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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: The Pope's Evil Legend, Mohammed's Sword
Source: Counterpunch
URL Source: http://www.counterpunch.com/
Published: Sep 26, 2006
Author: Uri Avnery
Post Date: 2006-09-26 21:35:05 by Zoroaster
Keywords: None
Views: 243
Comments: 18

September 26, 2006

The Pope's Evil Legend Mohammed's Sword By URI AVNERY

Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.

Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306--exactly 1700 years ago--encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.

The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".

* * *

IN HIS lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted--of all people--a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had--or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt)--with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

These words give rise to three questions:

(a) Why did the Emperor say them?

(b) Are they true?

(c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

* * *

WHEN MANUEL II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. In 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

* * *

IS THERE any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes--Christian, Jewish and others--in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith--and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

* * *

THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service--a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion--because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

* * *

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims--the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism"--when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?

Uri Avnery is an Israeli writer and peace activist with Gush Shalom. He is one of the writers featured in The Other Israel: Voices of Dissent and Refusal. He is also a contributor to CounterPunch's hot new book The Politics of Anti-Semitism.

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#1. To: Zoroaster, Red Jones, aristeides, MUDDOG, gengis ghandi, Ferret Mike, Zipporah, Starwind, Arator (#0)

The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith--and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims--the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

An intriguing and scathing analysis by Uri Avnery.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-26   21:51:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: robin (#1)

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims--the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost

There were a few bad actors of the Caliphs who were quite bloodthirsty and doctrine in the long history of Islam in Europe. This should be of no surprise. Look at Bush, for example.

tom007  posted on  2006-09-26   23:03:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: tom007 (#2)

It sounded a bit too pure to me too. But certainly the Crusades don't hold up well under close examination either.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-26   23:05:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: robin (#3)

But certainly the Crusades don't hold up well under close examination either.

Salidin was an compassionate man v. Richard the Lion Hearted. Europe was devestated by the waves of plague, fear and desparation and the notion of divine retributation for some terrible sin was heavy upon the ignorent masses. They were easily propelled into the crusades. Any thing was better than home. Some historians claim that most thought the holy lands were a three or four days hike away. I think this is true.

tom007  posted on  2006-09-26   23:17:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: robin (#3)

The Crusades were a mixed bag. The "People's Crusade" lead by a mad monk who went about Europe collecting the poor, homeles, the criminal, and the insane to follow him to the "holy land" to wage "holy war" is perhaps the most scandalous. When not killing every Jew they could get their hands on as this ragtag army roamed about Europe looking for recruits- ambitious knights attached themselves to this "cause" and were able to get financing from Genoa Merchants- who re-directed their ire against Jews and Moslems to the Orthodox and they sacked Constantinople (this was after they had their asses whipped on the plains of Turkey outside the city walls by the Mooslims). They killed the Jews of Constantinople of course- as well as many Orthodox Christians since they couldn't kill armed Mooslems in stand up combat.

Burkeman1  posted on  2006-09-26   23:18:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Burkeman1, robin (#5) (Edited)

They killed the Jews of Constantinople of course- as well as many Orthodox Christians since they couldn't kill armed Mooslems in stand up combat.

Heck I believe the slaughtered most of the Christians in the holy land as well, as they spoke a different language.

It resembled a vast desparate looting. Not much "Holy" about it.

To be fair the incursions of Islam into E. Europe in the eighth century was pretty much the same. When Charles Martel "The Hammer" defeated the Islamists, the booty they left behind to salvage their lives was immense. Nothing "Holy" about that either.

The difference betweens governments and criminals seems to be the rate of their rapacity. Governments generally want 25% or so, criminals want it all.

tom007  posted on  2006-09-26   23:26:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Zoroaster (#0)

WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service--a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion--because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

Jews and Christians had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service--a trade-off.

NOT ONLY THAT, THE TRUTH IS THAT MUSLIMS HAVE TO PAY OBLIGATED CHARITY TAX CALLED "ZAKAHAT" IT IS DOUBLE WHAT CHRIISTIAN AND JEWS POLL-TAX.

