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Religion
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Title: College removes cross – from chapel!
Source: WND
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52646
Published: Oct 27, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-10-27 12:39:53 by bluegrass
Ping List: *New History*
Keywords: None
Views: 4343
Comments: 252

The cross from the altar area of the chapel at the College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., has been removed to ensure the space is seen as a nondenominational area, explains Melissa Engimann, assistant director for Historic Campus.

"In order to make the Wren Chapel less of a faith-specific space, and to make it more welcoming to students, faculty, staff and visitors of all faiths, the cross has been removed from the altar area," Engimann announced in an e-mail to staff.

The cross will be returned to the altar for those who wish to use it for events, services or private prayer.

The cross was in place because of the college's former association with the Anglican Church. Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906, the room will still be considered a chapel, college officials said.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 160.

#1. To: bluegrass (#0)

This is kind of a private matter - it's not like this came from a court order, etc.

So it really is non of our business.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   12:50:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The chapel is part of the Wren Building, the oldest academic building in America. It's had a cross in it since the chapel was added in 1732.

This is akin to what the Bolsheviks did to Russian religious history during their tyranny.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   13:05:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The chapel is part of the Wren Building, the oldest academic building in America. It's had a cross in it since the chapel was added in 1732.

It's a private matter - none of my business or yours.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   14:16:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

It's a private matter - none of my business or yours.

I live in Virginia. W&M is a "public" school.

It's my biz.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   14:20:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I live in Virginia. W&M is a "public" school.

Then the cross should be removed since the state should not fund a religous specific chapel.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   14:22:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

By that reasoning, the publicly funded 'Holocaust' Museum in DC should have all of the six-pointed stars removed.

The larger issue is that the State has no business supporting universities.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   14:25:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

By that reasoning, the publicly funded 'Holocaust' Museum in DC should have all of the six-pointed stars removed.

A) I am against the existence of the Holocaust musuem in America - if it should exist anywhere it should be in Berlin/Europe.

With that said:

B) The Star of David was used as a identifying symbol by the Nazis so you could not have it removed from a museum that touches on the subject.

C) Was not the schismatic and heretical Anglican church founded by an overweight serial killer?

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   14:28:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The German Nazis used the genocide and 'ethnic cleansing' of Native Americans as one of the models to plan and execute their genocide and ethnic cleansing of those they found odious.

I would keep the museum and make the Shoah exhibit a wing. It needs exhibits showing what happened to 'New World' peoples, and to peoples in all the other corners of the world when their particular 'holocausts' happened.

The lesson that the museum teaches is an important one, it just need to be reorganized and changed to show that this is a sort of thing that has happened in different degrees at different times in human history.

To make it just cover the Shoah, it sends the false message that what the Nazis did was highly unusual, when in fact, it isn't. The museum is needed because this sort of thing will happen again if we don't use all the tools at our disposal to remember history to keep from repeating it.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-27   14:39:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The German Nazis used the genocide and 'ethnic cleansing' of Native Americans as one of the models to plan and execute their genocide and ethnic cleansing of those they found odious.

I don't know if any Nazi ever said that but they did openly modeled their laws on the Jews on the American South's Jim Crow laws.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   15:01:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

In Nazi Germany, Jews were prohibited by law from marrying non-Jews. There's only one country in the world that still has this law: Israel.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   15:15:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

In Nazi Germany, Jews were prohibited by law from marrying non-Jews. There's only one country in the world that still has this law: Israel.

The Jim Crow laws of the South - including laws against race mixing - were defended by referring to the Old Testament as recently as the 1960s.

The Nazi legal system was based on the American Jim Crow laws.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   15:40:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The Nazi legal system was based on the American Jim Crow laws.

As you yourself stated that the Jim Crow laws were also based on the OT, it's only logical that the Nazi laws were based on the same older source. It's a pretzel twisting of logic otherwise.

Streicher himself says that the Nazi race laws were based on the Mosaic laws.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   15:52:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Which is why our Founding Fathers made this a secular nation.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   15:54:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

That's beside the point.

The Nazi race laws were based on Mosaic laws. The followers of that Mosaic law are now ensconced in the power structure of this so-called "secular nation".

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   16:04:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

That's beside the point.

That's exactly the point of this article - secular republic - see conversation above before you introduced the 'Star of David' into the duscussion.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   16:10:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

That's exactly the point of this article - secular republic

I think the article deals with how political correctness overtakes what should be common sense. This college has a historic association with Christianity, ergo the cross in its chapel. The US gov't did not ram a cross into this chapel and promote Christianity as the nation's favorite religion. This cross was in this chapel for how many decades with how many hundreds of students of various denominations coming into the chapel to pray to their own individual Lord, without feeling they were being brow beaten into converting to Protestantism. And now some idiot PC ( or maybe aetheist) desk jockey at W&M is using the excuse of "well this is a tax supported school now" and "well the chapel should be non-denominational because it's all the room we've got for prayer and someone (?) might get offended if we don't make this change"...puhleaze this is so transparent. How can you argue that this obvious PC ploy relates to separation of state and religion...you are better than pushing this type of limp wristed milque toast rationale, destro...

