of what really happened that morning?
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers Here is another. Who at OEM/FEMA called the Mayor and the Fire Chief and told them the towers were going to collapse? Then BEFORE noon, the WTC7 was completely evacuated because it was in danger of collapsing? Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
This pics are amazing, robin. Is our leader wired even for everyday living? Something very odd here.
I know alot won't like this statement, but from everything I've read and seen, I'm leaning toward an airliner/aircraft at both sites. The Pentagon airliner was remote controlled and PA was shot down by the large debris field seen. Now I know alot of the evidence doesn't make sense, but there are too many eyewittness reports. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Mark.. My indoctrination to "eye witness accounts" goes way back many years ago. College professor is standing in front of his class giving a lecture. The door pops open, a person runs in and shoots the professor twice. The perp then leaves, The classroom is in chaos. The professor stands up dusts himself off and tells the class what they just saw was a test. He then has them take paper and pencil, write exactly what they saw and heard, with no talk among students. Of the numerous students no TWO students saw the same thing, no ONE student described the event without error.
Who at OEM/FEMA called the Mayor and the Fire Chief and told them the towers were going to collapse? Then BEFORE noon, the WTC7 was completely evacuated because it was in danger of collapsing? Mark As always, good calls, Mark. I specifically remember a brief segment on the "Loose Change" video where a reporter records a black policewoman calling out, "Get out of the area! The second tower is coming down!" This is obviously before the start of the collapse, because the reporter repeats incredulously, "The second tower is coming down?" and the policewoman nods and confirms, "It's coming down." Inside info? What else could it be?
Cyni, the eyewitness (Rodriquez) has a survivor (someone help me with his name) from the blast willing to tell the world what really happened.
College professor is standing in front of his class giving a lecture. The door pops open, a person runs in and shoots the professor twice. The perp then leaves, The classroom is in chaos. The professor stands up dusts himself off and tells the class what they just saw was a test. He then has them take paper and pencil, write exactly what they saw and heard, with no talk among students. Of the numerous students no TWO students saw the same thing, no ONE student described the event without error. What does your silly little example prove? That eyewitness testimony can be impeached? Any trial lawyer knows that. Go ahead and impeach the testimony of the 9/11 eyewitnesses, if you can. The inference you want your readers to draw---cynically, yes, and dishonestly---is that the testimony of 9/11 witnesses is wholly discreditable. Go ahead. Impeach substantively any of the testimony of the 9-11 eyewitnesses that, for example, they heard explosions in the buildings after the impacts but before the onset of collapse. Just for once, discuss the issues of this thread substantively.
Not to mention the videos of the event at the nearby hotel and gas station, seized by the FBI almost immediately after the Pentagon was hit. What was on those videos? Or like so much of the evidence from Waco, TWA 800, WTC..., have those cassettes been conveniently "lost"?
I recall there being a survivor but not his name. Re my #84.. In follow up questionaire to the students, asking for recall, the information provided became even worse. The option on many questions contained the answer.."I do not know"...That option was rarely used as the "witnesses" wanted to provide an answer.
In follow up questionaire to the students, asking for recall, the information provided became even worse. The option on many questions contained the answer.."I do not know"...That option was rarely used as the "witnesses" wanted to provide an answer. Give us a link to this "study." I want to see if it can be "impeached."
A couple of eyewittness being wrong or "off" is one thing, but not 100's and 100's. There is so much testimony from the NYC area, then the Pentagon area, then the PA site. When that many are interviewed, and the basic story stays the same, except for a few differences, it is very damning and credible. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
I understand where you are trying to come from. Starwind is very similiar in approach. I know the need to be objective and critical. More Americans need to be that of the official story, because it is completely full of holes. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Here is another damning point. When the few eyewittnesses were brought in front of the 911 Commission, it wasn't public, their testimony wasn't released or used, and they all were made to feel as if THEY were on trial. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
There have been so many people gagged and threatened. Pilots, air traffic controllers, FAA employees, FBI/CIA/DIA agents, State Dept employees, firemen/policemen, the list is large. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
And I can see why now too: as people who actually observed the events of 9/11 as they unfolded, their testimony is inherently unreliable and likely to mislead the public. I hear there're studies that show this... [/sarcasm]
I know.. interesting description isnt it? Puffs of smoke.. well looking at the video of course it looks rather small but in scale they were huge.. explosions..
