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Title: Please, All Freedom4umers, Give Me Your Opinions
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Published: Sep 24, 2006
Author: blah
Post Date: 2006-09-24 08:53:09 by Nintendo of the Gods
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Views: 698
Comments: 39
I have recently come into contact with a religious sect that preaches that, basically, people become "guardian Angels" after their body dies. And then they have to go around and perform routine maintenance on families', and others' pathetic lives, helping them with troubles. I'm not sure that I want to hang around dead relatives and descendants all day. Since I'm not too sharp on the Bible, can anybody fill me in with verses as to why there are no "Guardian Angels"? So that I may use said verses in my argument? I know there are some Bible geniuses here. Please help a religious illiterate.
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#1. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
Should that be the case, never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly.
In 1947, the UN created a perpetual war and named it Israel.
entirely plausible theory
My family is too much trouble when I'm alive. I sure don't want to hang with them when I'm dead.
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities." — Voltaire (1694-1778)
just out of curiosity, why do you want to argue with these folks? do you think that their belief systems define the reality of your life? what do you hold as the theory of afterlife?
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking." -- Bloch
Why is it important to you? Yes, there are angels that do help people. But I know of no scripture in the bible that says they are former humans that are doing this.
God is always good! I was offered that job, among others, at one time. Eventually, I accepted an assignment as a forum member.
Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'
Thank all of you for your responses. Angle, just out of curiosity, why do you want to argue with these folks? do you think that their belief systems define the reality of your life? what do you hold as the theory of afterlife? I'm still trying to figure that part out. RickyJ: Why is it important to you? Yes, there are angels that do help people. But I know of no scripture in the bible that says they are former humans that are doing this. See, that's more what I'm looking for. "I was offered that job, among others, at one time. Eventually, I accepted and assignment as a forum member." vast conspirator, humorous as ever ever, but always on the mark. Only trouble is, I can't figure out what this mark means. Thanks, though. I think you boys have told me all I need to know.
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking." -- Bloch
I heard that if you led a good life you were released from earthly things at death. If you did not lead a good life you were re-incarnated as Goldi-Lox's toilet seat.
ROFL!
Globalization is the crucifiction of civilization. randge posted on 2006-09-23http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=35452&Disp=81#C81 "Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities." — Voltaire (1694-1778)
While there are indeed guardian angels, they are not human. The people who told you this are mistaken. Angels are spiritual beings whom the Lord made separately, just as a dog is different from a cat. href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm">http://www.newadvent.org/cathe n/01476d.htm (Latin angelus; Greek aggelos; from the Hebrew for "one going" or "one sent"; messenger). The word is used in Hebrew to denote indifferently either a divine or human messenger. The Septuagint renders it by aggelos which also has both significations. The Latin version, however, distinguishes the divine or spirit- messenger from the human, rendering the original in the one case by angelus and in the other by legatus or more generally by nuntius. In a few passages the Latin version is misleading, the word angelus being used where nuntius would have better expressed the meaning, e.g. Isaiah 18:2; 33:3, 6. It is with the spirit-messenger alone that we are here concerned. We have to discuss the meaning of the term in the Bible, the offices of the angels, the names assigned to the angels, the distinction between good and evil spirits, the divisions of the angelic choirs, the question of angelic appearances, and the development of the scriptural idea of angels. The angels are represented throughout the Bible as a body of spiritual beings intermediate between God and men: "You have made him (man) a little less than the angels" (Psalm 8:6). They, equally with man, are created beings; "praise ye Him, all His angels: praise ye Him, all His hosts . . . for He spoke and they were made. He commanded and they were created" (Psalm 148:2, 5; Colossians 1:16- 17). That the angels were created was laid down in the Fourth Lateran Council (1215). The decree "Firmiter" against the Albigenses declared both the fact that they were created and that men were created after them. This decree was repeated by the Vatican Council, "Dei Filius". We mention it here because the words: "He that liveth for ever created all things together" (Ecclesiasticus 18:1) have been held to prove a simultaneous creation of all things; but it is generally conceded that "together" (simul) may here mean "equally", in the sense that all things were "alike" created. They are spirits; the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews says: "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to minister to them who shall receive the inheritance of salvation?" (Heb. i, 14). Attendants at God's throne It is as messengers that they most often figure in the Bible, but, as St. Augustine, and after him St. Gregory, expresses it: angelus est nomen officii ("angel is the name of the office") and expresses neither their essential nature nor their essential function, viz.: that of attendants upon God's throne in that court of heaven of which Daniel has left us a vivid picture: I behold till thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days sat: His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like clean wool: His throne like flames of fire: the wheels of it like a burning fire. A swift stream of fire issued forth from before Him: thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and ten thousand times a hundred thousand stood before Him: the judgment sat and the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10; cf. also Psalm 96:7; Psalm 102:20; Isaiah 6, etc.) This function of the angelic host is expressed by the word "assistance" (Job 1:6; 2:1), and our Lord refers to it as their perpetual occupation (Matthew 18:10). More than once we are told of seven angels whose special function it is thus to "stand before God's throne" (Tobit 12:15; Revelation 8:2- 5). The same thought may be intended by "the angel of His presence" (Isaiah 63:9) an expression which also occurs in the pseudo-epigraphical "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs". God's messengers to mankind But these glimpses of life beyond the veil are only occasional. The angels of the Bible generally appear in the role of God's messengers to mankind. They are His instruments by whom He communicates His will to men, and in Jacob's vision they are depicted as ascending and descending the ladder which stretches from earth to heaven while the Eternal Father gazes upon the wanderer below. It was an angel who found Agar in the wilderness (Genesis 16); angels drew Lot out of Sodom; an angel announces to Gideon that he is to