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Dead Constitution
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Title: Government thugs handcuff children, kill dog during $60 marijuana raid
Source: Marijuana Policy Project
URL Source: http://www.mpp.org
Published: Sep 28, 2006
Author: Rob Kampia
Post Date: 2006-10-02 17:19:33 by Neil McIver
Ping List: *Marijuana Policy Project*     Subscribe to *Marijuana Policy Project*
Keywords: None
Views: 2770
Comments: 194

I want to share with you a recent horrifying example of our government's war on marijuana users. Get ready to be outraged.

The following is an excerpt from a September 20 article in the "Times Union" in Albany, New York:

"A police strike team raided a woman's Prospect Street apartment and handcuffed her children and killed her dog early Tuesday in a $60 pot bust. The woman called it excessive force and a case of mistaken identity, but officers said they stormed the home for a good reason: One of her sons was selling marijuana there.

The Police Department's tactical squad knocked down the front door of the upstairs apartment at 110 Prospect St. and flooded into the apartment shortly after 6 a.m.

'I heard a big boom. My first reaction was to jump out of bed. We were trying to find where our kids were at and all of a sudden we had guns in our faces,' said 40-year-old Anita Woodyear, who rents the second-floor flat.

During the ensuing chaos, police handcuffed two of the woman's children, Elijah Bradley, 11, and 12-year-old Victoria Perez, and shot at her dog in the kitchen before killing it in the bathroom, Woodyear said.

'That seems like an awful lot of firepower for marijuana,' said Fred Clark of the Schenectady chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. 'That's like spending $125,000 for $5.'

Woodyear said she suspected police had intended to search a neighboring home, but had the wrong address on the search warrant. Neighbors said they suspect illicit drugs are dealt at other homes on the block.

'No apology, no "sorry about your dog",' she said.

But police said they have no reason to apologize. They said they raided the house because Woodyear's 18-year-old son, Israel M. Bradley, sold three plastic bags of marijuana there for $40 on Sept. 15. They allege he sold two other bags of marijuana in the house for $20 on Aug. 28, they said.

In addition, police said Bradley was carrying marijuana in the home on Sept. 1. 'We had the absolute right house. We had the absolute right target,' said Assistant Chief Michael Seber."

Visit http://ny.mpp.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=grKMIYPGIqE&b=1773617&ct=2947891 to read the entire article.

Who do the police think they're helping by breaking down the front door of a family's home, pointing guns in their faces, murdering their dog, and handcuffing the children? Was this for the good of the children? The mother? The neighborhood?

No one wins -- except perhaps for the government thugs who get jacked up on the adrenaline rush that comes from threatening and persecuting others.

We have to stop this madness. We have to change the laws so that government thugs no longer have the legal authority to kick in people's doors to find marijuana.

If you're as outraged by the above story as I am, please turn your anger into action by helping MPP restore sense to our nation's marijuana policies.

Thank you for standing with us in this important fight.

Sincerely,

Rob Kampia
Executive Director
Marijuana Policy Project
Washington, D.C.

P.S. As I've mentioned in previous alerts, a major philanthropist has committed to match the first $3.5 million that MPP can raise from the rest of the planet in 2006. This means that your donation today will be doubled. Subscribe to *Marijuana Policy Project*

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 151.

#4. To: Neil McIver, lodwick, BTP Holdings, Ferret Mike, angle, mehtable, RickyJ, all (#0)

Hell of a story, and it will only get worse; THIS IS WHAT COMES OF LIVING IN THE FEDERAL DISTRICT STATE. And if you do not know what I mean, well, you should by now, because there is no control on this type of behavior in the Federal Zone.

richard9151  posted on  2006-10-02   18:34:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

THIS IS WHAT COMES OF LIVING IN THE FEDERAL DISTRICT STATE. And if you do not know what I mean, well, you should by now, because there is no control on this type of behavior in the Federal Zone.

It is also what comes of living in a tyranny based on the Law Merchant (UCC) and the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution. Once you sign on the dotted line, for anything, especially a SSN, you are presumed to be a beneficiary of the government program or licensing scheme.

I'll make it simple. The government is operating the Treasury account you created when you applied for that SSN. We have a court case which states this but I cannot locate the cite just now.

The state operates under a presumption that you, the live man, are the surety for the fiction of law, or juristic person, which they have created for you by and through those applications for birth registration, SSN, drivers license, etc.

