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Title: The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel
Source: http://www.wpi.edu
URL Source: http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html
Published: Oct 9, 2002
Author: /////
Post Date: 2006-10-09 17:50:22 by Kamala
Ping List: *9-11*     Subscribe to *9-11*
Keywords: 911
Views: 448
Comments: 44

The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel

There is no indication that any of the fires in the World Trade Center buildings were hot enough to melt the steel framework. Jonathan Barnett, professor of fire protection engineering, has repeatedly reminded the public that steel--which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit--may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.

Materials science professors Ronald R. Biederman and Richard D. Sisson Jr. confirmed the presence of eutectic formations by examining steel samples under optical and scanning electron microscopes. A preliminary report was published in JOM, the journal of the Minerals, Metals & Materials Society. A more detailed analysis comprises Appendix C of the FEMA report. The New York Times called these findings "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." The significance of the work on a sample from Building 7 and a structural column from one of the twin towers becomes apparent only when one sees these heavy chunks of damaged metal.

A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.

A eutectic compound is a mixture of two or more substances that melts at the lowest temperature of any mixture of its components. Blacksmiths took advantage of this property by welding over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron. In the World Trade Center fire, the presence of oxygen, sulfur and heat caused iron oxide and iron sulfide to form at the surface of structural steel members. This liquid slag corroded through intergranular channels into the body of the metal, causing severe erosion and a loss of structural integrity.

"The important questions," says Biederman, "are how much sulfur do you need, and where did it come from? The answer could be as simple--and this is scary- as acid rain."

Have environmental pollutants increased the potential for eutectic reactions? "We may have just the inherent conditions in the atmosphere so that a lot of water on a burning building will form sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide or hydroxides, and start the eutectic process as the steel heats up," Biederman says. He notes that the sulfur could also have come from contents of the burning buildings, such as rubber or plastics. Another possible culprit is ocean salts, such as sodium sulfate, which is known to catalyze sulfidation reactions on turbine blades of jet engines. "All of these things have to be explored," he says.

From a building-safety point of view, the critical question is: Did the eutectic mixture form before the buildings collapsed, or later, as the remains smoldered on the ground. "We have no idea," admits Sisson. "To answer that, we would need to recreate those fires in the FPE labs, and burn fresh steel of known composition for the right time period, with the right environment." He hopes to have the opportunity to collaborate on thermodynamically controlled studies, and to observe the effects of adding sulfur, copper and other elements. The most important lesson, Sisson and Biederman stress, is that fail-safe sprinkler systems are essential to prevent steel from reaching even 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, because phase changes at the 1,300-degree mark compromise a structure's load-bearing capacity.

The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples. They are continuing their microscopic studies on the samples prepared by graduate student Jeremy Bernier and Marco Fontecchio, the 2001–02 Helen E. Stoddard Materials Science and Engineering Fellow.

(Next year's Stoddard Fellow, Erin Sullivan, will take up this work as part of her graduate studies.) Publication of their results may clear up some mysteries that have confounded the scientific community.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 42.

#1. To: Kamala (#0)

I used to try to explain on LP that the melted steel is a smoking gun. that resulted from demolition efforts, not jet fuel or furniture fires. and the fact that it was present 5 weeks after the event also confirms there was some chemical interacting with the steel. Fire could not possibly cause that situation. I used simple knowledge of basic physical properties of steel to determine this.

but as BAC so expertly told me, it means nothing unless it is on tv. we cannot think for ourselves, we must defer to the tv.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-09   17:55:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Red Jones, Kamala, InsideJob, robin, Horse, (#1)

Jet fuel or office fires do not cause an eutectic reaction--occurring at the surface, causing intergranular melting with traces of sulphur. The steel was evaporated from the extreme tempertures of the thermate reaction.

That's not true.

When I was training for my FAA airframe and powerplant license I was told for example to never use a carbon pencil or the like to mark a turbine fan blade because the resulting jet flame would turn that pencil mark into torch line. Same thing would happen with soot or other contaminents on the fan blades.

So your assumption fails.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-10   12:04:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Destro (#10)

I've read some of your nonsense at LF about office fires causing highrise structural steel to weaken and cause a complete collapse.

