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Title: Does God want you to be rich?
Source:
Time
URL Source: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/10/time.cover.tm/index.html
Published: Sep 11, 2006
Author: Time
Post Date: 2006-09-11 01:39:54 by Morgana le Fay
Keywords: None
Views: 434
Comments: 27
Editor's note: The following is a summary of this week's Time magazine cover story. http://(Time.comexternal link) -- In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of his disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his Cross." In support of this prediction, he contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," he asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" Generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian means being ready to sacrifice. But for a growing number of Christians, the question is better restated, "Why not gain the whole world plus my soul?" For several decades, a philosophy has been percolating in the 10 million-strong Pentecostal wing of Christianity that seems to turn the Gospels' passage on its head. Certainly, it allows, Christians should keep one eye on heaven. But the new good news is that God doesn't want us to wait. Known (or vilified) under a variety of names -- Word of Faith, Health and Wealth, Name It and Claim It, Prosperity Theology -- its emphasis is on God's promised generosity in this life. In a nutshell, it suggests that a God who loves you does not want you to be broke. Its signature verse could be John 10:10: "I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." In a Time poll, 17 percent of Christians surveyed said they considered themselves part of such a movement, while a full 61 percent believed that God wants people to be prosperous. "Prosperity" first blazed to public attention as the driveshaft in the moneymaking machine that was 1980s televangelism and faded from mainstream view with the Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart scandals. But now, after some key modifications (which have inspired some to redub it Prosperity Lite), it has not only recovered but is booming. Of the four biggest megachurches in the country, three -- Joel Osteen's Lakewood in Houston; T.D. Jakes' Potter's House in south Dallas; and Creflo Dollar's World Changers in Atlanta -- are Prosperity or Prosperity Lite pulpits (although Jakes' ministry has many more facets). While they don't exclusively teach that God's riches want to be in believers' wallets, it is a key part of their doctrine. And propelled by Osteen's 4 million-selling book, Your Best Life Now, the belief has swept beyond its Pentecostal base into more buttoned-down evangelical churches, and even into congregations in the more liberal Mainline. It is taught in hundreds of non-Pentecostal Bible studies. One Pennsylvania Lutheran pastor even made it the basis for a sermon series for Lent, when Christians usually meditate on why Jesus was having His Worst Life Then. The movement's renaissance has infuriated a number of prominent pastors, theologians and commentators. Fellow megapastor Rick Warren, whose book The Purpose Driven Life has outsold Osteen's by a ratio of 7 to 1, finds the very basis of Prosperity laughable. "This idea that God wants everybody to be wealthy?" he snorts. "There is a word for that: baloney. It's creating a false idol. You don't measure your self-worth by your net worth. I can show you millions of faithful followers of Christ who live in poverty. Why isn't everyone in the church a millionaire?" The brickbats -- both theological and practical (who really gets rich from this?) --come especially thick from Evangelicals like Warren. Evangelicalism is more prominent and influential than ever before. Yet the movement, which has never had a robust theology of money, finds an aggressive philosophy advancing within its ranks that many of its leaders regard as simplistic, possibly heretical and certainly embarrassing. Prosperity's defenders claim to be able to match their critics chapter and verse. They caution against broad-brushing a wide spectrum that ranges from pastors who crassly solicit sky's-the-limit financial offerings from their congregations to those whose services tend more toward God-fueled self-help. Advocates note Prosperity's racial diversity -- a welcome exception to the American norm -- and point out that some Prosperity churches engage in significant charity. And they see in it a happy corrective for Christians who are more used to being chastened for their sins than celebrated as God's children. "Who would want to get in on something where you're miserable, poor, broke and ugly and you just have to muddle through until you get to heaven?" asks Joyce Meyer, a popular television preacher and author often lumped in the Prosperity Lite camp. "I believe God wants to give us nice things." If nothing else, Meyer and other new-breed preachers broach a neglected topic that should really be a staple of Sunday messages: Does God want you to be rich? Click hereexternal link for the entire cover story on Time Copyright © 2006 Time Inc.