NO OTHER PERSON HAS BEEN SPOKEN OF, BY FOES AS THEY DID ABOUT MOHAMMED & ISLAM:

EXAMPLES:

WHAT SAID ABOUT ISLAM:

The Prince of Wales, "Islam And The West "

We have underestimated the importance of 800 years of Islamic society and culture in Spain between the 8th and 15th centuries. The contribution of Muslim Spain to the preservation of classical learning during the Dark Ages, and to the first flowering of the Renaissance, has long been recognized. But Islamic Spain was much more than a mere larder where Hellenistic knowledge was kept for later consumption by the emerging modern world. Not only did Muslim Spain gather and preserve the intellectual content of ancient Greek and Roman civilization, it also interpreted and expanded upon that civilization, and made a vital contribution of its own in so many fields of human endeavour -- in science, astronomy, mathematics, algebra (itself an Arabic word), law, history, medicine, pharmacology, optics, agriculture, architecture, theology, music. Averroes and Avenzoor, like their counterparts Avicenna and Rhazes in the East, contributed to the study and practice of medicine in ways from which Europe benefited for centuries afterwards.

Islam nurtured and preserved the quest for learning. In the words of (the Prophet's) tradition "the ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr." Cordoba in the 10th century was by far the most civilized city of Europe. We know of lending libraries in Spain at the time King Alfred was making terrible blunders with the culinary arts in this country. It is said that the 400,000 volumes of its ruler's library amounted to more books than all the of the rest of Europe put together. That was made possible because the Muslim world acquired from China the skill of making paper more than four hundred years before the rest of non-Muslim Europe. Many of the traits on which Europe prides itself came to it from Muslim Spain. Diplomacy, free trade, open borders, the techniques of academic research, of anthropology, etiquette, fashion, alternative medicine, hospitals, all came from this great city of cities. Mediaeval Islam was a religion of remarkable tolerance for its time, allowing Jews and Christians to practice their inherited beliefs, and setting an example which was not, unfortunately, copied for many centuries in the West. The surprise, ladies and gentlemen, is the extent to which Islam has been a part of Europe for so long, first in Spain, then in the Balkans, and the extent to which it has contributed so much towards the civilization which we all too often think of, wrongly, as entirely Western. Islam is part of our past and present, in all fields of human endeavour. It has helped to create modern Europe. It is part of our own inheritance, not a thing apart.

Shaukat’s story of Muslims in Spain It was the Emir of Muslim North Africa, who sent his young general Tariq bin Ziyad with a few thousands Arab soldiers to ‘liberate’ the Christian and Jewish Serf (slaves) from the barbaric treatment of Catholic Church in 711 CE. Within three years – the Muslim army had taken majority of Spanish territory. They confiscated Church’s land and gave it to the Serf farmers; provided free education to both Muslims and non-Muslims, and opened up administrational position to the Jewish community – so much so that some of Moorish Queens, generals, royal ohysicians, and even Grand-Wazirs (prime ministers) – were Jewish.

The glorious Muslim society was ‘ethnically cleansed’ in 1490s.

http://www.islamicity.com /mosque/ihame/Sec5.htm

Strange then that Muslims, Jews and Christians were able to co-exist reasonably peaceably under Muslim rule in Al-Andalus for some hundreds of years, longer in fact than the US had been in existence. Even more strange, is it not, that repressive conversion to an alternative religious ideology arrived with the Catholic Kings and the Inquisition?" RH: I believe this happy picture was painted by men like Aml1;rico Castro and Fernando de los Rl5;os. The three groups co-existed much as they do in Europe today, in a state of constant tension. The Catholic Kings came to power as Europe was tiring of religious wars and the principle of cuius regio eius religio was established. Hence the persecution of non-Catholics. The growth of the Inquisition is proof that relations had not been too happy. The way to get to the facts on this would be to go through local Spanish archives of the Muslim period. This would require a knowledge of Arabic. This may have been done, but I am not aware of it. I am not in any way excusing the Inquisition - John Heelan - Ronald Hilton - 2/16/03 ----------------------------- The Charter of Privileges

"This is a message from [Prophet] Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion [in religion] is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their Churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (of Muslims) is to disobey this covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)." ________________________________________

This was said way back in the 7th Century. The document where this was written and used by Muslims to govern over Christians still exists. In fact if you examine the real history of Muslims rule over Christians, Jews and others you would see that for the most part they have lived up to this charter.

You need to re-examine history and what you have been told. You have been fed and gobbled down a ton of lies!!! Even your Western historians have told you the same:

History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated” (Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923 p. 8 ) De Lacy O'Leary on the subject of “the sword of Islam”.

