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Religion
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Title: College removes cross – from chapel!
Source: WND
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52646
Published: Oct 27, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-10-27 12:39:53 by bluegrass
Ping List: *New History*
Keywords: None
Views: 4202
Comments: 252

The cross from the altar area of the chapel at the College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., has been removed to ensure the space is seen as a nondenominational area, explains Melissa Engimann, assistant director for Historic Campus.

"In order to make the Wren Chapel less of a faith-specific space, and to make it more welcoming to students, faculty, staff and visitors of all faiths, the cross has been removed from the altar area," Engimann announced in an e-mail to staff.

The cross will be returned to the altar for those who wish to use it for events, services or private prayer.

The cross was in place because of the college's former association with the Anglican Church. Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906, the room will still be considered a chapel, college officials said.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 118.

#1. To: bluegrass (#0)

This is kind of a private matter - it's not like this came from a court order, etc.

So it really is non of our business.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   12:50:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The chapel is part of the Wren Building, the oldest academic building in America. It's had a cross in it since the chapel was added in 1732.

This is akin to what the Bolsheviks did to Russian religious history during their tyranny.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   13:05:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The chapel is part of the Wren Building, the oldest academic building in America. It's had a cross in it since the chapel was added in 1732.

It's a private matter - none of my business or yours.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   14:16:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

It's a private matter - none of my business or yours.

I live in Virginia. W&M is a "public" school.

It's my biz.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   14:20:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I live in Virginia. W&M is a "public" school.

Then the cross should be removed since the state should not fund a religous specific chapel.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   14:22:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

By that reasoning, the publicly funded 'Holocaust' Museum in DC should have all of the six-pointed stars removed.

The larger issue is that the State has no business supporting universities.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   14:25:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

By that reasoning, the publicly funded 'Holocaust' Museum in DC should have all of the six-pointed stars removed.

A) I am against the existence of the Holocaust musuem in America - if it should exist anywhere it should be in Berlin/Europe.

With that said:

B) The Star of David was used as a identifying symbol by the Nazis so you could not have it removed from a museum that touches on the subject.

C) Was not the schismatic and heretical Anglican church founded by an overweight serial killer?

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   14:28:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The German Nazis used the genocide and 'ethnic cleansing' of Native Americans as one of the models to plan and execute their genocide and ethnic cleansing of those they found odious.

I would keep the museum and make the Shoah exhibit a wing. It needs exhibits showing what happened to 'New World' peoples, and to peoples in all the other corners of the world when their particular 'holocausts' happened.

The lesson that the museum teaches is an important one, it just need to be reorganized and changed to show that this is a sort of thing that has happened in different degrees at different times in human history.

To make it just cover the Shoah, it sends the false message that what the Nazis did was highly unusual, when in fact, it isn't. The museum is needed because this sort of thing will happen again if we don't use all the tools at our disposal to remember history to keep from repeating it.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-27   14:39:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The German Nazis used the genocide and 'ethnic cleansing' of Native Americans as one of the models to plan and execute their genocide and ethnic cleansing of those they found odious.

I would keep the museum and make the Shoah exhibit a wing. It needs exhibits showing what happened to 'New World' peoples, and to peoples in all the other corners of the world when their particular 'holocausts' happened.

The lesson that the museum teaches is an important one, it just need to be reorganized and changed to show that this is a sort of thing that has happened in different degrees at different times in human history.

To make it just cover the Shoah, it sends the false message that what the Nazis did was highly unusual, when in fact, it isn't. The museum is needed because this sort of thing will happen again if we don't use all the tools at our disposal to remember history to keep from repeating it.

Hell Mike it's going to happen again no matter how many museums are put up; you can't change human nature and human beings are warlike creatures. In fact it is happening in the Middle East, and other parts of the world that we don't hear much about.

If there is one thing I have learned these past few years, it's that people in general can and do behave like monsters.

I think your claim about the nazis using the extermination of American Indians as a model is an urban legend of sorts, as the vast majority of Indians died from diseases they had no immunity against, and there was no concrete policy carried out to exterminate Native Americans, it happened over a long period of time, an incident here, incident there, and was not an organized effort.

As long as there are people, there will be selfishness, cruelty and cowardly behavior. As this country descends further into dictatorship, look for many cowards to come crawling out of the woodwork (for instance those who rat on others in order to score brownie points with those they perceive as being the powerful ones).

Diana  posted on  2006-10-27   17:37:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

"I think your claim about the Nazis using the extermination of American Indians as a model is an urban legend of sorts, as the vast majority of Indians died from diseases they had no immunity against, and there was no concrete policy carried out to exterminate Native Americans, it happened over a long period of time, an incident here, incident there, and was not an organized effort."

There was a policy to destroy Native American culture and any indigenous people who resisted at best. This policy's cornerstone is 'the Doctrine of Discovery' that denied sovereignty or recognition of non-Christian people.

To understand the connection between Christendom's principle of discovery and the laws of the United States, we need to begin by examining a papal document issued forty years before Columbus' historic voyage In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued to King Alfonso V of Portugal the bull Romanus Pontifex, declaring war against all non-Christians throughout the world, and specifically sanctioning and promoting the conquest, colonization, and exploitation of non- Christian nations and their territories.

Under various theological and legal doctrines formulated during and after the Crusades, non-Christians were considered enemies of the Catholic faith and, as such, less than human. Accordingly, in the bull of 1452, Pope Nicholas directed King Alfonso to "capture, vanquish, and subdue the saracens, pagans, and other enemies of Christ," to "put them into perpetual slavery," and "to take all their possessions and property." [Davenport: 20-26] Acting on this papal privilege, Portugal continued to traffic in African slaves, and expanded its royal dominions by making "discoveries" along the western coast of Africa, claiming those lands as Portuguese territory.

