4um: What Hit the Pentagon?

Where the Pentagon was struck on 9/11/01 is indisputable and is strong circumstantial evidence that the attack was an inside job.

However, what hit it has remained controversial in some circles, given the refusal of authorities to produce definitive evidence to support the official story that American Airlines Flight 77 was the attack plane. With security camera video from nearby businesses having been seized minutes after the attack, and only five selected video frames released by the military, we are left with seemingly contradictory physical and eyewitness evidence.

Many eyewitnesses accounts describe a 757-like jetliner approach and collide with the Pentagon.

Photographs of the impact damage seem difficult to reconcile with the collision of a 757, since they show neither the imprint of such a plane on the facade nor large recognizable pieces of aircraft. These apparent contradictions stem partly from misconceptions about the physics of plane crashes. The contradictions vanish when one considers possible manipulations of a 757 crash, such as the destruction of portions of the plane just before impact. However, theories that nothing like a 757 crashed into the Pentagon have been so effectively popularized that mainstream media attacks on 9/11 skeptics frequently identify them as disputing only one aspect of the official story: that Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon.

The Missile and/or Global Hawk Theories Based on interpretations of the physical evidence -- in many cases based on fallacies -- several researchers have proposed theories that the damage to the Pentagon was caused by a missile, and/or a small lightweight remote-controlled plane, such as a Global Hawk. Variants of this theory became popular among skeptics of the official Flight 77 crash story in early 2002, despite their disregard for the eyewitness evidence that the plane seen approaching the Pentagon was a large twin-engine jetliner.

Much of the support for the missile and/or Global Hawk theories is drawn from the five frames of Pentagon video, despite their suspect source and signs of forgery.

A second theory, also advanced in 2002, was researcher Dick Eastman's small plane theory (or two-plane theory). It holds that a Boeing 757 did indeed swoop down toward the west block of the Pentagon, but disappeared into a blinding pyrotechnic display, making it appear that it had crashed into the building, while in fact it had cleared the facade, overflown the Pentagon, and then banked sharply to land at Reagan National Airport, whose runways are only about two miles away from the Pentagon. As the jetliner was disappearing into the fireball, a small attack jet, such as an F-16, approached from a different trajectory and crashed into the wall, producing, in combination with a missile, the damage to the facade and interior.

This theory has the advantage over other no-757-crash theories that it is consistent with the many credible eyewitness reports of a jetliner. However, it neither explains the eyewitness statements that the plane collided with the building, nor the lack of a single eyewitness statement supporting the idea that a 757 overflew the Pentagon and then landed at the nearby National airport. Also, the theory raises questions about the fate of the passengers of Flight 77.

The 757 overflight theory is perhaps the weakest part of the two-plane theory. The Pentagon is surrounded by highways, and by densely populated areas such as Pentagon City to the south. Wouldn't a 757 overflying the Pentagon in a direction perpendicular to normal air traffic have been witnessed and reported by numerous individuals?

According to the above theories, no 757 crashed at the Pentagon on 9/11/01, despite the abundance of eyewitness reports of a large jetliner crashing. Some of these theories suggest that events were engineered to fool people into believing that Flight 77 had crashed. Some include elaborate stage-magic tricks, such as a drone painted like an American Airlines plane, and the use of motors and cables to pull down lamp poles.

Many no-757-crash theorists want us to believe that the attack was engineered to trick eyewitnesses into thinking a much smaller attack plane was a jetliner. But we can equally imagine that the attack was engineered to make the site of a 757 crash look to many observers like that of something else.

French researcher Eric Bart proposed that the airliner was shredded by shape charges both before and after it entered the building. His theory accounts for the eyewitness near-consensus in favor of a 757-type jetliner crashing, for details in eyewitness statements not consistent with a simple crash, and for the pattern of damage to the Pentagon not explained by other theories.