This is off topic, but I just caught O'Rilleys' opening comment about the internet, news, information and blogs. Thats what Bill was crying about. Fox and other news outlets can't compete with the instant transfer of news/info. What he really is mad about, is the news/gov/corp can't spin the story the way they want. Same with 911. The perps/globalists forgot about the internet, and how powerful of a tool of info it is. They are learning though. Look at the liquid bombers. This has been very tight lipped. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Hot off the presses. I've seen new footage/photos of WTC 7, which were taken, it seems right after the north tower came down. It confirms what I've thought and posted here, Under the chaos of the dust cloud, there are at least, a half a dozen explosion/blasts seen thoughout the floors of WTC 7. It was supposed to fall under the cover of the north tower, but something went wrong. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Do you have the link? I've not been online much lately
Yes, but believe me, it came out within days of the supposedly "imminent" and "catastrophic" terrorist attack that 1) the suspects didn't even have passports, let alone tickets; and 2) it was highly improbable that the suspects would be able to blow up even one plane with the liquids they were supposedly going to use, let alone ten: A chemist involved in that part of the inquiry, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was sworn to confidentiality, said HMTD, which can be prepared by combining hydrogen peroxide with other chemicals, “in theory is dangerous,” but whether the suspects “had the brights to pull it off remains to be seen.” While officials and experts familiar with the case say the investigation points to a serious and determined group of plotters, they add that questions about the immediacy and difficulty of the suspected bombing plot cast doubt on the accuracy of some of the public statements made at the time. “In retrospect,’’ said Michael A. Sheehan, the former deputy commissioner of counterterrorism in the New York Police Department, “there may have been too much hyperventilating going on.” ----"Details Emerge in British Terror Case" All of this was caught by internet bloggers and commentators weeks before the Times story I quoted above.
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Thanks..!
Censorship by omission, this is what we’re up against. And the really brilliant part of their strategy is once a whistleblower gets the government brush off, they’re forced to take their case to the net and alternative radio, thus providing more ammunition for the official rendition. The enemy we face knows how to manipulate the sheeple.
The same can be said about the "Pancake Theory". NIST has totally back away from this now. The internet pressure on this absurd explanation was relentless. Just think of all the books, programs and government sites that kept this mantra up. I like to use a phrase that Arete uses. I call it the "Bang Your Dead" theory. The feds put out some propaganda, everyone jumps on it, discredits it, and "Bang Your Dead." Next! Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Right again, Mark! Here's a quote from the new FAQ page the government has put up: NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively [!!!!] that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon. *SIGH!* It must be all so confusing for a paid government shill to deal with! Better to say something like, "The government version is out there---go ahead and disprove it." [/sarcasm]
Peetie... Off subject... For whatever reason, you seem to an angry, confrontational person, rather than one that is here for polite and civil discussion. In my short time at 4um, you have been the lone unpleasant poster, showing a great lack of proper social behavior. If I or my postings in any way for some reason cause you to become personal, perhaps it would be best to ignore them. Cyni...
But then if there is no pancaking, how can they explain the "puffs of dust", because the explanation was the floors compressed and blew out certain windows. The whole NIST fabrication is preposterious. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
That is precisely who has pounded the nails into the coffin door of the Republic and who will pound, to the hysterical screams and cheers of most Americans, the last nail.
Thank you for sharing your snap judgment of me. Now, ignoring the supposedly "personal" portions of my posts, would you mind answering the many substantive questions I've posed you which you've repeatedly ignored? You never get irritated when someone refuses to answer your questions?
