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History
See other History Articles

Title: Was Dresdan a war crime?
Source: Institute for Historical Review
URL Source: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/ ... ed-9a03-4d0b-90f7-57a9192e8a79
Published: Sep 23, 2006
Author: Christopher Hitchens
Post Date: 2006-09-23 09:54:56 by Zoroaster
Keywords: None
Views: 583
Comments: 57

Saturday » September 23 » 2006

Was Dresden a war crime? In February, 1945, Allied aircraft firebombed the German city of Dresden, killing an estimated 40,000 civilians. The scale of the bombing has caused some historians to ask:

Christopher Hitchens National Post

Wednesday, September 06, 2006

CREDIT: Walter Hahn, AFP, Getty Images The view from Dresden's townhall after the Allied bombings on Feb. 13 and 14, 1945.

The most important document from the era of National Socialism is Victor Klemperer's diary of survival under the Third Reich, I Will Bear Witness. It gives an account of every day of Hitler's 13-year dictatorship, written by a German-Jewish convert to Protestantism who had married a heroic Protestant woman, and who briefly imagined that his dual loyalty (to employ an otherwise suspect phrase) might win him some immunity. Swiftly disabused on that score, Klemperer resolved to depict his beloved Germany's collapse into barbarism.

The diary possesses three dimensions that are of great interest to us. By its portrayal of innumerable acts of decency and solidarity on the part of ordinary Germans, it seems to rebut the Daniel Jonah Goldhagen diatribe about "willing executioners." By its agonizing description of the steady and pitiless erosion of German Jewry, it puts to shame all those who doubt that Hitler's state had a coldly evolved plan of extirpation. And it forces one to reconsider the Allied policy of "area bombing."

By February, 1945, the Klemperers had been moved to a centre in Dresden to await the final transport to "the East," from which none of their friends had ever returned. They were among the very last; those married to "Aryans" had been permitted some latitude. But they knew very well what was coming. And then, beginning on the night of Feb. 13, the most beautiful city in Germany was suddenly set on fire from end to end, by a scientifically designed bombing pattern that swept away its architecture and roasted and melted and buried at least 40,000 of its citizens.

The Klemperers were not at the exact epicentre, but Victor was injured in the eye by debris and slightly scorched, and the couple were nearly separated. Finding Nazi authority destroyed after the departure of the Anglo-American bombers, they took off their yellow-star armbands and began to walk toward the Red Army.

Did the immolation of Dresden and so many other German cities liberate the Klemperers, or would the Royal Air Force (RAF) and United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) have equally happily burned them to death?

Hundreds of thousands of German civilians, including the flower of the German anti-Nazi labour movement, were burned or buried alive in these incredible bombardments. Churchill's advisers told him to blast working-class districts because the houses were more tightly packed together.

Some say that Dresden was not really a military target and that it was obliterated mainly in order to impress Stalin, while others argue that Dresden was indeed a hub city for Hitler's armies.

This leaves us with a somewhat arid and suspect antithesis: Were these bombings war crimes, and if so, were they justified on the grounds that they shortened the duration of the criminal war itself?

Anthony Grayling, a very deft and literate English moral philosopher, now seeks to redistribute the middle of this latent syllogism in his new book, Among the Dead Cities: The History and Moral Legacy of the World War II Bombing of Civilians in Germany and Japan. He argues that "area bombing" was not really intended to shorten the war, and did not do so. And he further asserts that the policy was an illegal and immoral one by the standards that the Allies had announced at the onset of hostilities. Some of what he says is unarguable.

Many smaller German cities were of no military importance and were destroyed for no reason except to serve as bomb-fodder, and as practice for bombers. The British government had publicly forsworn any deliberate attack on civilian targets. Air Marshal Arthur "Bomber" Harris, who was criticized at the time in Parliament and the press, and within the Churchill administration, took the view that since Britain had starved hundreds of thousands of Germans by a naval blockade in the 1914-18 war, there was little moral difference in the precise way in which one took German life. He more or less admitted that he was incinerating German cities in 1944 and 1945, not because he had to, but because he could. It was what Bomber Command had trained to do. It was the only way he knew of taking the war to the enemy.

Winston Churchill wrote to his Chiefs of Staff in March, 1945:

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing German cities for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise, we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land. The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing."

Churchill here is still repressing his moral misgivings underneath pragmatic ones: Any more of this "terror" and there's not enough Germany to take over. But both impulses are still present.