-----------------------------------------

http://www.chachany.com/m motai1/chachan2005.zip 220 MB

http://www.chachany.com/mm otai/chachan2005.wmv MB 45

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.noorradio.com

“Verily! Allah will not change the good condition of the people as long as they do not change their state of goodness themselves.” [Sura Al Ra’d 13:11], as quoted by Prof. Dr. Ahmed H. Zewail, in The New World Dis-Order – Can Science Aid the Have-Nots?, A. H. Zewail, in: Proceedings of the Jubilee Plenary Session of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Science and the Future of Mankind, 99, 450 (2001)

"Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than God, or His Apostle, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until God brings about His decision: and God guides not the rebellious." (Tebve 24)

The 'Free Societies' Ms Rose Wilder Lane in her book ‘Islam and The Discovery of Freedom’ wrote – “Prophet Abraham was the first person, who attempted to establish a ‘free society’ where each individual to be responsible under the domain of one God. The Prophet Muhammad was the second person whose teachings succeeded in establishing a ‘free society’. It was the first enduring civilization successfully founded on man’s direct responsibility to God and its consequent implications for human freedom and progress. The third attempt was made during American Revolution – but it was proposed upon the foundations lain by the earlier two.” Objectively: Short & Sweet

Christianity: (1) Trinity is not logical. (2)The original Bible has been altered so many times that it has seventy some versions. (3) You get salvation only through middle agent (a priest/preacher/pope) who loves your money.

Judaism: (1) Do not believe in Jesus as a holy man or as a prophet. (2) Racist, you must have a “chosen” genes, example: Tribe of Levi only are true Holy men (rabbi). (3) Do not believe in the hereafter (no hell or heaven) only in some kind of Recantation …. red heifer…….. Kabala and other semi-magical mystiques.

Islam: Very simple, straight forward, very logical: One God, NO Partners of any kind Emphasizes: Truth, Justice, Family. After God you must treat: you’r Mother (mother is very important), Father and siblings in a very companionate manner. No Racism of any kind. You will be judged at the hereafter so you will go to heaven or hell or a little of each. No middle agent and NO mystery or magic any kind is accepted. Hygiene is strict and obligatory every day and at every act.

No Brainer, this is why people with moral values choose Islam. 25:63:

"The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, "Peace!" Dr. Leopard Weis (Mohammad Assad) in his book 'Islam at Crossroad' says - "The western are born with hatred against Islam and Muslims - Therefore, we Muslims should not be surprised on their evil acts". Muslim charity goes around the world without the TV cameras, so does their preaching of Islam - not like the TV Evangelists, robbing poor Christians of hundreds of millions of their old-age savings. It were the Muslims who suffered from that man-made (or could be natural disaster) - and it were the Muslims who are helping them. The US, Israel and western countries never help anyone - unless it serve their financial, military or regional interests - or spreading of Christianity amongst the victims, who becomes an easy prey for these vultures.

Max  posted on  2006-09-26   23:44:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: tom007 (#4)

Any thing was better than home. Some historians claim that most thought the holy lands were a three or four days hike away.

Well now that has a familiar ring to it. How many unemployed young Americans cannot find Iraq or Iran on a map, but do find their way to the recruiter's office?

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-26   23:48:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: robin (#8)

How many unemployed young Americans cannot find Iraq or Iran on a map,

I faint to say that most Americans could hardly find the continent Iran is in.

But some want to kill everyone in it.

tom007  posted on  2006-09-27   0:03:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Zoroaster, robin (#0)

True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes--Christian, Jewish and others--in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Well that's novel hair-splitting to say the least.

Muhammad's assault on Arabia was to impose his views re worshipping Allah on his countrymen; from Medina to Mecca to finally all of Arabia in 634. But then Muhammad died and his successor caliphs felt they had to protect themselves from their non-Islamic neighbors and in 634 jihad was declared on the Sassanids in Persia and Iraq, and the Byzantines in Europe, Syria, Egypt, and Mediterranean Sea, and by 642 Muslim armies had taken Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Mesopotamia, North African coast, and parts of Persia and Byzantium. That is all historical fact.

Various Islamic sects formed and they seemed to compete for converts as well as territory. Perhaps sacking Jerusalem and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in 1009 by caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, in hindsight, wasn't such a good idea.

