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Title: View of a Military Expert: Why the Towers of the World Trade Center collapsed
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www.serendipity
URL Source: http://www.serendipity.li/wot/finn/5/soldier5.htm
Published: Oct 22, 2006
Author: anonymous Finn
Post Date: 2006-10-22 12:30:26 by robin
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View of a Military Expert: Why the Towers of the World Trade Center collapsed The airplanes did not a have true effect on the destruction of towers; they were needed to give an excuse for odd Orwellian wars at the same time when the USA is turned into a police nation, like the German Third Reich, to some extent. The towers took the impacts of crushing Boeing 767's. The towers were originally built to take impacts of Boeing 707's, which are approximately of the same size and was widely used in the 1970's. Fires that kindled from the fuel in the planes were too shortlasting and weak to be able to severely damage the structure of the skyscrapers. Even in the extreme situation, the heat from a kerosene fire cannot threat the durability of a steel trunk. With the temperature of carbohydrate fires that reaches only 825 °C (approx. 1517 °F) steel weakens at 800 °C (approx. 1470 °F) and melts at 1585 °C (approx. 2890 °F). In the skyscrapers of the WTC the surroundings were not at all ideal as there were far too many steel columns and they led heat away from the burning area. WTC 1 burned for 102 minutes and WTC 2 for 56 minutes only. A fire burning much longer, from 10 to 20 hours, could slowly increase the burning temperature down to perhaps 1100 °C (approx. 2010 °F). Provided there is more substance to burn, such a fire will damage concrete and irons, but not severely heavy steel constructions. In mid-February in Madrid, the Windsor Tower (see above) burned for over 20 hours, which led to a fire stronger and hotter than that in the WTC, but even the collapses of the Windsor Tower caused by the very strong and long-enduring fire were minimal and limited to the upper floors. If either of the WTC tower had started to collapse because of fires the collapse would have been limited to only a few of the floors and then stopped. The impossibility of a gravitational collapse is closer seen in other documents. A collapse would produce large pieces, and does not explain reports of fine dust from concrete, huge amounts of dust and pieces of steel ejected outwards. Destruction of the towers by explosions is clear according to the photographs and reports of the eye witnesses. In the picture below, a range of cutting charges have just exploded in the down left sector and a typical white cloud is formed outwards from the wall. Down right, explosions are seen as well. Even a flame is seen. In video tapes taken of the so-called collapses of the WTC, more explosions of these cutting charges can be seen. The explosions advance quickly, with a gap of a couple of floors, cutting the strong steel pillars in the outer wall. The explosions are timed so that it appears that the tower collapses occur in the same timing as in a gravitational collapse. The explosions are not completely synchronized in timing, probably a few charges are triggered by radio, and other charges explode out of the impulses of one of these charges (infrared, pressure wave). More challenging problems to the demolition men, however, were the central cores of the buildings and the 47 steel pillars more robust than the ones on the outer rounds. The pillars of the central cores were made of steel even 100 + 100 mm thick, thicker than the side armours of a battle tank. Cutting those, even with explosives, is extremely difficult. One would need to surround the whole pillars, every single pillar on every floor intended to get blasted, with powerful cutting charges. These charges would have needed to be placed in such a way that the users of the skyscrapers could not notice these preparations. As seen in the following pictures, the cores of the towers were not distracted by thousands of powerful cutting charges but by a modern thermonuclear explosive, a small hydrogen bomb. In the picture below, a hydrogen bomb explosion, the bomb having been placed in the cellar and directed to the core, has reached the roof of the tower and the upper parts of the outer walls. On its way up the waves of fire pressure partially penetrated about 100 floors of concrete and steel. Over ten million degrees of heat caused by a hydrogen bomb sublimised all water within the concrete in a moment. Water exploded extremely quickly into 24-fold volume and totally pulverized the concrete. Even people and computers that were in the buildings disappeared turning into heat and light. That is why almost nothing of them was found in the ruins. Burning radiation is absorbed in steel so quickly that steel heats up immediately over its melting point 1585 °C (approx. 2890 °F) and above its boiling point around 3000 C (approx. 