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#1. To: Morgana le Fay (#0)
And propelled by Osteen's 4 million-selling book, Your Best Life Now, the belief has swept beyond its Pentecostal base into more buttoned-down evangelical churches, and even into congregations in the more liberal Mainline. It is taught in hundreds of non-Pentecostal Bible studies. One Pennsylvania Lutheran pastor even made it the basis for a sermon series for Lent, when Christians usually meditate on why Jesus was having His Worst Life Then. ... "Who would want to get in on something where you're miserable, poor, broke and ugly and you just have to muddle through until you get to heaven?" asks Joyce Meyer, a popular television preacher and author often lumped in the Prosperity Lite camp. "I believe God wants to give us nice things." Well, this is nothing new. Mammon was worshipped as a god before Christ was born, and there is a reason for Mammon's popularity. It sounds Great! God wants me to be RICH! You CAN have your cake and eat it, too. What a pile. A man cannot serve two masters at the same time, for he will love one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Mammon (money). Some smart guy said that, and its still true.
the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.
A man cannot serve two masters at the same time, for he will love one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Mammon (money). this is true, but there is a new revelation in fundamentalist mega-churches: 'the more you talk about Jesus, the less you have to behave like him.' this gives the people there a little more leeway in what they do.
I haven't read the Bible in a while, but from memory, I can't remember any where either in the Old or New testaments, where the accumulation of wealth is praised or regarded as a worthy objective. Indeed, I always see the opposite - Jesus said quite plainly that they have their treasure on earth, and that it would be hard for a rich man to get to heaven. Give up what you have and follow me, etc. He also spoke of how the poor should be treated and that the meek would inherit the earth. In the OT, we also see praise of hard work, good family life, being a good neighbor, a good leader, a good employer - someone who is honest and virtuous, but I can recall NO WHERE where there is any praise of being rich itself or the simple accumulation of wealth. I only remember the passages where the Lord is telling us to be honest and fair with others and kind to the poor and defenseless. A lot of the Bible is actually about trusting in God, especially in adversity, and that the point is not how man overcomes adversity through his own efforts, but through accepting the will of God, and understanding how little control he has of his own life and circumstances. The book of Job is the greatest example of this. These people who have these gospels of prosperity have found their reward on this earth and that's the one they keep.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
I agree with y'all. These prosperity-gospel churches are baloney. Did John the Baptist prosper from following jesus. Did Paul (&Silas)? no, they lived in poverty and were executed. the same happened to other disciples. None of them got rich. concerning rich people & prosperity, my recollection of bible lessons is as follows: 1 - Jesus said very clearly that it would be very hard for rich people to enter into the kingdom of heaven. There are places in the bible that do mock and ridicule the rich, associate them with evil and it is the bible that says their rewards are in their money and not in kingdom of heaven. 2 - in OT it says very clearly that if you work hard and persistently that you will prosper and that this is good. It also says that laziness creates poverty. 3 - it says we'd better have respect for the poor and provide charity and in business treat them decently. 4 - and you better read the bit in Matthew 25 about how when judgement comes jesus will consider whether you helped a poor person who came to you in need before he decides how to judge you. bible also says that in the 'end-times' there will be many preachers who are in it for the money and preaching false doctrines.
...I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:24. The parallel versions appear in Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:24-25 and Luke 18:24-25. The occasion of the saying, according to the gospel writers, was after a rich young man had asked Jesus what he needed to do in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus replied that he should first, keep the commandments (he listed only those concerning duty to men), sell all his possessions, and give the money to the poor, and then to come, follow Jesus. Because of his great wealth, the young man was unwilling to do this. Jesus then turned to his disciples, and spoke this phrase to their astonishment, leading them to doubt that salvation was possible for anyone. Wikipedia entry on "Eye of a needle". I checked the Greek of Matthew 19:24. That is indeed what it says. No doubt about it.
Katrina was America's Chernobyl.
My opinion is that God doesn't give a shit about money ... besides we don't have any in our system. [Debt based economy/fiat currency]. If a man/woman earns their living honestly without preying upon the gullible, ignorant or otherwise handicapped ... they have overcome the main obstacles in Amerika; that being making a living on less than 1% of the populace !
"eventus stultorum magister" Fools must be taught by experience
Yep, that's what this gospel really means. When you read the letters and Acts section of the New Testament, with communal property and folks being struck dead for lying about the money they held back, you realize that the first Christians had more in common with COMMIES than they have with our materialistic society. When you see the fortress caves of Cappodocia where the early Christians lived and worshipped, and realize that without these labrynthine fortresses they would not have survived in a world that despised them, you feel a little embarrassed for the Money/Fame/State/War worshipping Christian churches of today. Christ specifically warned about worshipping Money and Fame and The State; and replacing the worship of God with the worship of Kings; Else what means "Render unto God what is God's" (the forgotten half of the famous "render unto Caesar" quote). We have three solid points of identity as people. Our Faith, our ethnicity and our nation. Judaism was originally a war-religion, with God demanding that the Jews (defined racially) kill others and take territory, as such it connected Faith, Nation and Ethnicity; Islam was originally a war-religion without the ethnicity requirement, and combined Faith and Nation. Christianity was NOT originally a war religion, and was founded on Faith by itself; with neither Nation nor Ethnicity as a unifying factor. In every attempt man makes to tie Christianity to war or nation or money or fame; man is inconsistent. Non-violence, humility, charity and tolerance (ie-multiculturalism) are the hallmarks of original Christianity; worship of money and the state and war and such are the hallmarks of paganism.
the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.