Yes, the Crusades were un-christian and violent, yes the popes have been tyrannical themselves, but Islam from the very beginning was spread by the sword.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-09-27   0:13:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Starwind (#10) (Edited)

Yes, the Crusades were un-christian and violent, yes the popes have been tyrannical themselves, but Islam from the very beginning was spread by the sword.

Muhammond himself was asked by Omar? if they should attack a contingent of Roman soldiers station in Syria?

He answered something to the effect "Let us not choose problems that we may not be able to answer" (paraphrased)

" but Islam from the very beginning was spread by the sword."

It does not seem to me this is stricly accurate. Soon after yes, but at the "very beginning" it seems to be a family affair, no swords or fighting at all.

Maybe I am being too picky here, as you might be refering to a few years after M. had his revalations, and mentioned that Islam is a sword for conversions.

tom007  posted on  2006-09-27   0:42:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: tom007 (#11)

It does not seem to me this is stricly accurate. Soon after yes, but at the "very beginning" it seems to be a family affair, no swords or fighting at all.

Maybe I am being too picky here, as you might be refering to a few years after M. had his revalations, and mentioned that Islam is a sword for conversions.

Well Muhammad got his first "revelation" in 610 and by 613 he was "inviting" everyone within earshot to convert. Not surprisingly most shrugged him off, until he started attacking their caravans in 624. So, 610 to 624 is 14 years compared to the to-date total of 1,396 years of Islamic history. I'd call within the first 14 years of 1,396 years the "very beginning".

I don't have the time for a long drawn out discussion, not tonight anyway, but here's a reasonably accurate and informative timeline to give you an idea: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history/chronology/century7.html. Go to the link if you want timelines of other centuries.

7th Century (600-699) C.E.

605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet. Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
645: Campaigns in Fats.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
658: Battle of Nahrawan.
659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
662: Khawarij revolts.
666: Raid of Sicily.
670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-09-27   1:15:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Starwind, robin, tom007 (#10)

As far as I can tell, Avnery's account of history is accurate.

Hatred for America's Israel-first policy in the Middle East is what fans Muslim resentment. Religion has little to do with it, though the Pope seems to be fanning the flames by rejuvenating the follies of the past. Religion is a creation of man, not God. God is perfect and does not play favorites.

Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.

Zoroaster  posted on  2006-09-27   10:24:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Zoroaster, tom007, Starwind (#13)

IMO:

Starwind brings some good evidence to the table that Christianity was not the only religion forced onto people.
Neither religion has Scripture to support that behavior.
Human beings are imperfect no matter the religion.

Avnery made some very good points, but probably excluded history that did not conform to his view. His perspective is different from mine and I appreciate it for that. Starwind presents another perspective and may have excluded peaceful eras in Muslim history; we each see history from our own vantage points.

I understand that the pope has apologized about 6 times to the Muslims, I hope it's enough. The history he chose to focus on was most unfortunate.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-27   10:41:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: All, Zoroaster, tom007, Starwind, Eoghan (#14) (Edited)

Opera Canceled Over a Depiction of Muhammad

Wolfgang Börnsen, a culture spokesman for Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservative bloc in Parliament, accused the opera house of “falling on its knees before the terrorists.”

“It is a signal to other stages in Germany, or even elsewhere in Europe, to put no works on their programs that criticize Islam,” he said.

The disputed scene is not part of Mozart’s opera, but was added by the director, Hans Neuenfels. In it, the king of Crete, Idomeneo, carries the heads of Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha and Poseidon on to the stage, placing each on a stool.

Why was this unnecessary scene ADDED? Hmmmm?

Also notice that Abraham is not included.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-27   11:01:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: robin, Zoroaster, tom007 (#14)

Starwind presents another perspective and may have excluded peaceful eras in Muslim history; we each see history from our own vantage points.

I may not always suceed, but I do try to have no historical or political vantage point. I'm not interested in lying, or being lied to, or decieved by any faction; not Wall Street, not politicians, not Jews, not Muslims and not Christians. I do try to see the world as it actually is (or was), and the overlapping agendas do get complex to unravel.