Since the corporate state is a fiction of law, it cannot communicate with a live man, and this is the same for other fictions. That is why these fictions have attorneys to represent them in court proceedings. If you partake of the commercial world you are in their fictional Babylonian system.

We have the solution to this scheme and it is not a silver bullet in and of itself. We know that the common law is a part of it, so we use it and stay out of their administrative law Babylonian jurisdiction.

The Habeas Corpus works in the common law. In their fictional corporate state, Bush has just thrown it on the trash heap of history.

But the key to the commercial scheme is to take control of your fictional entity, sometimes called the Strawman. And we do that with a filing in the UCC and by placing in that filing a Security Agreement which gives us the Priority over any and all claimants, and also makes us the Secured Party in any and all property which we list in that UCC contract.

Not to mention, one of the benefits of this is that we have an Indemnity Bond in that contract which allows us to discharge any debts or claims made against the Strawman in the public sector, which includes public utilities, banks, credit cards and any gov't agency or entity.

I've used this process and it works, even with the IRS. All they need, and what we give them, is a paper, a negotiable instrument, which they use to zero the account. The sad part is that they are making these claims in a fraudulent manner. We have no loss in this instance and the debt is assigned back to the original obligor of the currency, the USG. They created the monster, so now let them live with it.

A simple way to explain this is since the bankruptcy of the U.S. in 1933 and the confiscation of gold as money of account, they have succeeded in doing something which was never possible under the Apportionment Clause of the U.S. Constitution. They have transferred the national debt to the people by and through the use of Federal Reserve Notes. Limited liability is one of the benefits you are presumed to receive from this system which has been foisted on the people.

But, when you use the slave owners note to purchase something, the slave owner still maintains an interest in the property. You have possession and use and that is all. When you register that property, you pledge it to the state and they then use it as collateral to get credit from the bankers to operate. They profit from tricking you into the registration scheme whereby you waive your God-given unalienable rights under the contract. So, next time you get pulled over for speeding, remember that the license and registration gives them subject matter jurisdiction and you are screwed.

For an application for a UCC-1 Financing Statement/Security Agreement/Indemnity Bond Click Here.

But be aware that the address for me in there is old since I have recently moved. If anyone is really interested in this, please send me a PM and I will give you the new address.

Sorry, richard, but, as I see it, what you propose about a constitutional amendment is a distraction and diversion which will waste time and resources in our fight to take back this country and put the rule of law back in the hands of the people.

The Federal Districts exist as an overlay, but are only lawful if you enter their jurisdiction. The trick is to stay out of them if at all possible since you have no rights there. But, the U.S. District Courts do exist for a lawful purpose and that is to settle disputes between parties in different states or between citizens and other government entities. What we need to ask ourselves is if we wish to claim to be a 14th Amendment civil rights citizen. There are advantages but then again, there are disadvantages as well.

Sometimes we have no choice since the state courts are so utterly corrupt at the lower levels. Not always, but for the most part. As an example, we have a judge here in a nearby county who was asked, "Why is there so much injustice in the courts?" He answered without hesitation, "Because the people allow it." So it goes for all levels of government.

"Now more than ever before, the people are responsible for the character of their Congress. If that body be ignorant, reckless, and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness, and corruption. If it be intelligent, brave, and pure, it is because the people demand these high qualities to represent them in the national legislature." James Garfield

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-10-02   22:01:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Sorry, richard, but, as I see it, what you propose about a constitutional amendment

Somehow I missed that. I'd like to read the exact wording of Richard's proposed amendment.

Where is it?

wbales  posted on  2006-10-02   22:36:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Where is it?

Click on his screen name and see his home page.

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-10-02   22:40:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

OK.

I decided to ignore this:

These states are foreign governments with respect to the United States. They are also referred to as "foreign countries" in 28 U.S.C. §297 and 26 CFR §1.911- 2(h) and "foreign states" in 28 U.S.C. §1603.

which is patently WRONG and get to this:

Constitution of the United States

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17;

17. To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards, and other needful buildings: And,

The new Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 shall read;

17. To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, SUBJECT ONLY TO THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards, and other needful buildings: And,

So, Richard is proposing to add "SUBJECT ONLY TO THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION" to the constitutional clause establishing Washington, DC as the seat of the federal government and giving the federal government authority over its federal military bases, federal parks, lands, and so forth wherever so situate.

