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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel
Source: http://www.wpi.edu
URL Source: http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html
Published: Oct 9, 2002
Author: /////
Post Date: 2006-10-09 17:50:22 by Kamala
Ping List: *9-11*     Subscribe to *9-11*
Keywords: 911
Views: 443
Comments: 44

The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel

There is no indication that any of the fires in the World Trade Center buildings were hot enough to melt the steel framework. Jonathan Barnett, professor of fire protection engineering, has repeatedly reminded the public that steel--which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit--may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.

Materials science professors Ronald R. Biederman and Richard D. Sisson Jr. confirmed the presence of eutectic formations by examining steel samples under optical and scanning electron microscopes. A preliminary report was published in JOM, the journal of the Minerals, Metals & Materials Society. A more detailed analysis comprises Appendix C of the FEMA report. The New York Times called these findings "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." The significance of the work on a sample from Building 7 and a structural column from one of the twin towers becomes apparent only when one sees these heavy chunks of damaged metal.

A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.

A eutectic compound is a mixture of two or more substances that melts at the lowest temperature of any mixture of its components. Blacksmiths took advantage of this property by welding over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron. In the World Trade Center fire, the presence of oxygen, sulfur and heat caused iron oxide and iron sulfide to form at the surface of structural steel members. This liquid slag corroded through intergranular channels into the body of the metal, causing severe erosion and a loss of structural integrity.

"The important questions," says Biederman, "are how much sulfur do you need, and where did it come from? The answer could be as simple--and this is scary- as acid rain."

Have environmental pollutants increased the potential for eutectic reactions? "We may have just the inherent conditions in the atmosphere so that a lot of water on a burning building will form sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide or hydroxides, and start the eutectic process as the steel heats up," Biederman says. He notes that the sulfur could also have come from contents of the burning buildings, such as rubber or plastics. Another possible culprit is ocean salts, such as sodium sulfate, which is known to catalyze sulfidation reactions on turbine blades of jet engines. "All of these things have to be explored," he says.

From a building-safety point of view, the critical question is: Did the eutectic mixture form before the buildings collapsed, or later, as the remains smoldered on the ground. "We have no idea," admits Sisson. "To answer that, we would need to recreate those fires in the FPE labs, and burn fresh steel of known composition for the right time period, with the right environment." He hopes to have the opportunity to collaborate on thermodynamically controlled studies, and to observe the effects of adding sulfur, copper and other elements. The most important lesson, Sisson and Biederman stress, is that fail-safe sprinkler systems are essential to prevent steel from reaching even 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, because phase changes at the 1,300-degree mark compromise a structure's load-bearing capacity.

The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples. They are continuing their microscopic studies on the samples prepared by graduate student Jeremy Bernier and Marco Fontecchio, the 2001–02 Helen E. Stoddard Materials Science and Engineering Fellow.

(Next year's Stoddard Fellow, Erin Sullivan, will take up this work as part of her graduate studies.) Publication of their results may clear up some mysteries that have confounded the scientific community.

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#1. To: Kamala (#0)

I used to try to explain on LP that the melted steel is a smoking gun. that resulted from demolition efforts, not jet fuel or furniture fires. and the fact that it was present 5 weeks after the event also confirms there was some chemical interacting with the steel. Fire could not possibly cause that situation. I used simple knowledge of basic physical properties of steel to determine this.

but as BAC so expertly told me, it means nothing unless it is on tv. we cannot think for ourselves, we must defer to the tv.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-09   17:55:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Red Jones (#1)

Hey Red

Did you notice that huge building that caught fire in Memphis last week never collasped?

Now, that was a blazing inferno, but nothing melted. I guess Silverstein wasn't there to give the pull order.

formerly GJones.

InsideJob  posted on  2006-10-09   18:16:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Red Jones (#1)

Jet fuel or office fires do not cause an eutectic reaction--occurring at the surface, causing intergranular melting with traces of sulphur. The steel was evaporated from the extreme tempertures of the thermate reaction.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

Given the scope of the tragedy from last week, I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C., that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink."— Christie Todd Whitman - 9/18/2001

Kamala  posted on  2006-10-09   18:18:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: InsideJob (#2)

lol!

