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Title: College removes cross – from chapel!
Source:
WND
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52646
Published: Oct 27, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-10-27 12:39:53 by bluegrass
Ping List: *New History*
Keywords: None
Views: 4253
Comments: 252
The cross from the altar area of the chapel at the College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., has been removed to ensure the space is seen as a nondenominational area, explains Melissa Engimann, assistant director for Historic Campus. "In order to make the Wren Chapel less of a faith-specific space, and to make it more welcoming to students, faculty, staff and visitors of all faiths, the cross has been removed from the altar area," Engimann announced in an e-mail to staff. The cross will be returned to the altar for those who wish to use it for events, services or private prayer. The cross was in place because of the college's former association with the Anglican Church. Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906, the room will still be considered a chapel, college officials said.
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#136. To: scrapper2, Destro (#130)
He's very good at that sort of thing. Now I have to go through this thread to see where I was harping on about Israel. Perhaps he is referring to my response when he said, "mind your own business" and said Israel does not mind it's own business. So that must mean I went on and on and on putting down Israel, in his mind anyway. I'm glad to see you running circles around him. He likes to distort and twist things though I know you see it too.
It is no accident that blue blooded WASP Freemason/Skull&Bones man like Bush called Jesus his favorite philosopher. Whether our nation's founding fathers were deists and church going Christians in name only is not the point. They believed in freedom to practice religion without interference from the government and they did not fear Christian symbols because the vast majority of early Americans were practising Christians and Christian symbolism has been embedded in every nook and corner of our nation's foundation - from our monies to our federal government building decor to our national anthem to our judicial system, heavens even our most powerful elected executive is sworn into office with a New Testament Bible. Our founding fathers did not fear history or tradition - many of them admired Greek and Roman philosophers and also period architecture whose styles were integrated into our lovely DC federal government buildings. Secularism is a post modern concept that a minority of followers have used to tyrannize our country, to rob our nation of commonly understood and respected history and traditions. It is people like the Michael Newhouse's and the Ms. Engimann's who are even more dangerous than the fundies because the fundies rarely get into a position to impose their will on our nation's rich heritage. Who cares what George Bush believes in? His religious beliefs are irrelevant. The historical underpinnings of this Christian nation are immortal. This is a Christian nation - always has and always will be. No mere mortal passing through time should have any right to "delete" history due to personal fear or prejudice against a Christian symbol in her midst. This administrator at W&M should be fired. She has no appreciation of history, of what far better people than her have contributed to this nation generally, to W&M specifically, in times past. She should not be allowed to work in a college with history like W&M. If she likes a so called secular modern national environment, let her immigrate to Israel. She most likely could apply for citizenship there.
Are you buckeroo on another ID? What it is your point or rather what is your problem? Did I tell Ferret he was a worthless idiot? I believe I did not. You however view Ferret as a worthless idiot. I notice there's a heck of a lot of self- projected insult to Ferret going on but that's a problem between him and you, don't drag me into it. You have not contributed 1 single salient good idea to this discussion thread about the W&M issue. Buzz off and read some books on google, go to the library and borrow some books, or go to a bookstore and stand around books, whatever it takes to fill our head with something other than the sense of inadequacy, inferiority you obviously feel since you are unable to discuss politics or even come up with a cyber moniker that is a derivative of an English word. I feel sorry for you but I'm not a psychiatrist.
The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part: "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797. Also recall that almost from the inception there was an active movement to pass a Constitutional Amendment declaring the US a Christian Nation. This effort repeatedly failed and the effort was eventually abandonned sometime around the Civil War.