5430 °F). In the pictures down below, super hot groups of steel pillars and columns, torn from wall by pressure wave, are sublimized. They immediately turn into a vaporized form, binding heat as quickly as possible. Bursts upwards, even visible in the picture below, are not possible for a gravitational collapse or for cutting charges which are used horizontally. In the upper picture the explosion is in theory 100 times stronger than in the picture below, but in practice the difference is only four times due to the capability of direction of the small hydrogen bomb. In the picture at the right, the brown shades caused by a hydrogen bomb are seen, while the top of the tower that is already collapsing is breaking down and the posture straightens up as the hydrogen bomb pulverized the core and it lost all its resistance. The piles point the blasts of the cutting charges. (Gehue plate 12) Extremely hot, sublimating pieces are not created with many methods. For comparison, pictures of subterranean nuclear explosions where the explosion is blasting onto surface and into the air: Ess1.2 Kt WTC 2 Banberry 10 Kt underground Radioactivity in air creates shades of brown. (The subterranean nuke in the picture on the right is 10 times stronger than the small nuke on the left.) This is the reason why the FBI did not search the crime scene. Ground zeros of nuclear weapons are a health risk and belong to the FEMA. Poster Comment: For the rest of this: Writings of a Finnish Military Expert on 9/11 Writings of a Finnish Military Expert on 9/11 Written in spring 2005, a modestly language-corrected version Corrected by another person than the original author. The photographs attached in this non-profit distribution are for securing volatile, important evidence on 9/11 for discussion and education. Author hereby grants full permission to reproduce the drawing 'The Bombs in the WTC' and his writings. You are encouraged to mail, publish and mass produce these documents or your enhanced versions of them. Due to concerns for his personal safety, the author has chosen to remain anonymous. And a glance at some of what he's fighting for (to keep it fair and balanced): 
Storax Sedan 104 Kt shallow underground
Steel pillars are turned into dust. 
The author has chosen to remain anonymous so I'll post this photo of a Finnish soldier. Why? Well because I like looking at Finns, even with green faces.
/9_11/$FILE/9_11.jpg)
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#148. To: IndieTX, yertleturtle (#135)
(Edited)
so that is why statisticians go into the construction business?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Funny!
God is always good! You mean you think I am the Man? You guys are delusional - and I think the events of 9/11 implicate the govt of the USA. Try again.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Don't test my debate skills. What expertise do you have to discern whether the "expert" is on the level? Do you believe him based on his credentials alone? Are you aware that "experts" have differing opinions?
You don't need engineering for Statistics
#149. To: Destro (#148)
tertleturtle
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#150. To: angle (#146)
The demolition of the towers and wtc7 is no honey trap...it's a fact. That's why you're so heavily invested in steering the discussion elsewhere.
#151. To: Destro, all (#147)
What expertise do you have to refute an actual expert?
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
#152. To: angle (#146)
The Towers were not "demo'ed" - all such discussion serves to deflect attention the American regimes implication in 9/11 and serves as a 'honey trap' to deflect resources from legit inquiries and discredit any notion of a conspiracy (and there is one). Where did these websites get their financing for their investigations? Pay for their webpages?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#153. To: IndieTX (#151)
Expert vs expert is acceptable.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#154. To: Destro (#153) (Edited)
First of all it would be necessary to define what an expert is. Does many years experience qualify one as an expert? Or does popular opinion make one an expert? Your expert could be my idiot, while my expert could be your idiot. Throwing the word expert around really means nothing in this discussion given your obvious lack of education on basic matters.
Expert vs expert is acceptable.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#155. To: RickyJ (#154)
Someone who works in that field is a good place to start.
First of all it would be necessary to define what an expert is.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#156. To: Destro (#110)
Well then, hush my mouth. All those qualifications and I'm arguing. Who do I think I am?
I work for a steel beam maker.
#157. To: Destro (#150) (Edited)
That's what I'm saying.
The demolition of the towers and wtc7 is no honey trap...it's a fact.
#158. To: angle (#156)
Not a case of who you are - but where do you get the notion that you can say the heat of a fire at such and such degrees does not weaken steel? It is a fact that around 500degrees C steel loses a majority of its strength. This was denied. I call out the person - where is your cred to say such a thing?
Well then, hush my mouth. All those qualifications and I'm arguing. Who do I think I am?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#159. To: Destro (#158)
You better call in the reinforcements if that's all ya got. The towers were demo'ed. There's no putting the cat back in the bag.
#160. To: angle (#159)
Read #124
You better call in the reinforcements if that's all ya got.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#161. To: Destro (#158)
#68. To: angle, lodwick (#66) It would not matter - just 400-500 degrees F would reduce the strength of steel by half. Now you say: It is a fact that around 500degrees C steel loses a majority of its strength. You're a lousy shill, but in case there may be one person out there considering that you may have any credibility, this post's for them.