In NISTs own live scale floor model reports, they could not duplicate this sagging of the floors and pulling of the outer girders. Then in the NIST report they also state that the inward bowing accompanied the collapse, not initiated it. The whole report is full of contradictions. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Certain windows at regularly sequenced intervals at repeated locations on a vertical plumb line going down the towers which often "blew out" many, many floors down from the zone of total destruction as the towers collapsed. Who knew that "pancakes" could be so fastidious, and yet so capricious? :P
www.infowars.com
And why the hyperlink failed to work - I've no clue... Sorry.
Honestly, some of the best research and talk is being done at the Loose Change Forums. Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Mark Yes - honest discussions are all over the web. Wake up and find the truth, numbskulls.
Actually it is very surprising that a former top secret document like that would ever be declassified considering its content. The government has made it impossible for us to trust them even if they are telling the truth occasionally with all of their wanton lies. Maybe this document was never truly suppose to be declassified and is a warning from some honest person in our government about the real state of our union. But then again maybe releasing this document is all part of the master plan of the elite to identify those that give a damn about the truth and justice and eliminate them before they can cause them too many problems. Who knows? They have made it impossible for us to trust anything they say or do.
God is always good! Good site! Alex is a showman, but no more than say, Joe Farah, and he's a lot more honest and principled. Alex isn't shilling for the Feds or Israel.
AJ's one of the good guys.
I know I was rather amazed when I first read it.. it was declassified in April of 01. About the master plan.. I guess I wont mention the documents re the internment camps.. I thought that was a load of conspiracy nutcase tripe.. uh well ..guess what?
#2. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
#3. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
The Bible quite correctly forbids the belief in conspiracies, since believers ascribe to "perpertrators" qualities only allowed to God -- omnipotence and omniscience.
and the people plot in vain?
The Kings of the Earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and his Annointed One."
#4. To: Zipporah (#2)
Hmm not so sure I agree with you...
#5. To: Arator (#4)
#6. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
36% of Americans consider it "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves
#7. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
Imploded buildings, which always have explosives at the bottom, always fall from the bottom up. The WTC fell from the top down, where the planes hit. I've seen several buildings imploded in real life, and they always went from the bottom up.
#8. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
I've seen several buildings imploded in real life, and they always went from the bottom up
1 hr 44 min 40 sec - Jan 9, 2006
http://www.911eyewitness.com
#9. To: It Is A Republic (#6)
36% - Thats about the percent of people who can not name any of their elected officials or identify pictures of National leaders.
#10. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
Imploded buildings, which always have explosives at the bottom, always fall from the bottom up.
#11. To: ..., It Is A Republic (#9)
#12. To: ... (#9)
#13. To: robin (#11)
It's also about the percentage that started the Amercan Revolution in 1776.
#14. To: It Is A Republic (#13)
#15. To: It Is A Republic (#12)
#16. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
#17. To: christine, ... (#16)
#18. To: Zipporah (#0)
(Edited)
People, the feds just aren't that slick. Nobody is.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#19. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
(Edited)
"For Jehovah spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying, Say ye not, A conspiracy, concerning all whereof this people shall say, A conspiracy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be in dread thereof. Jehovah of hosts, him shall ye sanctify; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread." (Isaiah 8:11–13).
#20. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
#21. To: Zipporah, arator (#2)
he bible is filled with conspiracies.. plots against kings etc.. ma
#22. To: RickyJ (#18)
In his new exposé of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS.
#23. To: RickyJ (#18)
#24. To: ... (#15)
#25. To: It Is A Republic (#24)
notice the chart on left near bottom of article
#26. To: Jethro Tull (#20)
why is 911 a stretch?
