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Title: FBI Agent Posed as White Supremicist for 14 Years (Tied to OKC Bombing)
Source: Associated Press via APFN
URL Source: http://disc.server.com/discussion.c ... 49495;article=80973;title=APFN
Published: Jun 5, 1999
Author: Wendy Nakamura
Post Date: 2005-04-15 00:35:41 by OKCSubmariner
Keywords: Supremicist, Bombing), Agent
Views: 2218
Comments: 207

FBI Agent Penetrated Into The Heart of Darkness

WASHINGTON DC (AP) - For almost fourteen years, he lived in a world of hatred, bigotry, and violence.

He attended Klan rallies and meetings of buttoned-down intellectual racists in business suits in the most upmarket hotels. He met and hosted Holocaust deniers like German- Canadian Ernst Zundel and British author David Irving. He was there at cross-burnings and street marches, waving a picket sign or a Confederate battle flag and always shouting the loudest of any among his White supremacist cohorts. He drank beer with Skinhead gangs, swapped jokes with them about African-Americans, Hispanics, and Jews, and heard them plot hate crimes and racial assaults. He cruised the Internet, posting racist messages to computer bulletin boards and newsgroups, making contacts with neo-Nazis and nationalist extremists the world over. He infiltrated the inner councils of almost every top hate group in the United States and even in Europe. He even filed a libel suit against another White supremacist who claimed he was an FBI informant.

But he was.

Last month FBI Special Agent James R. Finchley, a decorated Vietnam veteran and "one of the best and bravest men ever to graduate out of Quantico" according to a former instructor at the world-famous FBI academy who knew him and trained him, came in from the cold at last, after successfully carrying out the longest-running deep-cover infiltration of any criminal or terrorist underworld in the history of American law enforcement.

Finchley's fourteen years in the White racist underground produced only a handful of actual prosecutions, but "that wasn't his primary mission," according to the former director of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit at Quantico, Kenneth M. Lanning. "He was there to listen and learn, and the wealth of information he obtained for us is beyond price."

"It is not too much to say that we now know virtually everything there is to know about organized race hatred in this country. These guys [White supremacist activists and leaders] couldn't go to the can without us knowing about it," Lanning said.

FBI Director Louis Freeh was not available for comment, but U. S. Attorney General Janet Reno told a reporter, "We usually do not make any public statement on covert operations of this nature until all criminal cases associated with an investigation have been brought to a conclusion, but I will say that Special Agent Finchley displayed uncommon courage, resourcefulness, and initiative in a very complex and often dangerous situation."

Finchley's cover was so deep he is reported to have actually married one woman who was involved in a White supremacist group he wanted to penetrate. On that occasion he went to St. Petersburg, Russia to meet and bring to America a Russian woman who was to be the "mail order bride" of a nationally known White supremacist leader who was banned from entering the country because of his views.

Finchley was so taken with the woman that he persuaded her to marry him instead, allegedly in order to keep her out of the clutches of the racist leader. Soon afterwards he and his Russian wife amicably divorced and Agent Finchley arranged for her to get a green card and relocate to Florida.

Justice Department sources are close-mouthed about many of the details of Finchley's fourteen-year odyssey into the murky underworld of racism and hate. "There are still some loose ends to be tied up, and once this gets out there are going to be some very angry White supremacists out there," said a spokesman for the Department. The source refused to say whether Agent Finchley had been moved into the Witness Protection Program or what measures were being taken to prevent retaliation by Finchley's former comrades in the racist movement.

Possibly the most bizarre event of Finchley's long- running undercover operation was when he was accused of having been involved in the Oklahoma City bombing as "John Doe Number Two" by the editor of a racist newsletter who had long suspected Finchley of being a Federal agent. Finchley took an absolutely unprecedented step: he sued the editor for libel and obtained a 110,000 default judgment when the defendant didn't show up in court to try the case.

"I don't know if he's been successful in collecting any of the money the judge awarded him," said Lanning.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  

what a slimey way to make a living.

You know it.

Flintlock  posted on  2005-04-15   10:09:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's a clip from "The Southern Mercury", 2003:

If you'd like, I'll post the entire article which includes the notes and references for its sources.

That would be great, thanks!

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   10:12:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Souterhn Poverty law Center informants

I have discovered there is an internship agreement between Harvard and the SPLC.Harvard sends students to the SPLC. Some of these "students" go out in the field to do "research" on Southern groups. But all they are doing is gathering info for the gov't.

I also have a theory about Dees and the SPLC and the gov't. They blackmail each other and use information as leverage on each other, within their own gov't supremacist circle. (Just a theory, no documented evidence to support it. Just connecting a few dots.)

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   10:20:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The article is long, but I'll post it.

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   10:21:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The question is whether his m.o. would have completely passed muster with them.

No. The question I was considering was whether he THINKS just as they do, and whether he is pretty much indistinguishable from them.

But, okay, let's consider YOUR question. Do you think his m.o. would have completely passed muster with them? Once we've decided on a "yes" or a "no" to this question, tell us what further insight that gives us (if any).

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   10:21:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

you've got a short attention span and I've got a life, so lets forget it, shall we?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   10:23:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

there are only two types of Klan members - gas station attendents and government informants. The government people are easy to spot, they're the ones paying membership dues.

I am inclined to agree with you. To my knowledge I have only met one KKK member. It was at one of my first jobs, at a social service agency in East San Diego. He had just arrived from one of the Carolinas, w/o a job, w/o $ and ILLITERATE. (It felt like the '30s during the Dust Bowl or somethin').

I had also never met anyone who was illiterate; a stellar day. In the course of filling out forms (this was a govt funded social service agency, so of course there were forms), when asked what organizations he belonged to, he replied the Klu Klux Klan. He was deadpan serious. I remember having to explain to him how to get to his job interview, w/o street signs. What a trip! I saw him again a year later, at a Southern Baptist church function; he was engaged.

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   10:25:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Reprinted, Courtesy of The Southern Mercury magazine, Premiere issue, 2003

THE ISSUE AND SOME QUESTIONS

In the late 1990s what is perhaps the most powerful and professional "anti- hate" civil rights pressure group in the United States--the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC)--began targeting and attacking the Sons of Confederate Veterans, its leaders, and initiatives. In "exposes" published in the SPLC's quarterly journal Intelligence Report, in training courses offered to hundreds of law enforcement agents across the nation, and in its self-erected position as a "source" for "background" on "hate groups" to national media outlets such as CNN, ABC, and CBS News, this powerful group began lumping the SCV together not only with other respectable heritage organizations (such as the League of the South), but with "the Klan" and skinheads. The SCV was, said the SPLC, increasingly dominated by "neo-Confederates." The SCV's campaign, for instance, to retain the CSA battle flag atop the South Carolina capital building, the SPLC termed "sometimes ugly" and various SCV leaders were called "racists" or "white supremacists." (1)

Why has the Southern Poverty Law Center unleashed these attacks? Just what is this powerful "civil rights" group, and who is its controversial leader Morris Seligman Dees? Why is the SPLC so highly regarded by law enforcement? Members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and open-minded citizens need to understand and answer these questions. And educators and the news media should closely examine their reliance on the SPLC for "facts" or "background" when reporting stories relating to Southern and Confederate heritage.