Grayling quotes from the extensive debate that occurred in contemporary Britain. There were eloquent complaints in both houses of Parliament, in the press and among intellectuals. Some of these were honourable -- it was found that the inhabitants of badly bombed English cities did not want a policy of retaliation -- and some were based on a faintly spurious quasi-pacifism and moral equivalence.

Suppose we leave these moral qualms to one side for a minute The simple question would then become: Did it work? Grayling argues that only precision bombing of oil facilities either did work or ought to have been tried. The things that really "shortened" the war were "pinpoint" attacks on Hitler's fuel lines, and the remorseless advance of the Red Army after the titanic battle at Kursk.

If the Anglo-American effort was benefiting from Stalin's total war in the East, then what does mere bombing of civilians have to do with it? One might as well shift the centre of ethical gravity, and refocus on the mass Russian rape and pillage, followed by the incarceration of Eastern Europe and the partition and looting of Eastern Germany, that was also a price of Hitler's defeat.

In a recent exchange with him at the Goethe Institute in Washington, I offered a criticism of British policy that went further than Grayling's. Like him, I was brought up in urban areas of England that still showed the scars of Nazi bombardment. Like him, I began to doubt the official justifications for the policy imposed by Air Marshal Harris. But these misgivings ought to begin well before the horrible attack on Hamburg in 1943.

In 1938, the British government was contacted by emissaries from the Kreisau Circle, a group of courageous German oppositionists led by Count Helmuth von Moltke. They told Neville Chamberlain and Lord Halifax that if Britain stood adamantly by its guarantees to Czechoslovakia, and promised to make a stand against fascist irredentism, they could put Hitler under arrest. Their aim would be the restoration of German democracy, but their pretext would be that they had averted a war. This could only be done if the British maintained a belligerent policy instead of a capitulationist one.

Who knows if this would have succeeded? We only know that officers as highly placed as Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, the head of German military intelligence, and many influential politicians and diplomats, were part of the plan. We also know that Chamberlain and Halifax refused to talk to them. There is something unbearable in the idea of a British regime, that would not fire or risk a shot against Hitler in 1938, later deploying horrific violence against German civilians instead.

On the other hand, once the battle had been joined, one has little choice but to regard it as an anti-Nazi war at last. And to me, this involves viewing it from the standpoint of a German anti-fascist, or a non-German slave labourer or other victim of German racism. It was important not just that the Hitler system be defeated, but that it be totally and unsentimentally destroyed. The Nazis had claimed to be invincible and invulnerable: Very well, then, they must be visited by utter humiliation. No more nonsense and delusion, as with the German Right after 1918 and its myth of a stab in the back.

Eva Klemperer, a staunch and principled German Lutheran, told her husband that, after what she had experienced under Hitler, she could not find it in herself to truly regret the firestorm of Dresden. And what of the Slav and Balkan and Polish and Jewish slaves in Albert Speer's underground hellholes, forced to dig out pits for the rocket-bombs that were being directed at London? Did they not cheer silently every time the very earth shook with revenge?

A "pinpoint" bombing of Dresden's railheads in 1945 would still have left the Nazi authorities in power and allowed them to send the last transports to the killing fields.

A time for the ultimate ruling sometimes has to come, or else Negro quasi-serfs might even now be selling ice cream to obese children on the still-wooden boardwalks of Atlanta.

Nonetheless, one should also acknowledge the absolute right of Germans to reconsider this subject. There have been some important recent examples. The best is that of the late W.G. Sebald, in his book On the Natural History of Destruction.

Grayling rightly insists that nothing he says should be construed as permission for any cheap self-pity among Germans, let alone equivalence. But he commits this error of judgment and taste, as if in tribute to today's "moral equivalence" ratbags:

"A surprise attack on a civilian population aimed at causing maximum hurt, shock, disruption and terror: there comes to seem very little difference in principle between the RAF's Operation Gomorrah, or the USAAF's atom bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the destruction of the World Trade Center in New York by terrorists on September 11 2001. To say that the principle underlying 9/11, Hamburg and Hiroshima is the same is to say that the same moral judgment applies to all three."

Well, the last sentence is a null and tedious tautology. This drivel is exactly what neo-Nazis utter, and its repetition by Grayling is a subversion of all the care and measure that he brings to the subject. In what declension of "just war" theory, on which he wastes a few pages, would Osama bin Laden be allowed into the argument? Proportionality?