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-09   18:18:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: robin (#4)

I think only hte roof collapsed and the shell remained standing.

formerly GJones.

InsideJob  posted on  2006-10-09   18:23:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Kamala (#3)

Jet fuel or office fires do not cause an eutectic reaction--occurring at the surface, causing intergranular melting with traces of sulphur.

thanks for explaining that to me.

but unfortunately it means very little. If this information is not dramatically explained on tv under the assumption by the journalists that it is true, then in the minds of a very large group of Americans, perhaps a majority, it is all BS. for many americnas, they have a spell cast on them, and for them reality is tv. anything else is false. they are unable to process non-tv sanctioned information.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-09   18:24:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Kamala (#0)

(I found the following which is a really great reference to Thermite and WTC. My only problem is that for some reason I have never been able to post a photo to freedom4um. It has a lot of videos and scientific evidence.)

http://www.whatreallyhappe ned.com/thermite.htm

This eight ton steel I-beam is six inches thick. It was selected to be preserved for future generations for the near perfect horseshoe bend ... it bent without almost a single crack in it. It takes thousands of degrees to bend steel like this. WMV video download (597kB)

Thermite and the WTC Collapses

Following the World Trade Center collapses thermal hot spots with temperatures in excess of 700°C existed deep within the wreckage of the buildings. These temperatures were sustained for a long period of time.

Image source: USGS Spectroscopy Lab

The temperature at the core of "the pile," is near 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, according to fire officials, who add that the fires are too deep for firefighters to get to. [ABC News, 9/18/01]

"This is how it's been since day one...and this is six weeks later. As we get closer to the center of this it gets hotter and hotter - it's probably 1500 degrees." WMV video download (616kB)

"Out on the rubble it's still, I believe, 1,100 degrees. The guys boots just melt within a few hours." WMV video download (130kB)

In perfect conditions the maximum temperature that can be reached by hydrocarbons such as jet fuel burning in air is 1520° F (825° C). When the World Trade Center collapsed the deeply buried fires would have been deprived of oxygen and their temperatures would have significantly decreased.

Why was the temperature at the core of "the pile" nearly 500° F hotter than the maximum burning temperature of jet fuel a full seven days after the collapses? There were no infernos in either of the twin towers before they collapsed, so what caused the hot spots deep in their wreckage?

Dr. Frank Gayle, Metals Expert, on the jet fuel fires which burned in the WTC buildings: "Your gut reaction would be the jet fuel is what made the fire so very intense, a lot of people figured that's what melted the steel. Indeed it didn't, the steel did not melt." http://[Firehouse.com]

Molten steel did not exist in the WTC buildings prior to the collapses, but...

Molten steel was found “three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed [from WTCs 1 & 2],” Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon. [American Free Press]

One of the more unusual artefacts to emerge from the rubble is this rock-like object which has come to be known as "the meteorite". "This is a fused element of molten steel and concrete all fused by the heat into one single element." WMV video download (376kB)

What caused the steel to melt? How did it stay molten for weeks after the collapses? How did fires in the WTC wreckage manage to burn for more than 3 months?

Thermite provides a plausible answer.

A thermite reaction generates extraordinarily high temperatures (>2500° C) and provides a credible explanation for the fires, hot spots and molten steel (a by- product of the thermite reaction) found in the collapsed buildings - they were a result of thermite detonations in the buildings on 9/11.

"Anyone who has ever watched a building being demolished on purpose knows that if you're going to do this you have to get at the under-infrastructure of the building to bring it down" Peter Jennings, ABC News 9/11/2001.

WMV video download (171kB).

"If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure"

Mark Loizeaux, president, Controlled Demolition Inc.