First, a little history is in order.

THE ROLE OF THE SCV

In 1906 Confederate veteran General Stephen D. Lee addressed the national convention of the Sons of Confederate Veterans in New Orleans, placing before them what would be known henceforth as the "charge," summarizing the purposes and goals of the Sons (then a relatively new organization only ten years old). Those brief words of General S. D. Lee bear repeating:

To you, Sons of Confederate Veterans, we will commit the vindication of the cause for which we fought. To your strength will be given the defense of the Confederate soldier's good name, the guardianship of his history, the emulation of his virtues, the perpetuation of those principles which he loved and which you love also, and those ideals which made him glorious and which you also cherish.

For the first seventy-five years of its existence the SCV was mostly concerned with memory, with keeping alive the memory of the exploits and accomplishments of our ancestors; with commemorating their service and sacrifice; with retelling their momentous odyssey in books and articles and speeches; and in inspiring new generations of Southerners (and Americans generally) to emulate their virtues. By the 1970s and 1980s many of the symbols and much of the history that Southern folk had taken for granted over the years began to be questioned, disputed, and attacked. Indeed, Southern and Confederate culture, itself, came under a barrage of assaults on many fronts. Many in the so- called "civil rights" movements of the 1960s were not content to simply press for reasonable legal and constitutional changes; rather, some saw the resulting upheaval as an opportunity to demolish and eliminate just about ALL of Confederate culture and heritage--and to make some money in the process. Like the English bands that played "The World Turned Upside Down" at Yorktown in 1781, Southerners witnessed their world turned upside down and the denigration of almost anything and everything "Confederate."

Prior to 1990 the SCV had concentrated most of its efforts on the goal of commemorating Confederate veterans, their history and heritage, and in telling their story. But Stephen D. Lee's charge demanded that latter-day sons also, when required, defend the PRINCIPLES that their forefathers advanced. What are those principles that General Lee referred to? The late historian/author Professor M. E. Bradford, among others, summed them up: a belief that tradition should be our guide constitutionally and socially, a stout defense of the rights of the states, a strongly religious conception of civil society, a reliance on communities and families as basic to society and the social order, and opposition to egalitarianism politically and socially. All of our ancestors would have subscribed to these tenets, whether "old" Whig or Democrat, "fire- eater" or "conservative."

Increasingly, throughout the 1990s to the present the SCV has been forced to defend the principles about which General Lee spoke and three hundred thousand Southern boys gave their lives to defend. Composed of lineal descendants of the veterans of 1861-1865, the SCV is the largest Southern heritage organization in the nation, and it occupies a unique position in the increasingly bitter battle for Southern and Confederate heritage and culture. The defense of that heritage has brought the SCV squarely into conflict with those who not only want to eliminate Southern symbols, but who also wish to purge and destroy Southern culture itself, the Southern way of life. Those symbols will cease to have meaning if the culture and heritage they represent, the ideas they stand for, are no longer celebrated, believed, and felt. That is why the SCV has not only stoutheartedly opposed such things as the lowering of historic flags from official buildings and the elimination of "rebel" mascots, but has also assisted Southern citizens and students whose rights, culture, and heritage have been attacked and imperiled.

ENTER THE SPLC: Who is Morris Dees?

Morris Seligman Dees was born in Alabama and received a law degree from the University of Alabama. One of his earliest associates was Millard Fuller, who would later found Habitat for Humanity. In 1960 Fuller and Dees formed the law partnership of Dees and Fuller in Montgomery. Their object, as Fuller expresses it in two autobiographical volumes, was "to get rich" and get rich quick. They did this through any number of enterprises: selling cookbooks, toothbrushes, tractor cushions--anything that would make money. (2) In his book Love In the Mortar Joints Fuller states: "Morris Dees and I, from the first day of our partnership, shared one overriding purpose: to make a pile of money. We were not particular about how we did it; we just wanted to be independently rich. During the eight years we worked together we never wavered in that resolve." But Fuller grew disenchanted with that lifestyle: "But everything has a price," he recounts. "And I paid for our success in several ways. One price I paid was estrangement from the church." (3) In a few years Fuller left the partnership and dedicated his life to a new, more altruistic cause: Habitat for Humanity.

Dees, meanwhile, began raking in the bucks--and seeking to make friends in high places. While segregation was still the law of the land he had supported and worked in a campaign for Governor George Wallace, and his law firm was involved in defending a man charged with beating one of the Freedom Riders during the 1961 Montgomery "freedom" bus rides. The legal fee, states Fuller, "was paid by the Klan and the White Citizen's Council."(4)

But times were changing, and Morris Dees could read the signs. By 1971 Dees had been "reborn" as "defender" of civil rights; in that year he, Julian Bond, and Joseph Levin founded the Southern Poverty Law Center to serve as a "civil rights law firm" and promote social justice. (Bond would resign from the SPLC when it became apparent that his presence was deterring contributions by liberal Jewish donors) (5) In 1972 Dees served as a fundraiser for presidential candidate George McGovern and proved extremely adept at direct-mail solicitations; according to journalist John Edgerton in an article, "Poverty Palace: How the SPLC Got Rich Fighting the Klan," published in the liberal magazine The Progressive, Dees raised some $24 million for the McGovern campaign.(6) By 1975 Morris Dees had established himself (and the SPLC) as a leading light among "professional" civil rights advocates.

THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS: The Joan Little Case and Beyond

A major opportunity for national prominence came Morris Dees' way in 1975 with the infamous Joan Little case in Washington, North Carolina. The facts of the case were well reported at the time: Little, a black woman and convicted felon, was apparently approached by her white jailor for sexual favors, whereupon she stabbed and killed him with an ice pick. The case immediately was made a cause celebre by leftwing groups and the Communist Party and by a sympathetic press nationwide. Dees and the SPLC were involved in Little's defense, along with another high-profile "professional" civil rights attorney, Jerry Paul. Paul boasted that the defense team had "orchestrated the press." As correspondent Mark Pinsky later wrote in the Columbia Journalism Review, "…the great untold (or unreported) story of the Joan Little trial, which I first learned from the members of the defense law firm and defense committee [italics mine], was the role of the Communist Party…controlling the entire (and considerable) political movement surrounding the case [….] Party members were visible and influential on the defense committee…."(7) Rallies in support of Little raised large sums of money, despite, states Pinsky, "persistent charges of large-scale [financial] mismanagement and misappropriation…."(8)

During the trial Dees revealed just how far he was ready to go to succeed. He attempted to bribe a witness---suborn perjury. He was arrested and removed from the court. While the felony charge was later dropped, presiding judge Hamilton Hobgood refused to re-admit Dees to the case, a refusal that was upheld on appeal when the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear his appeal.(9)

The 1975 perjury arrest was not the last time that Dees and the SPLC would be charged with bribing a witness to advance an agenda. In 1990 Dees and the SPLC sued well-known West Coast racialist Tom Metzger with the object of putting Metzger and his various enterprises out of business by destroying him financially. This famous case, "putting hate on trial" as it was called by the media, involved charges that Metzger inspired skinheads to fatally beat an Ethiopian immigrant. Greg Withrow and David Mazella were prosecution witnesses for Dees. Withrow also described in lurid detail how he himself was nailed to a cross on August 8, 1987. Because of his testimony Withrow became something of a celebrity; he appeared on the "Oprah" Winfree program and was sponsored on an "anti-hate" tour by the Anti-Defamation League.(10) But in a report published on August 25, 2001, The San Diego Union-Tribune revealed that Withrow had recanted his testimony and that he was suing Dees, the SPLC, and the ADL for $32 million in damages. Withrow declared that the story of the crucifixion was fabricated, and additionally that Dees paid him $1,500 for perjured testimony in the trial; he added that Dees also paid the other prosecution witness, David Mazella, as well.(11) Charges of perjury are not the only legal problems that Morris Dees has had. In 1979 Maureene Bass Dees, his ex-wife, sued him, alleging instances when Dees had committed incest with his stepdaughter and future daughter-in-law. At least once he was alleged to have engaged in homosexual conduct.(12)

USING HATE TO GET RICH: Dees the Hustler

In his two autobiographical volumes, Love In the Mortar Joints and Bokotola, Habitat for Humanity founder Millard Fuller offers a fascinating portrait of Morris Dees, a man on the make, a man whose goal was to make money, and lots of it, and to have friends in high places. Although the Southern Poverty Law Center was founded ostensibly as a "civil rights" organization to do such things as defend prisoners who faced the death penalty or sue on behalf of those suffering from discrimination, the Dees organization quickly became the richest and most powerful organization of its kind in the United States. According to investigative journalist Ken Silverstein in a major report published in Harper's Magazine (November, 2000) the SPLC counted (in 2000) assets of well over $120 million.(13) Most of this is raised through direct mail solicitations, and very little of it is spent on behalf of the "poor, downtrodden, and oppressed." Most of the solicited millions remain in the hands of Dees and the SPLC. In 1998 the American Institute of Philanthropy, which evaluates the stewardship of charitable organizations, gave the SPLC an "F" rating in its administration of its funds.(14) A former associate, Millard Farmer, has stated: "He's the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker of the civil rights movement, though I don't mean to malign Jim and Tammy Faye."(15)

Let's examine the methods of Dees and the SPLC.

From its beginning the SPLC created an easy target: the Ku Klux Klan. Never mind that the Klan, by the late 1970s and 1980s, was splintered into dozens of dwindling groups, down to less than 2,000 members nationwide, with almost no power or influence. As Ken Silverstein relates, "the news of a declining Klan does not make for inclining donations to Morris Dees and Co., which is why the SPLC honors nearly every nationally covered 'hate crime' with direct-mail alarums full of nightmarish invocations of armed Klan paramilitary forces' and 'violent neo-Nazi extremists,' and why Dees does legal battle with almost exclusively with mediagenic villains…." (16) In his famous lawsuit against the United Klans of America in 1987, Dees won a judgment of $7 million on behalf of Beulah Mae Donald, whose son had been killed by individual Klansmen. The Klan's total assets amounted to one warehouse, the sale of which netted Donald damages of $51,875. But the SPLC in a direct-mail campaign implied that it was forcing the Klan to pay Mrs. Donald the full amount. It used the Donald killing (including a lurid photograph of her dead son) to raise an additional $9 million. Mrs. Donald got nothing.(17)

In February 1994 two investigative reporters for The Montgomery Advertiser, Dan Morse and Greg Jaffe, published a revelatory series of articles on the SPLC, Morris Dees, and their fundraising tactics.(18) According to three former SPLC attorneys interviewed for the series, Dees selected the Klan as a target because he knew that it would bring in tens of millions of dollars from conscience-ridden liberals across the nation. "The fundraising letters would make it seem to people who really didn't know the South as if the Klan was out of control…And so he (Dees) could get Northerners who really didn't know much about the South to give him money," Deborah Ellis, former SPLC attorney told The Montgomery Advertiser reporters. "The market is still wide open for the product, which is black pain and white guilt," the article quotes Gloria Browne, another former SPLC attorney, as saying.(19)

The Montgomery Advertiser's reporters found that because of his fundraising practices a number of Dees' associates left the SPLC in disgust. Former SPLC associate Courtney Mullin declared of Dees, that he is "…not immoral, he's amoral…I hesitate to say the words that I want to say because they sound so far out, but I really think the Center--in so far as Morris embodies the Center--is evil. They pretend to be on a side that has moral underpinnings (but) they do damage by their dishonesty….I mean the little old lady from North Carolina sends her $5 thinking that she's going to help…then it's just going to line the coffers of the Southern Poverty Law Center so they can have the most beautiful building in the world and have all this money in the bank. That's wrong."(20) In 1986 the SPLC's entire legal staff resigned in protest over Dees' refusal to address the issues of homelessness, voter registration, and affirmative action which they considered more important to poor minorities-but much less lucrative than appealing to largely white benefactors about the evils of the Klan.(21)

In fact, according to another story published in The Birmingham News, the SPLC had few minority employees on its staff and the ones working there were unhappy. (22) Over its nearly three decades of operation the SPLC had hired only two black attorneys, both of whom had left disillusioned. Of the thirteen former black employees interviewed by The Montgomery Advertiser, twelve complained of racial problems while at the SPLC, problems which ranged from a paternalistic attitude to racial slurs.(23)