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To support my contention that America always has been a Christian nation from its founding to the present: a. Historic foundation Courtesy of the Library of Congress historical archives: "Religion and the founding of the American Republic" http://www.loc.gov/exhibi ts/religion/rel04.html b. Christian religious identification continues today "American Religious Identification Survey" http ://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm * the proportion of the population that can be classified as Christian has declined from eighty-six in 1990 to seventy-seven percent in 2001; * although the number of adults who classify themselves in non-Christian religious groups has increased from about 5.8 million to about 7.7 million, the proportion of non-Christians has increased only by a very small amount - from 3.3 % to about 3.7 %; * the greatest increase in absolute as well as in percentage terms has been among those adults who do not subscribe to any religious identification; their number has more than doubled from 14.3 million in 1990 to 29.4 million in 2001; their proportion has grown from just eight percent of the total in 1990 to over fourteen percent in 2001 "Secularists" represent an insignificant minority in this nation - they better get used to seeing Christian symbolism in their midst because the trend for self- identification with Christianity will only become more pronounced after the 20- 40 MILLION illegal CATHOLIC Hispanics get legalized, which will happen post haste after the November elections. Within the next 25-50 years I predict we will have a CATHOLIC Hispanic President and there will be crosses here, there will be crosses there, there will be crosses everywhere, so the Missy Engimanns better invest in blinders for their "secular" ( wink, wink) eyes, if they want to stick around America.
Btw, nice informative post.
The type of Christians the Founding Fathers were in no way resembles how the fundamentalists in America make them out to be when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking. The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part: "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The USA is and was a Christian nation. The founding fathers were practising Christians. The first amendment of the constitution guarantees a citizens right to practice his/her religion without interference from government. This article has nothing to do with government interfering or imposing a religion. W&M was established as a private college and is the second oldest campus in the USA. W&M's chapel with its cross has been there since the college's founding. The cross remained in its chapel for 60 ( count them 6-0) long years after W&M was made a public college without causing problems for the students and professors. Suddenly in 2006 one non-Christian administrator has imposed her personal Christophobic beliefs on tradition and history. Her decision has ZERO to do with a federal or state order. No court order was issued to our best knowledge. She should be fired for imposing her will, her personal beliefs on a chapel that reflects Americana history and Christian tradition. P.S. I'm not a Protestant but I am an American who respects tradition and history. I do not respect tyrants. I do not respect Ms. Engimann's decision.
Which ones? "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY) "The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
It's been a chapel since 1732. I've never encountered a Christian that was in favor of removing Christian symbols from historically Christian buildings. I was commenting on Bluegrass' repeated assertions that genocide was a Jewish invention. Quit word twisting. Where did I assert that? The Old Testament is a codification of racial law and genocide, not the genesis of those Stone Age beliefs.
"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Paine wasn't a "Founding Father".
"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson
What a moronic statement.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Here are some good quotes from the founding fathers on this subject: John Adams: "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination." JOHN ADAMS In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote: "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." James Madison: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." James Madison, perhaps the greatest supporter for separation of church and State, and whom many refer to as the father of the Constitution, also held similar views which he expressed in his letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822: "And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." Ben Franklin: His Autobiography revels his skepticism, "My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist." In an essay on "Toleration," Franklin wrote: "If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England." Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him: "It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography) Thomas Paine: This freethinker and author of several books, influenced more early Americans than any other writer. Although he held Deist beliefs, he wrote in his famous The Age of Reason: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. " "Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. " Thomas Jefferson: ven most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." Some Religious activists try to extricate the concept of separation between church and State by claiming that those words do not occur in the Constitution. Indeed they do not, but neither does it exactly say "freedom of religion," yet the First Amendment implies both. As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom: "Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." George Washington: To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."
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You can cherry pick quotations from the Founding Fathers to allege they feared or loathed religion but the fact of the matter is that the Founding Fathers for the most part as well as the founding peoples of America were practising Christians and America today above all other Western nations has its majority of citizens self-identify as Christians. See the links included in my post #140. The first amendment of the Bill of Rights would not support the decision of Ms. Engimann and she is not even referring to it as a reason for her decision. Her decision is based on politically correct hooey at best or her own Christophobic sentiments at worst. Whatever case scenario has motivated this short sighted decision, the ending of the story may not have been written yet. W&M only receives 18% of its budget from taxpayer funding. W&M depends on alumni endowments to a very large degree. So we'll see how this small minded PC decision goes down with W&M's alumni benefactors. Sometimes misguided decisions have a way of righting themselves when $, or lack thereof, is involved. We'll see...