The fact that the core of WTC 1 failed below the third floor indicates the above occurred, as does the following:

When the rescue team reached an area directly in front of Tower Two, Antonio said he'd take over the equipment cart Will had pushed from Building 5. ... The team moved ahead. ... Suddenly the hallway began to shudder as a terrible deafening roar swept over them. That's when Will saw the giant fireball explode in the street. http://[bowhunter.com]

As Ron DiFrancesco ran away [from WTC 2] he was hit by a fireball ... he was probably the last person out alive. "I saw the fireball and heard a loud noise. That's all I remember..." WMV video download (291kB)

"All of a sudden I heard a roar and I saw one of the towers blow ... I saw from street level as though it exploded up, a giant rolling ball of flame..." WMV video download (392kB)

Same reporter: "I hear simultaneously this roar and see what appears to be a gigantic fireball rising up at ground level . . . I remember seeing this giant ball of fire come out of the earth as I heard this roar" [Running Toward Danger: Stories Behind the Breaking News of 9/11 - page 239]

Survivor in WTC 1 stairwell during WTC 2 collapse: "...and all of a sudden this huge cloud of dark grey smoke comes shooting up the stairway ... and it was hot - very, very hot." WMV video download (201kB)

White smoke emerging from the dust cloud of the collapsing WTC 2.

WMV video download (341kB)

"I said, ‘Chief, they're evacuating the other building [WTC 1]; right?’ He said, ‘No.’ ... I said, ‘Why not? They blew up the other one.’ I thought they blew it up with a bomb. I said, ‘If they blew up the one, you know they're gonna blow up the other one.’ [William Reynolds - Firefighter] "We start walking back there and then I heard a ground level explosion and I'm like holy shit, and then you heard that twisting metal wreckage again." [James McKinley -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)]

"I was standing next to 1 World Trade Center and then all of a sudden I heard rumbling and we all started running away from it. The glass like blew out and threw me onto the sidewalk ... and I couldn't see for like twenty seconds..." WMV video download (513kB)

White smoke at the base of WTC 1 seconds before its collapse. Video with zoom: 582kB wmv download

Video without zoom: 1.4MB wmv download

"...the FBI most likely thinks that there was a car or truck packed with explosives underneath the buildings which also exploded at the same time and brought both of them down." RealMedia video download (1.2 MB)

Thermite gives off dense white smoke with very little odor.

Video of smoke rising from the World Trade Center wreckage.

WMV video download (121kB)

The smoke rising from the wreckage should have been black, not white.

The wreckage of WTC 2 radiated the greatest heat on September 16, 2001. Thermite detonations would account for this.

A thermite reaction generates large amounts of ultraviolet radiation:

On 27 September, the officials ordered 2000 gallons of [Pyrocool FEF], which when added to water produces a slippery, low-viscosity foam. ... Berger adds that "Pyrocool also contains two powerful ultra-violet absorbers." [New Scientist]

The core column shown above the firefighter was discovered after the collapse. The angled cut occurs in exactly the manner that shaped charges slice through steel beams to control the way they fall. Notice the hardened once liquid metal. Was thermite used with the shaped charge? WMV video download (670kB)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See also: The 9/11 WTC Collapses: An Audio-Video Analysis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Really Happened

The Truth of 911 Shall Set You Free From The Lie

Horse  posted on  2006-10-09   18:51:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Red Jones (#6)

Red

My post really wasn't for you, because I know you understand what happened on 911. Most are still in fear and denial.

Dr. Jones and Kevin Ryan have updated some research with more evidence.

Fluorine, managanese, zinc, chlorine, barium, potassium, titanium and a plastic molecule, 1,3-DPP or 1,3 diphenylpropane that more than likely was the base for the sol-gel application of the nano-thermite.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

Given the scope of the tragedy from last week, I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C., that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink."— Christie Todd Whitman - 9/18/2001

Kamala  posted on  2006-10-09   19:10:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Kamala (#8)

well, it makes me feel good that there are a few good honest americans like Professor Jones. we used to have a ton of such people. at least there's a few left.

it seems that people are worn down mentally & emotionally. they're either un- willing to think for themselves or un-able.