The SPLC spends twice as much (1999 figures) on fundraising as it does on legal services for civil rights abuse "victims."(24) In a random survey of regular donors who contributed to the SPLC, The Montgomery Advertiser found that most had no idea the Center was so wealthy. Indeed, the American Institute of Philanthropy estimates that the SPLC could operate normally for almost five years without raising one additional tax-exempt penny from well-meaning donors! (25) Despite its affluence the Center files relatively few lawsuits against "hate" groups, and those are generally high profile, money making ones. Yet the SPLC continues to solicit contributions "aggressively and effectively." Reporters Morse and Jaffe report that "three nationwide organizations that monitor charities have criticized the Law Center for misleading donors and spending too little on programs."(26)

The rash of alleged Southern black church burnings in 1996 gave Morris Dees and the SPLC another opportunity to use supposed "hate" for profit. At the time he claimed that the burnings were the work of a conspiracy of Southern "white extremists" [the Klan and others of like mind]. But subsequent investigation by a federal commission found no conspiracy; in fact, most of the burnings had nothing to do with "white extremists" at all. The Charlotte Observer concluded that Dees and the SPLC had "misinformed the media."(27) Reporter Andrea Stone in USA Today admitted that, "…some black civil rights leaders…say Dees raises millions by exaggerating the threat of hate groups. For instance, in a recent report on arsons at black churches in the South, his…newsletter included five 1990 fires in Kentucky. The article doesn't mention they were set by a black man."(28) No wonder another Dees associate, Stephen Bight of the Southern Center for Human Rights, said of Dees, "[he] is a fraud who has milked a lot of very wonderful well-intentioned people. If it's got headlines, Morris is there."(29)

CREATING HATE WHERE NONE EXISTS

Over the years Morris Dees and the SPLC have searched diligently for "hate groups" to expose and then use in fundraising schemes. Many of the targeted groups are not "hate groups" at all; some exist only on paper, or only consist of a hand full of members. That hasn't stopped the SPLC. Soon after the infamous Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh, the SPLC mailed out a solicitation linking McVeigh to "militia groups." In the best traditions of "yellow journalism" the SPLC screamed that the "militia movement" counted perhaps 40,000 members, mostly armed, and a majority linked to the Klan.(30) But subsequently Federal investigators found no connection between McVeigh and any militia group. Indeed, researcher Laird Wilcox estimated that members in such groups numbered only around 7,000, and most of them were not focussed on race or violence, but on constitutional issues.(31) An FBI spokesman added that his agency did not regard the militia movement as a danger.(32)

More recently the SPLC claimed that Ohio had become a hotbed for rightwing "hate" groups. It listed forty such groups in the state, while a similar organization, the Center for New Community, declared that seventy- three "hate" groups had set up shop in the Buckeye State. David Martin, an investigative reporter for the Cleveland Scene checked those claims and found them woefully exaggerated and disingenuous. Instead of the "haven for hate" claimed by the SPLC, Martin found that most of the cited groups were marginal, minuscule, and practically non-existent. One of the "groups" listed was a ninety-year-old sight-impaired man who had once published a newsletter.(33) Asked about the prevalence of such groups in the state, Ted Almay, superintendent of the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation, replied: "I don't think there are 73 people in Ohio, let alone 73 groups" that fit that definition.(34) But don't ask the SPLC to tell the real story when a money-raising exaggeration will do.

REACHING STUDENTS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT

One method the SPLC uses to spread its "anti-hate" message is its highly advertised "Teaching Tolerance" educational kit for schools and parent groups. Featuring a curriculum suitable for all levels in the classroom, "Teaching Tolerance" is touted as a $325 value "absolutely free to any school on request"- -but for the taker, only "at cost"--that is, $30 a kit.(35) Instructional materials for teachers train them on how to completely remold--perhaps the word should be "brainwash"--their students by combating "hate" speech, various stereotypes, religious "bias," and so on. One element, titled appropriately, "I Spy Sexism," encourages students to become "conditioned" to recognize "sexism, racism, classism, and homophobia" among their fellow classmates and denounce it and "do something." Another element encourages "creating a safe environment for gay and lesbian students." Traditional norms of behavior and traditional religion are attacked as intolerant and prejudiced. There is even a component titled "Writing for Change," that is aimed at fighting prejudice and discrimination by "deconstructing" the English language and the manner in which we write sentences--so as to avoid "hierarchy" and "avoid assumptions based on factors like age and race." Students are exhorted to explore "the impact of homophobia and heterosexism" in writing, while encouraged to become aware of "perceptions of diversity."(36) "Teaching Tolerance" is a supreme example of the SPLC raising hundreds of thousands of dollars from well-intentioned educators and parents while spreading cultural Marxism to thousands of America's schoolrooms.

For years the SPLC has offered propaganda and programs to train law enforcement to recognize and deal with "hate groups." Recently, the SPLC, in collaboration with Auburn University-Montgomery and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) launched an online "hate-crime" training course. The course, "Introduction to Hate and Bias Crimes," offers law enforcement officials college credit and continuing education credits, as well as official FLETC recognition. For a mere $118 (with the SPLC providing scholarships of up to 50% of the cost) qualified law enforcement personnel can enroll in the online semester course.(37) No doubt the officers will be "sensitized" appropriately through the ministrations of Dees and company.

NO ENEMIES ON THE LEFT

The SPLC is a self-proclaimed defender of civil rights and "watchdog" against "hate" and "extremism," but what strikes many observers as curious is that just about all of the group's enemies are on the political right-wing. And, indeed, as the list of tried-and-true familiar targets--the Klan (now practically moribund), Aryan Nations (similarly almost non-existent), and various skinhead groups--becomes less and less credible, the SPLC has widened its reach and attempted to tie in conservative groups like the Council of Conservative Citizens and the League of the South: these groups and others like them have become the "new" Klans, grist for the SPLC's direct-mail solicitations! Legitimate and mainstream questions such as immigration policy, English as our national language, gay rights, abortion, and "multiculturalism" now figure in SPLC Intelligence Reports as criteria for determining if someone or some group is "extreme" or "racist" or not.(38)

Ominously, the SPLC has also begun to aim its judicial venom at orthodox Christians. In a letter dated July 16, 2002, Dees outlined to a representative of the Americans United for Separation of Church and State a legal strategy to attack and defame Judge Roy Moore, the famous Alabama judge who placed a Ten Commandments monument in the halls of the Alabama State Supreme Court. In his comments Dees details a plan to portray Judge Moors as a "bigot" and a "lone religious nut in partnership with a fanatical church [Dr. D. James Kennedy and the Presbyterian Church in America!]. This is the story that will make this case so dirty that no appeals court will reverse [it]…."(39) Interestingly enough, although numerous left-wing organizations promote class hatred and racial antagonism, such groups normally don't appear on the SPLC's web site as "hate" groups. The SPLC even endorses the work of some extreme left- wing organizations, terming them "human rights" groups. Researcher Laird Wilcox gives examples of two such radical left groups, the Center for Democratic Renewal of Atlanta and the Political Research Associates of Somerville, Massachusetts, both of which have had identifiable and long-time Marxist connections.(40)