Isn't that more or less exactly the behavior Jesus criticized in the Pharisees?
Katrina was America's Chernobyl.
This whole gospel of prosperity nonsense makes me think that frequently Man creates God in his own image, rather than the other way around.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
A philosophy? Those idiot snake-handlers haven't gotten anything right in relationship to Christianity. Their creepy "God" must be from Pluto, because it sure doesn't resemble anything in the Bible.
yeah - who would want to be like Christ and all his apostles? Much better to be like Herod and the Pharisees and Sadducees and Pilate.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
The Bible tells us that to whom much has been given, much will be required: see the story of Joseph in the OT, the parable of the servants, and the widow's mite in the NT, for dealing with money and responsibility. We were also told that, "Lo, the poor will be with ye alway." Those with more are to help them, as they are able to, according to their means. As my dad always said, "You can't out-give the Lord."
There are also "poor" people who live better than the rest of us due to using the State to expropriate money and goods from others.....some of them are just dumber than dirt and buy the McMansion, the gigantic SUV, the projection screen TV, and get into debt to do it. Are they rich or poor? In goods, they are rich. In spirit, though, they are poor. I've always taken this in a historical context. In olden times, the "rich" attained and retained their wealth by expropriating it rather than earning it and were, for the most part, idle, while extracting their wealth from others. In modern times, the rich, except for heirs and heiresses, attain their wealth by creating an enterprise which generates wealth or by denying themselves present consumption and saving/investing their earnings - wealth nowadays is created rather than expropriated and tends to help people (though not always) rather than exploit them. Also, it has been discovered that simply handing money or goods to people does little to alleviate their situation. Like crack, it makes them addicted to handouts. Africa is a good example of a total basket case that is dependent on handouts and can do little to help itself because of its addiction to charity. Take, for example, the Freeway On-Ramp Sign Holders. By exploiting peoples' tendencies for charity, around here, they average a tax-free income of more than $60,000 per year, at least around here. That's a taxable income of around $100k. They aren't exactly poor even though they play at it and there is an entire industry devoted to shuttling them around and processing the loot. So, one must be careful when figuring out how to be charitable. Lots of charities also appropriate most of the money they process for themselves. These kinds of problems did not occur as often in Biblical times. In modern times, its difficult to figure out whether a "poor" person is more in need of money or knowledge. Indeed, its hard to figure out if they actually need something or they just want another big-screen TV.
Press 1 to proceed in English. Press 2 for Deportation.
That's now interpreted: to whom much has been given, they shall take more. We were also told that, "Lo, the poor will be with ye alway." Those with more are to help them, as they are able to, according to their means. That's now interpreted best by FEMA in New Orleans. As my dad always said, "You can't out-give the Lord." The saying now is "Invest wisely, and save. He'll understand."
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers Thanks for the modern-thought update. Guess I'll stick with my old-school teachings and beliefs - I don't have the time or energy or desire to change.
Well, that's the bitch of it, isn't it? God wants sane, rational people in his churches; but sane and rational people have to be repelled at the money worshipping, state-bootlicking, social-standing praying, and hedonistic parctices of mainstream evangelical churches... The bottom line for the religious is this, there's a strait gate and a narrow path and a wide gate and a broad path. The wide gate goes to hell and the strait gate gets you to heaven. The relative widths of the paths hasn't changed, and the vast majority of people will get faith wrong. If you aren't particularly religious, you won't find anything in the main churches to attract you; unless you are attracted by the wrong things. I consider myself to be both rational and a Christian. That's more and more a contradiction, seemingly.
the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.
The Great Commission - it says nothing about building huge churches, or even small ones.