there should be college professors all over the country giving lessons about steel and what temperature it begins to lose strength at, the temperatures caused by jet fuel fires and the way that steel just won't turn to liquid unless there is overwhelming heat of an entirely different magnitude than a mere fire from office furnishings & jet fuel.

anyone with a gut understanding of physics knows you just can't build up such heat to produce molten steel in such a fire. Much of the stuff in a building doesn't even burn (concrete won't burn, drywall burns very reluctantly if at all, steel will very rarely catch on fire, it is really extraordinary to get steel to catch on fire). and heat will dissipate through a steel building so quickly, the steel carries heat like crazy. to be able to focus heat on steel to produce a pool of molten liquid steel - that is extraordinary. Every physics professor who knows his craft knows this in his gut. But Jones is the only one who made a public scene over it.

I wonder how many college professors tried to teach such lessons and were told not to do it again. we've witnessed a massive failure of 'free' human beings that they didn't try to teach us.

only tv has reality. all else is fake. so say most Americans.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-09   19:42:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Red Jones, Kamala, InsideJob, robin, Horse, (#1)

Jet fuel or office fires do not cause an eutectic reaction--occurring at the surface, causing intergranular melting with traces of sulphur. The steel was evaporated from the extreme tempertures of the thermate reaction.

That's not true.

When I was training for my FAA airframe and powerplant license I was told for example to never use a carbon pencil or the like to mark a turbine fan blade because the resulting jet flame would turn that pencil mark into torch line. Same thing would happen with soot or other contaminents on the fan blades.

So your assumption fails.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-10   12:04:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Horse (#7)

to post an image on 4um:

< img src = past the url for the image here >

without the spaces between the opening and close tags

I Only Want To Be With You*

christine  posted on  2006-10-10   12:30:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Destro (#10)

Destro, have you watched 911 Mysteries: Demolitions?

posted here

I Only Want To Be With You*

christine  posted on  2006-10-10   12:41:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Destro (#10)

A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.

I personally believe Kamala's analysis better than yours' about the eutectic phenomenon.

but I know for certain that what is described above in this snippet I quoted from the article could not be caused by an ordinary fire from a combination of jet fuel or gasoline or kerosene and office furniture & paper. If you take a steel beam and put it in such a fire the most that will happen to the beam is it will turn a little bit red, it may lose some properties (strength), a drop or two of steel may drip off if the fire is extremely intense and fed by a lot of oxygen blowing on it. but there is no way that what has been described in this snippet above can be caused by such a fire.

This journalist Chris Bollyn who is now so much attacked is the one who quoted the men on the job-site including the owners of two companies hired to take out the debris that there were many pools of molten and still liquid steel in the debris. This is a physical impossibility unless some very special processes were used. Those special process include only two types. 1-a blast furnace. we know that didn't happen because a blast furnace is completely enclosed and has air and fuel shot into it at high intensity, that can't happen in a building that is not enclosed. 2-chemicals that caused the steel to melt. It had to be chemicals. The eutectic phenomenon goes with that. The idea that a tiny bit of acid from the moisture in the air coated the steel and caused it all to melt is ridiculous.

We're seeing great propaganda efforts to deceive people on these issues.

I've been saying for years that the melted steel in the building that Chris Bollyn publicized is an absolute smoking gun.

Look at the efforts put forth to discredit this theory for the sake of history.

experts are hired to say incredibly stupid things (the acid rain theory) and others.

all stops are pulled to show that Bollyn is a bad player. As RickyJ indicated on other thread - AFP is now under suspicion.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-10   12:44:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Destro (#10)

I've read some of your nonsense at LF about office fires causing highrise structural steel to weaken and cause a complete collapse.

You have no clue or basis or proof for that claim.

This isn't FR or LP.