The shaped charges were ignited before the nose touched the wall. That's why some witnesses reported signs of an early impact, before the plane touched the wall :

"I heard a sonic boom and then the impact" Joel Sucherman Other witnesses understood that the plane hit the ground before the wall :

"It didn't appear to crash into the building, most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward " Donald "Tim" Timmerman

"The nose of the plane curled upwards and crumpled before exploding into a massive fireball" Vin Narayan

But there was no mark of the plane on the ground. Other witnesses reported an impact on the building :

"The large aircraft struck the outermost corridor (E-ring) of the five-ring building at ground level (the second floor)"

"The aircraft went in between the second and third floors." Lincoln Leibner Why did some witnesses thought [sic] that the plane hit the ground before the wall ? I see two reasons. First, the explosion of the charges created white flashes around the fuselage that seemed an early contact with the ground. Second, shaped charges in a plane have a recoil effect like powder in guns.

Their explosions should have push [sic] back the fuselage and slow it down, giving the impression that it hit something. It could also make the wings detached [sic] and fly forward because, unlike the fuselage, they were not slowed down, "I saw the wings fly forward".

The Penny Elgas statement : "At the point where the fuselage hit the wall, it seemed to simply melt into the building. I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact with the wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at the point of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later realized that it was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete. The churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and simultaneously wrapped down both the right and left sides of the fuselage to the underside, where the coiling rings crossed over each other and then coiled back up to the top. Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring."

First I believe Penny Elgas. Under adrenaline things go definetly slower. The report she gave is so unexpected that I don't think she made it up. It's just a pure factual report.

The interpretation she gave is false. : "the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete". The smoke moves are too perfect.

My speculation : The "churning smoke" is the white flash of inside charges. Penny Elgas saw the white flashes of these charges exploding in two overlapped and opposite helices.

There was not a single large shaped charge in the plane. I did not see any large shaped charge on the web. The best anti-bunker weapon (BLU-113) is only 1.2 foot large (diameter). Instead, there were many shaped charges (one feet diameter) inside the plane. Roughly, a one foot diameter will make a one foot hole. These charges were arranged in circle inside the fuselage and along the fuselage. Thus it was possible to make a large hit on the wall with small shaped charges. These charges were not fired all at the same time (probably to be more silent or for having a "hammering" effect on concrete). So what is the best sequence for igniting all theses charges ?

Maybe things are simpler then I first thought. All the plane (fuselage and wings) is laid on a rigid structure. This means that the bottom of the fuselage is strong and the top is fragile. So, when a charge explode near the bottom of the fuselage, it destroys the stiffness of it.

I think that the charges where put in two overlapped and opposite helices (clockwise and counter clockwise). The explosion started at the top front of the fuselage, continued downward and backward on each side, joined at the bottom and continued upward and backward, and so on ..., as Penny saw.

When explosions occure at the bottom, the plane fuselage stiffness is damaged. Thus, next charges to explode are less strongly tied to the fuselage. The further they are from the bottom, the more difficult it is to tie them strongly to the fuselage. Thus, next charges have to be attached close to the bottom. That's why I think it continued upward (and backward) on each side of the fuselage, because next charges can't be mechanically attached far form the bottom.

"Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring." The glowing fire is the fireball itself that comes after the white flash.

Bart theorizes only about the use of shaped charges in the destruction of the plane. However, it is possible to imagine other types of weapons may have produced a similar result. If these weapons were ground-based rather than installed in the plane, it would be easier to imagine that the event involved Flight 77, since the perpetrators would not have required physical access to the plane to prepare the attack.

The Remote-Controlled 757 Theory The simplest theory that answers questions about the piloting skill required by the approach maneuver and the location of the strike is the remote-controlled 757 theory, in which an American Airlines 757, perhaps Flight 77, is flown by remote control into the Pentagon. The engineered crash theory is a subset of the remote-controlled 757 theory.

Its added element of explosives or other weapons destroying portions of the aircraft prior to impact helps to reconcile the crash of a 757 with the crash impact damage shown in photographs, but this element is consistently targeted by critics defending no-757-crash theories. Researcher Mark Robinowitz, webmaster of oilempire.us, has suggested that speculation about crash engineering, like that about exactly what hit the Pentagon, has served as a distraction from the provable fact of where the building was hit and its implications. On The Pentagon attack: How the 'no plane' theories are used to discredit 9/11 skepticism and distract from proven evidence of complicity he provides evidence that the the no-757-crash theories may be rooted in a false-flag psy-op to discredit skepticism of the official story.