First you say:
#162. To: angle (#159)
The towers were demo'ed. There's no putting the cat back in the bag. Yeah, he's definitely in need of reinforcements. He doesn't seem to understand the difference between Celsius and Fahrenheit, much less the gravitational attraction between masses.
You better call in the reinforcements if that's all ya got.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#163. To: Destro (#155) (Edited)
Now we must define what work in that field means.
Someone who works in that field is a good place to start.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#164. To: angle (#161)
A self-cleaning oven is an oven which uses high temperature (approximately 900 degrees Fahrenheit - 482 degrees Celsius) to burn off leftovers from baking, without the use of any chemical agents. A self cleaning oven is designed to stay locked until high temperature process is completed. Mechanical interlock (patented in 1982.) is used to keep the oven door locked and closed during and soon after the high-temperature cleaning cycle, which lasts approximately three hours. Oven doors stays locked to prevent possible burn injuries. Oven doors can be opened again after the temperature in oven cools to approximately 600 F (315 C).
FYI
you'll ever get is when they lower the box. - Hud 1963
#165. To: Destro (#152)
Disinformation is part art and part science. The CIA has been perfecting it for years. I have no doubt many 9/11 sites are meant to keep people away from the real truth and discredit it among others. You have to have the intelligence to see through the crap and do your own independent investigations based on the only hard evidence that has survived since 9/11, the videos of the buildings collapsing. No amount of disinformation in the world will be able to cover up the fact they were brought down on cue by our government with explosives as long as those many original eyewitness pictures and videos remain available to the masses. Some day this will be common knowledge and people like you will either be known as idiots, or agents of the evil regime that carried out this atrocity upon the citizens of the USA.
Where did these websites get their financing for their investigations? Pay for their webpages?
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#166. To: RickyJ (#165)
You actually think stuff like that happens on cue? Like some Rube Golberg device? The world does not work that way.
No amount of disinformation in the world will be able to cover up the fact they were brought down on cue by our government
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#167. To: RickyJ (#165)
You know what we will think? Why are the American people - well you poseurs that think the demolitions were planted in any case - not rising up in arms? Ambushing soldiers? Police? Targeting political officials and govt employees? In Hungry the people are rioting in the streets over the govt fudging the economic data and you saps sit around saying the govt dynamited buildings down. I don't know about you but if I accepted the govt was dynamiting buildings I wold arm myself get some guys and start killing the enemy. The fact that you types have not risen up in arms to end this evil to me indicates that this is an intellectual fantasy on your parts - a way to give form to your fears of Big Brother. The Black Helicopter - FEMA is the shadow govt - UN troops are hiding in American bases ready to take over the USA for the UN crowd from the 90s who found a new expression for their frights after 9/11.
Some day this will be common knowledge and people like you will either be known as idiots, or agents of the evil regime that carried out this atrocity upon the citizens of the USA.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#168. To: Destro (#167)
Ambushing soldiers? Police? Targeting political officials and govt employees? In Hungry the people are rioting in the streets over the govt fudging the economic data and you saps sit around saying the govt dynamited buildings down. I don't know about you but if I accepted the govt was dynamiting buildings I wold arm myself get some guys and start killing the enemy. The fact that you types have not risen up in arms to end this evil to me indicates that this is an intellectual fantasy on your parts - Why? Because the sheople don't give a damn just as they are not rising up at the destruction of the Constitution and their Freedom in the name of "safety." Neither did they rise up for the Weavers or Waco. Does this mean by your logic that it isn't happening? Of course not. People alone will end up incarcerated or dead and most have children they don't want to leave behind. It will only work if everyone does it. That doesn't say much for the backbone of the cowards in this country. Believe me, if I had no children [something to live for], I'd have made the front page already doing exactly as you suggest. Your argument in no way discounts the veracity of what is going on. 9-11 notwithstanding, why in your opinion have people not risen up against the theft of their Freedom..or do you not think that that has happened either?
Why are the American people - well you poseurs that think the demolitions were planted in any case - not rising up in arms?
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
#169. To: angle (#161)
Excuse me for mistyping F when I should have written C - in any case you tell me at what temperature steel loses strength in? Can you tell me a temperature by temperature analysis of the lowering of steel strength till failure?
First you say:
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#170. To: RickyJ (#163)
So in other words you have no experts in those fields just guys who write stuff.