For one, "SUBJECT ONLY TO THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION" seems superfluous. Second, it is arbitrary and vague.

What is the intent of adding this language? That federal government controlled lands within the United States are subject to the authority of the US Constitution?? That any and all state law is invalid/inapplicable to and within such areas??

What, exactly and specifically, is attempting to be accomplished by adding this language?

This is confusing.

wbales  posted on  2006-10-02   22:55:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I decided to ignore this:

These states are foreign governments with respect to the United States. They are also referred to as "foreign countries" in 28 U.S.C. §297 and 26 CFR §1.911- 2(h) and "foreign states" in 28 U.S.C. §1603.

which is patently WRONG

I have not gone to check on those parts of the code. So I cannot say exactly what is in there.

But it is a fact that we have two parallel jursidictions, one is for the federal state which encompasses the District of Colombia and all of the territories and other federal posessions, forts, federal buildings, etc. And the other is the jurisdiction for the several states of the union.

This is a well founded fact of the law in this nation and there are many court cases which show this to be true. American Jurisprudence would be the place to look for this. For the purposes of distinguishing these two separate jurisdictions, there is a court case which I recall seeing that says specifically that the federal jurisdiction is foreign to that of the several states. Hence, the federal government is foreign to that of the states.

The two jurisdictions cannot be mixed. And it is from this that there arises much confusion. The intent of Congress when it passes a law is that the jurisdiction is only for one or the other, or both.

Any law which is applied to a jurisdiction to which it cannot be done under this constitutional separation, would be struck down by the courts. The problem is that many of these laws which are misapplied are never challenged in court. Therein lies the problem. And also the dishonest nature of the bureaucracy which does these things.

BTW, this jurisdictional issue has been proven by the Congressional Research Bureau time and again. When the word "state" is used in legislation, it does not always have one meaning. The whole law must be read to bring this into context.

For one, "SUBJECT ONLY TO THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION" seems superfluous. Second, it is arbitrary and vague.

What is the intent of adding this language? That federal government controlled lands within the United States are subject to the authority of the US Constitution?? That any and all state law is invalid/inapplicable to and within such areas??

What, exactly and specifically, is attempting to be accomplished by adding this language?

This is confusing.

That is what I thought also.

Furthermore, the fact that the constitution and Bill of Rights are a compact between the states (as representatives of the people, who are not a party to that compact) and the federal government are between them only as a guarantee of our rights and the limitations of the federal government as it pertains to the states and the people.

See my post #30 above also at the very end where I give my opinion of this.

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-10-02   23:35:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Hence, the federal government is foreign to that of the states.

The two jurisdictions cannot be mixed. And it is from this that there arises much confusion.

They can be mixed and are every day--its called concurrent jurisdiction. There is not that much confusion. Whether federal jurisdiction or state jurisdiction attaches and/or which jurisdiction's law takes precedence is generally well settled.

The US Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land. The US Supreme Court is the court of last resort in the United States. In some situations, a state Supreme Court is the court of last resort.

This all seems to be much ado about nothing.

The focus of concerned Americans should be on removing the traitors and idiots, special interests, and a particular foreign country running the American federal government AND geeting government to recognize, enforce and follow laws which are on the books.

And, I'll say again: Richard's proposed amendment makes NO sense to me.

wbales  posted on  2006-10-03   8:00:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

They can be mixed and are every day--its called concurrent jurisdiction. There is not that much confusion. Whether federal jurisdiction or state jurisdiction attaches and/or which jurisdiction's law takes precedence is generally well settled.

Concurrent means they exist side by side. Generally speaking, they do not mix. But, FEDGOV has been trying to mix them more and more as is shown by the attempts to federalize crimes which should be solely in state jurisdiction. You know what I mean, all of this baloney about hate crimes and other nonsense.

But, I was referring also to the two concurrent federal jurisdictions, rather than the state and federal jurisdictions. That is where there is real confusion since the word state is used in both but there are two meanings.

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-10-03   10:21:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

But, I was referring also to the two concurrent federal jurisdictions, rather than the state and federal jurisdictions. That is where there is real confusion since the word state is used in both but there are two meanings.

So from Richard's PM and the statement above, I garner more enlightenment.