I admit that I have never heard or read a justification for the hideous destruction of Nagasaki, and the late Edward Teller once told me that he always favoured a "demonstration" detonation to convince the Japanese leadership to surrender, which means that we might have avoided Hiroshima as well. Any argument that any action is moral, on the ground of its being "war-shortening," is thin and glib, and may also be hateful and false.

However, if we are to be allowed alternative historical courses and speculations, there is a "moral" that Grayling overlooks. What if the RAF had been in good enough shape to inflict "terror" on Berlin in the fall of 1939? What if the United States had struck the Imperial Japanese Navy first? What if the League of Nations had decided to stand by the Spanish Republic and Abyssinia, and had pounded Franco's and Mussolini's armies before they could get off the mark?

Those who oppose violence on principle are called pacifists. Those who oppose it until its use is too little and too late, or too much and too late, should be called casuists. Those who try to resist their own despotisms, and who appeal in vain to lazy democracies who are also among the potential victims, and who welcome the eventual arrival of the bombs and planes -- I am thinking of some courageous Serbian and Iraqi democrats -- should be called our allies now, and in Europe should have been our allies no later than 1933.

Moral crisis is the vile residue of moral cowardice, and Grayling has fully proved this without quite intending to do so. His book is a treatise, not on the dubiety of the retributive, but on the urgency and integrity of the "pre-emptive."

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#1. To: Zoroaster (#0)

It wasn't just a War Crime; it was an experiment!


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-23   9:56:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: SKYDRIFTER (#1)

It wasn't just a War Crime; it was an experiment!

Who was the biggest SOB, Hitler or Churchill?

Churchill wins the prize.

Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.

Zoroaster  posted on  2006-09-23   10:11:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Zoroaster (#0)

Yes, it was a war crime.

But as is typical of Hitchens and his neocon crew, he only cares about 60-year- old war crimes and not the ones we're committing now.


I've already said too much.

MUDDOG  posted on  2006-09-23   10:22:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: MUDDOG (#3)

But as is typical of Hitchens and his neocon crew, he only cares about 60-year- old war crimes and not the ones we're committing now.

A few years ago, I respected Hitchens as a drunk with principles. I've come to think of him as a drunken opportunist, who cleans neocon commodes.

Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.

Zoroaster  posted on  2006-09-23   10:44:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Zoroaster (#2)

Who was the biggest SOB, Hitler or Churchill?

Churchill wins the prize.

err...difficult choice but surely the answer should be Stalin?

love

ruthie
XXXXXX
http://www.myspace.com/ruthiesb69

ruthie  posted on  2006-09-23   11:15:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: MUDDOG (#3)

But as is typical of Hitchens and his neocon crew, he only cares about 60-year- old war crimes and not the ones we're committing now.

During the recent Lebanon war, the Ziobots on LP tried to use the examples of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki to argue that the Israelis did nothing wrong in bombing Lebanon.

Katrina was America's Chernobyl.

aristeides  posted on  2006-09-23   11:26:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Zoroaster, MUDDOG (#4)

But as is typical of Hitchens and his neocon crew, he only cares about 60-year- old war crimes and not the ones we're committing now.

A few years ago, I respected Hitchens as a drunk with principles. I've come to think of him as a drunken opportunist, who cleans neocon commodes.

You're both on target today! I quite agree.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-23   11:35:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: aristeides, muddog, Ruthie, Zoroaster (#6)

Hitchens's mother is Jewish. That explains his about face from extreme liberalism to Bush-Blair backer and apologist for Israeli war crimes.

The Truth of 911 Shall Set You Free From The Lie

Horse  posted on  2006-09-23   11:38:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: ruthie (#5)

Who was the biggest SOB, Hitler or Churchill?

Churchill wins the prize.

err...difficult choice but surely the answer should be Stalin?

lol! Good morning ruthie! Right you are!

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-23   11:39:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Zoroaster (#0)

killing an estimated 40,000 civilians.

Dresdan was small effort compared to what we did to the Japanese with firebombing.

"The first major raid of that campaign was the firebombing of Tokyo in the middle of the night on March 9-10, 1945. 334 American B-29 bombers raced over the city at about 7,000 feet, and dropped about 1,700 tons of napalm bombs. It is estimated that about 100,000 civilians were burned to death in one (1) night. Over the next 6 months, from March 10 to Japan’s surrender on August 15, over 100 Japanese cities were firebombed; about 500,000 civilians were burned to death."