Dick Eastman showed that the one piece of debris on the Pentagon lawn large enough to stand up fit the forward right side of an American Airlines' 757-200. The relative isolation of this piece, and it's position relative to the plane's path, suggests that it may have been moved. There are a number of possible reasons that it could have been moved. Subscribe to *9-11*

I have no answers, leave that to the experts here. I am just one that asks questions of doubters.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

Now watch this one and get an idea what would have happened to the guy 6 feet away from a jet engine at full throttle. The video you showed, while amazing, was not anywhere close to full throttle.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

I started in the aviation industy in 1950, military, Federal, Martin Aircraft, jack of all trades. Saw a lot, expert at nothing but I do ask questions.

Stand in front of a fan, then in rear, do you feel the most air passing in front or in the rear????

And I think you have no conception of the vortex created by a jumbo jet flying at a reported speed of 500+ mph.

Just as a small example of the air currents of a passing object, I can tell you of something I witnessed in my days working on the highways.

We were working in the right lane of a 55 mph zone and the foreman was standing on the lane line with his back to the traffic lane on a four lane divided highway.

A tractor trailer came over the hill and was bearing down on us and the foreman stood in the same place. As the truck passed him he was nearly sucked under the tralier by the wind vortex created by the truck. He had to fight with all his strength to stay on his feet.

And that is only a close call since I know of stories where people have been sucked under trucks passing them on the highway, including state troopers.

With a jet travelling at the speeds suggested, it is easy to spot the BS in that story in the military mag.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

Stand in front of a fan, then in rear, do you feel the most air passing in front or in the rear????

Want to try your luck standing on the lane line with 75 mph traffic whizzing by? ;0)

I remember watching NYPD motorcycle cops riding between two lanes of moving traffic.

What does it take to throw some Jet-A on some parts from the scrap yard? For that matter, where do you get the business of "residue" from, in the first place?

Among other obstructions, there was originally a trailer immediately in front of the Pentagon wall (and a big tree). The photos show the trailer remains in the same spot - not pushed into the Pentagon wall.

The burning diesel fuel accounts for the only thick black smoke; nothing else to remotely suggest hydrocarbon fuel. Again, the diesel tank is burning from the wrong side!

A 300 knot 757 would generate an incredible amount of air pressure, in the form of wake turbulence from the wing and engine pod. The jet blast would be that much more - add the temperature and the noise.

The "Ground Effect" (cushion) would not allow the aircraft to descend below 50 feet, due to the pressure buildup under the wing. In order to penetrate through the 'ground effect,' the nose would have to dig a trench, into the building.

A message that holds strong meaning regardless of the differences in opinion many people have concerning what happened that day.

Vicky Yancey was on that plane that is supposed to have hit he Pentagon. She posted on Time.com/Politics and suddenly that day a frequent and well liked poster in our virtual community just vanished.

If that plane didn't hit the Pentagon I want to know what happed to it and where it and the people on it are.

Most sane people already know where the people are (buried) and the plane (remains stored).

"....Is is just a coincidence that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld announced that the Pentagon lost $2.3 trillion of the taxpayer's dollars the day before the attacks and that the section of the Pentagon that got hit housed a lot of accountants, bookkeepers and budget analysts and was also the end of the fiscal year and important budget information was in the damaged area?

 "On Sept. 10, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld declared war. Not on foreign terrorists, "the adversary's closer to home. It's the Pentagon bureaucracy," he said.

"In fact, it could be said it's a matter of life and death," he said. Rumsfeld promised change but the next day – Sept. 11-- the world changed and in the rush to fund the war on terrorism, the war on waste seems to have been forgotten. Just last week President Bush announced, "my 2003 budget calls for more than $48 billion in new defense spending."

More money for the Pentagon, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, while its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends.

"According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted.