Didn't you claim to be a Greek Orthodox, or was that just for our benefit?
Same here, I find it quite odd.
Well of course, what do you expect from a bunch of American Christians who all live in trailers, have missing teeth and never made it past 8th grade? We are all married to our first cousins, and our children are all mentally retarded, and we don't have souls either, but you already know that. We also listen to banjo music in our free time and live on MacDonalds hamburgers. I suppose we should feel honored that you would connect with lowly creatures such as us.
What does that mean? I will enforce religion on the people? Did you not learn from the Pope's comment on what the Byzantine emperor had tos ay about religion and force?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
NOT!
Another point that you might want to keep in mind is that before 1800 only about 10% of the population of the US were members of Christian Congregations. I've seen this figure as low as 6.5% and as high as 15%, but the point is that only a very small percentage belonged to organized Christian Churches. At the time, organized religion had a bad name. The excessess of the inquisition and the witch trials were not that far away from these people. Many of the religious adherents in the colonies were kooks who had been kicked out of Europe for being intolerent trouble makers. They didn't sell with the general population. Among others, Robert, T. Handy documents this in his book "A History of the Churches in U.S. and Canada," New York: Oxford University Press, 1977. The American Revolution was driven by Enlightenment Thinkers. By and large these people were Diests (Jefferson) or Rational Theists (Franklin). They believed in the Masonic tradition of preserving the Enlightenment from over bearing kings, popes and wild eyed religious nuts. From what I have read of Jefferson (and some of which is bolded above) he did believe in a "wall" of separation between church and state least Christian Taliban types seek to establish a theocracy over rest. Also recall that true to Jefferson's fear, the Christian Taliban types tried to do exactly what Jefferson feared. For almost 80 years after the Bill of Rights was ratified the minority Christian contingent sought an amendment declaring the US a "Christian Nation". They were shot down time and time again by the founding fathers and finally gave up as the Civil War got underway.
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The Second Great Awakening - which saw a rise in the hostility towards Freemasons. Which is when the Freemasons went underground forming true secret societies like Skull&Bones (no coincidence it was founded during that Second Awakening) and created a dichotomy in America. Before the Second Great Awakening fervent Christians and those Americans that were deists lived side by side with each tolerating each other. Then the Second great Awakening changed that and drove the deists underground. That is why the upper crust seem to worship a different God than the great unwashed Americans and why there exists a hostility between the upper and lower crusts and maybe why there exists a mood in lower crust America that the upper crust conspires against them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Not, what? I never said I was Orthodox - I just defend them against what America does to them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I suggest you read through the historic archives of Library of Congress which clearly demonstrates the Christain connection to the early history of America. The page heading that Library of Congress associates with the founding of the American Republic is rather telling: "Religion and the founding of the American Republic"
Religion and the founding of the American Republic" The url keeps getting fragmented by Neil's program. Copy and paste the url and then remove the erroneous space that for whatever reason appears in the word "exhibits."
Interesting you divide America into upper-class Deists and the great unwashed, i.e., Christians. You forgetting the Sons of Satan, despised in every country that's stupid enough to allow them in, because of their lying, stealing, cowardice, and attempts to destroy both culture and the country itself.
"We become what we behold. We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." -- Marshall McLuhan, after Alexander Pope and William Blake.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibi ts/religion/rel04.html Why did you post this? It does absolutely nothing advance your argument or disprove anything that was said on the other side. It simply says that there were deeply religious men -- amonst others -- in the group the we call the founding fathers. No one disputes that. The article is fluff for Jr. High School kids writing term papers. If you disagree, post the relevant portion that proves your point. Use your cut and paste function. My point is that the actual founding fathers published a docment clearly stating that this was NOT a christian nation. It was ratified by Congress. I posted quotes from the primary founding fathers to show that this was no fluke and was in accordance with thier wishes.