#27. To: ... (#25)
#28. To: Burkeman1 (#27)
It is a control mechanism for the marginally educated
#29. To: It Is A Republic (#13)
Historians now believe that forty percent of Americans were patriots; twenty percent were Loyalists, who supported the British; and forty percent were neutral, preferring to be left alone during the hostilities.
#30. To: Burkeman1 (#27)
In this day and age College education is NOT an indicator of intelligence or critical thinking.
#31. To: Burkeman1 (#27)
In this day and age College education is NOT an indicator of intelligence or critical thinking. A college education today is little more than an obscenely expensive middle class license certificate. It is a control mechanism for the marginally educated and it puts people in debt almost immediately (many to the de facto government owned Fannie Mae) and starts them down the path of living a life of fear and debt from one white collar paper pushing service sector pay check to the next.
#32. To: robin (#31)
No kidding.
#33. To: ... (#32)
#34. To: ... (#30)
#35. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
The Bible quite correctly forbids the belief in conspiracies, since believers ascribe to "perpertrators" qualities only allowed to God -- omnipotence and omniscience.
#36. To: Cynicom (#26)
#37. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
Imploded buildings, which always have explosives at the bottom, always fall from the bottom up. The WTC fell from the top down, where the planes hit. I've seen several buildings imploded in real life, and they always went from the bottom up.
#38. To: ..., robin (#32)
WRT to the work ethic, this is sometimes the company's fault. The recent grads have put a lot into getting where they are and they suddenly realize that they have been herded into a relatively dead end job.
pedegree, and have pretty much come to terms with it. I have no desire to be one of those backstabbing fuckers, I make them want to be MY friend!
#39. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#37)
what makes you so sure there were no charges detonated at the foundation of the towers immediately before or during the collapse sequences?
#40. To: christine (#39)
there were. many many eyewitnesses...william rodriquez..multiple firemen..and more. so much evidence !!!
#41. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
#42. To: Burkeman1 (#34)
If I could go back in time right before college and someone gave me the choice of going to college or giving me 100 grand right then and there tax free- I would take the 100 grand and try to do something with it.
#43. To: Zipporah (#0)
Puffs of dust?
#44. To: It Is A Republic (#7)
#45. To: Kamala (#44)
(Edited)
WTC 1&2 were not a controlled demolition. It was a top down controlled explosion. Talc like pulverized concrete and steel girders were thrown up to 600 feet away.
#46. To: Jethro Tull (#36)
the less likely the need for "little people."
#47. To: Cynicom, Jethro Tull (#46)
Conspiracy at the top by plotters with shared self interest is one thing.
#48. To: Cynicom (#46)
#49. To: Jethro Tull (#48)
#50. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#47)
Think about that one.
#51. To: Jethro Tull (#48)
There are things I simply can’t answer.
#52. To: Cynicom (#50)
I am sure most people have already given it a lot of thought.
#53. To: Cynicom, robin (#51)
#54. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#52)
Oh, really? So the folks in the 9/11 Truth Movement are just engaged in self-promotion? Wow, you can take Cynicom out of "Free Republic," but you can't take "Free Republic" out of Cynicom, now can you?
#55. To: Jethro Tull (#53)
such a scheme isn’t outside the realm of some in government and the winner in all this is the group of the usual suspects.
#56. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
#57. To: Cynicom (#54)
Resorting to personal attacks is meaningless.
#58. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#57)
How did WTC 7 collapse? Just answer that question. Substantive enough for you?
#59. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#56)
#60. To: Cynicom (#58)
How did WTC 7 collapse? Just answer that question. Substantive enough for you?
#61. To: Cynicom (#58)
#62. To: Kamala (#59)
YT always pulls this stunt. Makes 1 post and never follows up.
#63. To: Kamala (#61)
Would you support a real independent citizens grand jury/commission on 911?
#64. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#60)
#65. To: Cynicom (#63)
#66. To: YertleTurtle (#1)
The Bible quite correctly forbids the belief in conspiracies, since believers ascribe to "perpertrators" qualities only allowed to God -- omnipotence and omniscience.