$2.3 trillion — that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America." -CBS (01/29/02)

Rumsfeld: "According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions." - DoD (09/10/01)

"One Army office in the Pentagon lost 34 of its 65 employees in the attack. Most of those killed in the office, called Resource Services Washington, were civilian accountants, bookkeepers and budget analysts. They were at their desks when American Airlines Flight 77 struck." - South Coast Today/Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (12/20/01)

"The plane had gone in right where she was located as part of the budget analyst office. The guys began working themselves to death to clear this huge area to try and find her under the debris."

He said his mother-in-law had died in the crash. "We were only partially successful [in finding the body]. It's one of things I'm still dealing with," he admitted." -Connection Newspapers (09/05/02)

"The impact area included both the Navy operations center and the office complex of the National Guard and Army Reserve. It was also the end of the fiscal year and important budget information was in the damaged area." - Arlington County After-Action Report

"Lt. Col. Marilyn Wills has staff meetings every other Tuesday morning. A deputy chief of staff in the Army’s personnel division, Wills, 40, had a particularly full agenda for the Sept. 11 meeting. The House and Senate Armed Services Committees were working on the 2002 budget, and her department was responsible for gathering facts and figures to pass on to congressional number crunchers. She got to her desk in office 477 on the second floor of the Pentagon’s E-Ring at about 7:30 a.m., went through her voice-mail messages and e-mails, and spent an hour prepping for the meeting with a colleague. As she was nearing the end of her presentation about the budget bills and the upcoming Association of the U.S. Army Conference, the room shook, and there was a thunderous boom." -MSNBC (09/28/03).........."

Compare the list of those killed in the pentagon, numbers crunchers, and those involved in the "War Games" being conducted [at the link http://killtown.91 1review.org/flight77/fatalities.html - thanks, Eoghan?], with those killed on the plane:

".....The following list of passengers was gathered from many sources posted on the Internet:

Dong Lee, Ruben Ornedo, and Chad Keller all worked for Boeing. Lee also worked for the NSA. Stanley Hall, "the dean of electronic warfare," (along with Peter Gay, David Kolvacin, and Kenneth Waldie on other flights), worked for Raytheon.

William Caswell was a particle physicist who worked for the Navy. His job was so classified that his family had no clue as to what he did and did not know why he was flying to California.

Charles Droz, LCDR USN Ret, was a software developer for EM solutions (manufacturer of Wide Area Networks).

Robert Penniger worked for BAE Systems, ("an industry leader in flight control systems"), whose Board is comprised of many from the intelligence community. BAE has apparently removed their Board of Directors page, but it list a "who's who" of high level connections to the CIA, DARPA, and NSA. (See the appendix for a list of outside directors of BAE Systems that were not on Flight 77.)

Robert Ploger and his wife were added "late" to the original CNN passenger list. He is the son of Major General Robert R Ploger USA, Ret, another "flag" link. The other "late" addition was Sandra Teague, a physical therapist at Georgetown University Hospital.

John Sammartino and Leonard Taylor worked at Xontech (missile defense), another company connected to the intelligence community, also with ties to Boeing.

Vicki Yancey worked for Vreedenberg Corp, yet another company connected to the intelligence community. Her father describes her death as a "planned murder." Her widower works for Northrup-Grumman.

Mary Jane Booth was in a position to know what was going on at Dulles Airport as secretary for American Airlines general manager.

John Yamnicky, 71, Capt USN Ret, was a defense contractor for Veridian who had done a number of "black ops," according to his son.

The physicians, lawyers, biotech representatives, and "human interest" victims who were aboard, could also provide important clues, but in the interest of space, we will save them for future consideration.

Many readers recall a particular Fox Television TV show called "The Lone Gunmen" which was aired on March 2, 2001 [Download Episode]. In the show, the bad guys control a passenger airplane by remote control with intentions of flying it into the World Trade Center. The villains were a Pentagon insider faction; the motive to inflame the public and thereby legitimate new military budgets and operations. Life indeed imitates art.

It has been reported that some people were warned not to fly that day. One was reported to be Mayor Willie Brown of San Francisco. Another was author Salman Rushdie. The person on that flight MOST likely to be warned was Robert Speisman. He was an executive at Lazare Kaplan, a diamond merchant, and son in law of Maurice Templesman. Templesman was Jackie Kennedy's long time lover and is highly connected according to Time Magazine. Time also reported about about his "special access" to the National Security Council. He has also "stepped out" with Madeleine Albright.