You will get your brains beat in here on 911 if you continue to spout the government fairytale.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

Given the scope of the tragedy from last week, I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C., that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink."— Christie Todd Whitman - 9/18/2001

Kamala  posted on  2006-10-10   13:14:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Red Jones (#13)

It takes thousands of degrees to form pools of iron. This was a by product of thermate.Not only were pools of molten iron found in all 3 basements, structual steel was evaporated completely. For this to happen you need well over 4000 degrees. Like you have stated Red, jet fuel and some office furniture isn't capable of doing this.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

Given the scope of the tragedy from last week, I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C., that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink."— Christie Todd Whitman - 9/18/2001

Kamala  posted on  2006-10-10   13:25:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Kamala, christine, Red Jones (#14) (Edited)

I've read some of your nonsense at LF about office fires causing highrise structural steel to weaken and cause a complete collapse.

You have no clue or basis or proof for that claim.

Then why bother fireproofing steel beams then?

Genius! Construction firms can save millions in avoiding steel beam fireproofing!

So my creds? Work in the steel beam making business and I was trained for airframe and powerplant license which requires a knowledge of jets, metal alloys and what heat and cold does to them.

I mean, dont get me wrong - I have advocated the killing of NATO troops in the Balkans by Serbs who seek their freedom from American domination so I could care less if Americans are killing each other in mass qiantities - in fact it would be a dream come true - but alas - the WTC is not such an example.

I can still hope.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-10   15:18:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Destro (#16)

will you watch the video i linked above? i'd really like to see if the information therein impresses you.

I Only Want To Be With You*

christine  posted on  2006-10-10   15:24:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: christine (#17)

I saw a pancake effect - from the top down.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-10   15:26:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Destro (#16)

fireproofing is done to protect structural steel from fires. Fires that are ordinary fires, of the types of temperatures that jet fuel and other things in the building would produce, are hot enough to damage the steel by weakening it. Under an extremely hot fire of such items and over a period of time the strength properties of the steel can be eroded. The steel could theoretically start to bend and even fail. At least the calculations indicate this. Keep in mind the calculations use a lot of 'safety factor' in them so they are not exactly accurate, they are just the calculations used in design. So it is conventional wisdom to fireproof the structural steel because theoretically a hot fire can weaken the steel.

but it is impossible for any hot fire of normal sources to actually melt the steel to liquid. At the WTC many witnesses said the steel was melted to liquid.

you are an idiot.

I don't have a PE license, but I have taken all the courses that would lead to such. and I graduated summa cum laude. from a college of engineering recognized as being one of the top ten in the US. I work as a project manager for a commercial building contractor.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-10   15:42:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Destro (#18)

in a real collapse of a building the 'pancake' effect takes time to happen. When each floor is hit with the mass of material from above there is time that occurs between when the impact occurs and the collapse occurs of that floor. It may be a short amount of time, but still it takes time. At the WTC we did not see that. The collapse was at near free-fall speed. It was one half second behind free fall speed, the building structure offerred no resistance at all almost. This is inconsistent with a normal pancake type collapse.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-10   15:45:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Destro (#16)

answer me this.

why is it that iron fireplace grates do not turn liquid under a wood fire?

You've seen iron fireplace grates get a little bit red in a very very hot wood fire. That is all they will do. they will turn a bit red, but they will not melt and they will not fail. how is it that at the WTC some of the steel actually melted to liquid?

you could make a bonfire of 20 big logs from the forest, a huge pile of firewood and douse it with gasoline, then light the whole thing, get it going real good. then put a steel beam on it and you will not see any of the steel turn to liquid. It takes an order of magnitude higher than what mere wood will produce in a fire to produce liquid. Anyone who knows materials knows this.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-10   15:48:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Red Jones (#21) (Edited)

answer me this.

Dude - no skin off my nose. You want to accuse your fellow Americans of being able to carry out planted demolitions in the heart of a city and all that it entails - go for it.

I saw American jets target children in Serbia to get that nation to yield so its no small stretch to accept the fact that Americans are satanic baby killers who would do this to their own people - so if that's the line you want to push - go for it.

Any nation that can do that to their own people deserves death - her seed scattered - her soil salted.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-10   16:07:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Kamala (#0)

Have environmental pollutants increased the potential for eutectic reactions? "We may have just the inherent conditions in the atmosphere so that a lot of water on a burning building will form sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide or hydroxides, and start the eutectic process as the steel heats up," Biederman says. He notes that the sulfur could also have come from contents of the burning buildings, such as rubber or plastics. Another possible culprit is ocean salts, such as sodium sulfate, which is known to catalyze sulfidation reactions on turbine blades of jet engines. "All of these things have to be explored," he says.