There is, according to Richard and BTP as well, two concurrent federal jurisdictions: one up front and out in the open and one, ostensibly, behind the scenes really running the show, extraconstituional, so to speak.

First off, I do not necessarily disagree that there is a shadow government: the Big Business Elite and Zionists who are calling the shots. In fact, that is probably the case. However, that such rises to the level of an "official" secondary, parallel federal government, I am dubious. That the enactment of Richard's proposed contitutional language would expose and bring this secondary federal jurisdiction to a halt, I am MUCH more skeptical (laughing is more like it). After all, do you all really think these people would be worried about a change in the constitution's wording: "Well, it's been amended boys, time to close up shop."

Oh yeah, the Zionists and thier ass kissing lackeys in the American federal government would be sure to say that. Do you really need reminding of how Bush, et. al., regard the US Constitution?? ACK. ACK. GAG. GAG.

No, we don't need no constitutional amendments. We need no more laws.

What is needed is an informed citizenry who shall no longer tolerate ignorance, recklessness, and corruption and the influence and control of a small cult centered in Israel over and in Washington, DC. The typical and far too numerous apathetic, un- and mis-informed, lazy, intimidated, stupid, and gullible American is the real problem. That is what needs to fixed.

No more voting for anyone with an R or a D attached to thier name--more attending street corner protests--more letters to the editor--more bumper stickers--more blurting out at cocktail parties and backyard BBQs that Israel runs the US and Bush sucks--more calling into radio and TV talk shows--more telling your close friends and relatives that they are braindead MFers if they support Bush, this federal government, and/or Israel, grass roots sort of action, so to speak, again.

Well...IMHO.

wbales  posted on  2006-10-03   23:00:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

two concurrent federal jurisdictions:

THERE ARE NOT TWO CONCURRENT FEDERAL JUISDICTIONS! Why is it so difficult to read and understand? This is from the letter I sent to YOU, wbales;

... that we have in this country substantially or practically two national governments ...

THAT STATEMENT WAS MADE BY A FEDERAL SUPREME COURT JUSTICE! Are you going to argue with him? Do you know more than he does? And when did he say that? ONE HUNDRED AND FIVE YEARS AGO IN 1901!!!!

I also sent you another law site which is, slightly older.... When is that dated, wbaled? 1819? Ring a bell? ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY-SEVEN YEARS AGO!!!

Here is Rule No. 1, NOBODY IS VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION!

Here is Rule No. 2, NOBODY IS VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION!

Here is Rule No. 3, NOBODY IS VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION!

Here is Rule No. 4, NOBODY IS VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION!

Here is Rule No. 5, NOBODY IS VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION!

Here is Rule No. 6, NOBODY IS VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION!

Here is Rule No. 7, NOBODY IS VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION!

Here is Rule No. 8, NOBODY IS VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION!

Here is Rule No. 9, NOBODY IS VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION!

Here is Rule No. 10, NOBODY IS VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION!

Do you get it yet? Nobody is violating the Constitution, because they do not have to! From the letter that I sent to YOU;

(In Downes v. Bidwell, the Court ruled that "exclusive" meant "without consideration of the Constitutional restraints...")

Do you get that? The purpose of the Constitution was to establish a CITY STATE DEMOCRACY on land selected by the Jesuits, and donated by them for the purpose of establing the District of Columbia. There are two other City States in the world; the City, i.e., the City of London financial district which is separate from England and not subject to the legislature of England (Yes, I can prove it), and the Vatican...... see any possible clues here?

That means that there were two SEPARATE national governments established, one, guarenteed a Repbulic, the other WITHOUT LAW and by definition, a Democracy. FROM THE BEGINNING.

What was the purpose of the Civil War (See the post, The New Draft)? A City State is limited in its power by its lack of people, or, if you prefer, citizens to both tax and to fight its battles. Bingo! The so-called 14th Amendment, which was never LAWFULLY ratified, and was declared ADOPTED. If you do not understand this, see adoptive act in a legal dictionary. For reference see the so-called 16th Amndment, whcih was never LAWFULLY ratified, and was declared ADOPTED. Here is a rule; if there are two national governments, THERE ARE TWO CONSTITUTIONS! Following the Civil War, the so-claaed freed slaves were turned over to the Federal government as prize property through the 14th Amendment, when the federal government told them to take a number, or leave. Starting in 1876, 9 diget ID numbers were issed to these new slaves-of-the-state. Ummmmm, do you, Mr. wbales, happen to have a government issued 9-diget ID number? By... any.... chance? See the Post, Who Controls the United States, Part 2.