The Germans and Japanes would have done the same given the opportunity. Thats war.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-23   11:43:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: ruthie (#5)

Who was the biggest SOB, Hitler or Churchill? Churchill wins the prize. err...difficult choice but surely the answer should be Stalin?

It would be Churchill and England for the past several hundred years.

You live in Scotland, I believe? Ever heard of the Highland clearances? William Wallace?

Or how about the fact England invented the concentration camp during the Boer War? Murdered one-fourth of the Boer Population? Killed or expelled one-third of the Irish population?

What was the only country to actually conquer the world? It sure wasn't Germany. It was England.

England's been the worst threat to the world thoughout history.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities." — Voltaire (1694-1778)

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-09-23   11:44:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Horse (#8)

Hitchens's mother is Jewish. That explains his about face from extreme liberalism to Bush-Blair backer and apologist for Israeli war crimes.

Yes, I believe Hitchens was one of those denier folks who came to a revelation in the middle of the night (whatever) that indeed! voila! quelle surprise! he was Jewish.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-09-23   11:51:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: aristeides (#6)

During the recent Lebanon war, the Ziobots on LP tried to use the examples of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki to argue that the Israelis did nothing wrong in bombing Lebanon.

Only problem with that bot logic is that Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were cases of Nation states battling each other after a formal decleration of war. The US' current bombing campaigns are inside of nations they occupy and claim their are trying to help.

At least back in "the old days" people were more honest about these things. We didn't try to tell the Germans that the bombs falling on their heads meant we were trying to help them.

"The more I see of life, the less I fear death" - Me.

Pissed Off Janitor  posted on  2006-09-23   11:51:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: scrapper2 (#12)

Neat way for a Brit writer working in D.C. to get further writing contracts.

Katrina was America's Chernobyl.

aristeides  posted on  2006-09-23   11:52:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: YertleTurtle (#11)

If you're going back that far, better read how the Portugese and Spaniards treated the locals too.

Like the Romans before them who built good roads & aqueducts, but also enslaved entire populations, the Brits did what every big power of the time was doing. Maybe they did it a little "better".

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-23   11:53:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: aristeides (#6)

the Ziobots on LP tried to use the examples of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki to argue that the Israelis did nothing wrong in bombing Lebanon.

how callous and cold-heartd 'we' have become. because great and senseless violence was used yeaterday it is OK today.

I am struck that in the public 'debate' in our media today nobody stops to ask if it is right or wrong for us to wage wars as we do. I think that people who would ask such questions are not allowed to speak in the media. I also think that we as a people have grown very callous with the orchestrated evil events that have been occurring for so long.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-09-23   11:53:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: aristeides (#14)

Neat way for a Brit writer working in D.C. to get further writing contracts.

Extended nepotism runs high among some ethnocentric groups. I've witnessed this first hand at more than one company, unrelated to media publications.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-23   11:57:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Zoroaster (#0) (Edited)

Those who oppose violence on principle are called pacifists. Those who oppose it until its use is too little and too late, or too much and too late, should be called casuists.

ca·su·ist·ry
1 : a resolving of specific cases of conscience, duty, or conduct through interpretation of ethical principles or religious doctrine
2 : specious argument : RATIONALIZATION

Of course, Hitchens ignores the fact that Hitler was allowed to take power for a purpose. It is, therefore, Hitchens who is using subterfuge and casuistry to form an opinion which runs counter to the Law of Nations and undermines the standards of international law.

It is a proven tactic of the disinformationist to accuse your opponent of doing what you, yourself, are doing, which is Orwellian in nature.

Only in the mind of a neocon, could it be permitted to say that pre-emptive war, for which Hitler and the Nazis were condemned, is of "urgency and integrity."

Hitchens simply uses this ploy of the Klemperers as another twist in the continuing diatribe of eternal victimhood, and to push the Talmudic doctrine of eternal revenge.

Aside from the fact that Hitchens repeats the blather about the vastly underestimated number of casualties in Dresden (the count is estimated at closer to 250,000 by German officials), and the fact that POWs who were also killed (the Allies knew of their presence), there is no excuse whatsoever than to tell it the way it really is.

The bombing of German cities during the war was first instigated by the Allies, and Hitler only bombed London and other English cities as a counter to that. The bombing of German cities was terrorism, plain and simple.