If this were true though, wouldn't we see this phenomena in most cities when a building with a steel frame burns down? Sounds like these guys think it's an unusual phenomena.

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-10-10   16:24:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Destro (#22)

a small clique of evil criminals are responsible for sept 11 events, not the americans as a people.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-10   16:48:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: mehitable (#23)

Sounds like these guys think it's an unusual phenomena.

their theory about acid rain causing acid to be in the moisture that is in the air and thus cause acid to build up on the steel and cause it to melt as described under an ordinary fire is a very stupid ridiculous theory. We're seeing that. We're seeing very well qualified credentialed people put forth absolutely insane theories to explain what happened. This is propaganda.

unfortunately we have a lot of stupid people in our country who believe anything the tv tells them and cannot think for themselves. they are trained like animals to not think for themselves and instead to defer to the tv always.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-10   16:51:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Destro (#22)

You avoided answering Red's #21.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-10-10   17:04:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Destro (#16)

The towers were overbuilt by 600% and could withstand MULTIPLE airliner strikes.

The massive 47 inner girders were psi rated at 42,000 and were at the base, 4" thick and 36" by 52". The outer girders up to 100,000 psi and were laced like a netting. The floors were a maze and web of trusses running in criss crossing patterns.

99.7% of the steel was removed before extensive testing could be done. The results of the steel girders that were tested, the majority showed heat of 480 degrees, barely enough to melt paint and a few samples showed 1230 degrees. Still well below any significant temps.

Air temps are not physical temps, and steel is an amazing conductor of heat and wisks it away from any source. Also the engineering of highrise skyscrapers makes them vent heat, smoke and fire naturally.

NIST conducted live scale floor models of the twin towers. NIST built exact replicas and subjected the models to the stress loads and fires of that day.

2 hours of 2000 degree heat and nothing failed. No girder warping, no truss sagging and pulling, no bolt or coupling failure.

NIST then conducted another stress and fire floor model test, where they INCREASED the loads and REMOVED the fire- proofing.

2 hours later of 2000 degree heat guess what, no girder warping, no truss sagging or pulling, no bolt or coupling failure.

There was about 4 inches total of steel pan sagging that holds the 4" light weight pour of concrete, but it did not cause any significant damage or stress to the model.

So, NIST decided they didn't like the outcome of real research and science and created computer software models and results to fit the pre-concieved government fabrication.

Fireproofing is added only to ensure people have enough time to safely escape a building or highrise before fire, heat and smoke spread and endanger human life.

Fires are not a threat to structual steel buildings. Period. I have friends, family and relatives that are firefighters.

Off the record, they will state it is impossible for fire to collapse a structual steel highrise.

On the record, they have no comment for fear of reprisal.

Never in history has a building that exhibited demolition, not been demolition.

The twin towers fell in 14 sec and WTC 7 fell in 6 1/2 sec. For the WTC 1,2 thats about 1/6th to 1/7th of a sec per floor. The WTC 7 fell in about 1/8th of a sec per floor.

A progressive collapse would be too slow, a gravity collapse would be too slow, a pancaking collapse would be too slow.

The only conclusion is explosives. We also have all the oral and written testimony of EMS, police, firemen, employees, construction and maintenance workers of continuous explosions going on.

By the way, NIST has backed away completely from the "pancake theory". So you are taking a position that even the feds know is preposterious.

Oh yeah, I guess the shadow of the airliner brought down WTC 7.

Since you are new here, why don't you enlighten all of us here at 4um, and tell us what you think happened on 911?

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

Given the scope of the tragedy from last week, I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C., that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink."— Christie Todd Whitman - 9/18/2001

Kamala  posted on  2006-10-10   17:30:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: mehitable (#23)

The government paid "engineers" are grasping at anything.

The structual steel was EVAPORATED.