"LINKISM" AND VICARIOUS LIABILITY

Even more disturbing perhaps are some of the SPLC's legal tactics. The Center has long been notorious for suing (and bankrupting) an entire organization for the actions of a lone, individual member or members. Its lawsuits against Aryan Nations, the United Klans of America, and the Tom Metzger organization fall into that category. Such practices--termed legally "vicarious liability"-- should cause serious alarm with civil libertarians, as Ken Silverstein recounts in Harper's. The SPLC is also notorious for spying and preparing dossiers on private citizens who are supposedly "linked" to "hate" groups and then sharing its "files" on these "hate-mongers" with law enforcement agencies and a receptive news media.(41) Favorite SPLC "spokesmen" such as publications editor Mark Potok show up repeatedly in print and on the air to offer "comment" on individuals and groups named on the SPLC's laundry list of "hate" organizations. In many cases, such comments are taken as gospel and there is little opportunity to rebut the criticism once uttered. Once the charge is made, it is difficult to explain or counter the (mis-) information.

The SPLC skillfully employs what can be termed "linkism." The tactic of "linkism" is simple: publish a list of individual members of one organization, indicate their personal memberships (even if long expired or only nominal) in other organizations, identify these other organizations as "hate" groups, and, voila, the first organization becomes, ipso facto, a "hate" organization as well. In other words, targeted individuals are guilty by association. How is this different from the worst kind of witch-hunting?

THE SONS OF CONFEDERATE VETERANS: SPLC's New Target

Recently the SPLC has begun to direct these tactics against the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Certain prominent members of the organization have been targeted--placed between the crosshairs would better describe it. Dossiers have obviously been prepared, shaped accordingly with the "facts" carefully skewed to place the members in the worst possible light. Negative and unflattering "exposes" are next published in the SPLC's Intelligence Report and then "picked up" by an amenable (or willingly collaborative) press. In its Summer 2000 issue the Intelligence Report published two major attack articles, both implying that the SCV was being taken over by what it termed "neo- Confederates": "A neo-Confederate movement, increasingly rife with white supremacists and racist ideology," it cries, "is growing across America."(42) Both the SCV and the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC) were being transformed into "white supremacist" groups in contradistinction to what the SPLC defines as their historic purpose of being "interested only in Civil War remembrance."(43) The SPLC apparently has not read General Stephen D. Lee's charge to the Sons, or perhaps it doesn't understand that the SCV defends the honor of its Confederate ancestors not just by "remembering them," but by advancing the constitutional principles and heritage they advanced one hundred and forty years ago.

Apparently any attempt by the SCV or UDC to defend Confederate heritage, to defend the flying of the Battle Flag, to intervene on behalf of the rights of students' free speech, or to use the constitutionally guaranteed avenues of legal litigation to defend these rights, is "racist" or "hate speech" in the eyes of the SPLC.

In the Spring 2002 issue of Intelligence Report the Center listed dozens of SCV officers whom it claimed belonged to what were "listed by the SPLC as hate groups."(44) Then, during the Summer of 2002 the SPLC's Mark Potok appeared on CBS Evening News, right before the SCV's national convention in Memphis, Tennessee, to offer negative comments on the "direction" of the SCV. Shortly thereafter attack articles showed up in the pages of a leftwing weekly in North Carolina, The Independent, and then in the pages of the more established News and Observer (Raleigh, NC)--on each occasion to slander and denigrate SCV members and the organization as a whole.(45) The tactics of guilt by association and "linkism" were clearly in evidence. The SCV had now become a primary target of Morris Dees and the SPLC.

INACTIVITY IS NOT AN OPTION

Unlike the SPLC's negative characterization, the Sons of Confederate Veterans is NOT an "extremist" or "racist" group. For over one hundred years it has honored both the memory AND the ideals of the Confederate soldier. But historical memory is NOT the SCV's only role; the SCV is NOT simply a "civil war roundtable" or "history club." The SCV, it is true, supports numerous educational and scholarship programs for students, is deeply involved in historic preservation activities, and supports historical awareness programs across the nation. But SCV members also love and will defend their precious patrimony, for their heritage is a rich and noble one that has been handed down to them from the hardy pioneers who settled at Jamestown, Port Royal, Bath Town, Savannah, New Orleans, and St. Mary's, or who came down the Great Wagon Road to the fertile Carolina Piedmont.

On the Confederate States national seal is the figure of a mounted President George Washington. Like their forbears of 1860-1861, the descendants of those reluctant warriors see themselves in a direct line from Washington, Madison, Jefferson, and so many others, defending the same principles and the same inherited cultural legacy. They want only to live those same principles and pass that heritage on to their children. They reject the vicious attacks of the SPLC and similar groups. And they ask that fair-minded fellow citizens, news media and law enforcement officials examine the facts and review the abundant information about the primary source of those attacks: Morris Dees and his Southern Poverty Law Center.

NOTES:

(1) See the articles "Rebels with a Cause," Intelligence Report (Summer 2000); "The Neo-Confederates," Intelligence Report (Summer 2000); and "A House Divided," Intelligence Report (Spring 2000). Intelligence Report is the quarterly journal of the SPLC, and increasingly it has taken aim at the SCV.

(2) Millard Fuller. Bokotola (Chicago: Association Press/Follett Publishing Company, 1977), 3-4.

(3) Fuller. Love in the Mortar Joints (Chicago: Association Press/Follett Publishing Company, 1980), 41-42.

(4) Ibid., 47.

(5) John Edgerton, "Poverty Palace: How the Southern Poverty Law Center Got Rich Fighting the Klan," The Progressive (July 1988), 14-16.

(6) Ibid., 16.

(7) Mark Pinsky, "Reflections on Joan Little," Columbia Journalism Review (March/April 1976), 30-31.

(8) Ibid., 31.

(9) Burlington Times News (Burlington, NC), July 30, 1975. See also Edgerton, 16. (10) Kelly Thornton, "Skinhead Reveals Betrayal of Movement Was All a Ploy," San Diego Union-Tribune (San Diego, CA.), August 25, 2001. The Anti-Defamation League places the Confederate Battle Flag (and the Celtic Cross) on its list of racist "hate" symbols. See "Hate On Display: A Visual Database of Extremist Symbols, Logos and Tattoos," at www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_confederate_flag.asp.