And Grayling equating that with the atom bombing of Japan and the events of 9- 11 simply show that the true perps of 9-11 are those who have continually perpetrated terror campaigns against civilians in the past, all without any remorse. Reference, Operation Northwoods.

This article is nothing more than a slick piece of propaganda.

More information about the Dresden bombing, http://www.christusrex.org/www1/war/dresden6.html

I find it not so odd that this piece was posted at the Institute for Historical Review. That is very telling and exposes them as controlled opposition. It also ratifies Willis Carto's story about the armed takeover of IHR by conspirators, of which Mark Weber was one, who were controlled by the Church of Scientology, which is no church at all.

“The tendency of democracies is, in all things, to mediocrity, since the tastes, knowledge, and principles of the majority form the tribunal of appeal.” James Fenimore Cooper

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-23   12:12:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: YertleTurtle (#11)

Who was the biggest SOB, Hitler or Churchill? Churchill wins the prize. err...difficult choice but surely the answer should be Stalin?

It would be Churchill and England for the past several hundred years.

You live in Scotland, I believe? Ever heard of the Highland clearances? William Wallace?

Or how about the fact England invented the concentration camp during the Boer War? Murdered one-fourth of the Boer Population? Killed or expelled one-third of the Irish population?

What was the only country to actually conquer the world? It sure wasn't Germany. It was England.

England's been the worst threat to the world thoughout history.

umm, guilty as charged :( i'm 3/4 English and 1/4 Portuguese (and they weren't much better) and as Phil puts it, i'm only "Scottish by injection" lol.

(he tells friends that he took pity on an English heathen-woman and brought me North of the border to civilise and educate me!!!)

love

ruthie
XXXXXX
http://www.myspace.com/ruthiesb69

ruthie  posted on  2006-09-23   12:40:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: aristeides (#6)

There is a very simple formula used by American reichwingers - since the US killed mass amounts of civilians in WWII- whose absolute rightness is only questionied by Neo Nazis and America haters- it is OK to do so again anytime anywhere- and indeed- listening to talk radio- they now consider that anything short of mechanized industrial scale murder of millions of civilians to be waging a "PC war"- (never mind that the "total war" of WWII that justified such mass slaughter was an utter rejection of Christian moral values that had guided warfare in the West for a 1000 years and an embrace of statist nihilism).

I once heard a talk radio host in Boston say that he would rather every Iraqi were wiped from the face of the Earth in nuclear holocaust rather than one American soldier having his toe stubbed fighting in Iraq. Which of course begs the question (among many others) why this radio talk host thinks we even need ground pounders when apparently anything short of murdering millions of people with nukes is waging a "PC war".

He eventually got the ax I think- not for calling for mass murder (that's pretty routine on our airways)- but for saying "wetback" one too many times.

Burkeman1  posted on  2006-09-23   13:08:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: YertleTurtle (#11)

Or how about the fact England invented the concentration camp during the Boer War? Murdered one-fourth of the Boer Population? Killed or expelled one-third of the Irish population?

What was the only country to actually conquer the world? It sure wasn't Germany. It was England.

England's been the worst threat to the world thoughout history.

Debating the tactics of WWII has a utility as a means of morals clarification. But for Americans, it is really just a debate within what are deemed acceptable parameters. The question that is verboten in polite discourse, is whether the United States allied itself with the correct side. That is if one accepts the premise that US entry into WWII was imperative.

SmokinOPs  posted on  2006-09-23   13:44:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Burkeman1 (#20)

Michael Savage (Wiener):

http://mediamatters.org/items/200604190001

On his radio show, Savage told listeners that "intelligent people, wealthy people ... are very depressed by the weakness that America is showing to these psychotics in the Muslim world. They say, 'Oh, there's a billion of them.' " Savage continued: "I said, 'So, kill 100 million of them, then there'd be 900 million of them.' I mean ... would you rather us die than them?" Savage added: "Would you rather we disappear or we die? Or would you rather they disappear and they die? Because you're going to have to make that choice sooner rather than later."

Which "us" is he referring to?

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-23   13:57:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: ruthie (#19)

(he tells friends that he took pity on an English heathen-woman and brought me North of the border to civilise and educate me!!!)