That said, I don't know of any lengthy (decades long) period of peace under Muslim rulers/occupiers. There were always conquests and/or rebellions going on somewhere. After the Crusades, the Ottoman empire dominated Muslim politics/ religion, and it employed the sword just as heavily. It arose and grew 1299-1683, generally reached its maximum mid 1500s, followed by rebellions and reconquests until 1700, after which it declined until ended not later than WWI. In all those years, whether the sword was used "politically" or "religiously" I guess is a matter of semantics, but it was nonetheless wielded by Muslims with vigor.

As the Ottoman empire declined, in the late 1700s and 1800s, there were wars, battles, insurrections and conquests all over, many involving Muslim sects fighting each other or fighting invaders. It gets difficult to separate what was religious from what was political, especially when one person's politics is to rebel against another person's religion (and vice versa).

Here is a higher level (less detailed) timeline covering all of Islamic history. http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/timeline.htm:

Timeline of Islam

Below is a timeline of the history of Islam. Major events are in bold.
c. 570 CE Birth of Muhammad.
c. 610 CE Muhammad receives first vision in a cave near Mecca.
c. 610-22 CE Muhammad preaches in Mecca.
622 CE Hijira - Muhammad and followers flee to Medina.
Islamic calendar (AH, Anno Hegirae) begins.
624 CE Muslims successfully attack Meccan caravans at Badr.
625Muslims are defeated by Meccans at Uhud.
630Muslims capture Mecca. Ka'ba is cleansed, pilgrimage rites are Islamicized, tribes of Arabia vow allegiance to Muhammad
632Death of Muhammad. Abu Bakr chosen as caliph.
632-33Wars of ridda (apostasy) restore allegiance to Islam
633Muslim conquests (Futuhat) begin.
633-42Muslim armies take the Fertile Crescent (Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Mesopotamia), North African coast, parts of Persian and Byzantine Empires
c. 650 Caliph Uthman has the Qur'an written down.
656Uthman is murdered; Ali becomes fourth caliph.
657Battle of Siffin. Mu'awiya, governor of Syria, claims the caliphate.
659Arbitration at Adruh is opposed by Ali's supporters.
661Ali is murdered; Mu'awiya becomes caliph. Beginning of Umayyad Caliphate (661-750).
680Death of Husayn marks beginning of the Shi'at Ali ("party of Ali") or Shi'a sect.
685-705Reign of Abd al-Malik. Centralization of administration - Arabic becomes official written language (instead of Greek and Persian) and Arab coinage is established.
late 600s Ruling classes in East and West Africa convert to Islam.
700-800sGroups of ascetics and mystics begin to form
710Arab armies enter Spain from North Africa.
732Muslim empire reaches its furthes extent. Battle of Tours prevents further advance northwards.
747Revolt defeats the Umayyads.
750Abu l'Abbas becomes caliph in Iraq
754Baghdad (Madinat al-Salam, "city of peace") becomes the new capital of the Abbasid empire.
755Abd ar-Rahman founds an Umayyad Dynasty in Cordoba, Spain.
765Division within Shi'ites - majority are the modern Imamiyya (Twelvers) who co-exist with Abbasid caliphs; minority are more extreme Isma'iliyaa (Seveners).
786-809Reign of Harun ar-Rashid, best known through the stories of The Thousand and One Nights.
800sWritten collections of Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) are compiled. Sicily comes under Muslim rule.
813-33Reign of Ma'mun. Theological controversy over whether the Qur'an is created or uncreated and eternal. Center for translation of texts from Greek to Arabic founded in Baghdad.
869-883Uprisings of black slaves (Zanj) are eventually defeated.
908First Fatimid caliph in Tunisia.
928Umayyad Abd ar-Rahman III declares himself caliph in Cordoba.
940Muhammad al-Mahdi, the twelfth imam, disappears. Twelvers still await the future return of the "Hidden Imam."
945The Buyids (Persian) invade Baghdad and take power from caliph.
969Fatimids gain power in Egypt and attack Palestine, Syria, and Arabia. Cairo (Al-Qahira, "the victorious city") is founded.
980-1037Life of Avicenna, Iranian physician and Aristotelian philosopher.
996-1021Reign of Fatimid al-Hakim. Hamza ibn Ali forms basis of esoteric Druze religion.
late 900s West Africa begins to convert to Islam
1030Umayyad caliphate in Cordoba defeated by the Christian Reconquista.
1055Seljuk Turks take Baghdad; Abbasids now only nominal rulers.