Now we must define what work in that field means.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#171. To: IndieTX (#168)
You guys are not sheeple - you guys are claiming this happened - - hence you can't be sheep - Why do this if you don't care abou the sheeple? self defense - revenge - two reasons - go for it. Fakers. That is the real sin on you guys part - claiming such a thing and then not doing what needs be done. Anyone who claims they know the govt planted explosives in the buildings and allows such people to rule them is deserving of contempt.
Why? Because the sheople
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#172. To: Destro (#170)
I have? I am not relying on any, I repeat, any so-called “experts” or lay people for my conclusions of what happened on 9/11. I am relying on the evidence that is readily available and using own knowledge of physics and structures, in particular the WTC towers, to reach my determination that the towers did not come in the manner they did due to the planes hitting them and the resulting fires. If you must rely on "experts" to have an opinion on this matter then I would suggest physics researcher Dr. Stephen Jones.
So in other words you have no experts in those fields just guys who write stuff.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#173. To: IndieTX (#168)
The people will rise up when their actions affects a critical mass of people and the elite know that. That's why concentration camps have been built all over the USA.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#174. To: angle, RickyJ (#161)
And you know who you are a lousy shill for? MI6/CIA. By trying to focus on explosives in buildings you are distracting people from focusing on the MI6/CIA Mujahideen networks that existed and still exist. Useful idiots to the American regime.
You're a lousy shill
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#175. To: Destro (#171) (Edited)
You ask for an explanation and dismiss it out of hand. You are no longer worth arguing with. Typical Bot tactic. AND you fail to answer my question of you. Why haven't you risen up for reasons other than 9-11 I ask again? Because you are a StateInc shill.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
#176. To: Destro, angle, RickyJ (#174)
Well go for it Destro(y). Give us the goods on the "MI6/CIA Mujahideen networks that existed and still exist". You might even get some credibility
By trying to focus on explosives in buildings you are distracting people from focusing on the MI6/CIA Mujahideen networks that existed and still exist.
#177. To: tom007 (#176) (Edited)
You might even get some credibility Start here: The Yugoslav Caldron “The CIA recruited and trained the jihadists” Also here: From: A Half- Dozen Questions About 9/11 They Don't Want You to Ask More dispositive than these speculations, however, are the very real connections between Washington and Islamic jihadists in the Balkans throughout the 1990s. The report hints at this relationship by mentioning the presence of charity fronts of bin Laden's "network" in Zagreb and Sarajevo. In fact, the U.S. government engaged in a massive covert operation to infiltrate Islamic fighters, many of them veterans of the Afghan war, into the Balkans for the purpose of undermining the Milosevic government. The "arms embargo," enforced by the U.S. military, was a cover for this activity (i.e., using military force to keep prying eyes from seeing what was going on). A key Washington fixer for the Muslim government of Bosnia was the law firm of Feith and Zell. Yes, Douglas Feith, one of the principal conspirators involved in launching the Iraq war under the banner of opposing Islamic terrorism, was a proponent of introducing Islamic terrorists into South Eastern Europe. Do the "Islamofascists" of pseudo-conservative demonology accordingly seem less like satanic enemies and more like puppets dangling from an unseen hand? Or perhaps the analogy is incorrect: more like a Frankenstein's Monster that has slipped the control of its creator.
Give us the goods on the "MI6/CIA Mujahideen networks that existed and still exist".
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#178. To: Destro (#169)
In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900º C (1,500- 1,700º F) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 600º C (1,100º F), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments). At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7. Why couldn't such dramatic reductions in the strength of the steel precipitate such total collapse events? High-rise buildings are over-engineered to have strength many times greater than would needed to survive the most extreme conditions anticipated. It may take well over a ten-fold reduction in strength to cause a structural failure. If a steel structure does experience a collapse due to extreme temperatures, the collapse tends to remain localized to the area that experienced the high temperatures. The kind of low-carbon steel used in buildings and automobiles bends rather than shatters. If part of a structure is compromised by extreme temperatures, it may bend in that region, conceivably causing a large part of the structure to sag or even topple. However, there is no example of a steel structure crumbling into many pieces because of any combination of structural damage and heating, outside of the alleged cases of the Twin Towers and Building 7.
you'll ever get is when they lower the box. - Hud 1963
#179. To: Esso (#178)
SUPERB!
Mark
The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent
Given the scope of the tragedy from last week, I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C., that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink."— Christie Todd Whitman - 9/18/2001
#180. To: Destro (#169)
You're the one trying to discredit the fact that the towers were demo'ed. The onus is on you, shill.