You have no clue or basis or proof for that claim.

This isn't FR or LP.

You will get your brains beat in here on 911 if you continue to spout the government fairytale.

Kamala  posted on  2006-10-10   13:14:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Kamala, christine, Red Jones (#14) (Edited)

I've read some of your nonsense at LF about office fires causing highrise structural steel to weaken and cause a complete collapse.

You have no clue or basis or proof for that claim.

Then why bother fireproofing steel beams then?

Genius! Construction firms can save millions in avoiding steel beam fireproofing!

So my creds? Work in the steel beam making business and I was trained for airframe and powerplant license which requires a knowledge of jets, metal alloys and what heat and cold does to them.

I mean, dont get me wrong - I have advocated the killing of NATO troops in the Balkans by Serbs who seek their freedom from American domination so I could care less if Americans are killing each other in mass qiantities - in fact it would be a dream come true - but alas - the WTC is not such an example.

I can still hope.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-10   15:18:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Destro (#16)

answer me this.

why is it that iron fireplace grates do not turn liquid under a wood fire?

You've seen iron fireplace grates get a little bit red in a very very hot wood fire. That is all they will do. they will turn a bit red, but they will not melt and they will not fail. how is it that at the WTC some of the steel actually melted to liquid?

you could make a bonfire of 20 big logs from the forest, a huge pile of firewood and douse it with gasoline, then light the whole thing, get it going real good. then put a steel beam on it and you will not see any of the steel turn to liquid. It takes an order of magnitude higher than what mere wood will produce in a fire to produce liquid. Anyone who knows materials knows this.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-10   15:48:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Red Jones (#21) (Edited)

answer me this.

Dude - no skin off my nose. You want to accuse your fellow Americans of being able to carry out planted demolitions in the heart of a city and all that it entails - go for it.

I saw American jets target children in Serbia to get that nation to yield so its no small stretch to accept the fact that Americans are satanic baby killers who would do this to their own people - so if that's the line you want to push - go for it.

Any nation that can do that to their own people deserves death - her seed scattered - her soil salted.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-10   16:07:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Destro (#22)

a small clique of evil criminals are responsible for sept 11 events, not the americans as a people.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-10   16:48:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Red Jones, Jethro Tull, Kamala, christine, burkeman1, bluedogtxn (#24)

a small clique of evil criminals are responsible for sept 11 events, not the americans as a people.

If that is your view then the American people somehow produce such monsters and enable them.

Therefore the logical conclusion is that such a people can not be allowed to continue.

If what you say is true the only conclusion is that her seed be scattered and her earth salted to prevent the American people carrying out the whims of this evil clique. If this was the case why are you not all arming and killing American police and military uniformed officials? How can you allow such monsters to rule over you and to do such damage to our country and the world?

That is the logical conclusion the theory that the WTC had been demolitioned by covert clique of Americans leads to.

Trust me after what I saw America do to Serbia I would welcome this decimation but I am not convinced this conspiracy theory is so (nor will I try and change your mind beyond voicing my doubts/thoughts).

Destro  posted on  2006-10-11   13:18:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Destro (#34)

I'll explain my point of view since you asked.

I don't advocate america's destruction - period. these are my people. I would like to stay here even if such destruction does come.

I put my faith in the bible. It teaches me two relevant lessons to this discussion.

first, nations of the world are not ruled by the people who inhabit those nations. The democracy ideology is a fraud. man thinks that he rules, but this is false. the democracy is always dysfunctional. The way nations are ruled as described in the bible is that god appoints a ruling clique. and then after that the people fall in line like sheep. This is how it works in America, this is how it always works everywhere and always has been that way. God appoints leaders not for the benefit of the inhabitants of the nation necessarilly, but for the creator's purposes. If his purpose is to build a country up and bless it, then he will provide such leaders. If his purpose is to destroy a nation, then he will provide leaders to facilitate that purpose.

Second, I think that our country is babylon of the end-times period as described in the bible. therefore, it will be destroyed and destroyed completely and suddenly as no other nation in world history has been destroyed. the nations of the world will conspire secretly to do this and when the attack occurs it will come so suddenly and be so complete that EVERYONE will be shocked. then upon the conclusion of this destruction jesus will return, proceed with judgement and build his kingdom here on earth. I believe our country does play a very special role in history and this is god's plan.

so I do oppose the clique that rules over us and I would like to stop them. But I am not foolish enough or proud enough to think that I can. And I do not advocate taking violent action to do so.