1000sReconquista takes more of Spain, Sicily falls to the Normans, Crusader kingdoms are briefly established in Palestine and Syria.
1071Seljuk Turks defeat Byzantines at Battle of Manzikert.
1090Hasan-i Sabbah takes Alamut in the Persian mountains, the Assassin sect forms around him.
1099Christian Crusaders take Jerusalem.
1100-1200sSufi orders (turuq) are founded.
1126-98Life of Averroës, Muslim philosopher from Cordoba who sought to integrate Islam with Greek thought.
1171Fatimid power ends in Egypt with the conquests of Saladin.
1174Saladin declares himself sultan of Egypt and Syria.
1193Death of Saladin; most of Crusader states have returned to Islam.
1200sAssassins wipes out by the Mongols. Indian rulers in Delhi take title of Sultan. Spanish mystic Muhyi al-Din ibn al-Arabi (1165-1240) flourishes.
1221Genghis Khan and the Mongols enter Persia.
1241Mongols take the Punjab.
1258Mongols capture Baghdad; city is sacked and caliph is killed. End of Abbasid caliphate.
1281-1324Reign of Uthman (Osman), who founds the Ottoman Empire. Muslim merchants and missionary Sufis settle in SE Asia.
mid-1300sOttomans capture Bursa and Iznik and move into Europe.
1366Capital of Ottoman Empire moved from Bursa to Adrianople.
late 1300sOttomas take control of the Balkans.
1400s Islam reaches the Philippines.
1453Mehmet Fatih (rules 1451-81) conquers Constantinople. The two halves of the Ottoman Empire are united and the sultan becomes Byzantine emperor.
1492Castile and Aragon capture Granada. All Muslims (and Jews) expelled from Spain.
1501Isma'il (1487-1524) claims to be the Hidden Imam and is proclaimed Shah (king) of Persia. Twelver Shi'ism becomes official religion of Persia.
1516Ottomans conquer Syria and Egypt.
1517Ottomans control Mecca and Medina.
1520-66Reign of Suleyman the Magnificent; Ottoman Empire reaches its zenith. Hungary and coastlands of Algeria and Tunisia come under Ottoman rule.
1526Babur (Mongolian) seizes the Delhi sultanate and takes control of northern India.
1556Akbar founds the Mughal dynasty in northern India.
1600-1700sVenetians, Habsburgs, and Russians divide European Ottoman lands between them.
1625Java comes under rule of Muslim kingdom of Mataram.
1699Treaty of Karlowitz confirms first substantial losses of Ottoman Empire in Europe.
1700sMuhammad Abd al-Wahhab rejects Sufism and all innovation (bid'a). Founds what becomes the Saudi Arabian kingdom. Hindus regain power from Mughals in northern India.
1738Mughal empire invaded by the Afghans.
1779Afghans ousted by Qajar dynasty, which rules Persia until 1925.
1798Napoleon's expedition to Egypt.
1805Muhammad Ali becomes governor of Egypt, which becomes independent of the Ottomans, gains control of western Arabia and extends into the Sudan.
1807-76Tanzimat period. Ottoman Empire undergoes extensive program of modernization in government, law, and medicine.
1830Greece regains independence from Ottomans.
1850sNon-Muslim Ottoman citizens granted equality with Muslims.
1858Last Mughal in India is deposed and India comes under British rule.
1876-1908Reign of Abd al-Hamid II; autocratic and religiously conservative period in Ottoman rule.
1878Congress of Berlin recognizes independence of Balkan states previously under Muslim rule.
1882-1952Egypt occupied by the British.
1908-18Last decade of Ottoman rule. Rise of nationalistic "Young Turks." More liberal policies develop.
1912Founding of Islamic Union (Sareket Islam), a modernizing movement in SE Asia.
1918Fall of Ottoman Empire. League of Nations grants Britain mandatory status over Palestine and Iraq, and France over Lebanon and Syria.
1923Republic of Turkey established. Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) is first president.
1927Tablighi Jamaat reform movement founded in India.
1928Ikhwan al-Muslimun (Muslim Brothers) founded in Egypt.
1941Jamaat-i Islami reform movement founded in Lahore, India.
1945Indonesia becomes independent republic.
1945-60sIslam spreads to the West with mass migrations from Asia, Africa, and India.
1947Pakistan founded as an Islamic nation. Islam becomes a minority religion in India.
1957Independent Malayan state established with Islam as the official religion but guaranteed tolerance.
1960sFamiles from SE Asia and North Africa emigrate to Europe and the Americas.
1979Shah of Iran is overthrown by Ayatullah Ruhullah Khumayni, who establishes strict fundamentalist rule of Shi'a principles.
late 1990s Taliban come to power in Afghanistan.
2001Muslim extremists attack the United States.
2003Saddam Hussein ousted by Western forces.