save his people; an angel foretells the birth of Samson (Judges 13), and the angel Gabriel instructs Daniel (Dan., viii, 16), though he is not called an angel in either of these passages, but "the man Gabriel" (9:21). The same heavenly spirit announced the birth of St. John the Baptist and the Incarnation of the Redeemer, while tradition ascribes to him both the message to the shepherds (Luke 2:9), and the most glorious mission of all, that of strengthening the King of Angels in His Agony (Luke 22:43). The spiritual nature of the angels is manifested very clearly in the account which Zacharias gives of the revelations bestowed upon him by the ministry of an angel. The prophet depicts the angel as speaking "in him". He seems to imply that he was conscious of an interior voice which was not that of God but of His messenger. The Massoretic text, the Septuagint, and the Vulgate all agree in thus describing the communications made by the angel to the prophet. It is a pity that the "Revised Version" should, in apparent defiance of the above-named texts, obscure this trait by persistently giving the rendering: "the angel that talked with me: instead of "within me" (cf. Zechariah 1:9, 13, 14; 2:3; 4:5; 5:10). Such appearances of angels generally last only so long as the delivery of their message requires, but frequently their mission is prolonged, and they are represented as the constituted guardians of the nations at some particular crisis, e.g. during the Exodus (Exodus 14:19; Baruch 6:6). Similarly it is the common view of the Fathers that by "the prince of the Kingdom of the Persians" (Dan., x, 13; x, 21) we are to understand the angel to whom was entrusted the spiritual care of that kingdom, and we may perhaps see in the "man of Macedonia" who appeared to St. Paul at Troas, the guardian angel of that country (Acts 16:9). The Septuagint (Deuteronomy 32:8), has preserved for us a fragment of information on this head, though it is difficult to gauge its exact meaning: "When the Most High divided the nations, when He scattered the children of Adam, He established the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God". How large a part the ministry of angels played, not merely in Hebrew theology, but in the religious ideas of other nations as well, appears from the expression "like to an angel of God". It is three times used of David (2 Samuel 14:17, 20; 14:27) and once by Achis of Geth (1 Samuel 29:9). It is even applied by Esther to Assuerus (Esther 15:16), and St. Stephen's face is said to have looked "like the face of an angel" as he stood before the Sanhedrin (Acts 6:15). Personal guardians Throughout the Bible we find it repeatedly implied that each individual soul has its tutelary angel. Thus Abraham, when sending his steward to seek a wife for Isaac, says: "He will send His angel before thee" (Genesis 24:7). The words of the ninetieth Psalm which the devil quoted to our Lord (Matthew 4:6) are well known, and Judith accounts for her heroic deed by saying: "As the Lord liveth, His angel hath been my keeper" (xiii, 20). These passages and many like them (Genesis 16:6-32; Hosea 12:4; 1 Kings 19:5; Acts 12:7; Psalm 33:8), though they will not of themselves demonstrate the doctrine that every individual has his appointed guardian angel, receive their complement in our Saviour's words: "See that you despise not on of these little ones; for I say to you that their angels in Heaven always see the face of My Father Who is in Heaven" (Matthew 18:10), words which illustrate the remark of St. Augustine: "What lies hidden in the Old Testament, is made manifest in the New". Indeed, the book of Tobias seems intended to teach this truth more than any other, and St. Jerome in his commentary on the above words of our Lord says: "The dignity of a soul is so great, that each has a guardian angel from its birth." The general doctrine that the angels are our appointed guardians is considered to be a point of faith, but that each individual member of the human race has his own individual guardian angel is not of faith (de fide); the view has, however, such strong support from the Doctors of the Church that it would be rash to deny it (cf. St. Jerome, supra). Peter the Lombard (Sentences, lib. II, dist. xi) was inclined to think that one angel had charge of several individual human beings. St. Bernard's beautiful homilies (11-14) on the ninetieth Psalm breathe the spirit of the Church without however deciding the question. The Bible represents the angels not only as our guardians, but also as actually interceding for us. "The angel Raphael (Tob., xii, 12) says: "I offered thy prayer to the Lord" (cf. Job, v, 1 (Septuagint), and 33:23 (Vulgate); Apocalypse 8:4). The Catholic cult of the angels is thus thoroughly scriptural. Perhaps the earliest explicit declaration of it is to be found in St. Ambrose's words: "We should pray to the angels who are given to us as guardians" (De Viduis, ix); (cf. St. Aug., Contra Faustum, xx, 21). An undue cult of angels was reprobated by St. Paul (Colossians 2:18), and that such a tendency long remained in the same district is evidenced by Canon 35 of the Synod of Laodicea. As Divine Agents Governing The World The foregoing passages, especially those relating to the angels who have charge of various districts, enable us to understand the practically unanimous view of the Fathers that it is the angels who put into execution God's law regarding the physical world. The Semitic belief in genii and in spirits which cause good or evil is well known, and traces of it are to be found in the Bible. Thus the pestilence which devastated Israel for David's sin in numbering the people is attributed to an angel whom David is said to have actually seen (2 Samuel 24:15- 17), and more explicitly, I Par., xxi, 14-18). Even the wind rustling in the tree-tops was regarded as an angel (2 Samuel 5:23, 24; 1 Chronicles 14:14, 15). This is more explicitly stated with regard to the pool of Probatica (John 5:1- 4), though these is some doubt about the text; in that passage the disturbance of the water is said to be due to the periodic visits of an angel. The Semites clearly felt that all the orderly harmony of the universe, as well as interruptions of that harmony, were due to God as their originator, but were carried out by His ministers. This view is strongly marked in the "Book of Jubilees" where the heavenly host of good and evil angels is every interfering in the material universe. Maimonides (Directorium Perplexorum, iv and vi) is quoted by St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theol., I:1:3) as holding that the Bible frequently terms the powers of nature angels, since they manifest the omnipotence of God (cf. St. Jerome, In Mich., vi, 1, 2; P. L., iv, col. 1206). Hierarchical organization Though the angels who appear in the earlier works of the Old Testament are strangely impersonal and are overshadowed by the importance of the message they bring or the work they do, there are not wanting hints regarding the existence of certain ranks in the heavenly army. After Adam's fall Paradise is guarded against our First Parents by cherubim who are clearly God's ministers, though nothing is said of their nature. Only once again do the cherubim figure in the Bible, viz., in Ezechiel's marvellous vision, where they are described at great length (Ezekiel 1), and are actually called cherub in Ezechiel, x. The Ark was guarded by two cherubim, but we are left to conjecture what they were like. It has been suggested with great probability that we have their counterpart in the winged bulls and lions guarding the Assyrian palaces, and also in the strange winged men