Thus, when Columbus sailed west across the Sea of Darkness in 1492 - with the express understanding that he was authorized to "take possession" of any lands he "discovered" that were "not under the dominion of any Christian rulers" - he and the Spanish sovereigns of Aragon and Castile were following an already well- established tradition of "discovery" and conquest. [Thacher:96] Indeed, after Columbus returned to Europe, Pope Alexander VI issued a papal document, the bull Inter Cetera of May 3, 1493, "granting" to Spain - at the request of Ferdinand and Isabella - the right to conquer the lands which Columbus had already found, as well as any lands which Spain might "discover" in the future.

In the Inter Cetera document, Pope Alexander stated his desire that the "discovered" people be "subjugated and brought to the faith itself." [Davenport:61] By this means, said the pope, the "Christian Empire" would be propagated. [Thacher:127] When Portugal protested this concession to Spain, Pope Alexander stipulated in a subsequent bull - issued May 4, 1493 - that Spain must not attempt to establish its dominion over lands which had already "come into the possession of any Christian lords." [Davenport:68] Then, to placate the two rival monarchs, the pope drew a line of demarcation between the two poles, giving Spain rights of conquest and dominion over one side of the globe, and Portugal over the other.

http://ili.nativeweb.org/sdrm_art. html

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-27   19:09:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

non-Christians were considered enemies of the Catholic faith and, as such, less than human.

I wonder what part of the Old Testament the Catholics got that from?

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   19:12:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

"I wonder what part of the Old Testament the Catholics got that from?"

Good question. As someone profoundly glad I am not Catholic who was inflicted with that faith growing up -- I have not much sympathy nor love for that organization. I don't have much love for organized religion anyway, but as far as the Catholic Church goes, familiarity breed contempt, I know it so well wild horses couldn't drag me to another Mass.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-27   19:33:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Pagans as well as Christians carried out policies that we would label genocide today. What the then arriving pagan Anglo-Saxon Jutes did to the native Welsh who were Celtic Christian at that time could be labeled as genocide.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28   15:42:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

"Pagans as well as Christians carried out policies that we would label genocide today. What the then arriving pagan Anglo-Saxon Jutes did to the native Welsh who were Celtic Christian at that time could be labeled as genocide."

"Well....the other kids do it to" doesn't work on parents who have a brain, and you are going to have to do much much better then this to impress me.

Thanks for the eye roller.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-28   15:47:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

"Well....the other kids do it to" doesn't work on parents who have a brain, and you are going to have to do much much better then this to impress me.

I was commenting on Bluegrass' repeated assertions that genocide was a Jewish invention.

Work on reading comprehension.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28   15:50:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Listen; first of all, Pagan originated as a label of people like me in a derogatory sense. And I have listened to Christians and others attack my religion enough so I don't like it thrown out there as the originator of something like genocide.

I agree with you that the notion that Jewish people started genocide is absurd. Genocide is older than human history. The mere fact that there were more then one species of intelligent hominid and we are the only one left standing speaks volumes of genocide.

By virtue of us surviving, one good assumption one can make is that we are the most violent and warlike of the species of intelligent apes that once roamed this planet.

I like you Distro, and I mean nothing personal by snapping at you, but your post was not clear on what point you were making, and it is very understandable for me as a Wicca practitioner to see that post and immediately get aggrivated.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-28   16:07:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Listen; first of all, Pagan originated as a label of people like me in a derogatory sense. And I have listened to Christians and others attack my religion enough so I don't like it thrown out there as the originator of something like genocide.

That's a cross you in the west have to bear - pagan as a derogatory word does not exist in Eastern Christianity. Pagan just means peasant folk. In the east they attack the idolator rather than pagan.

That's why you had witch burnings in the west but no witch burnings in the east.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28   17:06:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

"That's a cross you in the west have to bear..."

And you use a Roman torture device Christians use as a symbol because...?

"That's why you had witch burnings in the west but no witch burnings in the east."

And what proof of this can you cite? I am curious where you get this factoid.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-28   17:17:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

And what proof of this can you cite? I am curious where you get this factoid.

Easy enough - find one case of witch burnings in the eastern world. It was a Latin Catholic and Protestant error not an Eastern Christian one.

Pagan just means the folk beliefs of the rural people.

As such the eastern church viewed such beliefs as legitimate and potions and the like on par with folk medicines.

For example the Orthodox church accepts the pagan (folk) belief evil eye phenomenon which predates Christianity.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28   17:24:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

"Historically, the term "pagan" has usually had pejorative connotations among westerners, comparable to heathen, infidel and kafir in Islam."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

Just to give you an idea where I was coming from.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-28   17:29:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

"Historically, the term "pagan" has usually had pejorative connotations among westerners, comparable to heathen, infidel and kafir in Islam."

Like I said - That's a cross you in the west have to bear - pagan as a derogatory word does not exist in Eastern Christianity. Pagan just means peasant folk. In the east they attack the idolator rather than pagan.

That's why you had witch burnings in the west but no witch burnings in the east.

See #110 above.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28   17:31:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

"That's a cross you in the west have to bear..."

Wiccans don't bear or wear crosses, thanks.

Let the blessings be.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-28   17:33:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

#120. To: Ferret Mike (#118)

Wiccans don't bear or wear crosses, thanks.

There are no such things - if you say neo-wiccans then I would accept that term.

Neo-Wiccans is a modern recreation of wiccan practice the way Civil War reenactors can't claim they are directly connected with the Civil War.

Unless you can trace me your wiccan teachers generation to generation you can't claim to be from them just a recreation of them.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28 17:40:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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