(11) Ibid. See also "Suing Hate Groups: What the Law Center Has Accomplished," The Montgomery Advertiser (Montgomery, AL.), February 15, 1994, and Southern Events, 7, 1.I.

(12) The appeals case is cited as Alabama Court of Civil Appeals CIV 2114 (1979), and can be found on the web at: www.zianet.com/wblase/endtimes/dees1.htm.

(13) Ken Silverstein, "The Church of Morris Dees: How the Southern Poverty Profits from Intolerance," Harper's Magazine (November 2000), 56.

(14) See American Institute of Philanthropy, AIP Charity Rating Guide and Watchdog Report (Spring 1998) and susequent issues.

(15) Cited by Ken Silverstein, 54.

(16) Ibid.

(17) See the detailed article on this case, Dan Morse, "Center Made Millions Selling the Donald Case," The Montgomery Advertiser (Montgomery, AL.), February 15, 1994.

(18) See Dan Morse and Greg Jaffe, "Rising Fortunes: Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 13-15 1994. The series ran over a period of three days, beginning with a Sunday front page spread. Among the various stories in the series are: Morse and Jaffe, "Charity of Riches," on February 13; Morse and Jaffe, "Critics Question $52 Million Reserve, Tactics of Wealthiest Civil Right Group," February 13; Jaffe, "Number of Charities Soars, Overwhelming Regulators," February 13; "Center Refuses Access to Financial, Board Records," February 13; Morse, "Opportunist or Crusader?", February 14; Morse, "Morris Dees Trades Cookbook for Law Book," February 14; Morse and Jaffe, "Dees Angers Civil Rights Leaders," February 14; Morse, "Salesman Dees Prone to 'Lapse into Hyperbole,' Some Say," February 14; Morse, "Critics: Center Fighting Shadows," February 15; Morse, "Center Made Millions Selling the Donald Case," February 15; Morse, "Center's Klanwatch Tracks Rainbow of Hate Crimes," February 15; Morse and Jaffe, "Klan Focus Triggers Legal Staff Defections," February 15; and "Suing Hate Groups: What the Center has Accomplished," February 15.

(19) Morse and Jaffe, "Charity of Riches," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 13, 1994.

(20) Morse, "Opportunist or Crusader," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 14, 1994. Mullin continues: "He fools so many people; he seems so committed. But he's so dishonest…I never saw any examples of him doing something because he had a moral belief. He was simply doing things to see what he could get of them." (Morse, "Opportunist or Crusader," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 14.)

(21) Silverstein, 56. A full discussion of the resignations and disputes with Dees' direction can be found in Morse and Jaffe, "Klan Focus Triggers Legal Staff Defections," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 14, 1994.

(22) The Birmingham News (Birmingham, AL.), February 17, 1994.

(23) Morse and Jaffe, "Charity of Riches," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 13, 1994.

(24) Silverstein, 56.

(25) Silverstein, 56, and Morse and Jaffe, "Charity of Riches," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 13, 1994.

(26) Morse and Jaffe, "Charity of Riches," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 13, 1994.

(27) The Charlotte Observer (Charlotte, NC), October 10, 1996.

(28) Andrea Stone, "Morris Dees: At the Center of the Racial Storm," USA Today, August 3, 1996, A-7.

(29) Ibid.

(30) Dick Foster, "10 Militias at Home in Colorado," Rocky Mountain News (Denver, CO.), September 6, 1995.

(31) Laird Wilcox. The Watchdogs: A Close Look at the Anti-Racist "Watchdog" Groups (Olathe, KS: Editorial Research Service), 53.

(32) David Bresnahan, "FBI Spy 'Fronts'," 1999 WorldNetDaily, statement by Greg Rampton, FBI special agent in charge of the Denver office.

(33) David Martin, "White Power Outage," Cleveland Scene (Cleveland, OH), March 7, 2002.

(34) Cited in Martin, "White Power Outage."

(35) Silverstein, 55. See also the "Teaching Tolerance" web link on the SPLC web page.

(36) See "Writing for Change" link at www.tolerance.org/teach/expand/wfc/wfc_sctn1_4html.

(37) See the article "Center Launches Online Hate-Crime Training" in the Winter 2001 issue of the Intelligence Report; also see the link www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-hatetraining.html.

(38) See the recent issues of the Intelligence Report, previously cited, and the "Teaching Tolerance" web link for a list of all the new sins that now figure as verboten.

(39) Quoted in "Southern Poverty Law Center Strategy to Destroy Judge Roy Moore," Press Release, September 24, 2002, by the Christian Coalition of Alabama (John W. Giles, press spokesman).

(40) Wilcox, 59-82.

(41) Silverstein, 56.

(42) See "Rebels with a Cause" and "The Neo-Confederates" in the Intelligence Report (Summer 2000).

(43) See the segments on the SCV and UDC in "The Neo-Confederates," Intelligence Report (Summer 2000).

(44) See "Hate in the Ranks," Intelligence Report (Spring 2002), which lists approximately forty SCV members who are cited as belonging to "hate" groups by the SPLC.

(45) The CBS Evening News segment, "Eye on America," was aired on July 26, 2002. See Jon Elliston, "Dueling Rebs," The Independent (Durham, NC), August 21- 27, 2002, 12-13, and various letters of response ("Back Talk," The Independent, August 28-September 3, 2002, and "Back Talk," The Independent, September 4-10, 2002). See Dan Gearino, "A Thin Gray Line, The News and Observer (Raleigh, NC), Sunday Journal, 1D-4D, and letter to the editor responses to the article in The News and Observer, August 28 and September 1, 2002

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   10:30:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

you've got a short attention span and I've got a life, so lets forget it, shall we?

You're not really on these forums to discuss news and things, are you? Are you on them because you enjoy making little passive-aggressive remarks, knowing that it's impossible for you to suffer any physical consequences because the internet creates a safe distance? I can't think of any other reason.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   10:35:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I forget who it was, but someone once said there are only two types of Klan members - gas station attendents and government informants. The government people are easy to spot, they're the ones paying membership dues

Dak, you've hit the nail on the head with this comment. If there wasn't a Klan, it would be invented as a fund raising tool for the SPLC-types. My best guess is that the actual numbers of 'real' members could fill a phone booth. *Anyone* who does organized groups should realize they're infiltrated. I think most folks do.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-04-15   10:36:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thanks CWRWinger. If you have a link, could you copy/paste it?

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   10:47:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I agree, see my post #11 above.