with hawks' heads who are depicted on the walls of some of their buildings. The seraphim appear only in the vision of Isaias, vi, 6. Mention has already been made of the mystic seven who stand before God, and we seem to have in them an indication of an inner cordon that surrounds the throne. The term archangel occurs only in St. Jude and I Thess., iv, 15; but St. Paul has furnished us with two other lists of names of the heavenly cohorts. He tells us (Ephesians 1:21) that Christ is raised up "above all principality, and power, and virtue, and dominion"; and, writing to the Colossians (i, 16), he says: "In Him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominations, or principalities or powers." It is to be noted that he uses two of these names of the powers of darkness when (ii, 15) he talks of Christ as "despoiling the principalities and powers . . . triumphing over them in Himself". And it is not a little remarkable that only two verses later he warns his readers not to be seduced into any "religion of angels". He seems to put his seal upon a certain lawful angelology, and at the same time to warn them against indulging superstition on the subject. We have a hint of such excesses in the Book of Enoch, wherein, as already stated, the angels play a quite disproportionate part. Similarly Josephus tells us (Be. Jud., II, viii, 7) that the Essenes had to take a vow to preserve the names of the angels. We have already seen how (Daniel 10:12-21) various districts are allotted to various angels who are termed their princes, and the same feature reappears still more markedly in the Apocalyptic "angels of the seven churches", though it is impossible to decide what is the precise signification of the term. These seven Angels of the Churches are generally regarded as being the Bishops occupying these sees. St. Gregory Nazianzen in his address to the Bishops at Constantinople twice terms them "Angels", in the language of the Apocalypse. The treatise "De Coelesti Hierarchia", which is ascribed to St. Denis the Areopagite, and which exercised so strong an influence upon the Scholastics, treats at great length of the hierarchies and orders of the angels. It is generally conceded that this work was not due to St. Denis, but must date some centuries later. Though the doctrine it contains regarding the choirs of angels has been received in the Church with extraordinary unanimity, no proposition touching the angelic hierarchies is binding on our faith. The following passages from St. Gregory the Great (Hom. 34, In Evang.) will give us a clear idea of the view of the Church's doctors on the point: We know on the authority of Scripture that there are nine orders of angels, viz., Angels, Archangels, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Dominations, Throne, Cherubim and Seraphim. That there are Angels and Archangels nearly every page of the Bible tell us, and the books of the Prophets talk of Cherubim and Seraphim. St. Paul, too, writing to the Ephesians enumerates four orders when he says: 'above all Principality, and Power, and Virtue, and Domination'; and again, writing to the Colossians he says: 'whether Thrones, or Dominations, or Principalities, or Powers'. If we now join these two lists together we have five Orders, and adding Angels and Archangels, Cherubim and Seraphim, we find nine Orders of Angels. St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:108), following St. Denis (De Coelesti Hierarchia, vi, vii), divides the angels into three hierarchies each of which contains three orders. Their proximity to the Supreme Being serves as the basis of this division. In the first hierarchy he places the Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones; in the second, the Dominations, Virtues, and Powers; in the third, the Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. The only Scriptural names furnished of individual angels are Raphael, Michael, and Gabriel, names which signify their respective attributes. Apocryphal Jewish books, such as the Book of Enoch, supply those of Uriel and Jeremiel, while many are found in other apocryphal sources, like those Milton names in "Paradise Lost". (On superstitious use of such names, see above). The number of angels The number of the angels is frequently stated as prodigious (Daniel 7:10; Apocalypse 5:11; Psalm 67:18; Matthew 26:53). From the use of the word host (sabaoth) as a synonym for the heavenly army it is hard to resist the impression that the term "Lord of Hosts" refers to God's Supreme command of the angelic multitude (cf. Deuteronomy 33:2; 32:43; Septuagint). The Fathers see a reference to the relative numbers of men and angels in the parable of the hundred sheep (Luke 15:1-3), though this may seem fanciful. The Scholastics, again, following the treatise "De Coelesti Hierarchia" of St. Denis, regard the preponderance of numbers as a necessary perfection of the angelic host (cf. St. Thomas, Summa Theol., I:1:3). The evil angels The distinction of good and bad angels constantly appears in the Bible, but it is instructive to note that there is no sign of any dualism or conflict between two equal principles, one good and the other evil. The conflict depicted is rather that waged on earth between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of the Evil One, but the latter's inferiority is always supposed. The existence, then, of this inferior, and therefore created, spirit, has to be explained. The gradual development of Hebrew consciousness on this point is very clearly marked in the inspired writings. The account of the fall of our First Parents (Genesis 3) is couched in such terms that it is impossible to see in it anything more than the acknowledgment of the existence of a principle of evil who was jealous of the human race. The statement (Genesis 6:1) that the "sons of God" married the daughters of men is explained of the fall of the angels, in Enoch, vi-xi, and codices, D, E F, and A of the Septuagint read frequently, for "sons of God", oi aggeloi tou theou. Unfortunately, codices B and C are defective in Ge., vi, but it is probably that they, too, read oi aggeloi in this passage, for they constantly so render the expression "sons of God"; cf. Job, i, 6; ii, 1; xxxviii, 7; but on the other hand, see Ps., ii, 1; lxxxviii, & (Septuagint). Philo, in commenting on the passage in his treatise "Quod Deus sit immutabilis", i, follows the Septuagint. For Philo's doctrine of Angels, cf. "De Vita Mosis", iii, 2, "De Somniis", VI: "De Incorrupta Manna", i; "De Sacrificis", ii; "De Lege Allegorica", I, 12; III, 73; and for the view of Gen., vi, 1, cf. St. Justin, Apol., ii 5. It should moreover be noted that the Hebrew word nephilim rendered gigantes, in 6:4, may mean "fallen ones". The Fathers generally refer it to the sons of Seth, the chosen stock. In I K., xix, 9, an evil spirit is said to possess Saul, though this is probably a metaphorical expression; more explicit is III B., xxii, 19-23, where a spirit is depicted as appearing in the midst of the heavenly army and offering, at the Lord's invitation, to be a lying spirit in the mouth of Achab's false prophets. We might, with Scholastics, explain this is malum poenae, which is actually caused by God owing to man's fault. A truer exegesis would, however, dwell on the purely imaginative tone of the whole episode; it is not so much the mould in which the message is cast as the actual tenor of that message which is meant to occupy our attention. The picture afforded us in Job, i and ii, is equally imaginative; but Satan, perhaps the earliest individualization of the fallen Angel, is presented as an intruder who is jealous of Job. He is