The American church leadership seems more interested in "the end of the age" than anything else in that verse. And, they seem determined to do it their way.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers That's how I read it, too, loddy. The wealthy young man who came to Jesus wanting to know what it took is the perfect example of why the rich man has a hard time getting thru the needle--he wouldn't/couldn't give up the wealth thereby making it his god and not the true God. How the wealthy use their wealth is the helper or hinderer.......... AND, wealth is in the eye of the beholder. Recall the widow who only had a tiny wee amount, but she freely gave of what she had. It was counted more important than the tinhorn wealthy guy that was so exact in measurements he wouldn't give a grain over the amount called for. Even the poorest of the poor can give something....even if it is 'just' a little time. The sacrificial system of the O.T. made it obvious that ALL were to give something; and not everyone had a bullock, ram, or goat......that was why the 'meaningless' turtledoves were acceptable to God.
And that comes from a carpenter! Seriously, Jesus didn't go around building these huge edifices and calling them churches. The 'church' is the outcalled ones--called out of humanity to be a follower of Jesus Christ. I remember as a kid of 10 or so attending church services in a tent on a lot that this group of people had purchased. They were attempting to stay out of debt, so they were actively saving a building fund. Being in the Valley (San Fernando) in So=Cal, there were lots of trademen, so when the fund level was right, they started building. I can remember going to the site on Saturdays and helping keep the junk picked up (cut off ends of 2x4s, etc). It seemed like it took forever, but there was a method. After the foundation was laid and cured, then came the stud walls and the roof. It took time to get the walls filled in with plywood, drywall, and stained glass windows--not fancy ones with pictures, but merely colored glass. The whole time we continued meeting in the big tent. Before the chapel sanctuary was completed, there began a drive for each family to pay for a pew. They knew this would be a drawn out affair, but by paying a few dollars each week towards the goal, it eventually worked. Til then, we used the folding chairs from the tent! That building has now been torn down in the name of progress, so apartment buildings could be constructed. Over at the ranch, we talked with the old folks we purchased it from a lot. Once when we were talking, the subject of church and religion came up, and Henry said something to the effect that he had the greatest cathedral ever==as he spread his arm out to encompass the mountains, the pine trees, the river, and the productive land........and he looked heavenward. As far as I'm concerned, ol Henry had it more right than what they're passing off as churches and religion today.
Does God want you to have a full belly?
Morning, Dee. I'm with Henry on this one.
The Bible does describe Abram (Abraham) as an extremely wealthy individual. And it goes on to reveal to us that those immense riches didn't inhibit his relationship with the Almighty. I believe that the main points to remember are to:
The love of money (not money itself) is the root of all evil. I think that's true. I think the Bible portrays wealth as being an outgrowth of a good and righteous life. It's not essential, as we can see Jesus and his followers were not wealthy, nor were the prophets of the OT, but if a man lived a good life, and was fair and honest in his dealings with all, and acknowledged God, there was nothing inherently wrong with his being wealthy, and wealth might be a logical outgrowth of a strong and healthy family and community system. The problem we have is that people seek wealth for wealth's sake, and try to manipulate or connive others out of money or the proper price for their labor ("The laborer is worthy of his hire."). They make the gathering of wealth and consumption of material goods their main value in life, and that's just unhealthy and unrighteous.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
---------------- The American church leadership seems more interested in "the end of the age" than anything else in that verse. And, they seem determined to do it their way. ...and as ye sow, so shall ye reap.... Jesus said, I have come that ye may have life, and have it more abundantly. But He also said this: 1Jo 3:17 — But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? http://www.blueletterb ible.org/tsk_b/1Jo/3/17.html And to him who is given, much is expected. The disciples could not be said to have much in the way of worldly goods, and in fact, they taught that that kingdom had come to an end, and to sell their goods and build their treasures in heaven. I think we are to take what we are given in order to help others in need, and to bring souls to Christ. Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and THEN the other things will be added. I'm not sure we're going to be showered with big-screen TV's when He comes back. I think eternal life with the King of all creation, and our loved ones, in a world at peace with all creation, paradise restored, are treasures you can't put a price tag on. Mat 25:14 ¶ For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made [them] other five talents. Mat 25:17 And likewise he that [had received] two, he also gained other two. Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine. Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents. Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mat 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat025.html#28 The money is the root of all evil. I'm afraid many of us [myself included] got sidetracked in the pursuit of worldly goods, or just SURVIVING in this evil system we were born into, and almost forgot the Great Commission. Pat Robertson, by using his "Operation Blessing" planes to transport diamonds out of Africa, where people have had hands hacked off, or have been hacked TO DEATH, in order that godless rich men could become richer, not to mention being a false prophet and Judas, turning the flock into Synagogue of Satan worshippers, may be in for a surprise on judgement day. Lesson for us all, born into this country of abundance...how many souls have WE brought to Christ? We have to understand the pursuit of money and self-gratification was a snare put before us by Satan and his minions, that God might cast us out of this nation that He gave Christians [the true House of the Lord] for an inheritance [2 Samuel 7:10, Ezekiel 34:11-13, John 10]. Taking Solomon as an example: 2Ch 7:12 ¶ And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice. [for us, it is a house of prayer and self-sacrifice] 2Ch 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; 2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2Ch 7:15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer [that is made] in this place. 2Ch 7:16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually. 2Ch 7:17 And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments; 2Ch 7:18 Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man [to be] ruler in Israel. 2Ch 7:19 ¶ But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; 2Ch 7:20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it [to be] a proverb and a byword among all nations. 2Ch 7:21 And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house? 2Ch 7:22 And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/2Ch/7/20.html http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Lam/2/16.html http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Eze/36/3.html See also Micah 4:11, Psalm 2:1-3. They want the land and the kingdom, and us out of it.