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   10:52:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you have a link, could you copy/paste it?

I didn't save the link. It came from "The Southern Mercury" website. I'll see if I can find it.

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   10:54:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

*Anyone* who does organized groups should realize they're infiltrated.

Infiltrated? I'm beginning to think they are nothing but government run agencies that exist for no other reason than to brainwash the sheeple.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   10:56:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

An FBI spokesman added that his agency did not regard the militia movement as a danger.(32)

Wow, refreshing honesty. The militia movement had a brief life, which ended immediately after OKC. Speaking of OKC, I’ll never understand why McVeigh went to his grave so silently. Others were involved, yet he chose to keep a cork in his mouth. Same with Nichols, as far as I can see.

The one concept that frightens the PTB is a spontaneous reaction to an event(s). The minutemen are such a group/reaction. Even if they are infiltrated (they no doubt are), there isn't anything worth reporting on from what I see. They’re above board and well run. Of course, the agent provocateur is always a worry. I pray it remains successful. To date, they’ve hit a homerun.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-04-15   11:15:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm beginning to think they (groups) are nothing but government run agencies

The ratio of agent to honest citizen is likely 2 to 1 in favor of the government. I'm sure this isn't anything new to folks like us. Just read some other forums. Folks ("conservatives") want us in jail for opposing Bush. Eff them. As long as the net remains free, the truth is a powerful weapon and it's so much fun burning their asses with fact :)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-04-15   11:20:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Indeed, researcher Laird Wilcox estimated that members in such groups numbered only around 7,000, and most of them were not focussed on race or violence, but on constitutional issues.(31)

The militia movement had a brief life, which ended immediately after OKC.
Which means the effort by the govt was a success.

I’ll never understand why McVeigh went to his grave so silently.
I suspect they threatened him with his family. (Just a guess).

The one concept that frightens the PTB is a spontaneous reaction to an event(s). The minutemen are such a group/reaction. Even if they are infiltrated (they no doubt are), there isn't anything worth reporting on from what I see. They’re above board and well run. Of course, the agent provocateur is always a worry. I pray it remains successful. To date, they’ve hit a homerun.
Excellent points. I'm praying too.

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   11:25:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Keeping on the infiltration/misinformation theme. AM talk radio has become 'Party' radio, as in Republican party. There is no talk associated with it, unless GOP talking points are a consideration. I happened to turn on Limbaugh Monday during a walk. He opened his show talking about his attendance at an event sponsored by the magazine Cigar Aficionado. The proceeds of the funds raised were going to support cancer research. Hello....smoking cigars...and a cancer fund raiser? That's an example how far out of the mainstream this former conservative firebrand has fallen.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-04-15   12:27:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You're not really on these forums to discuss news and things, are you? Are you on them because you enjoy making little passive-aggressive remarks, knowing that it's impossible for you to suffer any physical consequences because the internet creates a safe distance? I can't think of any other reason.

badeye made an almost identical statement to me, a few weeks ago. is it possible that the two of you agree on something?

there are days when I feel less charitable to simpletons than usual. Your obtuse behavior, I can generally tolerate. Today, however I feel less like explaining my posts in the most elementery of terms.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   12:43:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Some fr love for ya:

Posted on 04/15/2005 11:46:56 AM CDT by eastforker

Here we go again. Greta will have a special this sunday about the OKC bombing. I sugest all newbies refer to all of OKCSubmariner post's to understand what happened there. I miss OKCSUB

Lod  posted on  2005-04-15   13:26:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Neil McIver:

Does it really matter if there are feds posting there?

Damn right it can and does matter. Here's why:

..(he was).. always shouting the loudest of any among his White supremacist cohorts. He drank beer with Skinhead gangs, swapped jokes with them about African-Americans, Hispanics, and Jews, and heard them plot hate crimes and racial assaults. He cruised the Internet, posting racist messages to computer bulletin boards and newsgroups,...

I wonder what would have happened when and if Gold-Lox, you or Jim Rob had banned Finchley or other Feds like him on message boards and newsgroups like LP or FR when they started shouting and spreading rascist hatred against other posters like me who were crtical of the FBI handling of OKC, 1993 WTC, 9-11 etc?

You may have forgotten Neil, but the posters from Consolidated Freeping who posted on FR and LP concocted a fake post to plant on FR and on LP to try to make it look like I was associated with the White Supremicists. honway caught them at it and posted the the proof. Also honway and I detected that the fake posts were assocaited with reporter Jayna Davis and appararently Feds who got a green light back in 2002 after new legislation was passed to allow the Feds to do things (DISRUPT and intentinonaly try to PROVOKE and ENTRAP) on newsgroups previously not allowed by law.

If the Feds call dirty names, disrupt posts, smear posters and make up and plant false posts against honest posters they do not like, and then the poster gets provoked and defends himself even within the rules, the honest poster gets banned (or gets a time out) and his information from reliable news sources gets lost in the disruption. What if the honest poster gets unfairly provoked, smeared and falsely discredited by these dishonest Fed posters so not enough people pay attention to his posts or valid news articles he posts? What happens is they attack and provoke the messenger and disrupt so that not enough of the truth gets through to enough people-especially newcommers.

This has happened to me and malador and others I know of on LP and especially at FR. Maximum Consumption and sinkspur have taken a pro Fed, FBI line, about stories proving wrongdoing by some in the FBI on LP yet have gotten away with ever imaginable disruption tactic and filthy attacks against me and my wife and others and yet they were still allowed to post on LP and FR for a long time.

Fed tax dolars are being used to pay for these dirty tactics and schemes on newsgroups like LP and FR just as surely as it has been proven that Bush ordered many US gov agencies to create and distribute propaganda about his proposals to TV and print media as if they were independent and legitimate when they were not. The Fed bureaucrats under the world government socailsits Bush and Clinton have run AMOK and have no respect for what the Constitution and Bill of Rights say about individual human and civil rights .

Check with honway. I am sure Uncle Bill and Fred Mertz will also recall all of this.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   13:49:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

See reply #61. Thanks.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   13:50:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If the Feds call dirty names, disrupt posts, smear posters and make up and plant false posts against honest posters they do not like, and then the poster gets provoked and defends himself even within the rules, the honest poster gets banned (or gets a time out) and his information from reliable news sources gets lost in the disruption. What if the honest poster gets unfairly provoked, smeared and falsely discredited by these dishonest Fed posters so not enough people pay attention to his posts or valid news articles he posts? What happens is they attack and provoke the messenger and disrupt so that not enough of the truth gets through to enough people-especially newcommers.

ed tax dolars are being used to pay for these dirty tactics and schemes on newsgroups like LP and FR just as surely as it has been proven that Bush ordered many US gov agencies to create and distribute propaganda about his proposals to TV and print media as if they were independent and legitimate when they were not.