clearly an inferior being to the Deity and can only touch Job with God's permission. How theologic thought advanced as the sum of revelation grew appears from a comparison of II K, xxiv, 1, with I Paral., xxi, 1. Whereas in the former passage David's sin was said to be due to "the wrath of the Lord" which "stirred up David", in the latter we read that "Satan moved David to number Israel". In Job. iv, 18, we seem to find a definite declaration of the fall: "In His angels He found wickedness." The Septuagint of Job contains some instructive passages regarding avenging angels in whom we are perhaps to see fallen spirits, thus xxxiii, 23: "If a thousand death-dealing angels should be (against him) not one of them shall wound him"; and xxxvi, 14: "If their souls should perish in their youth (through rashness) yet their life shall be wounded by the angels"; and xxi, 15: "The riches unjustly accumulated shall be vomited up, an angel shall drag him out of his house;" cf. Prov., xvii, 11; Ps., xxxiv, 5, 6; lxxvii, 49, and especially, Ecclesiasticus, xxxix, 33, a text which, as far as can be gathered from the present state of the manuscript, was in the Hebrew original. In some of these passages, it is true, the angels may be regarded as avengers of God's justice without therefore being evil spirits. In Zach., iii, 1-3, Satan is called the adversary who pleads before the Lord against Jesus the High Priest. Isaias, xiv, and Ezech., xxviii, are for the Fathers the loci classici regarding the fall of Satan (cf. Tertull., adv. Marc., II, x); and Our Lord Himself has given colour to this view by using the imagery of the latter passage when saying to His Apostles: "I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven" (Luke 10:18). In New Testament times the idea of the two spiritual kingdoms is clearly established. The devil is a fallen angel who in his fall has drawn multitudes of the heavenly host in his train. Our Lord terms him "the Prince of this world" (John xiv, 30); he is the tempter of the human race and tries to involve them in his fall (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Ephesians 6:12; 2 Corinthians 11:14; 12:7). Christian imagery of the devil as the dragon is mainly derived from the Apocalypse (ix, 11-15; xii, 7-9), where he is termed "the angel of the bottomless pit", "the dragon", "the old serpent", etc., and is represented as having actually been in combat with Archangel Michael. The similarity between scenes such as these and the early Babylonian accounts of the struggle between Merodach and the dragon Tiamat is very striking. Whether we are to trace its origin to vague reminiscences of the mighty saurians which once people the earth is a moot question, but the curious reader may consult Bousett, "The Anti- Christ Legend" (tr. by Keane, London, 1896). The translator has prefixed to it an interesting discussion on the origin of the Babylonian Dragon-Myth. The Term "Angel" In The Septuagint We have had occasion to mention the Septuagint version more than once, and it may not be amiss to indicate a few passages where it is our only source of information regarding the angels. The best known passage is Is., ix, 6, where the Septuagint gives the name of the Messias, as "the Angel of great Counsel". We have already drawn attention to Job, xx, 15, where the Septuagint reads "Angel" instead of "God", and to xxxvi, 14, where there seems to be question of evil angels. In ix 7, Septuagint (B) adds: "He is the Hebrew (v, 19) say of "Behemoth": "He is the beginning of the ways of God, he that made him shall make his sword to approach him:, the Septuagint reads: "He is the beginning of God's creation, made for His Angels to mock at", and exactly the same remark is made about "Leviathan", xli, 24. We have already seen that the Septuagint generally renders the term "sons of God" by "angels", but in Deut., xxxii, 43, the Septuagint has an addition in which both terms appear: "Rejoice in Him all ye heavens, and adore Him all ye angels of God; rejoice ye nations with His people, and magnify Him all ye Sons of God." Nor does the Septuagint merely give us these additional references to angels; it sometimes enables us to correct difficult passages concerning them in the Vulgate and Massoretic text. Thus the difficult Elim of MT in Job, xli, 17, which the Vulgate renders by "angels", becomes "wild beasts" in the Septuagint version. The early ideas as to the personality of the various angelic appearances are, as we have seen, remarkably vague. At first the angels are regarded in quite an impersonal way (Genesis 16:7). They are God's vice-regents and are often identified with the Author of their message (Genesis 48:15-16). But while we read of "the Angels of God" meeting Jacob (Genesis 32:1) we at other times read of one who is termed "the Angel of God" par excellence, e.g. Gen., xxxi, 11. It is true that, owing to the Hebrew idiom, this may mean no more than "an angel of God", and the Septuagint renders it with or without the article at will; yet the three visitors at Mambre seem to have been of different ranks, though St. Paul (Hebrews 13:2) regarded them all as equally angels; as the story in Ge., xiii, develops, the speaker is always "the Lord". Thus in the account of the Angel of the Lord who visited Gideon (Judges 6), the visitor is alternately spoken of as "the Angel of the Lord" and as "the Lord". Similarly, in Judges, xiii, the Angel of the Lord appears, and both Manue and his wife exclaim: "We shall certainly die because we have seen God." This want of clearness is particularly apparent in the various accounts of the Angel of Exodus. In Judges, vi, just now referred to, the Septuagint is very careful to render the Hebrew "Lord" by "the Angel of the Lord"; but in the story of the Exodus it is the Lord who goes before them in the pillar of a cloud (Exodus 13:21), and the Septuagint makes no change (cf. also Num., xiv, 14, and Neh., ix, 7-20. Yet in Exod., xiv, 19, their guide is termed "the Angel of God". When we turn to Exod., xxxiii, where God is angry with His people for worshipping the golden calf, it is hard not to feel that it is God Himself who has hitherto been their guide, but who now refuses to accompany them any longer. God offers an angel instead, but at Moses's petition He says (14) "My face shall go before thee", which the Septuagint reads by autos though the following verse shows that this rendering is clearly impossible, for Moses objects: "If Thou Thyself dost not go before us, bring us not out of this place." But what does God mean by "my face"? Is it possible that some angel of specially high rank is intended, as in Is., lxiii, 9 (cf. Tobias, xii, 15)? May not this be what is meant by "the angel of God" (cf. Numbers 20:16)? That a process of evolution in theological thought accompanied the gradual unfolding of God's revelation need hardly be said, but it is especially marked in the various views entertained regarding the person of the Giver of the Law. The Massoretic text as well as the Vulgate of Exod., iii and xix-xx clearly represent the Supreme Being as appearing to Moses in the bush and on Mount Sinai; but the Septuagint version, while agreeing that it was God Himself who gave the Law, yet makes it "the angel of the Lord" who appeared in the bush. By New Testament times the Septuagint view has prevailed, and it is now not merely in the bush that the angel of the Lord, and not God Himself appears, but the angel is also the Giver of the Law (cf. Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2; Acts 7:30). The person of "the angel of the Lord" finds a counterpart in the personification of Wisdom in the Sapiential books and in at least one passage (Zechariah 3:1) it seems to stand for that "Son of Man" whom Daniel (vii, 13) saw brought before "the Ancient of Days". Zacharias says: "And the Lord showed me Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan stood on His right hand to be His adversary". Tertullian regards many of these passages as preludes to the Incarnation; as the Word of God adumbrating the sublime character in which He is one day to reveal Himself to men (cf. adv, Prax., xvi; adv. Marc., II, 27; III, 9: I, 10, 21, 22). It is possible, then, that in these confused views we can trace vague gropings after certain dogmatic truths regarding the Trinity, reminiscences perhaps of the early revelation of which the Protevangelium in Ge., iii is but a relic. The earlier Fathers, going by the letter of the text, maintained that it was actually God Himself who appeared. he who appeared was called God and acted as God. It was not unnatural then for Tertullian, as we have already seen, to regard such manifestations in the light of preludes to the Incarnation, and most of the Eastern Fathers followed the same line of thought. It was held as recently as 1851 by Vandenbroeck, "Dissertatio Theologica de Theophaniis sub Veteri Testamento" (Louvain). But the great Latins, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, and St. Gregory the Great, held the opposite view, and the Scholastics as a body followed them. St. Augustine (Sermo vii, de Scripturis, P. G. V) when treating of the burning bush (Exodus 3) says: "That the same person who spoke to Moses should be deemed both the Lord and an angel of the Lord, is very hard to understand. It is a question which forbids any rash assertions but rather demands careful investigation . . . Some maintain that he is called both the Lord and the angel of the Lord because he was Christ, indeed the prophet (Isaiah 9:6, Septuagint Version) clearly styles Christ the 'Angel of great Counsel.'" The saint proceeds to show that such a view is tenable though we must be careful not to fall into Arianism in stating it. He points out, however, that if we hold that it was an angel who appeared, we must explain how he came to be called "the Lord," and he proceeds to show how this might be: "Elsewhere in the Bible when a prophet speaks it is yet said to be the Lord who speaks, not of course because the prophet is the Lord but because the Lord is in the prophet; and so in the same way when the Lord condescends to speak through the mouth of a prophet or an angel, it is the same as when he speaks by a prophet or apostle, and the angel is correctly termed an angel if we consider him himself, but equally correctly is he termed 'the Lord' because God dwells in him." He concludes: "It is the name of the indweller, not of the temple." And a little further on: "It seems to me that we shall most correctly say that our forefathers recognized the Lord in the angel," and he adduces the authority of the New Testament writers who clearly so understood it and yet sometimes allowed the same confusion of terms (cf. Hebrews 2:2, and Acts 7:31-33). The saint discusses the same question even more elaborately, "In Heptateuchum," lib. vii, 54, P. G. III, 558. As an instance of how convinced some of the Fathers were in holding the opposite view, we may note Theodoret's words (In Exod.): "The whole passage (Exodus 3) shows that it was God who appeared to him. But (Moses) called Him an angel in order to let us know that it was not God the Father whom he saw -- for whose angel could the Father be? -- but the Only-begotten Son, the Angel of great Counsel" (cf. Eusebius, Hist. Eccles., I, ii, 7; St. Irenaeus, Haer., iii, 6). But the view propounded by the Latin Fathers was destined to live in the Church, and the Scholastics reduced it to a system (cf. St. Thomas, Quaest., Disp., De Potentia, vi, 8, ad 3am); and for a very good exposition of both sides of the question, cf. "Revue biblique," 1894, 232-247. Angels In Babylonian Literature The Bible has shown us that a belief in angels, or spirits intermediate between God and man, is a characteristic of the Semitic people. It is therefore interesting to trace this belief in the Semites of Babylonia. According to Sayce (The Religions of Ancient Egypt and Babylonia, Gifford Lectures, 1901), the engrafting of Semitic beliefs on the earliest Sumerian religion of Babylonia is marked by the entrance of angels or sukallin in their theosophy. Thus we find an interesting parallel to "the angels of the Lord" in Nebo, "the minister of Merodach" (ibid., 355). He is also termed the "angel" or interpreter of the will or Merodach (ibid., 456), and Sayce accepts Hommel's statement that it can be shown from the Minean inscriptions that primitive Semitic religion consisted of moon and star worship, the moon-god Athtar and an "angel" god standing at the head of the pantheon (ibid., 315). The Biblical conflict between the kingdoms of good and evil finds its parallel in the "spirits of heaven" or the Igigi--who constituted the "host" of which Ninip was the champion (and from who he received the title of "chief of the angels") and the "spirits of the earth", or Annuna-Ki, who dwelt in Hades (ibid. 355). The Babylonian sukalli corresponded to the spirit-messengers of the Bible; they declared their Lord's will and executed his behests (ibid., 361). Some of them appear to have been more than messengers; they were the interpreters and vicegerents of the supreme deity, thus Nebo is "the prophet of Borsippa". These angels are even termed "the sons" of the deity whose vicegerents they are; thus Ninip, at one time the messenger of En-lil, is transformed into his son just as Merodach becomes the son of Ea (ibid., 496). The Babylonian accounts of the Creation and the Flood do not contrast very favourably with the Biblical accounts, and the same must be said of the chaotic hierarchies of gods and angels which modern research has revealed. perhaps we are justified in seeing all forms of religion vestiges of a primitive nature-worship which has at times succeeded in debasing the purer revelation, and which, where that primitive revelation has not received successive increments as among the Hebrews, results in an abundant crop of weeds. Thus the Bible certainly sanctions the idea of certain angels being in charge of special districts (cf. Dan., x, and above). This belief persists in a debased form in the Arab notion of Genii, or Jinns, who haunt particular spots. A reference to it is perhaps to be found in Gen., xxxii, 1,2: "Jacob also went on the journey he had begun: and the angels of God met him: And when he saw then he said: These are the camps of God, and he called the name of that place Mahanaim, that is, 'Camps.' " Recent explorations in the Arab district about Petra have revealed certain precincts marked off with stones as the abiding- laces of angels, and the nomad tribes frequent them for prayer and sacrifice. These places bear a name which corresponds exactly with the "Mahanaim" of the above passage in Genesis (cf. Lagrange, Religions Semitques, 184, and Robertson Smith, Religion of the Semites, 445). Jacob's vision at Bethel (Genesis 28:12) may perhaps come under the same category. Suffice it to say that not everything in the Bible is revelation, and that the object of the inspired writings is not merely to tell us new truths but also to make clearer certain truths taught us by nature. The modern view, which tends to regard everything Babylonian as absolutely primitive and which seems to think that because critics affix a late date to the Biblical writings the religion therein contained must also be late, may be seen in Haag, "Theologie