By the way, my last name is Wallace. Raised in southern Illinois by way of Tenneesee, by way of West Virginia. Did my ancestors come here voluntarily or were they booted out of Scotland? No one knows. If they were booted out, someone owes me reparations. ;-)

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities." — Voltaire (1694-1778)

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-09-23   14:03:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: SmokinOPs (#21)

That is if one accepts the premise that US entry into WWII was imperative.

A) We should have stayed out and let the National and International Socialists slaughter each other.

B) We could have come in on the side of Germany and got rid of Communism, instead of letting most of Christian Eastern Europe be enslaved for 50 years by atheist Communists.

I would have voted for A). If we had stayed out, Germany, I believe, could have defeated the Soviet Union and rid the world of the Bolsheviks.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities." — Voltaire (1694-1778)

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-09-23   14:07:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: robin (#22)

Michael Savage...

is a putupjob. The guy lives in Marin county, has naked pictures of himself with Allen Ginsberg and has wrote over a dozen books on New Age cures. If you believe he actually became a rightwinger, I'll be glad to sell you the Bronx-Whitestone bridge.

SmokinOPs  posted on  2006-09-23   14:07:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: SmokinOPs (#25)

Allen Ginsberg

Pedophile.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities." — Voltaire (1694-1778)

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-09-23   14:08:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: SmokinOPs (#25)

He bills himself that way.

http://www.wor710.com/pages/46361.php

The Savage Nation

Michael Savage : The Compassionate Conservative

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/03/05/savage/index.html

"The Savage Nation" on San Francisco's KSFO 560 AM more than eight years ago, Savage has gone from being just another right-winger with a big mouth, a hyperinflated ego and a sizable chip on his shoulder to becoming the nation's fifth most-popular talk-radio personality, a host with enough leverage to land Vice President Dick Cheney as a guest. His book, "The Savage Nation: Saving America From the Liberal Assault on Our Borders, Language and Culture," has been perched at the top of the New York Times bestseller list for over a month, and now he's slated to get his own program on MSNBC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Savage_(commentator)

Michael Savage is the pseudonym of Dr. Michael Alan Weiner, PhD (born March 31, 1942). Savage is a controversial American conservative talk radio host, author, and political commentator.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-23   14:26:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: SmokinOPs, robin (#25)

If you believe he actually became a rightwinger, I'll be glad to sell you the Bronx-Whitestone bridge.

Vygen klaven genoychtenzappen?

The faster the Aryan Nation mob at Freedom4um are caged and chained, the better off we'll be. I’ll cheering when they are forced to behave. - Aaron

Dakmar  posted on  2006-09-23   15:01:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: SmokinOPs (#25)

Wiener is very bitter that he didn't get the academic position to which he thinks he was entitled by virtue of his Berkeley Ph.D. and numerous publications. He blames affirmative action.

He's probably right that affirmative action stymied his career plans, but you'd think he would have gotten over it whatever it is, 30 or 40 years later.

Katrina was America's Chernobyl.

aristeides  posted on  2006-09-23   15:04:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: aristeides, tauzero (#29)

Wiener is very bitter that he didn't get the academic position to which he thinks he was entitled by virtue of his Berkeley Ph.D. and numerous publications. He blames affirmative action.

The architects of multiculturalism never expected the former "oppressed" to reject their enablers.

The faster the Aryan Nation mob at Freedom4um are caged and chained, the better off we'll be. I’ll cheering when they are forced to behave. - Aaron

Dakmar  posted on  2006-09-23   15:11:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Dakmar (#28)

Would Dick Cheney showup on a liberal talk show?

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-23   15:17:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: robin (#31)

Not without bodyguards and a friendly studio audience.

The faster the Aryan Nation mob at Freedom4um are caged and chained, the better off we'll be. I’ll cheering when they are forced to behave. - Aaron

Dakmar  posted on  2006-09-23   15:27:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: robin (#31)

Oops, studio, that's all of us when it comes to broadcast. So because Cheney is so shy anyone who disagrees with him is trampling his right to free speech? Got it! :)

The faster the Aryan Nation mob at Freedom4um are caged and chained, the better off we'll be. I’ll cheering when they are forced to behave. - Aaron

Dakmar  posted on  2006-09-23   15:29:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: YertleTurtle (#26)

Pedophile.

Beyond that. He was instrumental in the Man/Boy Love Association. That doesn't mean his writing wasn't great, but it makes me sick to my stomach. The idea that people think they have a RIGHT to rape kiddies is too demented to even discuss, not to mention engage in serious debate. Gag.