I wasnt aware that had happened re you on LP.. But I totally agreed w/you .. they use OUR money to post disinformation not only about issues but about individuals.. disgusting. They use the same type verbage .. the same BS ..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   14:05:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

....the SPLC screamed that the "militia movement" counted perhaps 40,000 members, mostly armed, and a majority linked to the Klan.(30) But subsequently Federal investigators found no connection between McVeigh and any militia group

It was made publiclly known by BATF agents during the fed trial of BATF inforamtn Carol howe that FBI agent Pete Rickles of Tulsa had tried to get Howe killed to keep her from exposing the Fed undercover operation at Elohim City. It was also revealed that Rickles had tried to set up a number of militia members in OK and around the country and had been keeping a complete data base of militia members.

Rickles collaborated with FBI informants and milita leaders John Trochtman of Montana and the head of the OK militia. Rickles OKC FBI agent partner Dan Vogel, tried to lure me into a meeting with all of them in 1996. I immediately and fully informed the Pentagon terror advisor and William Jasper of the operation who recommended that former Marine and Tulsa police oficer Craig Roberts (who had done work for the FBI before) to go in my place. The Feds were really angry because I caught them at their dirty little game. I have never attended a milita meeting anywhere at any time.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   14:05:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I am sure Uncle Bill and Fred Mertz will also recall all of this.

Yes, I recall the general nature of the attacks against you, not all the specifics.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2005-04-15   14:10:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It was made publiclly known by BATF agents during the fed trial of BATF inforamtn Carol howe that FBI agent Pete Rickles of Tulsa had tried to get Howe killed to keep her from exposing the Fed undercover operation at Elohim City. It was also revealed that Rickles had tried to set up a number of militia members in OK and around the country and had been keeping a complete data base of militia members.

Rickles collaborated with FBI informants and milita leaders John Trochtman of Montana and the head of the OK militia. Rickles OKC FBI agent partner Dan Vogel, tried to lure me into a meeting with all of them in 1996. I immediately and fully informed the Pentagon terror advisor and William Jasper of the operation who recommended that former Marine and Tulsa police oficer Craig Roberts (who had done work for the FBI before) to go in my place. The Feds were really angry because I caught them at their dirty little game. I have never attended a milita meeting anywhere at any time.

of course if you would've gone innocently they would've used that to discredit you and probably far worse.. sickening I tell ya.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   14:11:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

See replies 61 and 64. Thanks.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   14:11:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Rickles OKC FBI agent partner Dan Vogel, tried to lure me into a meeting with all of them in 1996. I immediately and fully informed the Pentagon terror advisor and William Jasper of the operation who recommended that former Marine and Tulsa police oficer Craig Roberts (who had done work for the FBI before) to go in my place. The Feds were really angry because I caught them at their dirty little game. I have never attended a milita meeting anywhere at any time.

It may be time to start attending.

Lod  posted on  2005-04-15   14:16:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I wasnt aware that had happened re you on LP.. But I totally agreed w/you .. they use OUR money to post disinformation not only about issues but about individuals.. disgusting. They use the same type verbage .. the same BS .

LOL...you think the gov't. worries about the likes of Conspira-Kooks like him?

Trust me on this, having been around the "patriot movement" for going on 20 years most of us don't even take a LOT of the self-proclaimed conspiracy experts seriously, in fact some of them are more than seriously mental in my experience.

They'll throw every ridiculous theory in the book at their pet subjects, hoping something will stick & give them validity, while the REAL truth gets buried in the shitstorm.

Sometimes I wonder if THEY aren't the REAL mis-information agent provocateurs...

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   14:19:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

LOL...you think the gov't. worries about the likes of Conspira-Kooks like him?

Trust me on this, having been around the "patriot movement" for going on 20 years most of us don't even take a LOT of the self-proclaimed conspiracy experts seriously, in fact some of them are more than seriously mental in my experience.

They'll throw every ridiculous theory in the book at their pet subjects, hoping something will stick & give them validity, while the REAL truth gets buried in the shitstorm.

Sometimes I wonder if THEY aren't the REAL mis-information agent provocateurs...

Yeah they care or they wouldn't be spending OUR tax $$s to discredit them..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   14:32:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It may be time to start attending.

whose side are you on?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   14:38:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Check with honway. I am sure Uncle Bill and Fred Mertz will also recall all of this.

I'm familiar with these online sting operations. YOu will doubtlessly recall the case of Charlie Puckett in 2001 I believe it was. Do you have any links to the threads you mentioned?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   14:41:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Do you know what "Op" means? Try operative.

Don  posted on  2005-04-15   14:43:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Look at my Post 73.

Don  posted on  2005-04-15   14:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Sometimes I wonder if THEY aren't the REAL mis-information agent provocateurs...

No, that's my department. We're watching you.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   14:47:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Yeah they care or they wouldn't be spending OUR tax $$s to discredit them..

Why should they care about BBS boards when they have the Mass Media completely under there thumb?

The person in question here not only has accused me of being a Fed, but also Jayna Davis for cryin-out-loud! LOL

And now he claims John Trochtman was collaberating with the FBI! Having spoke with the man several times I can tell you THAT is most certainly a LIE from the pit of HELL...

If someone really wanted to defeat the elite and their minions, "patriots" they wouldn't be re-hashing something that is a dead horse over & over again (OKC, Flight 800 etc.) they'd be working towards unifying the "patriot" community towards becoming REAL force to be dealt with on a national level, but no...let's stay focused on peripheral subjects digging out details that a LOT of us in the "patriot" movement knew a couple of months after the incident at the Murrah Building.

Yelling at the symptoms all day & night long isn't gonna solve anything...

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   14:52:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

No, that's my department. We're watching you.

LOL...I'm so SCARED!

If you had a clue about me you'd know I'm so deep in the enemie's lair I'm the last thing they have to watch...THEY know EVERY detail of my life.

You should have directed your post to OKC, he's the paranoid here ;-)

BTW, isn't it about time for you to get back to clowning around on the TOS bots thread? Duh!

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   14:57:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you have a link, could you copy/paste it?

The Southern Mercury website, "southernmercury.com", did not archieve the article. I obtained it back in 2003 and saved it.

The link below has a photo of the 2003 magazine issue which features the SPLC article:

http://www.giung.net/sm/index.htm

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   15:00:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I was just messing with you, but thanks for letting everyone see which buttons to push to make you go all spazmoid.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   15:03:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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