Biblique" (339). This writer sees in the Biblical angels only primitive deities debased into demi-gods by the triumphant progress of Monotheism. Angels in the Zend-Avesta Attempts have also been made to trace a connection between the angels of the Bible and the "great archangels" or "Amesha-Spentas" of the Zend-Avesta. That the Persian domination and the Babylonian captivity exerted a large influence upon the Hebrew conception of the angels is acknowledged in the Talmud of Jerusalem, Rosch Haschanna, 56, where it is said that the names of the angels were introduced from Babylon. It is, however, by no means clear that the angelic beings who figure so largely in the pages of the Avesta are to be referred to the older Persian Neo-Zoroastrianism of the Sassanides. If this be the case, as Darmesteter holds, we should rather reverse the position and attribute the Zoroastrian angels to the influence of the Bible and of Philo. Stress has been laid upon the similarity between the Biblical "seven who stand before God" and the seven Amesha-Spentas of the Zend-Avesta. But it must be noted that these latter are really six, the number seven is only obtained by counting "their father, Ahura-Mazda," among them as their chief. Moreover, these Zoroastrian archangels are more abstract that concrete; they are not individuals charged with weighty missions as in the Bible. Angels in the New Testament Hitherto we have dwelt almost exclusively on the angels of the Old Testament, whose visits and messages have been by no means rare; but when we come to the New Testament their name appears on every page and the number of references to them equals those in the Old Dispensation. It is their privilege to announce the Zachary and Mary the dawn of Redemption, and to the shepherds its actual accomplishment. Our Lord in His discourses talks of them as one who actually saw them, and who, whilst "conversing amongst men", was yet receiving the silent unseen adoration of the hosts of heaven. He describes their life in heaven (Matthew 22:30; Luke 20:36); He tell us how they form a bodyguard round Him and at a word from Him would avenge Him on His enemies (Matthew 26:53); it is the privilege of one of them to assist Him in His Agony and sweat of Blood. More than once He speaks of them as auxiliaries and witnesses at the final judgment (Matthew 16:27), which indeed they will prepare (ibid., xiii, 39-49); and lastly, they are the joyous witnesses of His triumphant Resurrection (ibid., xxviii, 2). It is easy for skeptical minds to see in these angelic hosts the mere play of Hebrew fancy and the rank growth of superstition, but do not the records of the angels who figure in the Bible supply a most natural and harmonious progression? In the opening page of the sacred story of the Jewish nation is chose out from amongst others as the depositary of God's promise; as the people from whose stock He would one day raise up a Redeemer. The angels appear in the course of this chosen people's history, now as God's messengers, now as that people's guides; at one time they are the bestowers of God's law, at another they actually prefigure the Redeemer Whose divine purpose they are helping to mature. They converse with His prophets, with David and Elias, with Daniel and Zacharias; they slay the hosts camped against Israel, they serve as guides to God's servants, and the last prophet, Malachi, bears a name of peculiar significance; "the Angel of Jehovah." He seems to sum up in his very name the previous "ministry by the hands of angels", as though God would thus recall the old-time glories of the Exodus and Sinai. The Septuagint, indeed, seems not to know his name as that of an individual prophet and its rendering of the opening verse of his prophecy is peculiarly solemn: "The burden of the Word of the Lord of Israel by the hand of His angel; lay it up in your hearts." All this loving ministry on the part of the angels is solely for the sake of the Saviour, on Whose face they desire to look. Hence when the fullness of time was arrived it is they who bring the glad message, and sing "Gloria in excelsis Deo." They guide the newborn King of Angels in His hurried flight into Egypt, and minister to Him in the desert. His second coming and the dire events that must precede that, are revealed to His chosen servant in the island of Patmos, It is a question of revelation again, and consequently its ministers and messengers of old appear once more in the sacred story and the record of God's revealing love ends fittingly almost as it had begun: "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches" (Revelation 22:16). It is easy for the student to trace the influence of surrounding nations and of other religions in the Biblical account of the angels. Indeed it is needful and instructive to do so, but it would be wrong to shut our eyes to the higher line of development which we have shown and which brings out so strikingly the marvellous unity and harmony of the whole divine story of the Bible
How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments. Benjamin Franklin
Does this sect have a name?
Best advice I ever had... "Never let any person come between you and your God"..
With a due respect to Fibr Dog's research, I must interject that scripture is subject to interpretation. The perspectives on angels, afterlife, this life, pastlife, now etc are many. As we see in government corruption, religious dogma is also subject to the character of those making pronouncements. As such, it is fallible. Therefore, don't limit yourself to groups whose words don't resonate. In each of us is the voice of truth.
this has always been my understanding as well.
It wasn't my research, as I did nothing more than cut and paste from another website which gave a Catholic perspective on angels, along with the appropriate scripture to back up that perspective. I'm perfectly aware that there are many on this site who will claim it is night if the Catholic Church says it's day, even if they have to shade their eyes from the sun they say isn't there. So be it. He's welcome to take or leave the information as he sees fit, as is anyone else.
How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments. Benjamin Franklin
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm Fibr Dog's source is from the Catholic Church website. It's easier to understand at the site, using the link above. He gave the same link, but somehow it got messed up. In short, we do not become guardian angels, they are a different creation of God's. They are God's messengers and they have a hierarchy. At times, there have been instances where people are very aware of them. And there are Scriptures about their activities like this one: Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unaware." (Hebrews 13:2). http://www.infpage.com/concordance/god2.htm
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers Sounds like part of the spiel of a 'Born Again Christian' snake oil huckster. Hey, a guy's gotta make a livin'. Out of Hymiewood favor 'Born Again Christian' Jewboy Stephen Baldwin is even tapping into the potentially lucrative fields of the 'Christian' evangelist racket.
Angels, good and fallen, were never people. When people die, their souls go to the Judgement. I'll let someone else quote the verses. (Obviously, I need to do more studying on my own.)
Memo to self: Please read thread, before posting reply...
and that certainly doesn't diminish in any way what you've posted. there have been many knock down dragout threads on religions, faith, and the bible here. sometimes they get contentious, but mostly they've been civil, respectful, and, from my view, enlightening.