Oh, and by the way, Social Security is now in 173 nations world wide (umm, not in the axis of evil nations? How odd), is controlled from The City (London) by the Crown of England, and a portion of the taxes that you pay goes to the Crown of England. See the Post, Who Controls the United States, Part II.

Oh, and I quote Robin; I don´t see anything wrong with a marriage lic. (See the Post, There is no Separation of church and state). A marriage Lic. is issued for purposes of INTERMARRIAGE. When you became a United States citizen, you took on the same STATUS as a colored PERSON, and traded in your natural rights (see the Declaration of Independence) for the Civil Rights given to the new slaves-US citizens after the Civil War.

Now, I understand that all of this is just mumbo-jumbo, and it has no bearing on what is going on today because it is all so old!!!!! And anyway, who cares, right? Children, are you listening? Because I repeat, no one is violating the Constitution.

And yes, I understand, it is so easy to just go out and kill someone.... well, friend wbales, THEY SHOOT BACK! And any action such as that would completely polorize the people of America, and A MAJORITY OF THEM WOULD SUPPORT THE US GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND... just like you. And they are not angry, yet. And what you are talking about is what THEY want! The US government signed a population compact in the 1960s in which it is the stated purpose of the US government to reduce the population of the United States to 50 million by 2050. Go ahead, they are waiting for you to start something. And in what you want to do, A MIN. OF 25-30 MILLION WOULD DIE, most of them starving to death because you now live in a nation, the United States, which, for the first time in its history, can no longer feed itself without imports, which, I may add, are controlled by the US government.

So, how do you change this, well, I was going to explain that in Who Controls the United States, Part 5, BUT I DON´T THINK SO! You do it by word-of-mouth; an educational program that goes person to person (that is a legal term, by the way), explaining what happened, why, and what is needed to change it.

Will the powers-that-be stand by and accept that. Probably not, and the odds are 80% or better that you will get your Civl War II, as I would have explained in Part 5, BUT, you would begin to build a concenus by and amoung Americans, which is all that matters that we may come together against THEM, and today, that is possible because of the anger that prevades America about vote stealing, 9/11, Iraq and the rest of it. But hey, what do I know?

(Do not bother telling me that I write to much; it is very difficult dealing with people who have so little knowledge and understanding. Things happening today are based on actions from the past; why is that so hard to understand?)

richard9151  posted on  2006-10-04   11:25:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Are you going to argue with him?

Yes.

wbales  posted on  2006-10-04   11:38:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Yes

Interesting. Yes, indeed. Does that indicate stupibity, arguing with established judical case law which goes back 187 years to 1819, or, just disinformation?

I have seen in 4um references to another group, and a comment from there, about rounding up all of the posters on 4um to make the world safer, I assume (possibly for Khazar-Jews?). Now, does it make any sense to anyone in 4um that those kinds of comments are being made.... or are there going to be monitors placed here to keep track..... oh, and by the way, to mislead, misdirect, misinform, confuse, prevent consensus, keep the BS rolling, and generally, make sure that nothing constructive is accomplished?

Now, to anyone in 4um, does it make any sense to argue with a Supreme Court justice and what he wrote 105 years ago, and which has never and can never be overturned? Or, is it just disinformation, just as when wbales writes about killing people; now, is that a solution, or, incitment?

Because this is what is taught in Jesuit universities;how to control debate and focus the debate in construtive directions (constructive for them; not us).

I will leave the judgement to you as to what is going on. And, is bwales the only one? Probably not. Debating techniques include covering over positions that are not defenceable. For instance, in the post, Freemasonry is a religion, I posted this;

"…The apex of our teachings has been the rituals of MORALS AND DOGMA, written over a century ago…" (15)

Time-out; before anyone argues with this; go here: http://bessel.org/bkrevs.htm

MLC - Masonic Leadership Center web page of Masonic Book Reviews

(You will note above that this is a Masonic center; not a figment of my imagination, right?)