I got these ideas from the bible, prophecy in Daniel & Revelation. But you know what? George Washington gave a prophecy in December, 1777. and his prophecy matches this as well. the prophecy was given to him by an angel.

I wonder if you are sincere or if you are instigating.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-11   19:00:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Red Jones (#35)

But you know what? George Washington gave a prophecy in December, 1777. and his prophecy matches this as well. the prophecy was given to him by an angel.

That was proven to be an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/ language/document/vision.htm

Sorry.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-11   19:07:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Destro (#36)

Destro - many historical sources reported that he gave this prophecy prior to the year 1850. so, it is a documented fact that he did give a speech at valley forge with his prophecy in it. Newspapers of the day said so. many witnesses said so. many witnesses spoke to george washington about it later. Anthony sherman has the most detailed description of it, but there were other accounts as well recorded in history and they do not conflict with Sherman's. These accounts occurred over a period of 80 years beginning with newspaper accounts in 1777 and ending with Sherman's account in 1849. I did skim through your link - I thought it was real weak.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-11   19:28:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Red Jones (#38)

Nope. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Washington was a deist/rationalist and not prone to what deists would term superstitious nonsense like prophesies.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-11   19:44:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Destro (#39)

you don't know george washington.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-11   19:47:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Red Jones (#40)

you don't know george washington.

Nor did you,

But this is what people who knew him said of him:

"I know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did." -- Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, February, 1800, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572 ("Gouverneur Morris was the principal drafter of the Constitution of the United States; he was a member of the Continental Congress, a United States senator from New York, and minister to France. He accepted, to a considerable extent, the skeptical views of French Freethinkers." -- John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans.)

"I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them." -- Eleanor "Nellie" Parke Custis Lewis, Martha Washington's granddaughter from a previous marriage, quoted from Sparks' Washingon, also from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 22

"Sir, Washington was a Deist." -- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, rector of the church Washington had attended with his wife, to The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, upon Wilson's having inquired of Abercrombie regarding Washington's religious beliefs, quoted from John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans

"The pictures that represent him on his knees in the winter forest at Valley Forge are even silly caricatures. Washington was at least not sentimental, and he had nothing about him of the Pharisee that displays his religion at street corners or out in the woods in the sight of observers, or where his portrait could be taken by 'our special artist'!" -- The Reverend M J Savage, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 22

"There was a clergyman at this dinner who blessed the food and said grace after they had done eating and had brought in the wine. I was told that General Washington said grace when there was no clergyman at the table, as fathers of a family do in America. The first time that I dined with him there was no clergyman and I did not perceive that he made this prayer, yet I remember that on taking his place at the table, he made a gesture and said a word, which I took for a piece of politeness, and which was perhaps a religious action. In this case his prayer must have been short; the clergyman made use of more forms. We remained a very long time at the table. They drank 12 or 15 healths with Madeira wine. In the course of the meal beer was served and grum, rum mixed with water." -- Commissary-General Claude Blanchard, writing in his journal, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 23

"With respect to the inquiry you make, I can only state the following facts: that as pastor of the Episcopal Church, observing that, on sacramental Sundays George Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs. Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it. A few days after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church before the administration of the sacrament; that he honored the preacher for his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant, were he to become one then, it would be imputed to an ostentatious display of religious zeal, arising altogether from his elevated station. Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacrament Sunday, though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning." -- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, in a letter to a friend in 1833, Sprague's Annals of the American Pulpit, vol. 5, p. 394, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 25-26

"When Congress sat in Philadelphia, President Washington attended the Episcopal Church. The rector, Dr. Abercrombie, told me that on the days when the sacrament of the Lord's Supper was to be administered, Washington's custom was to arise just before the ceremony commenced, and walk out of the church. This became a subject of remark in the congregation, as setting a bad example. At length the Doctor undertook to speak of it, with a direct allusion to the President. Washington was heard afterwards to remark that this was the first time a clergyman had thus preached to him, and he should henceforth neither trouble the Doctor or his congregation on such occasions, and ever after that, upon communion days, 'he absented himself altogether from church.'" -- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, biographer of Bishop White, in his sermon on the "Religion of the Presidents," published in the Albany Daily Advertiser, in 1831, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more." -- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in an interview with Mr. Robert Dale Owen written on November 13, 1831, which was publlshed in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