Interesting theory...... Nonsense, but interesting nonetheless. See, people want to think they have this immortal "soul" - something that never dies. The "body" may die, but the "soul" will live on for eternity, either in heaven or hell (and in the case of the catholics there is purgatory too) but one way or another the soul is immortal. Now, they didn't get that from Scripture, but if that's what they want to believe then more power to them. In Scripture, the Creator tells us that souls die. In fact the word soul is commonly misused to represent "spirit". The original Hebrew word for "soul" is nephesh - meaning a breathing creature.. I'm a nephesh, and so is my dog and so is the salmon I'd like to have for supper... A nephesh can be living or they can be DEAD. Like I said, if folks want to believe their soul will live forever, then that's their choice, but that's not what they learned from Scripture. In Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Notice it doesn't say the soul that sinneth shall live forever in hell. Neither does it say the soul that doesn't sin shall live forever in heaven. This is repeated in Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. In Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; People don't believe that. Again, they believe the wages of sin is eternal life spent in hell. Fine. They are free to believe what they want, but they didn't get that belief from Scripture - they got it from their local pulpit parrot. For those 2 or 3 that want to know what really happens, start by looking at Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Notice here that we are (1) Looking at New Testament - hence for those that think the Old Testament is archaic and was tossed out when Jesus was hung on the cross, they can pay attention to this; and (2) We are talking about King David - the only person I know of in Scripture which God says "is a man after His own heart".. Wouldn't you think that someone that God held in such high esteem would be qualified to be in Heaven? Guess what? HE'S NOT!!!! How do we know that? Well just a few verses later in Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, So where is David? He's somewhere in the Middle East, DEAD and BURIED!!! And he's awaiting the resurrection. You'll see this in Hebrews 11:32-35 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: What is this "better resurrection"? And how does it differ from a "regular resurrection"? The resurrection is what we will be awaiting after we die and are buried and rotting back to dust (we will all be resurrected - Moses, and Hitler and me and you, and it doesn't matter what we think about it - no one's asking whether we want to or not)... That is when the "New Covenant" takes affect!!! We aren't living under the "New Covenant" yet!!! We are still bound by the "Old Covenant", and all it's laws. We've already seen that the wages of sin is death, so what is sin? In 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. So, if you break the laws of the Old Covenant, you have sinned, and the result of breaking those laws is DEATH.... Again, NOT eternal life in hell.... And a BETTER resurrection is gaining the extra benefits promised under the New Covenant IF you keep the Laws of the Creator. In 1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. In other words, the ONLY one that has immortality is the Creator. The rest of us will DIE, we won't be making a magical trip to heaven or hell, and we'll be taking that dirt nap waiting on the resurrection at some indefinite time in the future. Well, that should be plenty to dispell that wonderful theory this group you were talking about believes in. Of course, I'm not sure it's your place to try to dispell their belief, but that's fodder for another discussion. Chances are they're gonna think you're some kook. Not that they got their belief from Scripture, but if it makes them feel good there's not much chance you'll convince them otherwise. UH, if you're wondering what happens to those that are righteous and follow the Law as the Creator laid out to Moses if they don't go to heaven when they die - well in short they will gain the promise given by The Creator; eternal life (after the resurrection), and His Kingdom will be right here on earth, and they (under one of the benefits of the New Covenant in addition to the ones from the Old Covenant) will be the rulers of the nations.... But that too is fodder for another thread.
"Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
If I'm not mistaken, the "Angels" were all male & "Guardian Angels" are superstition and poetic license - however popular.
With due respect Angle, I must interject that this is wrong. In 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Of course, like so many things, people don't believe that. And who am I to argue with thier beliefs? Not that they got their beliefs from Scripture, but I don't suppose that matters. But according to Scripture, it's a no-no to interpret it however you want.
"Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin
Don't know if this helps.... KJV Matthew 18:10 Mat 18:10 Take heed3708 that ye despise2706 not3361 one1520 of these5130 little ones;3398 for1063 I say3004 unto you,5213 That3754 in1722 heaven3772 their846 angels32 do always1223, 3956 behold991 the3588 face4383 of my3450 Father3962 which3588 is in1722 heaven.3772 The numbers match up to Strong's Concordance for word explanation, grammar, etc. In context, 'little ones' refers to one that has become as a little child, or a christian.
I like that verse, I almost posted it too. Especially today, when children seem to be the targets of so much evil, or just someone's collateral damage.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers It's a no-no to sodomize little boys as well. Who are these hypocrites who claim the right to interpret?
I'm no expert on all things religious, but from what I've read, whenever God wanted to make an example out of someone, he sent an angel. I don't think I'd be in a big hurry to encounter one.
"First I'm gonna bother everybody I meet, and then I'll probably go home and get drunk."
Those are NOT the interpreters, the interpretation was done long ago by scholars. Those are the evil opportunists that you can find at playgrounds, schools, boy scout troops, rec centers, and churches and synogogues everywhere.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers Robin posted an excellent summary of applicable verses that demonstrate angels are beings created by God to serve God's various purposes, and obviously therefore dead people don't become angels, guardian or otherwise. A further distinction between angels and mankind is made by the verse: and reiterating the row from Robin's post "Man made a little lower than angels", people are clearly distinct from angels: We (Saints) are a little lower than angels but we will still judge angels, not lower than ourselves or judge ourselves, but angels. This naturally begs the argument or question in your listeners, if dead people do not become guardian angles, then what does the bible say dead people do become? Firstly, everyone dies and is judged, and there is no reincarnation: Secondly, the physical body dies when its spirit is absent: Thirdly, depending on ones faith (or disbelief) in Jesus Christ, that departed spirit embarks on one of two opposite and irreversible paths to opposite outcomes (neither of which is a "guardian angel"): Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. (12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. (14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (15) And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
who exactly, and why do you believe them?
The Scriptures have been checked over and over by many translators throughout the ages. Sometimes there are arguments, like when someone with a 4th grade education thinks they know what was really meant. This was true of the Russellites, who became Jehovah Witnesses. He had a 4th grade education. At least all of our Scripture is in print for anyone to read, in any language. Nothing is hidden.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers From my various readings, I've come to understand that your "Guardian Angel" is that part of your soul (or spirit) that resides in a higher realm, in unity with the Divine. It guides you through your mortal life. As far as other types of Angels, there are Archangels, such as Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel (or Ariel), and others. Then there are lesser Angels, who carry a multitude of names. They are not the same as "Guardian Angels".
ah, so the scriptures are for the educated and the illiterates must rely on the chosen to decipher and interpret for them. I hope you'll forgive me if I note the inherent danger in this premise.
There's a greater danger in people translating Scripture from a language they have no knowledge of, to one they only have a 4th grade education in. Again, everything is out in the open, no high priesthood here, and of course there are slight differences of opinion in some places. Unlike the link FormerLurker gives above.
"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country." - Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers I have found the following article helpful: "What Happens When We Die? If we immediately go to heaven or hell when we die, why do we need a judgment? Hasn't the decision already been made by God? Why does the Bible so frequently speak of the joy of the resurrection, if everybody has already gone to one place or the other? Why is a major important doctrine based on 4 texts, when an additional 25 texts that say the opposite, are completely ignored? The Bible warns that speaking with the dead is an abomination to God. Why would the Bible speak so STRONGLY against this practice if these are just our dead relatives and friends? What is the difference between the "soul" and the "spirit"? ..... http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com /death.htm What Happens to a Person When He Dies? Can the Dead Actually Come Back and Visit us? Lorraine Day, M.D. There are at least 25 Bible texts that tell us that death is a sleep, and that when a person is dead, he remains in the grave and he has no thoughts. He is in a state of lack of consciousness. He knows NOTHING! He is not in heaven nor hell. He is in the grave and knows nothing......... http://www.goodnews aboutgod.com/studies/whenwedie.htm ...In Conclusion: After looking at ALL the evidence, ALL the texts regarding "Death" in the Bible, it is clear that death is a sleep, a state of lack of consciousness, as Jesus Himself so PLAINLY stated, and that the dead remain in the grave until either the First Resurrection which occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus, or the Second Resurrection, which occurs after the 1000 year Millennium. I may disagree with her on this point. She seems to speak of the Second Coming of Jesus as being in the future. I am a partial preterist, and believe most of the book of Revelation already happened, and that Jesus' Second Coming was when he came and judged Jerusalem. I believe the "1,000 years" are symbolic, like most of the book of Revelation, and that we have been living in them for almost 2,000 years. I believe that the disciples and those that were martyred for Jesus live and reign from the heavens with Him now, and that was the First Resurrection http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#5 . I believe the "1,000 years" are up, and that He is coming again soon for the Great White Throne Judgment and Resurrection of all the rest.