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The pure Deism has all be died out. It is kind of a hard sell and it seems to promise very little to the adherent. At least from what I've read and seen. For example, Jefferson did not believe that prayers were answered or that God was necessarily involved with him personally. He believed that God had a plan for the world and that the plan was no doubt unfolding as it should. Essentially, God was busy and an indvidual person wasn't that unimportant. The rationalists were even having trouble with free will as Newton gave them a clockwork universe where all outcomes were pre-determined. Postulating a soul was one way out of this logical bind. It makes me wonder how religious these types would have been had they known of the uncertainty principle. The Rational Theists believed that God listened to them, and was no doubt involved in their personal lives, but that the divine itself was probably unknowable. One became acquainted with portions of God through a life of simple morality. I think the Quakers, and later Unity and some Methodist denominations still practice versions of this - as well as the newer earth based religions that seem to be popping up. I think both of these philosophies are a bit too abstract for the average person. They are something that people like Jefferson or Descartes arrived at after a long analysis. It's not very comforting to a person being driven into the church doors because his job went overseas.
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Is there a puke icon around here?
Destro please, things are not so black and white as they appear to you. You only seem to see two extreme ends without recognising the many shades of grey inbetween.
Actually this sounds somewhat like Russian history starting in late 1800s. Substitute the word Russian for Amerian. I'm afraid history is about to repeat itself.
Considering the sick bastard infesting the White House now believes his God speaks to him directly, you have to admire a President like Jefferson who was so lacking in hubris he felt the creator felt he was too unimportant to bother with personally.
Sounds almost biblical.
Not really - just trying to use descriptive language of how I think the situation is viewd by our elites. See the movie 'Caddyshack'. The ruling elite of this nation - especially the leading lights of the Revolution where not Christians - call them deists if you will - I would call them post-Christians - which is why it confuses uneducated Americans because they seem Christian on the outside but they are devoid of religious Christianity. by the early 1800s, the Second Great Awakening challenged this group of what we would now call secularists - even if they were not secularists in the modern sense. The Second Great Awakening freaked out the 'deists' who were always a minority - but they were an open and powerful minority. So they went underground. This is what Americans don't understand about America. That America is a two tiered nation and the origins of this is that time in America. Freemasons/Deists went underground - but when the smoke cleared the freemasons that reformed were not the same freemasons of old. They were split in two. The open freemasons just became a gentleman's club while the elite founded secret societies like Skull&Bones. Over time this 'upper crust' no longer saw the uninitiated as fellow Americans - just dangerous rabble to be controlled. This has created over the centuries a disconnect between the rulers and the ruled. This is the origin of the almost gut feeling that people have that there are conspiracies directed against them from the top. PS: Did you know that the Marine Corps was founded in the first Freemasonic temple in the states? By Freemasons? officered by Freemasons? and developed a training based on Freemasonic principals? If there was ever a Freemasonic armed force it is the USMC.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The level of discourse among Americans is shocking. Where did I say it was black and white? America is all grey. If you can't understand where I am coming from I am sorry.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Who are you to criticize my Library of Congress link to archival US history material that has copies of original documents with commentary text that covers multi decades of history of what is known as America, when you and your compadre, Destro, have posted selective quotations out of context and links to a website of a tired old man called Loeflin who has a hard on about fundie Christians (like who doesn't, duh?) Get off your high horse. And fyi the reason I did not cut and paste "relevent portions" is because the whole damn url deals with material that proves that the Founding Fathers were for the most part PRACTISING CHRISTIANS ( cover your eyes!) and that the founding settlers of this great nation were by and large PRACTISING CHRISTIANS! Hello. Everything at the site is pertinent to that point. The Library of Congress is replete with history that supports that common sense observation about the nation called America. The fact that you and Destro say well, the founding fathers voted against naming America a Christian nation and a couple of Founding Fathers might be cynical church goers means what exactly? The 2 of you are high 5-ing about what revelation that only the 2 of you apparently are seeing. Spit it out. Tell us posters who have post graduate degrees. What do you 2 bright lights see that others of us possibly with far better academic credentials do not? The founding fathers did not want to establish a national religion. They wanted Americans to be able to practice their religion free from gov't interference. That is obvious except to someone living under a rock. But you and Destro are trying to jump from that widely known historical fact to promote an false idea about America - that it was not founded by Christians nor is it a Christian nation today. That theory has no support whatsoever. Have you heard of the Pilgrims? Have you looked at US currency? Have you ever watched the inaugural ceremony of the most important executive officer in the land? Have you ever visited the Supreme Court bldg - the highest court in the nation? There are Christian symbols in all aspects of American political and judicial and everyday life - do you think that comes by random chance? "The facts on the ground" speak to America as being founded by Christians as it is peopled by a majority of Christians today. If you don't like living in a Christian nation, sorry, move to Israel or to India or to Saudi Arabia. Perhaps some of those countries will offer you a non-Christian religious ambience which you may care for better. The US gov't has never established Christianity as the official religion but the majority of people who live in this country are Christians. Try as you may to fool yourself that history and facts on the ground today are different, you are wrong. You are in the midst of a Christian nation. Its founders were Christians. Its first settlers were Christians - they were known not as Buddhists, not as Muslims, not as Jews. The first Americans after the Revolution were still primarily CHRISTIANS, just as the first settlers under British rule were known as Christians. Regardless of the serenade that you and Destro sing to one another, this article - you know what we are supposed to be addressing - has zero to do with the First Amendment or the religion of the Founding Fathers or the early American settlers. Ms. Engimann does not refer to either subject that you and Destro run off at the mouth about. Ms. Engimann is making the decision to remove the cross from the chapel because of either a) PC hooey or b) because she is Christophobic and wants to take advantage of her position to impose her will and beliefs on W&M. . Stick to the material at hand. Thank you very much. And btw, just because you are still sore that I shot you down on another thread where you were trying to drum up votes for the Dimwit Party as being oh so different than the Repukes, you don't need to carry a grudge for days on end. Get over it.
Red Herring. As you know, and as anyone can see from reading above, I didn't criticize the Library of Congress page you posted, I simply said it wasn't on point. And it wasn't or you could have posted the relevant portions here as I asked. I said before, the article was general fluff put up to help kids do term papers. And that's precisely what it is. As I also said above, the article basically says that some of the founding fathers were very religious. Nobody disputes this and it has no real bearing on the current discussion. Over the years I've learned how to counter your tactic of very specific claim allegedly backed up with overly general reference. Becky Saunders on LP used to make very specific claims regarding the Iraq war tactics and then post a reference to the home page of Janes Military Hardware to back them up. Similarly, you claimed that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation - and not as a secular nation - and you then cite the entire Library of congress for support. In addition, you post a link to an article that is pure fluff and which discusses a collateral point, i.e., that some of the founding fathers were religious. I counter this tactic by asking you to cut and paste the particular sentence or paragraph in the article that backs up your claim. Reading the artcile at the link you posted, I don't think you can do this.
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Dear Ms. Clueless, I don't need to cut and paste - the whole text and original documents at the Library of Congress url speaks to the fact that the USA was founded by Christians, both settlers and framers of the Constitution. The material also addresses the fact that Christianity was not legislated to be the official national religion - a point that you and Destro appear to believe is known only to the two of you. No one is arguing with you on that point. The LC site that I provide makes this clear. What all other posters including myself are at odds with you and Destro is over your flight of fancy about America not being a Christian nation. That supposition is not born out in fact. Just because Christianity is not legislated to be an official government approved religion does not prove that America is not a Christian nation. America was founded by Christian settlers. America's framers were by and large Christians and church going ones at that regardless of what Destro and old Mr. Loeflin, the owner of the site he refers to, may think. I don't have a clue who "Becky at LP" is. I don't "know" her. I don't post at LP. If she played games with you, I'm sorry for that. I am not Becky. If you truly believe that America has no Christian foundation, that today's Americans are in the main a group of non-religious amorphous blobs with no religious identities, good luck to you in surviving the truth when it strikes - Presidential inaugural day when the highest officer in this country puts one hand on the N.T. Bible, when you glance at some currency, when the national anthem is sung... I'm done with you. Your naivity is too much to bear. I suspect you are quite young. That's probably why you think America is what you make it to be,history and facts on the ground not withstanding. See you. I'm not laying any bread crumbs around, so don't bother following me. I think you have found an intellectual equal and mentor in Destro. God speed.
No it doesn't and this is why you can't give us the cite. And you know this. That is why you are hiding in these genearalities and very, very, very childish personal insults and attacks. I read the article. It says that some of the founding fathers were religious. No more, no less. As such, it provides no support for what you say. In fact, it provides no support for anything. It is generalized fluff put up for students and casual visitors to the site - not a essay intended to make a point. But you know that and that is why you are again running your nasty mouth as a distraction. Why don't you try to go one hour without losing it, going completely emotional and tossing out a hate filled insult to someone. Is there one person on this site you have not insulted this way? If so, I would be curious to hear the name.
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America was a place of refuge for many persecuted Christians. The German Palatinates (Lutherans) escaping the 30 Years' War, and the Puritans and Quakers before that. There distinct Protestant denominations in America long before the Revolution. In NY were the Dutch Reformists, in the midwest the Methodists and Weslayans, the Presbyterians (from Ulster and Scotland), in PA, west and south. America invented the Baptists (in 1787 on 2 sides of my family tree, in KY and VA). Then a little later the starving Irish Catholics. Then some more Germans, this time Catholics. Then there were those crazy French Canadians (Catholics) who sailed down the Mississippi (the Cajuns). The Scandinavians were Lutheran. The Italians Catholic. Around WWI the Armenians escaping the Turks, some made it CA, who were Greek Orthodox. So many people from so many countries from the Pilgrims onward were all Christians. Up until a few decades ago, all the stores were closed on Sunday. People were not even inclined to travel on Sunday. Everyone went to church. These were real Christians, who studied and worshipped and prayed together. Not the lazy, backsliding apologists we've become today. I cannot think of one good reason to rewrite American history as being anything other than predominately Christian, but I can think of a few bad reasons.
Actually that is not my point. The religious mindset of the Americans at the time of the Revolution was not the same religious mindset of Americans today. The Christians of that time were not as the Christians of today and the secularists of that time were not as the secularists of today are. Today, a so called right wing Christian would not even shake the hand of someone in public life who declares like Thomas Jefferson did that Jesus was not the son of God, just a good man. In that time it seems most religious folk, while I am sure uncomfortable with the positions of the deists did not care what one of them like Thomas Jefferson had to say because it was his private business. America was founded by people of faith - but it was not faith specific - very much in keeping with the Freemasonic concept that anyone could be a lodge brother as long as they had a faith in some sort of deity or religion - though the Founding Fathers went beyond their Freemasonic roots to even accept atheists. So when you claim the Founding Fathers were Christians, it is like a Protestant claiming a Catholic Saint or an Orthodox Church father as his own. While the Protestant is a Christian, he bares little resemblance to the Christians of the early church. So to, American religionists on the right and the left and American secularists bare little resemblance to the first generation Americans. Would the Congress of today pass a peace treaty with Muslims saying that the USA is not a Christian nation like was done in the example posted above?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestWell you given me 2 out of context quotations and nothing from or about the man who laid down the principles of our Bill of Rights -
#137. To: Destro (#133)
Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.
#138. To: ... (#134)
Have another glass of Chardonnay and tell Ferret what a worthless idiot he is again.
#139. To: Destro (#133)
Less of an error religious fundamentalists in America make when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.
#140. To: Destro (#133)
Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.
#141. To: ... (#139)
#142. To: scrapper2 (#141)
#143. To: Destro (#142)
The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part:
#144. To: scrapper2 (#143)
The founding fathers were practising Christians.
#145. To: ... (#134)
"Have another glass of Chardonnay and tell Ferret what a worthless idiot he is again."
Keep that up Commander and you'll never get that four pip and make captain.
#146. To: Destro, scrapper2, Diana, HOUNDDAWG, christine, Ferret Mike (#100)
(Edited)
Even more reason to remove the cross since this "space is seen as a nondenominational area".
#147. To: Destro, scrapper2 (#144)
From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine
#148. To: bluegrass, scrapper2 (#147)
Thomas Paine wasn't a "Founding Father".
#149. To: Destro (#144)
#150. To: Destro, bluegrass (#148)
#151. To: Destro (#142)
#152. To: bluegrass (#146)
It's been a chapel since 1732. I've never encountered a Christian that was in favor of removing Christian symbols from historically Christian buildings.
#153. To: Destro, Bluegrass (#148)
What a moronic statement.
#154. To: Diana (#151)
Didn't you claim to be a Greek Orthodox, or was that just for our benefit?
#155. To: Destro (#154)
Greek Orthodox
#156. To: Destro (#154)
(Edited)
#157. To: ... (#156)
(Edited)
Also recall that true to Jefferson's fear, the Christian Taliban types tried to do exactly what Jefferson feared. For almost 80 years after the Bill of Rights was ratified the minority Christian contingent sought an amendment declaring the US a "Christian Nation". They were shot down time and time again by the founding fathers and finally gave up as the Civil War got underway.
#158. To: Diana (#155)
#159. To: Destro, bluegrass, ..., Diana (#157)
#160. To: All (#159)
Courtesy of Library of Congress archives:
#161. To: Destro (#157)
#162. To: scrapper2 (#159)
"Religion and the founding of the American Republic"
#163. To: YertleTurtle (#161)
Interesting you divide America into upper-class Deists and the great unwashed, i.e., Christians.
#164. To: Destro, All (#157)
That is why the upper crust seem to worship a different God than the great unwashed Americans and why there exists a hostility between the upper and lower crusts and maybe why there exists a mood in lower crust America that the upper crust conspires against them.
#165. To: Destro (#157)
#166. To: Destro, Scrapper2, bluegrass, robin, All (#157)
Then the Second great Awakening changed that and drove the deists underground. That is why the upper crust seem to worship a different God than the great unwashed Americans and why there exists a hostility between the upper and lower crusts and maybe why there exists a mood in lower crust America that the upper crust conspires against them.
#167. To: ... (#163)
"For example, Jefferson did not believe that prayers were answered or that God was necessarily involved with him personally"
#168. To: Ferret Mike (#106)
Mmmmmmm. Three-screams rat. -- Homer Liddy
#169. To: YertleTurtle (#161)
(Edited)
Interesting you divide America into upper-class Deists and the great unwashed, i.e., Christians.
#170. To: Diana (#165)
Destro please, things are not so black and white as they appear to you.
#171. To: ..., destro, All (#162)
Why did you post this? It does absolutely nothing advance your argument or disprove anything that was said on the other side. It simply says that there were deeply religious men -- amonst others -- in the group the we call the founding fathers. No one disputes that. The article is fluff for Jr. High School kids writing term papers. If you disagree, post the relevant portion that proves your point. Use your cut and paste function.
#172. To: scrapper2 (#171)
Who are you to criticize my Library of Congress link to archival US history material that has copies of original documents with commentary text that covers multi decades of history of what is known as America,
#173. To: ... (#172)
I counter this tactic by asking you to cut and paste the particular sentence or paragraph in the article that backs up your claim. Reading the artcile at the link you posted, I don't think you can do this.
#174. To: scrapper2 (#173)
I don't need to cut and paste - the whole text and original documents at the Library of Congress url speaks to the fact that the USA was founded by Christians, both settlers and framers of the Constitution.
#175. To: scrapper2, ... (#173)
(Edited)
#176. To: scrapper2, ... (#173)
America was founded by Christian settlers. America's framers were by and large Christians and church going ones at that regardless of what Destro and old Mr. Loeflin, the owner of the site he refers to, may think.
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