"I called last evening on Dr. Wilson, as I told you I should, and I have seldom derived more pleasure from a short interview with anyone. Unless my discernment of character has been grievously at fault, I met an honest man and a sincere Christian. But you shall have the particulars. A gentleman of this city accompanied me to the Doctor's residence. We were very courteously received. I found him a tall, commanding figure, with a countenance of much benevolence, and a brow indicative of deep thought, apparently 50 years of age. I opened the interview by stating that though personally a stranger to him, I had taken the liberty of calling in consequence of having perused an interesting sermon of his, which had been reported in the Daily Advertiser of this city, and regarding which, as he probably knew, a variety of opinions prevailed. In a discussion, in which I had taken part, some of the facts as there reported had been questioned; and I wished to know from him whether the reporter had fairly given his words or not. I then read to him from a copy of the Daily Advertiser the paragraph which regards Washington, beginning, 'Washington was a man,' etc., and ending 'absented himself altogether from church.' 'I endorse,' said Dr. Wilson with emphasis, 'every word of that. Nay, I do not wish to conceal from you any part of the truth, even what I have not given to the public. Dr. Abercrombie said more than I have repeated. At the close of our conversation on the subject his emphatic expression was -- for I well remember the very words "Sir, Washington was a Deist."'" -- Mr. Robert Dale Owen, newspaper reporter, afterwards a member of Congress and later Minister to Naples, after interviewing Dr. Wilson, giving the substance of the interview in a letter written on November 13, 1831, which was published in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26-27

"In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that General Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant. I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them am as I now do you." -- The Right Reverend William White, the first bishop of Pennsylvania, friend of Washington and bishop of Christ's Church in Philadelphia, which Washington attend for about 25 years when he happened to be in that city, in a letter to Colonel Mercer of Fredericksberg, Virginia, on August 15, 1835, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

"Though the General attended the churches in which Dr. White officiated, whenever he was in Philadelphia during the Revolutionary War, and afterwards while President of the United States, he was never a communicant in them." -- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, from Wilson, Memoir of Bishop White, p. 188, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

"His behavior in church was always serious and attentive, but as your letter seems to intend an inquiry on the point of kneeling during the service, I owe it to the truth to declare that I never saw him in the said attitude.... Although I was often in the company of this great man, and had the honor of often dining at his table, I never heard anything from him which could manifest his opinions on the subject of religion.... Within a few days of his leaving the Presidential chair, our vestry waited on him with an address prepared and delivered by me. In his answer he was pleased to express himself gratified by what he had heard from our pulpit; but there was nothing that committed him relatively to religious theory." -- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a letter to the Rev B C C Parker, dated November 28, 1832, from Wilson, Memoir of Bishop White, pp. 189-191, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

"I do not believe that any degree of recollection will bring to my mind any fact which would prove General Washington to have been a believer in the Christian revelation further than as may be hoped from his constant attendance upon Christian worship, in connection with the general reserve of his character." -- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a letter to the Rev B C C Parker, dated December 31, 1832, from Wilson, Memoir of Bishop White, pp. 189-191, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 28

"I am sorry, after so long a delay in replying to your last, that it is not in my power to communicate something definite in reference to General Washington's church membership.... Nor can I find any old person who ever communed with him." -- Rev William Jackson, rector of Alexandria, Virginia, in response to a second appeal from Reverend Origen Bacheler, cited in The Bacheler-Owen Debate, vol. 2, p. 262, quoted in John E Remsburg's Six Historic Americans, pp. 110-111, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 28

"On communion Sundays, he left the church with me after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back after my grandmother." -- George Custis, letter to Mr. Sparks on February 26, 1833, in Sparks's Washington, p. 521, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 29

"Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice." -- Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572. (Asa Green "was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was chaplain to congress during Washington's administration." -- Farrell Till in "The Christian Nation Myth.")