#67. To: Buzzard (#66)
#68. To: Zipporah (#0)
#69. To: Kamala (#65)
Fair enough.
#70. To: Cynicom (#63)
The problem would be keeping the "government" out of the investigation. In other words, let the chickens out and lock the Fox in the henhouse.
#71. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#68)
#72. To: Cynicom (#69)
It is up to the individual to use rational thinking on their own as to what is possible and what is impossible.
#73. To: Kamala (#71)
#74. To: Cynicom (#69)
#75. To: Kamala (#74)
Define, off the wall.
#76. To: Kamala (#71)
This is impossible since the only KNOWN video of the first impact is by the Naudet bros.
#77. To: Kamala, Itisa1mosttoolate (#71)
Bush made this remark a couple times.
#78. To: robin (#77)
#79. To: Cynicom (#75)
#80. To: Kamala (#79)
#81. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#76)
#82. To: robin (#77)
#83. To: robin (#80)
#84. To: Kamala (#83)
but there are too many eyewittness reports.
#85. To: Kamala (#81)
Here is another.
#86. To: Cynicom (#84)
#87. To: Cynicom (#84)
My indoctrination to "eye witness accounts" goes way back many years ago.
#88. To: robin (#80)
The dog that didn't bark at the Pentagon is, where is the state-of-the-art video? They can't claim that all the cameras were malfunctioning
#89. To: Jethro Tull (#86)
the eyewitness (Rodriquez) has a survivor
#90. To: Cynicom (#89)
Re my #84..
#91. To: Cynicom (#84)
#92. To: Cynicom (#89)
#93. To: Jethro Tull (#86)
#94. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#90)
#95. To: Kamala (#94)
There have been so many people gagged and threatened. Pilots, air traffic controllers, FAA employees, FBI/CIA/DIA agents, State Dept employees, firemen/policemen, the list is large.
#96. To: Kamala (#43)
#97. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#95)
inherently unreliable and likely to mislead the public.
#98. To: Zipporah (#96)
#99. To: Kamala (#98)
#100. To: Kamala (#97)
The perps/globalists forgot about the internet, and how powerful of a tool of info it is. They are learning though. Look at the liquid bombers. This has been very tight lipped.
#101. To: Zipporah (#99)
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12277
#102. To: Kamala (#101)
#103. To: Kamala (#93)
Here is another damning point. When the few eyewittnesses were brought in front of the 911 Commission, it wasn't public, their testimony wasn't released or used, and they all were made to feel as if THEY were on trial.
#104. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#100)
#105. To: Kamala (#104)
The same can be said about the "Pancake Theory". NIST has totally back away from this now. The internet pressure on this absurd explanation was relentless. Just think of all the books, programs and government sites that kept this mantra up.
#106. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#90)
Give us a link to this "study." I want to see if it can be "impeached."
#107. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#105)
#108. To: Kamala (#107)
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
#109. To: Cynicom (#106)
For whatever reason, you seem to an angry, confrontational person, rather than one that is here for polite and civil discussion. In my short time at 4um, you have been the lone unpleasant poster, showing a great lack of proper social behavior.
#110. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#105)
#111. To: Kamala (#107)
But then if there is no pancaking, how can they explain the "puffs of dust", because the explanation was the floors compressed and blew out certain windows.
#112. To: Peetie Wheatstraw, Cynicom, all (#105)
Read everything here and then comment _
#113. To: All (#112)
#114. To: lodwick (#113)
#115. To: Kamala (#114)
Honestly, some of the best research and talk is being done at the Loose Change Forums.
#116. To: Zipporah (#22)
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#117. To: lodwick (#112)
http://www.infowars.com
#118. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#117)
Alex is a showman, but no more than say, Joe Farah, and he's a lot more honest and principled. Alex isn't shilling for the Feds or Israel.
#119. To: RickyJ (#116)
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest