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Title: College removes cross – from chapel!
Source:
WND
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52646
Published: Oct 27, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-10-27 12:39:53 by bluegrass
Ping List: *New History*
Keywords: None
Views: 4455
Comments: 252
The cross from the altar area of the chapel at the College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., has been removed to ensure the space is seen as a nondenominational area, explains Melissa Engimann, assistant director for Historic Campus. "In order to make the Wren Chapel less of a faith-specific space, and to make it more welcoming to students, faculty, staff and visitors of all faiths, the cross has been removed from the altar area," Engimann announced in an e-mail to staff. The cross will be returned to the altar for those who wish to use it for events, services or private prayer. The cross was in place because of the college's former association with the Anglican Church. Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906, the room will still be considered a chapel, college officials said.
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#122. To: Ferret Mike (#121)
Wicca is a modern recreation of a belief system from the past.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Want to return teh school to the Anglican church? Then America should not have fought the American revolution. No we fought the revolution to have our own nation, not to be dominated by others, to be captains of our destiny. In the course of building a nation we have accumulated traditions and a good deal of history. Why not leave traditions, history alone when they harm no one except for a small group of politically correct (often bordering on Christophobia)who wish to dominate our nation with their narrow and selfish point of view? For how many decades have students of various denominations used this chapel to pray to their own faith's Lord and only now a Ms. Melissa Engifinkelstein oops Engimann, assistant director for the historic Campus, wants to remove the cross? I'm sorry but our forefathers did not fight the revolution to take on the yoke of political correctness and self-serving views as promoted by the likes of Ms. Engimann. The fedgov't did not thrust a cross into the chapel of W&M out of the blue to promote a federally sanctioned religion. This cross has historical import to the school and no contemporary fast fade mortal has the right to dissolve history and tradition with a stroke of a pen to a memo. This self- important administrator should be over ruled forthwith by the university's board of governors. Let Ms. Engimann find a job elsewhere maybe flipping burgers at a non-denominational food outlet - she does not appreciate tradition or history and should be allowed near repositories of those values.
This is what these Founding Fathers had to say on tradition and history: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" -- Thomas Jefferson
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I didn't say it did you word-twister you.
Some whites seem to have a persecution complex making them whiney/ As far as Arabs and Muslims, look at their blood stained wars all around the globe and then talk to me about propaganda. People don't like being blamed for things that other people did, especially when those things go against a person's nature and values. There's just so much blame and finger-pointing going on for things that happened when we were not alive yet. For instance I am anti-war and I believe all living things have souls and we all matter equally. I would never want to be associated with bad acts commited by whites just because I am white.
It was recreated because the Goddess never died. It is people celebrating a religion and is a living breathing faith.
I accept that. I am glad you accepted my characterization of Wicca as a recreation - I attempt to convert no one.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Then why did you and Bluegrass harp on about Israel?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" -- Thomas Jefferson Oh really? What a clever response. Well you given me 2 out of context quotations and nothing from or about the man who laid down the principles of our Bill of Rights - George Mason - and whom George Washington (Mason's neighbor) and Thomas Jefferson greatly admired. Fyi, George Mason was a heavy duty man of faith and along with his neighbor, George Washington, served on the [church] building committee of Truro Parish, which consisted of three churches. There have been books published with George Washington's Prayers and his addresses to the churches. James Madison declared January 12, 1815 " A Day of Public Humiliation and Fasting"..."The two houses of the National Legislature having, by a joint resolution expressed their desire that, in the present time of public calamity and war, a day may be recommended to be observed by the people of the United States as a day of public humiliation and fasting, and of prayer to Almighty god for the safety and welfare of these States, his blessing on their arms and a speedy restoration of peace..." So all in all I have every reason to believe that George Mason, George Washington, and James Madison would be appalled to see Ms. Engimann's somewhat small minded Christophic behavior. W&M became a public college in 1906, so for 60 long years students and administrators came and went without being offended by the cross in the college chapel and only now, 60 years later, an anti-Christian bureaucrat decides to tear assunder history and tradition "for the common good." Pardon me but I smell something rather odiferous and selfish in Ms. Engifinkelstein ooops Ms. Engimann's action.
These shrill, hysterical, hate filled, mindless rants of yours do nothing to convnice others of your point of view. Try presenting facts or a logical argument instad. Read up on what you wnat to pontificate on. Remember that Wikipedia is not a souce. Being able to shriek mindless hate louder than anyone else in the room just makes you come off as a hot flash buffoon on a hormone binge.
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Being able to shriek mindless hate louder than anyone else in the room just makes you come off as a hot flash buffoon on a hormone binge. Uh...did I quote wikipedia to you in this thread? Errr...how am I supposed to respond to your post?...thank you for your educated calm response (NOT). I am always struck but your intellectual gravitas (NOT). What is your point with this post? You have not added one single iota of fact or considered opinion or new insight to our discussion about the W&M article. Indeed, you did not even allude to W&M once in your tirade against me personally. Your empty ad hominem attack is rather self-revealing, I'm afraid.
Less of an error religious fundamentalists in America make when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking. It is no accident that blue blooded WASP Freemason/Skull&Bones man like Bush called Jesus his favorite philosopher. To a student of the esoteric - such a statement was telling even if it went over people's heads.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Have another glass of Chardonnay and tell Ferret what a worthless idiot he is again. Are you buckeroo on another ID?
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Now what are you referring to? I thought I was harping on about how what happened to the American Indians.
He's very good at that sort of thing. Now I have to go through this thread to see where I was harping on about Israel. Perhaps he is referring to my response when he said, "mind your own business" and said Israel does not mind it's own business. So that must mean I went on and on and on putting down Israel, in his mind anyway. I'm glad to see you running circles around him. He likes to distort and twist things though I know you see it too.
It is no accident that blue blooded WASP Freemason/Skull&Bones man like Bush called Jesus his favorite philosopher. Whether our nation's founding fathers were deists and church going Christians in name only is not the point. They believed in freedom to practice religion without interference from the government and they did not fear Christian symbols because the vast majority of early Americans were practising Christians and Christian symbolism has been embedded in every nook and corner of our nation's foundation - from our monies to our federal government building decor to our national anthem to our judicial system, heavens even our most powerful elected executive is sworn into office with a New Testament Bible. Our founding fathers did not fear history or tradition - many of them admired Greek and Roman philosophers and also period architecture whose styles were integrated into our lovely DC federal government buildings. Secularism is a post modern concept that a minority of followers have used to tyrannize our country, to rob our nation of commonly understood and respected history and traditions. It is people like the Michael Newhouse's and the Ms. Engimann's who are even more dangerous than the fundies because the fundies rarely get into a position to impose their will on our nation's rich heritage. Who cares what George Bush believes in? His religious beliefs are irrelevant. The historical underpinnings of this Christian nation are immortal. This is a Christian nation - always has and always will be. No mere mortal passing through time should have any right to "delete" history due to personal fear or prejudice against a Christian symbol in her midst. This administrator at W&M should be fired. She has no appreciation of history, of what far better people than her have contributed to this nation generally, to W&M specifically, in times past. She should not be allowed to work in a college with history like W&M. If she likes a so called secular modern national environment, let her immigrate to Israel. She most likely could apply for citizenship there.
Are you buckeroo on another ID? What it is your point or rather what is your problem? Did I tell Ferret he was a worthless idiot? I believe I did not. You however view Ferret as a worthless idiot. I notice there's a heck of a lot of self- projected insult to Ferret going on but that's a problem between him and you, don't drag me into it. You have not contributed 1 single salient good idea to this discussion thread about the W&M issue. Buzz off and read some books on google, go to the library and borrow some books, or go to a bookstore and stand around books, whatever it takes to fill our head with something other than the sense of inadequacy, inferiority you obviously feel since you are unable to discuss politics or even come up with a cyber moniker that is a derivative of an English word. I feel sorry for you but I'm not a psychiatrist.
The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part: "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797. Also recall that almost from the inception there was an active movement to pass a Constitutional Amendment declaring the US a Christian Nation. This effort repeatedly failed and the effort was eventually abandonned sometime around the Civil War.
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To support my contention that America always has been a Christian nation from its founding to the present: a. Historic foundation Courtesy of the Library of Congress historical archives: "Religion and the founding of the American Republic" http://www.loc.gov/exhibi ts/religion/rel04.html b. Christian religious identification continues today "American Religious Identification Survey" http ://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm * the proportion of the population that can be classified as Christian has declined from eighty-six in 1990 to seventy-seven percent in 2001; * although the number of adults who classify themselves in non-Christian religious groups has increased from about 5.8 million to about 7.7 million, the proportion of non-Christians has increased only by a very small amount - from 3.3 % to about 3.7 %; * the greatest increase in absolute as well as in percentage terms has been among those adults who do not subscribe to any religious identification; their number has more than doubled from 14.3 million in 1990 to 29.4 million in 2001; their proportion has grown from just eight percent of the total in 1990 to over fourteen percent in 2001 "Secularists" represent an insignificant minority in this nation - they better get used to seeing Christian symbolism in their midst because the trend for self- identification with Christianity will only become more pronounced after the 20- 40 MILLION illegal CATHOLIC Hispanics get legalized, which will happen post haste after the November elections. Within the next 25-50 years I predict we will have a CATHOLIC Hispanic President and there will be crosses here, there will be crosses there, there will be crosses everywhere, so the Missy Engimanns better invest in blinders for their "secular" ( wink, wink) eyes, if they want to stick around America.
Btw, nice informative post.
The type of Christians the Founding Fathers were in no way resembles how the fundamentalists in America make them out to be when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking. The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part: "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The USA is and was a Christian nation. The founding fathers were practising Christians. The first amendment of the constitution guarantees a citizens right to practice his/her religion without interference from government. This article has nothing to do with government interfering or imposing a religion. W&M was established as a private college and is the second oldest campus in the USA. W&M's chapel with its cross has been there since the college's founding. The cross remained in its chapel for 60 ( count them 6-0) long years after W&M was made a public college without causing problems for the students and professors. Suddenly in 2006 one non-Christian administrator has imposed her personal Christophobic beliefs on tradition and history. Her decision has ZERO to do with a federal or state order. No court order was issued to our best knowledge. She should be fired for imposing her will, her personal beliefs on a chapel that reflects Americana history and Christian tradition. P.S. I'm not a Protestant but I am an American who respects tradition and history. I do not respect tyrants. I do not respect Ms. Engimann's decision.
Which ones? "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY) "The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
It's been a chapel since 1732. I've never encountered a Christian that was in favor of removing Christian symbols from historically Christian buildings. I was commenting on Bluegrass' repeated assertions that genocide was a Jewish invention. Quit word twisting. Where did I assert that? The Old Testament is a codification of racial law and genocide, not the genesis of those Stone Age beliefs.
"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Paine wasn't a "Founding Father".
"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson
What a moronic statement.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Here are some good quotes from the founding fathers on this subject: John Adams: "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination." JOHN ADAMS In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote: "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." James Madison: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." James Madison, perhaps the greatest supporter for separation of church and State, and whom many refer to as the father of the Constitution, also held similar views which he expressed in his letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822: "And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." Ben Franklin: His Autobiography revels his skepticism, "My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist." In an essay on "Toleration," Franklin wrote: "If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England." Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him: "It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography) Thomas Paine: This freethinker and author of several books, influenced more early Americans than any other writer. Although he held Deist beliefs, he wrote in his famous The Age of Reason: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. " "Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. " Thomas Jefferson: ven most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." Some Religious activists try to extricate the concept of separation between church and State by claiming that those words do not occur in the Constitution. Indeed they do not, but neither does it exactly say "freedom of religion," yet the First Amendment implies both. As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom: "Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." George Washington: To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."
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You can cherry pick quotations from the Founding Fathers to allege they feared or loathed religion but the fact of the matter is that the Founding Fathers for the most part as well as the founding peoples of America were practising Christians and America today above all other Western nations has its majority of citizens self-identify as Christians. See the links included in my post #140. The first amendment of the Bill of Rights would not support the decision of Ms. Engimann and she is not even referring to it as a reason for her decision. Her decision is based on politically correct hooey at best or her own Christophobic sentiments at worst. Whatever case scenario has motivated this short sighted decision, the ending of the story may not have been written yet. W&M only receives 18% of its budget from taxpayer funding. W&M depends on alumni endowments to a very large degree. So we'll see how this small minded PC decision goes down with W&M's alumni benefactors. Sometimes misguided decisions have a way of righting themselves when $, or lack thereof, is involved. We'll see...
Didn't you claim to be a Greek Orthodox, or was that just for our benefit?
Same here, I find it quite odd.
Well of course, what do you expect from a bunch of American Christians who all live in trailers, have missing teeth and never made it past 8th grade? We are all married to our first cousins, and our children are all mentally retarded, and we don't have souls either, but you already know that. We also listen to banjo music in our free time and live on MacDonalds hamburgers. I suppose we should feel honored that you would connect with lowly creatures such as us.
What does that mean? I will enforce religion on the people? Did you not learn from the Pope's comment on what the Byzantine emperor had tos ay about religion and force?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
NOT!
Another point that you might want to keep in mind is that before 1800 only about 10% of the population of the US were members of Christian Congregations. I've seen this figure as low as 6.5% and as high as 15%, but the point is that only a very small percentage belonged to organized Christian Churches. At the time, organized religion had a bad name. The excessess of the inquisition and the witch trials were not that far away from these people. Many of the religious adherents in the colonies were kooks who had been kicked out of Europe for being intolerent trouble makers. They didn't sell with the general population. Among others, Robert, T. Handy documents this in his book "A History of the Churches in U.S. and Canada," New York: Oxford University Press, 1977. The American Revolution was driven by Enlightenment Thinkers. By and large these people were Diests (Jefferson) or Rational Theists (Franklin). They believed in the Masonic tradition of preserving the Enlightenment from over bearing kings, popes and wild eyed religious nuts. From what I have read of Jefferson (and some of which is bolded above) he did believe in a "wall" of separation between church and state least Christian Taliban types seek to establish a theocracy over rest. Also recall that true to Jefferson's fear, the Christian Taliban types tried to do exactly what Jefferson feared. For almost 80 years after the Bill of Rights was ratified the minority Christian contingent sought an amendment declaring the US a "Christian Nation". They were shot down time and time again by the founding fathers and finally gave up as the Civil War got underway.
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The Second Great Awakening - which saw a rise in the hostility towards Freemasons. Which is when the Freemasons went underground forming true secret societies like Skull&Bones (no coincidence it was founded during that Second Awakening) and created a dichotomy in America. Before the Second Great Awakening fervent Christians and those Americans that were deists lived side by side with each tolerating each other. Then the Second great Awakening changed that and drove the deists underground. That is why the upper crust seem to worship a different God than the great unwashed Americans and why there exists a hostility between the upper and lower crusts and maybe why there exists a mood in lower crust America that the upper crust conspires against them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Not, what? I never said I was Orthodox - I just defend them against what America does to them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I suggest you read through the historic archives of Library of Congress which clearly demonstrates the Christain connection to the early history of America. The page heading that Library of Congress associates with the founding of the American Republic is rather telling: "Religion and the founding of the American Republic"
Religion and the founding of the American Republic" The url keeps getting fragmented by Neil's program. Copy and paste the url and then remove the erroneous space that for whatever reason appears in the word "exhibits."
Interesting you divide America into upper-class Deists and the great unwashed, i.e., Christians. You forgetting the Sons of Satan, despised in every country that's stupid enough to allow them in, because of their lying, stealing, cowardice, and attempts to destroy both culture and the country itself.
"We become what we behold. We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." -- Marshall McLuhan, after Alexander Pope and William Blake.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibi ts/religion/rel04.html Why did you post this? It does absolutely nothing advance your argument or disprove anything that was said on the other side. It simply says that there were deeply religious men -- amonst others -- in the group the we call the founding fathers. No one disputes that. The article is fluff for Jr. High School kids writing term papers. If you disagree, post the relevant portion that proves your point. Use your cut and paste function. My point is that the actual founding fathers published a docment clearly stating that this was NOT a christian nation. It was ratified by Congress. I posted quotes from the primary founding fathers to show that this was no fluke and was in accordance with thier wishes.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestWicca practitioners are involved in real life, present day religious observance.
#123. To: Destro (#119)
W&M is a tax payer supported school - it receives BOTH state and federal funding. So?
#124. To: scrapper2 (#123)
(Edited)
Why not leave traditions, history alone when they harm no one except for a small group of politically correct (often bordering on Christophobia)who wish to dominate our nation with their narrow and selfish point of view?
#125. To: Destro (#101)
What does Israel have to do with this college removing a cross from a non denominational chapel?
#126. To: swarthyguy (#99)
You see antiwhite, I see an accurate rendition of facts.
#127. To: Destro (#122)
"Wicca is a modern recreation of a belief system from the past."
#128. To: Ferret Mike (#127)
It was recreated because the Goddess never died. It is people celebrating a religion and is a living breathing faith.
#129. To: Diana (#125)
What does Israel have to do with this college removing a cross from a non denominational chapel?
#130. To: Destro (#124)
This is what these Founding Fathers had to say on tradition and history:
#131. To: scrapper2 (#117)
Speak for yourself if this is not your business - maybe you do not pay taxes - but I do - so shove your condescending remarks up your unemployed welfare consuming a** ( if that's your current situation).
#132. To: ... (#131)
Remember that Wikipedia is not a souce.
#133. To: scrapper2 (#130)
Well you given me 2 out of context quotations.......
#134. To: scrapper2 (#132)
#135. To: Destro (#129)
Then why did you and Bluegrass harp on about Israel?
#136. To: scrapper2, Destro (#130)
Well you given me 2 out of context quotations and nothing from or about the man who laid down the principles of our Bill of Rights -
#137. To: Destro (#133)
Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.
#138. To: ... (#134)
Have another glass of Chardonnay and tell Ferret what a worthless idiot he is again.
#139. To: Destro (#133)
Less of an error religious fundamentalists in America make when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.
#140. To: Destro (#133)
Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.
#141. To: ... (#139)
#142. To: scrapper2 (#141)
#143. To: Destro (#142)
The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part:
#144. To: scrapper2 (#143)
The founding fathers were practising Christians.
#145. To: ... (#134)
"Have another glass of Chardonnay and tell Ferret what a worthless idiot he is again."
Keep that up Commander and you'll never get that four pip and make captain.
#146. To: Destro, scrapper2, Diana, HOUNDDAWG, christine, Ferret Mike (#100)
(Edited)
Even more reason to remove the cross since this "space is seen as a nondenominational area".
#147. To: Destro, scrapper2 (#144)
From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine
#148. To: bluegrass, scrapper2 (#147)
Thomas Paine wasn't a "Founding Father".
#149. To: Destro (#144)
#150. To: Destro, bluegrass (#148)
#151. To: Destro (#142)
#152. To: bluegrass (#146)
It's been a chapel since 1732. I've never encountered a Christian that was in favor of removing Christian symbols from historically Christian buildings.
#153. To: Destro, Bluegrass (#148)
What a moronic statement.
#154. To: Diana (#151)
Didn't you claim to be a Greek Orthodox, or was that just for our benefit?
#155. To: Destro (#154)
Greek Orthodox
#156. To: Destro (#154)
(Edited)
#157. To: ... (#156)
(Edited)
Also recall that true to Jefferson's fear, the Christian Taliban types tried to do exactly what Jefferson feared. For almost 80 years after the Bill of Rights was ratified the minority Christian contingent sought an amendment declaring the US a "Christian Nation". They were shot down time and time again by the founding fathers and finally gave up as the Civil War got underway.
#158. To: Diana (#155)
#159. To: Destro, bluegrass, ..., Diana (#157)
#160. To: All (#159)
Courtesy of Library of Congress archives:
#161. To: Destro (#157)
#162. To: scrapper2 (#159)
"Religion and the founding of the American Republic"
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