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9/11
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Title: Do American Christians Condone Torture?
Source: Somewhere on the Google antiwar left
URL Source: [None]
Published: Sep 22, 2006
Author: John Swift... maybe...
Post Date: 2006-09-22 14:31:28 by bluedogtxn
Keywords: None
Views: 255
Comments: 35

Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan & Guantanamo: Do American 'Christians' Condone Torture? by jo swift at 09:40PM (CEST) on September 27, 2005 | Permanent Link | Cosmos Where do American religious leaders stand on torture? Their deafening silence evokes memories of the unconscionable behavior of German church leaders in the 1930s and early 1940s.

Despite the hate whipped up by administration propagandists against those it brands "terrorists," most Americans agree that torture should not be permitted.

Few seem aware, though, that although President George W. Bush says he is against torture, he has openly declared that our military and other interrogators may engage in torture "consistent with military necessity."

For far too long, we have been acting like "obedient Germans." Shall we continue to avert our eyes – even as our mainstream media begin to expose the "routine" torture conducted by U.S. forces in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo?

Senate Armed Forces Committee Chairman John Warner took a strong rhetorical stand against torture early last year after seeing the photos from Abu Ghraib. Then he succumbed to strong political pressure to postpone Senate hearings on the subject until after the November 2004 election.

Those of us who live in Virginia might probe our consciences on this. Shall we citizens of the once-proud Old Dominion simply acquiesce while Sen. Warner shirks his constitutional duty?

We have come a long way since Virginia patriot Patrick Henry loudly insisted that the rack and the screw were barbaric practices that must be left behind in the Old World, or we are "lost and undone."

Can Americans from other states consult their own consciences with respect to what justice may require of them in denouncing torture as passionately as the patriots who founded our nation?

On Sept. 24, The New York Times ran a detailed report regarding the kinds of "routine" torture that U.S. servicemen and women have been ordered to carry out. This week's Time also has an article on the use of torture by U.S. forces in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo.

Those two articles are based on a new report from Human Rights Watch, a report that relies heavily on the testimony of a West Point graduate, an Army captain who has had the courage to speak out.

A Pentagon spokesman has dismissed the report as "another predictable report by an organization trying to advance an agenda through the use of distortion and errors of fact." Judge for yourselves; the report can be found here. Grim but required reading.

INHUMAN

History, even recent history, demonstrates once again that absolute power corrupts absolutely. See if you can guess the author of the following:

"In this land that has inherited through our forebears the noblest understandings of the rule of law, our government has deliberately chosen the way of barbarism. …

"There is a price to be paid for the right to be called a civilized nation. That price can be paid in only one currency – the currency of human rights. … When this currency is devalued, a nation chooses the company of the world's dictatorships and banana republics. I indict this government for the crime of taking us into that shady fellowship.

"The rule of law says that cruel and inhuman punishment is beneath the dignity of a civilized state. But to prisoners we say, 'We will hold you where no one can hear your screams.' When I used the word 'barbarism,' this is what I meant. The entire policy stands condemned by the methods used to pursue it.

"We send a message to the jailers, interrogators, and those who make such practices possible and permissible: 'Power is a fleeting thing. One day your souls will be required of you.'"

- Bishop Peter Storey, Central Methodist Mission, Johannesburg, June 1981

I asked a Muslim friend recently what the Koran says about torture. After consulting an imam, she reported that the Koran does not address the subject because the Koran deals only "with human behavior." Do not we of the Judeo-Christian tradition also reject torture as inhuman and never morally permissible?

The various rationalizations for torture do not bear close scrutiny. Intelligence specialists concede that the information acquired by torture cannot be considered reliable. Our own troops are brutalized when they follow orders to brutalize.

And they are exposed to much greater risk when captured. Our country becomes a pariah among nations. Above all, torture is simply wrong. It falls into the same category of evil as slavery and rape. Torture is inhuman and immoral, whether or not our bishops and rabbis can summon the courage to name it so.