It is impossible for jet fuel, an office fire or any other hydrocarbon fire to reach the temps needed to produce molten iron or evaporated steel. Period.

WTC 1, 2, 7 were brought down with a combination of a sol-gel nano-aluminum/zinc thermite and an incendiary thermate.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

Given the scope of the tragedy from last week, I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C., that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink."— Christie Todd Whitman - 9/18/2001

Kamala  posted on  2006-10-10   17:44:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Destro (#18)

I saw a pancake effect.

you didn't watch 911 Mysteries: Demolitions. that issue is addressed. pancake effect would have left the core columns standing and the buildings would not have come down in a TEN SECOND FREEFALL.<---click

Never in history....

I Only Want To Be With You*

christine  posted on  2006-10-10   17:48:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Red Jones (#25)

Well, it just sounds crazy to me that anyone would even entertain the idea that our air so so acidic that if it comes into contact with burning steel it turns into some kind of sulfurous compound that thins out steel and eats large holes in it - in a matter of hours/days. If this were a normal phenomena, we would see this in other fires, but of course we don't, because IT'S CRAZY.

This is the kind of thing that people reach for when they seem desperate for some kind of explanation short of demonic intervention.

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-10-10   17:51:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Kamala (#27)

outstanding compilation of facts, mark.

I Only Want To Be With You*

christine  posted on  2006-10-10   17:57:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: mehitable (#30)

sounds crazy

it sounds crazy & it IS crazy too.

but we're seeing these types of things where absolutely crazy insane theories are put forth by people with expert credentials even and then treated seriously all to support the government's conspiracy theories on sept 11 events.

we've seen it advanced that when the plane went into the pentagon that the wings just magically folded up and went in a small 20 foot wide hole rather than have an impact on the building even though they were travelling at OVER 300 MPH. and that idea was advanced by mainstream media.

The Discovery channel had an expert on who said that the pools of molten steel in the basement levels could've been caused by jet fuel trickling down through 80 floors of wreckage and then magically reaching very hot temperatures to melt the steel. That is ridiculous. It was burning jet fuel, it all burnt off in a few minutes. it can only trickle downward in liquid form, meaning it wasn't burning while it trickled, when it trickles it spreads out, it diffuses, then it was to magically come together and focus itself on some steel at the bottom to produce a ridiculously hot fire, absolute garbage. and yet they advance that on Discovery channel.

we're seeing the phenomenon of very smart well educated people some with credentials say and apparently believe even very stupid stupid things. all because they defer their ability to think to the man on the tv who tells them what thoughts are acceptable and what are not. Thus they lose their ability to think by surrendering it. it can be called a brain-washing or mind-control technique. It can also be called sorcery, that is the word used in the bible to describe it. Deception is another word used to describe what they do.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-10   18:13:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Red Jones (#32)

The Discovery channel had an expert on who said that the pools of molten steel in the basement levels could've been caused by jet fuel trickling down through 80 floors of wreckage and then magically reaching very hot temperatures to melt the steel. That is ridiculous. It was burning jet fuel, it all burnt off in a few minutes. it can only trickle downward in liquid form, meaning it wasn't burning while it trickled, when it trickles it spreads out, it diffuses, then it was to magically come together and focus itself on some steel at the bottom to produce a ridiculously hot fire, absolute garbage. and yet they advance that on Discovery channel.

Well of course, logic dictates that the jet fuel would have cooled down even a wee bit by the time it reached the basement, and would hardly have caused melting pools of steel. That is insane. However, it should be easy enough to do either a computer simulation, or get some actual jet fuel and steel and go to town.

I think there are people who are desperately willing to believe ANYTHING other than that there are evil traitors in our government who are willing to kill American citizens for money and power. I don't understand why that is so hard to believe, but I never see anyone argue that point with me - they just deny deny deny. That's not good enough.

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-10-11   11:45:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Red Jones, Jethro Tull, Kamala, christine, burkeman1, bluedogtxn (#24)

a small clique of evil criminals are responsible for sept 11 events, not the americans as a people.