The information on this web page was prepared by Paul M. Bessel, Executive Secretary of the Masonic Leadership Center. It is an attempt to compile the locations of all reviews of Masonic books, as well as links to reviews of Masonic books on the Internet, plus texts of Masonic books on the Internet. I will try to add to it regularly, to include current reviews of Masonic books and reviews from the past, too. If anyone wants to send me email, especially if any of the information on this chart is not correct or if you know of additional information that should be included, please send me email by clicking on my name: Paul M. Bessel

Albert Pike, by Fred W. Allsopp (1928) Bro. Wilson's abstract: Learn what made this ‘best loved of all Freemasons’ the remarkable man he was.

Albert Pike: The Man Beyond the Monument, by Jim Tresner review by Wallace McLeod in The Royal Arch Mason, Spring 1996 review by Thomas W. Jackson in The Northern Light, February 1996

Morals and Dogma, by Albert Pike review on the Internet

I did this because SKYDRIFTER told me that Albert Pike is no longer a guiding light of Masonry; above: Albert Pike, by Fred W. Allsopp (1928) Bro. Wilson's abstract: Learn what made this ‘best loved of all Freemasons’ the remarkable man he was.

in the post, Freemasonry is a religion, we find this;

Many of the rank and file of Freemasonry continue to insist that Freemasonry is not a religion. However, their own writings contradict these assertions. Albert Pike, Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite (1860), recorded:

"Every lodge is a temple of religion, and its teaching instruction in religion." (13)

To what religion was Pike making reference? His own words offer all the clarification needed:

"Masonry is the successor to the Mysteries." (14)

Many modern Masons have tried to distance themselves from Pike and his gnostic (highly occultic) work, MORALS AND DOGMA. They insist that his teachings are not that of Masonry, but merely his personal beliefs. They further insist that modern, benevolent Masonry should not be judged by writings over 100 years old. This line of reasoning is very confusing to those who recognize the Legend of Hiram Abiff is supposedly almost 3000 years old. Are not the claims of Masonry said to have originated at the time of Solomon? Are all claims and teachings prior to the 20th Century now null and void? Does this also negate the 32 degrees of the Scottish Rite designed by Pike? Furthermore, as recently as 1989, Scottish Rite Grand Commander, C. Fred Kleinknecht wrote:

"…The apex of our teachings has been the rituals of MORALS AND DOGMA, written over a century ago…" (15)

To which SKYDRIFTER replies; Anyone who knows anything about Pike knows that he was a unique scholar of languages. For example, he claimed to be Lucifer - in the context of the "...bringer of Light" (knowledge and truth) - as opposed to being the devil. (Yeah, right, double-speak is alive and well, that is exactly what Lucifer claimed he brought to the world.)

SKYDRIFTR also said; In any case, Pike's personal opinion of the late 1800s has no overwhelming bearing on what's true in the 21st century; whether you approve or not.

I suggest that those of you who do not understand, go back and read what I copied above from the post Freemasonry is a Religion about Albert Pike.

Then: ... ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR SAVIOR ARE THE SONS OF GOD!! Manly Hall revealed the opposite position of Freemasonry when he wrote:

"To the altar of Freemasonry all men bring their most votive offerings. Around it all men, whether they have received their teachings from Confucius, Zoroaster, Moses, Mohammed, or the founder of the Christian Religion (note he does not name the name of Jesus –ed.), just as long as they believe in the universality of the of the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man …. meet upon a common level." (26)

Another Freemason, Albert Mackey, records:

"Now as Masons we divide not between these (Ashteroth, Vishnu, Dagon, Baal) but take all in as our Brethren, and the One God as our Heavenly Father, revealed to us as such in The Light of Masonry." (27)

Mackey here not only reiterates the heresy of Universality, but also raises a more serious question: What "god" is this that allows acceptance of the followers of Baal and these other pagan deities as brethren? This is certainly not the God of the Bible. (Incidentally, the god Baal was a Canaanite corruption of the Babylonian god Bacchus, who was directly derived from Tammuz, the son of the widow of Nimrod.) (28) God, in the Old Testament commanded Israel to completely annihilate the followers of Baal.

This is from two very famous Masons, Albert MacKey, and Manley Hall, but SKYDRIFTER leaves this alone, because the last time he lied to me, I slapped him with the info about Albert Pike. Now, go to the very same sight where I found the info on Pike; http://bessel.org/bkrevs.htm

We find: Freemasonry of the Ancient Egyptians, by Manly P. Hall Bro. Wilson's abstract: Attempts to unravel the Masonic mysteries of Egypt. Includes a drama – The Initiation of Plato – and an interpretation of CRATA REPOA.