IT'S UP TO US

By keeping their tongue-tied heads way down, our religious leaders have forfeited the moral authority with which they otherwise could speak. They end up playing the role of Hitler's Reichsbishops, who supported – or at least acquiesced in – the policies and methods of the Third Reich.

Many American men and women – Jews, Christians, Muslims of the Abrahamic tradition – have learned not to depend on clergy leaders who bless the Empire. The inescapable conclusion is, as popular theologian Annie Dillard reminds us, "There is only us; there never has been any other."

The question is this: Are we are up to the challenge of confronting the evil of torture, or shall we prove Patrick Henry right? Is our country about to be "lost and undone?" Poster's Comment: This article is about a year old. Notice that the debate is pretty much the same, the players pretty much the same, the attitudes pretty much the same... As a Christian, I'm outraged at torture. It's as barbaric and anti-Christ as anything I can think of. But what the writer notes above is just as true now as then. The churches have remained silent. "If we are the body, why aren't our hands reaching? Why aren't our lips speaking?"

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#1. To: bluedogtxn (#0)

Does the party of life, the death penalty and endless war condone torture?

Judging by the Abu Ghraib reaction, only if the torture involves a homo erortic aspect and either brown people or people who disagree with Bush.

I suppose you would have to ask a devout Christian like John Ashcroft what he thought about torture before you could be 100% certain.

.

...  posted on  2006-09-22   14:41:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: ... (#1)

Does the party of life, the death penalty and endless war condone torture?

Apparently...I'm in the 'Bible Belt', and many here seem to feel that Bush is a great 'man of G-d'. I understand the Scriptural basis for a 'pro death penalty' position, but I can't reconcile the 'pro life/pro-war' position.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-09-22   14:54:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: ... (#1)

I suppose you would have to ask a devout Christian like John Ashcroft what he thought about torture before you could be 100% certain.

Could this be why Ashcroft bailed on the current administration? Did his 'conscience' get to him?

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-09-22   14:55:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: bluedogtxn (#0)

"obedient Germans."

Hitler and the Germans are never gonna get off the hook.

Somehow history misplaced the "obedient Russians" and their glorious leader Stalin.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-22   15:00:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: who knows what evil (#2)

I understand the Scriptural basis for a 'pro death penalty' position,

I never really did. I mean, I never saw a pro-death penalty position that could be reconciled with what Christ did when the adultress was about to get stoned...

But that's something about which many of my fellow congregants disagree with me on...

but torture?

How can one possibly condone it and still say "I'm a christian"?

I just don't get it.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-09-22   15:00:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Cynicom (#4)

"obedient Germans." Hitler and the Germans are never gonna get off the hook.

They deserve to stay on the hook, IMO.

Genocide has consequences.

More troubling to me is the silence of American churches on the torture issue. I'd hate for the next century's example to be the "obedient Americans"...

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-09-22   15:02:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: who knows what evil (#3)

Could this be why Ashcroft bailed on the current administration? Did his 'conscience' get to him?

I don't think he bailed until after he finished the memo encouraging Bush on the torure issue. Seems if conscience was a factor, he would have left before enabling the bad guys.

.

...  posted on  2006-09-22   15:08:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: bluedogtxn (#5)

I just don't get it.

I agree...it is creepy to listen to the 'pro-life Christians' beating the war drums around these parts.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-09-22   15:09:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: ... (#7)

Seems if conscience was a factor, he would have left before enabling the bad guys.

You could be right, but sometimes the conscience is slow to stir.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-09-22   15:10:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: who knows what evil (#9)

You could be right, but sometimes the conscience is slow to stir.

I am pretty sure that is what happened with Powell. I am almost certain after listening to him over the past week. He seems to wish that he had quit before he went on at the UN.

.

...  posted on  2006-09-22   15:17:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: bluedogtxn (#6)

Dostoyevsky said that the degree of civilization of a society can be judged by entering its prisons.