I attempted on three occasions to obtain a final passenger list from American Airlines. They refuse to give a list and in fact won't even verify that they gave the first list to CNN. Since the list is in the public domain, I find it curious that they would not take ownership nor provide a current, "correct" list.

Would it even be necessary to "lure" all expendables onto the designated death flights? Why not just grab those you want to get rid of and then slip them into the pile later? Have you seen an interview with the check-in personnel for the flights who can tell us who actually got on any of these flights? Not a chance. In fairness, Washington, D.C. and it's suburbs draw a great number of contractors for the military and intelligence communities in their normal course of business. It may be mere coincidence that these passengers were all on the same flight; however; the government refuses to release information which would relieve our concerns.

Mr. Kerr served in the U.S. Intelligence community for 32 years - from September 1960 until March 1992. He started as a country analyst in the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and ended his career as the senior professional intelligence officer in the U.S. government serving as Deputy Director of Central Intelligence.

Dr. William Schneider, Jr. former Under Secretary State for Security, Science and Technology

Prior to serving on the board, Dr. Schneider was formerly Under Secretary of State for Security Assistance, Science and Technology (1982-1986). He served as Associate Director for National Security and International Affairs at the Office of Management and Budget (198l-2) prior to being nominated as Under Secretary by the President.

Dr. Cooper is currently President, CEO, Director and co-founder of Atlantic Aerospace Electronics Corporation. From 1981 to 1985, Dr. Cooper was Assistant Secretary of Defense for Research and Technology and simultaneously held the position of Director for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). As Assistant Secretary, he was principal advisor to the Secretary of Defense on the allocation of Department resources to research, exploratory development and advanced development projects.

Gen. Zinni was formerly Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Central Command. While in the Marine Corps he held numerous command and staff assignments that include platoon, company, battalion, regimental, Marine expeditionary unit, and Marine expeditionary force command. His staff assignments included service on battalion, regimental, division, base, and service staffs in operations, training, special operations, counterterrorism, and manpower billets. Gen. Zinni most recently served as the United States Special Envoy to the Middle East.

General Kenneth A. Minihan (Ret) former Director National Security Agency; Central Security Service

Lt. Gen Minihan served more than thirty-three years of active commissioned service to the nation before retiring from the U.S. Air Force in 1999. On his final tour of duty, he served as the 14th Director of the National Security Agency/Central Security Service, a combat support agency of the Department of Defense with military and civilian personnel stationed worldwide. As Director, he was the senior uniformed intelligence officer in the Department of Defense. He also served as the Director of The Defense Intelligence Agency.

Mr. Prestel served as Deputy Director of the National Security Agency (NSA) from 1990 - . He was the senior civilian presiding over this Defense Agency whose principal missions are the production of foreign Signals Intelligence and the protection of official U.S. Government communications and information systems....."

Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77 [see also STILL NO ARABS ON FLIGHT 77 sierratimes]

as for the plane, I think I read it was parted out or sold for scrap, like the tower. If the plane landed at Jay Rocky's Yeager, it wouldn't be hard to do. Saw Rocky on TV yesterday, backtracking on the war. See David Rockefeller quote re right crisis needed:

"Quote: We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we [ the CFR ] need is the right major crisis and the nation[s] will accept the New World Order. End Quote. David Rockefeller: Founder and Honorary Chairman, Council of the Americas; Chairman, Americas Society; Founder, Forum of the Americas; Chairman, Emeritus, Council on Foreign Relations [CFR]; Founder and Honorary Chairman, Trilateral Commission [TC]; Chairman, The Bilderbergs. [ How does the 11 Sept 2001 attack upon our country figure into this? CLMsr ]"

I keep telling people about this "ground effect" but they have no clue. That is why the story in the military mag is a load of BS.

Pentagon Loses Millions

CBS Evening News with Dan Rather

01-29-2002

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DAN RATHER, CBS ANCHOR: The billions lost by once high-flying and politically powerfully connected businesses like Enron and Global Crossing have drawn a great deal of attention, and rightly so.