If that is your view then the American people somehow produce such monsters and enable them.

Therefore the logical conclusion is that such a people can not be allowed to continue.

If what you say is true the only conclusion is that her seed be scattered and her earth salted to prevent the American people carrying out the whims of this evil clique. If this was the case why are you not all arming and killing American police and military uniformed officials? How can you allow such monsters to rule over you and to do such damage to our country and the world?

That is the logical conclusion the theory that the WTC had been demolitioned by covert clique of Americans leads to.

Trust me after what I saw America do to Serbia I would welcome this decimation but I am not convinced this conspiracy theory is so (nor will I try and change your mind beyond voicing my doubts/thoughts).

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-11   13:18:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Destro (#34)

I'll explain my point of view since you asked.

I don't advocate america's destruction - period. these are my people. I would like to stay here even if such destruction does come.

I put my faith in the bible. It teaches me two relevant lessons to this discussion.

first, nations of the world are not ruled by the people who inhabit those nations. The democracy ideology is a fraud. man thinks that he rules, but this is false. the democracy is always dysfunctional. The way nations are ruled as described in the bible is that god appoints a ruling clique. and then after that the people fall in line like sheep. This is how it works in America, this is how it always works everywhere and always has been that way. God appoints leaders not for the benefit of the inhabitants of the nation necessarilly, but for the creator's purposes. If his purpose is to build a country up and bless it, then he will provide such leaders. If his purpose is to destroy a nation, then he will provide leaders to facilitate that purpose.

Second, I think that our country is babylon of the end-times period as described in the bible. therefore, it will be destroyed and destroyed completely and suddenly as no other nation in world history has been destroyed. the nations of the world will conspire secretly to do this and when the attack occurs it will come so suddenly and be so complete that EVERYONE will be shocked. then upon the conclusion of this destruction jesus will return, proceed with judgement and build his kingdom here on earth. I believe our country does play a very special role in history and this is god's plan.

so I do oppose the clique that rules over us and I would like to stop them. But I am not foolish enough or proud enough to think that I can. And I do not advocate taking violent action to do so.

I got these ideas from the bible, prophecy in Daniel & Revelation. But you know what? George Washington gave a prophecy in December, 1777. and his prophecy matches this as well. the prophecy was given to him by an angel.

I wonder if you are sincere or if you are instigating.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-11   19:00:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Red Jones (#35)

But you know what? George Washington gave a prophecy in December, 1777. and his prophecy matches this as well. the prophecy was given to him by an angel.

That was proven to be an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/ language/document/vision.htm

Sorry.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-11   19:07:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Red Jones (#35)

I wonder if you are sincere or if you are instigating.

About what?

I was the first person who outed the 9/11 terrorists as being former Bosnian Muslim jihadis on Freerepublic - who were part of the CIA program against the Serbs. I was threatened over this and banned.

I don't buy the demolition theory - but I have no problem listening to it.

The link to al-Qaeda and out govts secret govt cliques is not a fantasy and I accept it as real - how this led to the events leading to 9/11 is still up in the air - was it a blowback or a case of collusion? That's the question.

I don't understand why the fact that planes hit the Towers needs be compounded with what I consider fool's bait - false conspiracy theories that they allow out there to fool and distract people from the real stories.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-11   19:12:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Destro (#36)

Destro - many historical sources reported that he gave this prophecy prior to the year 1850. so, it is a documented fact that he did give a speech at valley forge with his prophecy in it. Newspapers of the day said so. many witnesses said so. many witnesses spoke to george washington about it later. Anthony sherman has the most detailed description of it, but there were other accounts as well recorded in history and they do not conflict with Sherman's. These accounts occurred over a period of 80 years beginning with newspaper accounts in 1777 and ending with Sherman's account in 1849. I did skim through your link - I thought it was real weak.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-11   19:28:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Red Jones (#38)

Nope. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Washington was a deist/rationalist and not prone to what deists would term superstitious nonsense like prophesies.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-11   19:44:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Destro (#39)

you don't know george washington.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-11   19:47:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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