Given the state of America's supermax rape fest prison systems and now the legalization of torture I would say the US is about as barbaric as a nation can get.

Burkeman1  posted on  2006-09-22   15:26:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Burkeman1 (#11)

Dostoyevsky said that the degree of civilization of a society can be judged by entering its prisons.

Given the state of America's supermax rape fest prison systems and now the legalization of torture I would say the US is about as barbaric as a nation can get.

I agree with Dostoyevsky. And yes, our prisons have become places to learn to hate other races, other people and to learn how to kill w/o mercy.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-22   15:42:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: who knows what evil (#8)

it is creepy to listen to the 'pro-life Christians' beating the war drums

Gah. "Pro-life". How I hate that meaningless term. Myself, I am anti- abortion; but also favor its legality. Because at the core I am anti government telling us how to live our lives. Free to choose, I would choose not to have an abortion, but free to choose is the necessary predicate to calling that a moral decision.

Otherwise it's just doing as you are told. Any fucking sheep can do that.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-09-22   15:55:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Burkeman1 (#11)

Dostoyevsky said that the degree of civilization of a society can be judged by entering its prisons.

This is an interesting proposition. Because our prisons aren't really that bad (although they are admittedly getting much worse very rapidly with the developing "supermax" concept, which is basically 24/7 isolation); there are just so damn many of them.

We have more prisons than any other country in the world, and we are rapidly building more. We have more of our people in prison than anyone else, and here we are building detention centers along the border to house hundreds of thousands more.

If the prisons aren't that bad, but everyone is in prison, is Dostoyevsky wrong?

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-09-22   16:00:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: bluedogtxn (#6)

They deserve to stay on the hook, IMO.

Indeed they should, however, Stalin and the "Russians" need equal billing. They were at it long before Hitler came to power. Walter Duranty did his part to cleanse the blood from the "Russians" hands.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-22   16:02:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Cynicom (#15)

They deserve to stay on the hook, IMO. Indeed they should, however, Stalin and the "Russians" need equal billing.

Well, yeah, but then you gotta tack on Mao and Pol Pot and Idi Amin and the Turks and the Tutsis and the Hutus and the list just goes on and on and on...

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-09-22   16:06:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: bluedogtxn (#14)

Prisons in this country are a nightmare. Frankly- I would rather do time in Turkey than in your typical American AIDS/HIV infested prison sytems. Rape is pandemic across the board. And if you are in a SuperMAX you may not get raped but you can pretty much check your sanity at the door as you spend your life in eternally lite cells (they don't turn the lights off- ever) with pink walls (to calm you) with nothing to do but play with your own feces and urine- mutilate yourself- and slowly feel your brain turn to goo.

This is a country in which we celebrate Sheriffs who make inmates who masturbate where pink stripped uniforms- in which chain gangs are back in vogue (legions of black prisoners in jail for petty drug offenses or failure to appear warrants 4 years old can now be seen again along the highways of the South slashing at weeds with sythes). Rehabilitation has all but been abandoned in this country- no pretense. Just warehouse them- give them substandard food I wouldn't feed a cat- and put them to work for pennies on the hour for "private" firms doing all manner of light industry. This system is a ticking time bomb.

Burkeman1  posted on  2006-09-22   16:12:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: bluedogtxn (#16)

Well, yeah, but then you gotta tack on Mao and Pol Pot and Idi Amin and the Turks and the Tutsis and the Hutus and the list just goes on and on and on...

We have to go forward, not backward, remember Lenin and friends started it way back in 1917.

The major slaughtering of people all came AFTER Lenin.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-22   16:16:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Cynicom (#18)

We have to go forward, not backward, remember Lenin and friends started it way back in 1917.

Well, actually the Turks went after the Armenians before that...

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-09-22   16:28:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: bluedogtxn (#19)

Well, actually the Turks went after the Armenians before that...