I don't know for sure if we sit "sleeping" in the ground until judgment day and the resurrection; or if time ceases to exist for us and the resurrection is immediate; I suspect the latter. Either way, I wouldn't count on any "rest period" before you face judgment. Judgment is a deeply personal thing, I think, and redemption has more to do with faith and true repentance than anything you've done. I'd like to think there's a special hell for those who commit the most heinous crimes, but I don't think there is. I think Hell is simply perishing; and since we are born in sin, live in sin and can only hope to die redeemed by Grace, the punishment for pride is the same as the punishment for genocide. My faith teaches that the first thing we do in the morning when we wake up is sin. We sin all day and when we aren't sinning, we're thinking about sinning. At night we dream about sinning. Thus, only faith and repentance can save you. In terms of my moral guilt, I'm just as much a sinner as, say, Dick Cheney.
the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.
#2. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
people become "guardian Angels" after their body dies. And then they have to go around and perform routine maintenance on families', and others' pathetic lives
#3. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
#4. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
I'm not sure that I want to hang around dead relatives and descendants all day.
#5. To: Red Jones, Innieway, Ferret Mike (#0)
#6. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
Since I'm not too sharp on the Bible, can anybody fill me in with verses as to why there are no "Guardian Angels"? So that I may use said verses in my argument?
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#7. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
(Edited)
#8. To: All (#0)
#9. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
#10. To: Minerva (#9)
#11. To: Minerva (#9)
If you did not lead a good life you were re-incarnated as Goldi-Lox's toilet seat.
#12. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
(Edited)
I have recently come into contact with a religious sect that preaches that, basically, people become "guardian Angels" after their body dies. And then they have to go around and perform routine maintenance on families', and others' pathetic lives, helping them with troubles. I'm not sure that I want to hang around dead relatives and descendants all day. Since I'm not too sharp on the Bible, can anybody fill me in with verses as to why there are no "Guardian Angels"? So that I may use said verses in my argument?
#13. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
#14. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
Give Me Your Opinions
#15. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#8)
#16. To: Fibr Dog (#12)
Angels are spiritual beings whom the Lord made separately, just as a dog is different from a cat.
#17. To: angle, Nintendo of the Gods (#15)
(Edited)
With a due respect to Fibr Dog's research,
#18. To: Fibr Dog, Nintendo of the Gods (#12)
Angels
Angels created by God Nehemiah 9:6; Jn 1:3; Rom 11:36; Col 1:16; 1Cor 8:6 Angels are servants of God Job 4:18; Ps 103:20 Angels are messengers sent by God Gen 24:7; Num 20:16; 1Chron 21:15; 2Chron 32:21; Dan 3:28; 6:22; Lk 1:19; 26; Acts 12:11 Called sons of God Deut 32:8; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Ps 29:1; 82:1; 89:6 Called holy ones of God, Job 5:1; 15:15; Ps 89:7; Dan 4:13; 8:13 God manifests himself as Angel of the Lord Gen 16:7; 13; 18:1-33; 21:17-18; 22:11; 31:11-13, Ex 3:2,Judg 2:1; 6:11-24; 13:21-22 Names of three angels Raphael: Tobit 3:16-17; 5:4; 12:11-15; Gabriel: Dan 8:16; 9:21; Lk 1:19; 26; Michael: Dan 10:13; 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev 12:7 Angels are ministering spirits Ps 91:11; Dan 7:10; Mt 4:11; Mk 1:13; Lk 22:43; Heb 1:14 Guardian angels Tobit 12:12; Mt 18:10; Acts 12:11; 15 Angels gather elect at Christ's return Mt 24:31; Mk 13:27; 1Cor 15:52 Angels will accompany Christ at his parousiaParousia Mt 16:27; 25:31; Mk 8:38; 1Thess 4:16 Man made a little lower than angels Gen 1:26; 28; 3:5; Ps 8:5-6; Wis 2:23; Sirach 17:1-14
#19. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
Enter stage left...
#20. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
Here's my belief on this one -
#21. To: robin (#18)
Good job!
#22. To: Fibr Dog (#17)
I'm perfectly aware that there are many on this site who will claim it is night if the Catholic Church says it's day, even if they have to shade their eyes from the sun they say isn't there. So be it. He's welcome to take or leave the information as he sees fit, as is anyone else.
#23. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
(Edited)
people become "guardian Angels" after their body dies.
#24. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
#25. To: angle (#15)
With a due respect to Fibr Dog's research, I must interject that scripture is subject to interpretation.
#26. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
#27. To: rowdee (#26)
#28. To: innieway (#25)
it's a no-no to interpret it however you want
#29. To: RickyJ (#6)
Yes, there are angels that do help people. But I know of no scripture in the bible that says they are former humans that are doing this.
#30. To: angle (#28)
#31. To: Nintendo of the Gods, robin (#18)
(Edited)
people become "guardian Angels" after their body dies. ... fill me in with verses as to why there are no "Guardian Angels"?
1Co 6:2-3 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? (3) Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Jam 2: 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Spirits of those who believed in Jesus Christ during life go into the presence of the Lord Jesus to await their resurrection and eternity in heaven:
2Co 5:6-8 while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Spirits of those who rejected Jesus Christ during life go to hell (or hades) to await final judgement (and subsequent eternal condemnation and punishment in the lake of fire) at the great white throne:
Luk 16: 19-31 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. (20) "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, (21) and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. (22) "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. (23) "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' (25) "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. (26) 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' (27) "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- (28) for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' (29) "But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' (30) "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' (31) "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Note in the forgoing passage about Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus teaches this as a factual event. Jesus does not teach it as a parable or a story.
#32. To: robin (#30)
the interpretation was done long ago by scholars
#33. To: angle (#32)
#34. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
I have recently come into contact with a religious sect that preaches that, basically, people become "guardian Angels" after their body dies.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#35. To: robin (#33)
At least all of our Scripture is in print for anyone to read, in any language. Nothing is hidden.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#36. To: robin (#33)
someone with a 4th grade education thinks they know what was really meant
#37. To: angle (#36)
#38. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#0)
#39. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#38)
"What Happens When We Die?"
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