Mekons4  posted on  2006-09-23   15:40:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: YertleTurtle (#23)

By the way, my last name is Wallace. Raised in southern Illinois by way of Tenneesee, by way of West Virginia. Did my ancestors come here voluntarily or were they booted out of Scotland? No one knows. If they were booted out, someone owes me reparations. ;-)

lol - but North America was actually settled first by the Scots long before Columbus got lost and blundered into the area in a futile search of the Indies. the Sinclairs established an outpost on the Eastern shore of the US (a tomb belonging to a Scots knight, possibly a Templar has been found there). it is believed the Scots traded and intermarried with the locals (apparently this is a National characteristic according to my dearest - Scotsmen like to drive a hard bargain and get a good f*ck whenever possible LOL).

so in a way, you are continuing the fine tradition of your forebears and should consider you are as much at home on either side of the pond :)

love

ruthie
XXXXXX
http://www.myspace.com/ruthiesb69

ruthie  posted on  2006-09-23   15:41:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: ruthie (#35)

the Sinclairs established an outpost on the Eastern shore of the US (a tomb belonging to a Scots knight, possibly a Templar has been found there).

I once saw a photo of an Algonquin chief, and if you took away the nose ring and feathers on his head, he would look much like an Irish or Scot. He had red-blonde hair and blue eyes.

“The tendency of democracies is, in all things, to mediocrity, since the tastes, knowledge, and principles of the majority form the tribunal of appeal.” James Fenimore Cooper

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-23   15:45:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: YertleTurtle (#23)

By the way, my last name is Wallace. Raised in southern Illinois by way of Tenneesee, by way of West Virginia. Did my ancestors come here voluntarily or were they booted out of Scotland? No one knows. If they were booted out, someone owes me reparations. ;-)

My very German family moved here in the 1840's and worked hard to establish themselves as large land owners. They drank it all away in the 1920's according to my dad. I can see how all this is possible.

The faster the Aryan Nation mob at Freedom4um are caged and chained, the better off we'll be. I’ll cheering when they are forced to behave. - Aaron

Dakmar  posted on  2006-09-23   15:47:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: BTP Holdings (#36)

not to denegrate native americans, but it seems likely that not only they din't all walk over on the land bridge that rose from the sea on Arpril 22, 4004 BC, but in fact some of them were getting mail from home.

The faster the Aryan Nation mob at Freedom4um are caged and chained, the better off we'll be. I’ll cheering when they are forced to behave. - Aaron

Dakmar  posted on  2006-09-23   15:50:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: ruthie (#35)

(apparently this is a National characteristic according to my dearest - Scotsmen like to drive a hard bargain and get a good f*ck whenever possible LOL).

lol!

I've said before that the one thing the imperialist British colonies proved, the Brits will f*ck anybody.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-23   15:54:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: ruthie (#35)

I was born in Scotland, but left early in life. Scots can be given a lot of credit for a lot of things in the U.S., foremost among them being half-responsible for what we consider blues, country and folk music. When slaves arrived somewhat later, they brought their musical traditions with them, but not their instruments, so they ended up adopting Scots instruments and some of their musical traditions. That mess became, eventually, rock and roll.

We tend to think of the Brits as the earliest settlers, but half of them ran back to England. The Scots took over some of the worst places in the country to keep the Brits out of their hair, and they still live there many, many generations later.

Mekons4  posted on  2006-09-23   15:57:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Mekons4 (#40)

The Scots took over some of the worst places in the country to keep the Brits out of their hair, and they still live there many, many generations later.

The settled areas were already taken first by the English and Dutch colonists, then the Germans in PA. The Frontier of VA, which became KY, and beyond was one of the few choices for a Scots/Irish with nothing but his flax-weaving tools. Unfortunately, the Scots were not very good to the local population and vice versa. About 250,000 so-called Scotch/Irish left the Ulster Plantation for America in the late 1600s and the same # poured through the Cumberland Gap not long after that. Most Americans of Scottish heritage are of Scotch/Irish extraction. They are not really Irish, but King James found a spot for his people in Northern Ireland, where they've caused trouble ever since. In fact, some of the German Palatinates (Protestants escaping Catholic persecution during the 30 Years War) ended up on Ulster too. The British Crown did not always grant entry into the colonies, but some were allowed into Ulster.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-23   16:03:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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