I made a point of "MAJOR" slaughtering? Lenin/Stalin make all others look like pikers.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-22   17:14:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Cynicom (#18)

There's now a controversy among French historians about whether the brutal repression by the French Revolution of counterrevolutionaries in the Vendée constituted genocide. Apparently, the numbers of people killed went into the six figures.

Katrina was America's Chernobyl.

aristeides  posted on  2006-09-22   17:16:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: bluedogtxn (#6)

It's a matter of dispute how much ordinary Germans knew what was really going on under the Nazis. Any American who goes to a little trouble knows what is going on here now.

Katrina was America's Chernobyl.

aristeides  posted on  2006-09-22   17:19:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Cynicom (#20)

I made a point of "MAJOR" slaughtering? Lenin/Stalin make all others look like pikers.

1.5 million Armenian Christians isn't "Major"?

Wow. Pretty high bar you set.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-09-22   17:22:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Cynicom (#20)

I made a point of "MAJOR" slaughtering? Lenin/Stalin make all others look like pikers.

No, that would be Mao. Lenin and Stalin have to share a title. Mao did 40 million all by himself. But anyone who breaks the million barrier gets Platinum Membeship in the Mass Murder Club in my book.

SmokinOPs  posted on  2006-09-22   17:22:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: aristeides (#22)

It's a matter of dispute how much ordinary Germans knew what was really going on under the Nazis. Any American who goes to a little trouble knows what is going on here now.

Oh, I don't know about that. The disinformation storm unleashed by the likes of Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Fox News, the Reich Wing Papers...

There's plenty of grist for the mental mills that just believe what they want to believe.

Hell, I suppose in a sense I believe what I want to believe, too. I just happen to believe the government is shit.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-09-22   17:25:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: bluedogtxn (#23)

A lot of people got killed in the Greek War of Independence, early in the 19th century. Among the Greeks the Turks killed was the whole population of the island of Chios. (If you take a little walk uphill from the main town of Chios to the monastery of Nea Moni, you can still see the skeletons of people the Turks killed there. Delacroix did a famous painting of the Massacre on Chios.) Plus, the Greeks killed a lot of the Moslems living in Greece, including Turks, as well as Greeks converted to Islam (i.e., collaborators).

Katrina was America's Chernobyl.

aristeides  posted on  2006-09-22   17:30:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: bluedogtxn (#23)

Wow. Pretty high bar you set.

Many people have a problem with equating Lenin/Stalin with mass slaughter. They would much rather cite the Turks, Germans or whomever.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-22   17:30:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: aristeides (#26)

A lot of people got killed in the Greek War of Independence, early in the 19th century. Among the Greeks the Turks killed was the whole population of the island of Chios.

Well, genocide and ethnic cleansing have a long and storied history, going all the way back deep into the bible (for the creationists), and deeper still among our dark, evolutionary past...

Man is murder.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-09-22   17:31:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Cynicom (#27)

Many people have a problem with equating Lenin/Stalin with mass slaughter.

Maybe some Russians. I suppose there are still a few Marxist Russkie-type commies around somewhere, but that's probably a pretty rare breed. I got no problem equating Lenin/Stalin with mass murder, that's certainly what they did. Mao, too.

But the Nazis certainly got in their licks.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-09-22   17:33:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: aristeides (#22)

The ordinary German during WWII heard only what the government wanted them to hear. Now- of course they also might have heard whispers about this or that atrocity going on- or about camps- but they could easily dismiss such rumors as the ravings of "communists" or various enemies or their equivelent term for "moonbat".

Imagine being a 25 year German housewife- reared under Nazi Germany- being told how good and moral your nation is compared to the vile enemies of the East. The newspapers, radio, news reels, all present a pretty picture of what is going on- bombarded day in and day out with such propaganda. Would a conversation about second hand rumors about masscres and murder camps erase all that? Of course not- you would think the person a nut or a "moonbat" and maybe even an enemy themselves.