"[Washington was] a total stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of another." -- John Bell, in 1779, in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 118, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

"I know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did." -- Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, February, 1800, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572 ("Gouverneur Morris was the principal drafter of the Constitution of the United States; he was a member of the Continental Congress, a United States senator from New York, and minister to France. He accepted, to a considerable extent, the skeptical views of French Freethinkers." -- John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans.)

"I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them." -- Eleanor "Nellie" Parke Custis Lewis, Martha Washington's granddaughter from a previous marriage, quoted from Sparks' Washingon, also from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 22

"Sir, Washington was a Deist." -- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, rector of the church Washington had attended with his wife, to The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, upon Wilson's having inquired of Abercrombie regarding Washington's religious beliefs, quoted from John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans

"The pictures that represent him on his knees in the winter forest at Valley Forge are even silly caricatures. Washington was at least not sentimental, and he had nothing about him of the Pharisee that displays his religion at street corners or out in the woods in the sight of observers, or where his portrait could be taken by 'our special artist'!" -- The Reverend M J Savage, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 22

"There was a clergyman at this dinner who blessed the food and said grace after they had done eating and had brought in the wine. I was told that General Washington said grace when there was no clergyman at the table, as fathers of a family do in America. The first time that I dined with him there was no clergyman and I did not perceive that he made this prayer, yet I remember that on taking his place at the table, he made a gesture and said a word, which I took for a piece of politeness, and which was perhaps a religious action. In this case his prayer must have been short; the clergyman made use of more forms. We remained a very long time at the table. They drank 12 or 15 healths with Madeira wine. In the course of the meal beer was served and grum, rum mixed with water." -- Commissary-General Claude Blanchard, writing in his journal, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 23

"With respect to the inquiry you make, I can only state the following facts: that as pastor of the Episcopal Church, observing that, on sacramental Sundays George Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs. Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it. A few days after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church before the administration of the sacrament; that he honored the preacher for his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant, were he to become one then, it would be imputed to an ostentatious display of religious zeal, arising altogether from his elevated station. Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacrament Sunday, though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning." -- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, in a letter to a friend in 1833, Sprague's Annals of the American Pulpit, vol. 5, p. 394, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 25-26

"When Congress sat in Philadelphia, President Washington attended the Episcopal Church. The rector, Dr. Abercrombie, told me that on the days when the sacrament of the Lord's Supper was to be administered, Washington's custom was to arise just before the ceremony commenced, and walk out of the church. This became a subject of remark in the congregation, as setting a bad example. At length the Doctor undertook to speak of it, with a direct allusion to the President. Washington was heard afterwards to remark that this was the first time a clergyman had thus preached to him, and he should henceforth neither trouble the Doctor or his congregation on such occasions, and ever after that, upon communion days, 'he absented himself altogether from church.'" -- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, biographer of Bishop White, in his sermon on the "Religion of the Presidents," published in the Albany Daily Advertiser, in 1831, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more." -- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in an interview with Mr. Robert Dale Owen written on November 13, 1831, which was publlshed in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

"I called last evening on Dr. Wilson, as I told you I should, and I have seldom derived more pleasure from a short interview with anyone. Unless my discernment of character has been grievously at fault, I met an honest man and a sincere Christian. But you shall have the particulars. A gentleman of this city accompanied me to the Doctor's residence. We were very courteously received. I found him a tall, commanding figure, with a countenance of much benevolence, and a brow indicative of deep thought, apparently 50 years of age. I opened the interview by stating that though personally a stranger to him, I had taken the liberty of calling in consequence of having perused an interesting sermon of his, which had been reported in the Daily Advertiser of this city, and regarding which, as he probably knew, a variety of opinions prevailed. In a discussion, in which I had taken part, some of the facts as there reported had been questioned; and I wished to know from him whether the reporter had fairly given his words or not. I then read to him from a copy of the Daily Advertiser the paragraph which regards Washington, beginning, 'Washington was a man,' etc., and ending 'absented himself altogether from church.' 'I endorse,' said Dr. Wilson with emphasis, 'every word of that. Nay, I do not wish to conceal from you any part of the truth, even what I have not given to the public. Dr. Abercrombie said more than I have repeated. At the close of our conversation on the subject his emphatic expression was -- for I well remember the very words "Sir, Washington was a Deist."'" -- Mr. Robert Dale Owen, newspaper reporter, afterwards a member of Congress and later Minister to Naples, after interviewing Dr. Wilson, giving the substance of the interview in a letter written on November 13, 1831, which was published in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26-27