But in tonight`s "Eye on America," CBS`s Vince Gonzales reports, all too often, far less attention is paid to far greater losses when the dollars come from taxpayers` pockets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) VINCE GONZALES, CBS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the Pentagon, the day before 9/11, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld declared war. Not on foreign terrorists.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The adversary`s closer to home.

It`s the Pentagon bureaucracy.

GONZALES: He said money wasted by the military poses a serious threat.

RUMSFELD: In fact, it could be said that it`s a matter of life and death.

GONZALES: Rumsfeld promised change. But the next day, the world changed. And in the rush to fund the war on terrorism, the war on waste seems to have been forgotten.

BUSH: My `03 budget calls for more than $48 billion in new defense spending.

GONZALES: More money for the Pentagon, when its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it already spends.

RUMSFELD: According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions.

GONZALES: $2.3 trillion with a "t." That`s $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America. To understand how the Pentagon can lose track of trillions, consider the case of one military accountant who tried to find out what happened to a mere $300 million.

JIM MINNERY, DEFENSE FINANCE & ACCOUNTING SERVICE: We know it`s gone, but we don`t know what they spent it on.

GONZALES: Jim Minnery, a former Marine turned whistle-blower, is risking his job by speaking out for the first time about the millions he noticed were missing from one defense agency`s balance sheets. Minnery tried to follow the money trail, even crisscrossing the country looking for records.

MINNERY: The director looked at me and says, "Why do you care about this stuff?" It took me aback, you know, my supervisor asking me why I care about doing a good job. So.

GONZALES: He was reassigned and says officials then covered up the problem by just writing it off.

MINNERY: They got to cover it up. That`s where the corruption comes in. They got to cover up the fact that they can`t do the job.

GONZALES: The Pentagon`s Inspector General partially substantiated several of Minnery`s allegations, but could not prove officials tried "to manipulate the financial statements." 20 years ago, Pentagon employee Franklin C. Spinney made headlines exposing what he calls the accounting games. He`s still there, and although he does not speak for the Pentagon, he believes the problem has gotten worse.

FRANKLIN SPINEY, DEPT. OF DEFENSE ANALYST: Those numbers are pie in the sky. The books are cooked routinely, year after year after year.

GONZALES: Retired Vice Admiral Jack Shanahan commanded the Navy`s second fleet the first time Donald Rumsfeld served as Defense Secretary.

JACK SHANAHAN, RETIRED VICE ADMIRAL, NAVY: With good financial oversight, we could find $48 billion in loose change in that building without having to hit the taxpayers.

GONZALES: In the 2.5 minutes since this report began, the Pentagon has spent nearly $2 million. And it may never know where 25 percent of those tax dollars went.

In Los Angeles, I`m Vince Gonzales for "Eye on America." (END VIDEOTAPE) END

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

If you're following one in your vehicle, it will actually pull you along while you're behind it.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Do you know where they're buried and who they are? I don't think so. It takes an extraordinary leap of faith to think that the perpetrators of this scheme (BushCheneyInc and their backers) are above the despicable heinous acts that created 911. Read the list above as to who exactly was offed that day.

After all the information presented on this thread alone, you can't be that naive to believe what you're writing and now you're beginning to arouse my suspicion that you are a shill.

Look, Abe.....business is such a simple thing. When things go shitty, burn the building and collect the insurance money. This tactic is sometime called Jewish Lightening, when it occurs in the middle of the night :)

I have not characterized you in any demeaning way and try to avoid such as it contributes nothing in any discussion. Otherwise I read your posts and have found them interesting.

"It is the job of a disinfo artist to interfere with these evaluations... to at least make people think the links are weak or broken when, in truth, they are not... or to propose alternative solutions leading away from the truth. Often, by simply impeding and slowing down the process through disinformation tactics, a level of victory is assured because apathy increases with time and rhetoric. "

#9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

Really?...Is that your way of having a discussion with other people in face to face social gatherings?

You refuse to discuss the evidence provided to counterbalance your mantra that the bodies were found, buried and there's no complicity or conspiracy.

You have accused people of twisted thinking or not being sane if they don't agree with your pronouncements and those of the BushCheneyInc administration.