Before drawng any conclusions from a period above, I would suggest the reader also go back to the more detailed timelines at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history/chronology/index.html and look at the details, and maybe even google up the history surrounding any given episode or individual.
Gen 16:11-12 The angel of the LORD said to her further, "Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction. (12) "He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone's hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers."

I further reiterate that Christian, Jewish, and Muslim history have all been violent. No one's hands (save Christ's) are clean, but there are significant and legitimate distinctions in what Christ (and the Bible) exhorts to us as God's desired behavior and character for us.

As a Christian, I make the following final point: Assigning motivation, blame, or responsibility to these various conflicts can become very convoluted from a historical and cultural standpoint, but from a spiritual standpoint it is quite simple: These conflicts are all Satanic in nature designed to induce misery and suffering at large, to escalate Jewish and Muslim conflict to keep attention away from salvation in Jesus Christ or to escalate "Christian" conflict to sabotage Christ's message of love and peaceful spread of His gospel message; there's nothing quite like watching Christians mud-wrestle to invalidate their witness to the world.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-09-27   12:56:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Starwind (#16)

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

Avery's article refers to Christians in the Ottoman administration. Reminds me of Tariq Aziz in Saddam's govt.

Thanks for the timeline.

there's nothing quite like watching Christians mud-wrestle to invalidate their witness to the world.

I know what you mean, but it doesn't always invalidate it. That we air our dirty laundry and then argue over what needs more cleaning is better than hiding it, allowing the mold to grow.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-27   13:04:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: robin (#17) (Edited)

Sincerely, I don't know from where Avnery gets his history:

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them?

Yes, as a matter of historical fact, many Greeks became Muslims to escape the Ottoman imposed poll-tax levied on non-muslims who whished to practice their religion.

There was also the Ottoman imposed "Tribute of Children", 1493 (excerpt):

They are kept up by continual additions from the sultan's share of the captives, and by recruits, raised every five years, from the children of the Christian subjects. Small parties of soldiers, each under a leader, and each provided with a particular firman, go from place to place. Wherever they come, the protogeros assembled the inhabitants with their sons. The leader of the soldiers have the right to take away all the youth who are distinguished by beauty or strength, activity or talent, above the age of seven. He carries them to the court of the grand seignior, a tithe, as it is, of the subjects. The captives taken in war by the pashas, and presented by them to the sultan, include Poles, Bohemians, Russians, Italians, and Germans.

These recruits are divided into two classes. Those who compose the one, are sent to Anatolia, where they are trained to agricultural labor, and instructed in the Mussulman faith; or they are retained about the seraglio, where they carry wood and water, and are employed in the gardens, in the boats, or upon the public buildings, always under the direction of an overseer, who with a stick compels them to work. The others, in whom traces of a higher character are discernible, are placed in one of the four seraglios of Adrianople or Galata, or the old or new one at Constantinople. Here they are lightly clad in linen or in cloth of Saloniki, with caps of Prusa cloth. Teachers come every morning, who remain with them until evening, and teach them to read and write. Those who have performed hard labor are made Janizaries. Those who are educated in the seraglios become spahis or higher officers of state.

On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration.

Some of them were the conscripted children of Christian's who were educated in Ottoman' adminstrivia and were made "spahis or higher officers of state". Others were Eastern Orthodox Catholic christians and they hated the Roman Catholic church more than they hated the Ottomans, and so yes, they chose the lesser of two evils and served in governing their own peoples.

The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

It is the nature of a truly transformed Christian to remain a disciple of Christ, regardless of who holds the sword over their neck. And as noted above, there were compulsions levied.

Further, the Ottomans ruled Greece from the mid 1400s to the early 1800s, during which time the Ottomans also captured and ruled Syria, Egypt, Hungary, coastlands of Algeria and Tunisia, Spain, etc.

The relativly benign Ottoman treatment of Greece does not mitigate their sword- based imposition of Islam (whether politically or religiously motivated) on other countries.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-09-27   14:04:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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