Nice example, thanks! And for the Scripture verses!
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers Yes. The followers were thinking that Jesus would return in a week, or so, and make things right in their lifetime - oops. This time is known only to God himself, and we just have to do the right thing (s) until He comes, or until we are no longer here to deal with it.
While they don't exclusively teach that God's riches want to be in believers' wallets, it is a key part of their doctrine.
#2. To: bluedogtxn (#1)
What a pile.
#3. To: Morgana le Fay (#0)
#4. To: mehitable, bluedogtxn, Morgana le Fay (#3)
These people who have these gospels of prosperity have found their reward on this earth and that's the one they keep.
#5. To: Morgana le Fay (#0)
"The eye of a needle" is part of a phrase attributed to Jesus by the synoptic gospels:
#6. To: Red Jones (#4)
#7. To: Morgana le Fay (#2)
this is true, but there is a new revelation in fundamentalist mega-churches: 'the more you talk about Jesus, the less you have to behave like him.'
#8. To: Morgana le Fay (#2)
there is a new revelation in fundamentalist mega-churches: 'the more you talk about Jesus, the less you have to behave like him.'
#9. To: bluedogtxn, all (#7)
#10. To: Morgana le Fay (#0)
For several decades, a philosophy has been percolating in the 10 million-strong Pentecostal wing of Christianity that seems to turn the Gospels' passage on its head.
#11. To: Morgana le Fay (#0)
"Who would want to get in on something where you're miserable, poor, broke and ugly and you just have to muddle through until you get to heaven?"
#12. To: Everyone here (#9)
#13. To: Red Jones (#4)
#14. To: lodwick (#12)
The Bible tells us that to whom much has been given, much will be required: see the story of Joseph in the OT, the parable of the servants, and the widow's mite in the NT, for dealing with money and responsibility.
#15. To: robin (#14)
I guess you're right.
#16. To: mehitable (#9)
This whole gospel of prosperity nonsense makes me think that frequently Man creates God in his own image, rather than the other way around.
#17. To: bluedogtxn, everyone here (#16)
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)
#18. To: lodwick, AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#17)
#19. To: lodwick (#12)
#20. To: lodwick (#17)
it says nothing about building huge churches, or even small ones.
#21. To: Morgana le Fay (#0)
What really hit home for me was when my Croatian limo driver complained about having to learn Spanish.
#22. To: rowdee (#20)
As far as I'm concerned, ol Henry had it more right than what they're passing off as churches and religion today.
#23. To: mehitable (#3)
I can't remember any where either in the Old or New testaments, where the accumulation of wealth is praised or regarded as a worthy objective.
I don’t believe that wealth alone is enough to destroy one’s relationship with the Creator (Job is another example of how wealth and a true heart can coexist), but loving it above all else & placing it first in your life will insure a ticket on a hot, one way ride.
#24. To: Buzzard (#23)
#25. To: robin, lodwick, Morgana le Fay (#18)
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20) The Great Commission - it says nothing about building huge churches, or even small ones.
#26. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#25)
Pat Robertson, by using his "Operation Blessing" planes to transport diamonds out of Africa,
#27. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt, truthseekers here (#25)
And to him who is given, much is expected. The disciples could not be said to have much in the way of worldly goods, and in fact, they taught that that kingdom had come to an end, and to sell their goods and build their treasures in heaven. I think we are to take what we are given in order to help others in need, and to bring souls to Christ. Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and THEN the other things will be added.
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