Oh, and for those of you still confused, you can also find;

Pillars of Wisdom: The Writings of Albert Pike, by Dr. Rex R. Hutchens

Our Masonic Presidents, by L. Randall Rogers

Notes on the Scientific and Religious Mysteries of Antiquity, by John Yarker (1872) Bro. Wilson's abstract: Gnosis and secret schools of the middle ages, modern Rosicrucians, and the various degrees of Freemasonry.

Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry (revised edition with supplement by Harry L. Haywood) review by Harold V.B. Voorhis in The Philalethes, October 1965 review by L.E. W. in The Philalethes, October-November, 1949

Mackey's History of Freemasonry

Mackey’s Revised History of Freemasonry, by Robert I. Clegg (The Masonic History Co.; New York, NY; 1922) / 7 volumes Bro. Wilson's abstract: Clear, complete, compact, thoroughly revised, enlarged and brought up to date [1921]. An invaluable resource for libraries and students.

A Life of Albert Pike, by Walter Lee Brown review by Jim Tresner in The Scottish Rite Journal, October 1997 review by Wallace McLeod in The Philalethes, February 1998

Life Story of Albert Pike, by Fred W. Allsopp

G. Washington: Master Mason information on the Internet about this book review by Alphonse Cerza in The Northern Light, January 1982

General Albert Pike, by Fred W. Allsopp (1928) Bro. Wilson's abstract: The story of the man who revitalized the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite and brought it from obscurity to prominence.

George Washington in New York, by Allan Boudreau and Alexander Bleimann review by Wallace McLeod in The Royal Arch Mason, Spring 1991 review by Thomas W. Jackson in The Northern Light, May 1991

The George Washington Masonic National Memorial, by William A. Brown review by Alphonse Cerza in The Northern Light, June 1980

A Glossary to Morals and Dogma, by Rex R. Hutchens review by Jim Tresner in The Scottish Rite Journal, August 1998

And on and on and on. But judge for yourself as to what is going on, and act accordingly, because, hey, what do I know.

richard9151  posted on  2006-10-04   13:46:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Friend, you'd probably have a lot better luck attempting to educate folks about what obviously to you is an important topic. Quite bluntly and to the point, IMO you'd attract a lot more folks if you didn't try to put the entire enclyclopedia in a single post.

It's brain overload, and a wasted way to get folks really to think about and ponder over what you've taken the time to write.

Personally, I believe you'd get a lot further down the pike by making a serialization of your project. Even maintain an index.........and lead folks into your project in a methodical way...one that helps them see the light step by step, or one room or container after another.....but not all at once.

But this bullshit of trying to put the entire National Archives into a single posting won't cut it.

There was another fella at tos2 that had an obsession on one subject--that's all he ever was concerned about. He'd get really frustrated that others just didn't jump thru hoops to go thru his posts. I often wonder if he didn't bust a gasket or something.......

rowdee  posted on  2006-10-04   19:43:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

you'd probably have a lot better luck

I think you are probably correct. And part of the problem is when someone says something about reading a lot, I think they mean a book. I read a normal post of 10 -20 paragraphs in about 30 seconds, normally read 1 or, depending on work load, 2 books a week (not all of them important!). So, yes, I think you may be right. But, what to do about it? This is a really new experience to me, because I have never been in a forum before. And it is beginning to dawn on me that learning is not what most of this is about; its social.... which is not something that I really grasped before. But thanks for the input: it is appreciated.

richard9151  posted on  2006-10-04   23:24:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

And it is beginning to dawn on me that learning is not what most of this is about; its social...

And how long exactly did you try to understand this forum.. or the posters here, before bombing the place with enclycopedias. What did you expect? You, having done years of homework, certainly would have some training choosing an audience that migh be receptive to all your information and appreciate the effort.

You found that, but you don't understand people perhaps. If this is your first forum.. even at that... you've been lucky to get this far with your posts. Most I've seen respond to you, have tried very hard, to understand you. And you have not returned the favor.

Frankly Richard.. I rarely say such things... but hasta la vista. I'm not too sure you are what you say you are.

jessejane  posted on  2006-10-04   23:30:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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