Can you tell me a temperature by temperature analysis
#181. To: RickyJ (#173)
the truth is common knowledge. That's why these shills are desperately trying to distract from the fact that the towers were demo'ed. It is the catalyst for the end of the neocons.
The people will rise up when
#182. To: Esso, Kamala (#178)
Because they don't have an aircraft shear their support structures - the WTC and WTC7 were not your standard frame built skyscrapers - There were no internal beams for example - so you can get that open air office. See examples: http://www.concretethinking.org/main.asp?page=827 The ability of structural steel to withstand major fires is under scrutiny. The latest findings of the US-based National Institute of Standards and Technology into the collapse of the World Trade Center couple with the recent collapse in fire of the perimeter steel columns of the Madrid Windsor Torre building question the performance of structural steel in fires in high rise buildings. And it is not just in high rise buildings. The avocation by the UK Chief Fire Officers' Association of a boycott of fire fighters entering burning steel framed superstores and warehouses is also raising questions about the use of steel for low rise buildings reports Anna Scothern, Head of Performance at The Concrete Centre. http://www.emporis.com/en/bu/nc/ne/?id=101283 Madrid: A fire of an unknown source has affected one of Madrid's most famous skyscraper. The fire began at the 21st floor at about 22.30 GMT Saturday 12th of February and rapedly extended along the building. Torre Windsor had been under renovation works for the past year and fortunately the building remained empty. Part of the facade has collapsed and firefighters had to abandoned the building due to the risk of collpasing of the structure.
Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7. Why couldn't such dramatic reductions in the strength of the steel precipitate such total collapse events?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#183. To: rickyj, angle (#178)
Because they don't have an aircraft shear their support structures - the WTC and WTC7 were not your standard frame built skyscrapers - There were no internal beams for example - so you can get that open air office. See examples: http://www.concretethinking.org/main.asp?page=827 The ability of structural steel to withstand major fires is under scrutiny. The latest findings of the US-based National Institute of Standards and Technology into the collapse of the World Trade Center couple with the recent collapse in fire of the perimeter steel columns of the Madrid Windsor Torre building question the performance of structural steel in fires in high rise buildings. And it is not just in high rise buildings. The avocation by the UK Chief Fire Officers' Association of a boycott of fire fighters entering burning steel framed superstores and warehouses is also raising questions about the use of steel for low rise buildings reports Anna Scothern, Head of Performance at The Concrete Centre. http://www.emporis.com/en/bu/nc/ne/?id=101283 Madrid: A fire of an unknown source has affected one of Madrid's most famous skyscraper. The fire began at the 21st floor at about 22.30 GMT Saturday 12th of February and rapedly extended along the building. Torre Windsor had been under renovation works for the past year and fortunately the building remained empty. Part of the facade has collapsed and firefighters had to abandoned the building due to the risk of collpasing of the structure.
Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7. Why couldn't such dramatic reductions in the strength of the steel precipitate such total collapse events?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#184. To: angle (#180)
You are nothing but a CIA/MI6/NATO ball licker.
You're the one trying to discredit the fact that the towers were demo'ed. The onus is on you, shill.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#185. To: Destro (#183)
Facade from any dictionary: The outside front wall of a building. Examples: Facade materials for a building include: • aluminum • brick • glass • masonry • wood
#186. To: Destro (#183)
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/9-11_wtc_videos.html "Never before in history has a steel high rise building collapsed simply because of fire. On 9/11, by coincidence, three such buildings collapsed in ten to fifteen seconds, almost freefall speed. In other words, if you dropped a brick from the top of the World Trade Center it would have taken about that time to hit the ground."
#187. To: robin (#186)
Except in Madrid. There goes your exceptionalisim argument.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
#188. To: Destro (#183)
Liar, liar, pants on fire. If the aircraft did shear the support structures then the buildings would have toppled over when the planes hit them. Obviously that didn't happen, they didn't even sway any more than a windy day would have made them sway. On 9/11 there was no wind to speak of in NY City from what I have heard, so that additional normal horizontal stress on the building was not present that day. It is a blatant lie to say there were no internal beams when there were 47 core columns in each tower. When one has to resort to lying to defend a theory, it is a good sign the theory they support is wrong.
Because they don't have an aircraft shear their support structures - the WTC and WTC7 were not your standard frame built skyscrapers - There were no internal beams for example - so you can get that open air office.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
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