We see this mindset on LP and Freaker land. Except they have less of an excuse- they can dig on the internet and learn things. But they simply dismiss everything that doesn't come from their own propaganda organs as lies. The Nazi government itself set the Reichstag fire? Abusrd! Moonbatism! The Radio tells me the communists did it! They would tell us otherwise- some brave reporter would write about it!

Same with 9/11. The Gubmint did 9/11? Moonbatism! Lies of the enemies! Anti Semites! Islamo fascist sympathsizers!

Burkeman1  posted on  2006-09-22   17:38:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: bluedogtxn (#29)

But the Nazis certainly got in their licks.

There are numerous charts avaiable on the net representing mass muder by governments. The Soviet Union leads ALL on every chart. Failure to cite Russia/Soviet Union is intended.

ABSTRACT

"This is a report of the statistical results from a project on comparative genocide and mass-murder in this century. Most probably near 170,000,000 people have been murdered in cold-blood by governments, well over three-quarters by absolutist regimes. The most such killing was done by the Soviet Union (near 62,000,000 people), the communist government of China is second (near 35,000,000), followed by Nazi Germany (almost 21,000,000), and Nationalist China (some 10,000,000). Lesser megamurderers include WWII Japan, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, WWI Turkey, communist Vietnam, post-WWII Poland, Pakistan, and communist Yugoslavia. The most intense democide was carried out by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, where they killed over 30 percent of their subjects in less than four years. The best predictor of this killing is regime power. The more arbitrary power a regime has, the less democratic it is, the more likely it will kill its subjects or foreigners. The conclusion is that power kills, absolute power kills absolutely. "

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-22   17:45:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: SmokinOPs (#24)

No, that would be Mao.

Check Nr 31...or view any chart on the net that pertains to mass slaughter..

Soviet Union wins hands down on all charts.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-22   19:26:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Cynicom (#32)

Check Nr 31...or view any chart on the net that pertains to mass slaughter..

Soviet Union wins hands down on all charts.

Yours is the first instance where I have seen a Soviet total of 62,000,000 unless you are counting WWII deaths. But I thought you were at first comparing leader vs. leader and now you are switching to Nation vs. Nation. Stalin's death total has been estimated between 25-35 million while Mao has had estimates as high as 40 million. Matthew White's chart has Mao's regime as the top killer outside of WWII in the 20th Century. http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

Wasn't your point though about who has gotten a pass for their atrocities? If anyone has had a pass it is most certainly Mao, hands down. Mao was meeting with Kissinger and Nixon in 1972 for crying out loud. And this while America was supposedly at war with Communism. In fact while Kissinger was smiling away, shaking hands with a Communist mass murderer, boys were dying in Southeast Asia who were told they were there to stop the Reds. Kissinger and Nixon didn't even have the excuse of a World War II raging to meet with a mass murderer as FDR did with his meeting with Stalin.

Ask 100 Americans on the street who killed more people: Mao or Saddam, and I'll bet 80% say Saddam. Hell, they may say the same thing when asked about Stalin vs Saddam though I suppose. No amount of American ignorance surprises me anymore.

SmokinOPs  posted on  2006-09-22   20:11:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: SmokinOPs (#33)

Wasn't your point though about who has gotten a pass for their atrocities?

Yes...

Also, the charts show totals different by millions on all governments, however, the Soviet Union is tops in all charts regardless of the totals. Whether the Soviet Union slaughtered 10M or 60M, they always get top billing.

Further, many such charts and commentary point out that it has been communist countries that have been the worst offenders. Hanging the evil label on Germans and Hitler is well justified but to NEVER mention Lenin/Stalin is a bit disengenuous and in fact dishonest.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-22   20:37:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: ... (#1)

John Ashcroft

John Ashcroft as you know was attorney general of bush admin during first term. that is when the interpretation of the law was changed to allow torture. people under ashcroft wrote memos to do that. And in my memory I seem to remember that ashcroft himself is on record supporting torture.

It is very sad to me that many christian people do support torture. If they support bush they support torture. and they do support bush mindlessly.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-09-23   16:06:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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