"In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that General Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant. I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them am as I now do you." -- The Right Reverend William White, the first bishop of Pennsylvania, friend of Washington and bishop of Christ's Church in Philadelphia, which Washington attend for about 25 years when he happened to be in that city, in a letter to Colonel Mercer of Fredericksberg, Virginia, on August 15, 1835, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

"Though the General attended the churches in which Dr. White officiated, whenever he was in Philadelphia during the Revolutionary War, and afterwards while President of the United States, he was never a communicant in them." -- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, from Wilson, Memoir of Bishop White, p. 188, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

"His behavior in church was always serious and attentive, but as your letter seems to intend an inquiry on the point of kneeling during the service, I owe it to the truth to declare that I never saw him in the said attitude.... Although I was often in the company of this great man, and had the honor of often dining at his table, I never heard anything from him which could manifest his opinions on the subject of religion.... Within a few days of his leaving the Presidential chair, our vestry waited on him with an address prepared and delivered by me. In his answer he was pleased to express himself gratified by what he had heard from our pulpit; but there was nothing that committed him relatively to religious theory." -- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a letter to the Rev B C C Parker, dated November 28, 1832, from Wilson, Memoir of Bishop White, pp. 189-191, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

"I do not believe that any degree of recollection will bring to my mind any fact which would prove General Washington to have been a believer in the Christian revelation further than as may be hoped from his constant attendance upon Christian worship, in connection with the general reserve of his character." -- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a letter to the Rev B C C Parker, dated December 31, 1832, from Wilson, Memoir of Bishop White, pp. 189-191, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 28

"I find no one who ever communed with him." -- Rev William Jackson, rector of Alexandria, Virginia, in response to a letter from Reverend Origen Bacheler, cited in The Bacheler-Owen Debate, vol. 2, p. 262, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 28

"I am sorry, after so long a delay in replying to your last, that it is not in my power to communicate something definite in reference to General Washington's church membership.... Nor can I find any old person who ever communed with him." -- Rev William Jackson, rector of Alexandria, Virginia, in response to a second appeal from Reverend Origen Bacheler, cited in The Bacheler-Owen Debate, vol. 2, p. 262, quoted in John E Remsburg's Six Historic Americans, pp. 110-111, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 28

"On communion Sundays, he left the church with me after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back after my grandmother." -- George Custis, letter to Mr. Sparks on February 26, 1833, in Sparks's Washington, p. 521, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 29

"Unlike Thomas Jefferson -- and Thomas Paine, for that matter -- Washington never even got around to recording his belief that Christ was a great ethical teacher. His reticence on the subject was truly remarkable. Washington frequently alluded to Providence in his private correspondence. But the name of Christ, in any correspondence whatsoever, does not appear anywhere in his many letters to friends and associates throughout his life." -- Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion (1963) pp. 74-75, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church." Had Washington been a pious Christian, he would have at least mentioned the name of Christ!

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity.... "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." -- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831, first sentence quoted in John E Remsberg, "Six Historic Americans," second sentence quoted in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15

Destro  posted on  2006-10-11   22:33:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Destro (#41)

Other historians tell a completely different story. I read Richard Brooksheier's book about him that came out 10 years ago.

You and others are apparently advancing the theory that he played an elaborate charade by going to church and praying in public and speaking of god in his speeches.

you will go to much effort to be a naysayer. and you are so well prepared too.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-10-11   23:16:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 42.

#43. To: Red Jones (#42)

You and others are apparently advancing the theory that he played an elaborate charade by going to church and praying in public and speaking of god in his speeches.

Nope. Only to correct the attempt by fundamentalists to twist that era's kind of faith into the post Seciond Awakening type of faith system. Washington was religous but how he and his peers kept their faith and expressed it is not how modern Protestants express it - though this does not prevent them from upsursping Washington and twisting his faith for their motives.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-12 02:00:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 42.

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