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-27   16:36:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I think the article deals with how political correctness overtakes what should be common sense.

It's not an example of political correctness - the chapel is being designated for non denominational use - like thousands of such chapels in school and hospitals all over America including the military.

Such chapels have no outward signs of religous denomination and symbols are brought ina nd out depending on the services given.

This school long ago gave up its denominational links. W&M is not the property of you or the people - they can do whatever they like.

This is like me getting upset some Protestnat denominations ordain women while at the same time I am not a Protestant. None of my business.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   16:57:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

W&M is not the property of you or the people - they can do whatever they like.

This is like me getting upset some Protestnat denominations ordain women while at the same time I am not a Protestant. None of my business.

This is a taxpayer supported college. W&M is not private; it used to be private but not any longer. It is "our" property.

And why are you jumping all over the map with your arguments to support W&M's decision? At first you said that there should be separation between gov't and religion. Now you're claiming this is a private matter even though it says quite clearly in the article that W&M receives taxpayer (gov't) support.

"Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906..."

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-27   17:15:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

This is a taxpayer supported college. W&M is not private; it used to be private but not any longer. It is "our" property.

Even more reason to remove the cross since this "space is seen as a nondenominational area".

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28   15:30:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

destro: W&M is not the property of you or the people - they can do whatever they like. This is like me getting upset some Protestnat denominations ordain women while at the same time I am not a Protestant. None of my business.

scrapper: This is a taxpayer supported college. W&M is not private; it used to be private but not any longer. It is "our" property.

And why are you jumping all over the map with your arguments to support W&M's decision? At first you said that there should be separation between gov't and religion. Now you're claiming this is a private matter even though it says quite clearly in the article that W&M receives taxpayer (gov't) support.

"Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906..."

destro: Even more reason to remove the cross since this "space is seen as a nondenominational area".

Oh stop it, your flip flops in the positions you have taken in the course of arguing the merits of W&M's decision fool no one and the ensuing spin only give me a headache like watching the theatrics of a Linda Blair understudy for the Exorcist role.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-28   16:18:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

At first you said that there should be separation between gov't and religion. Now you're claiming this is a private matter even though it says quite clearly in the article that W&M receives taxpayer (gov't) support.

What is the contradiction there? W&M is not my property nor yours - mind your business.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28   17:08:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

What is the contradiction there? W&M is not my property nor yours - mind your business.

W&M is a tax payer supported school - it receives BOTH state and federal funding. I am a taxpayer and therefore and thusly I have every right to consider critically the decisions of the politically correct minions sitting behind desks who are minding my investments in education, as it were.

Speak for yourself if this is not your business - maybe you do not pay taxes - but I do - so shove your condescending remarks up your unemployed welfare consuming a** ( if that's your current situation).

I stand my the comments which I made in my initial #41 post to you( which I re- list below), and your subsequent contradictory arguments that have hopped all over the map have not pursuaded me otherwise.

destro: That's exactly the point of this article - secular republic

scrapper: I think the article deals with how political correctness overtakes what should be common sense. This college has a historic association with Christianity, ergo the cross in its chapel. The US gov't did not ram a cross into this chapel and promote Christianity as the nation's favorite religion. This cross was in this chapel for how many decades with how many hundreds of students of various denominations coming into the chapel to pray to their own individual Lord, without feeling they were being brow beaten into converting to Protestantism. And now some idiot PC ( or maybe aetheist) desk jockey at W&M is using the excuse of "well this is a tax supported school now" and "well the chapel should be non-denominational because it's all the room we've got for prayer and someone (?) might get offended if we don't make this change"...puhleaze this is so transparent. How can you argue that this obvious PC ploy relates to separation of state and religion...you are better than pushing this type of limp wristed milque toast rationale, destro...

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-28   17:31:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

W&M is a tax payer supported school - it receives BOTH state and federal funding.

So?

Want to return teh school to the Anglican church? Then America should not have fought the American revolution.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28   17:36:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

W&M is a tax payer supported school - it receives BOTH state and federal funding. So?

Want to return teh school to the Anglican church? Then America should not have fought the American revolution.

No we fought the revolution to have our own nation, not to be dominated by others, to be captains of our destiny.

In the course of building a nation we have accumulated traditions and a good deal of history.

Why not leave traditions, history alone when they harm no one except for a small group of politically correct (often bordering on Christophobia)who wish to dominate our nation with their narrow and selfish point of view?

For how many decades have students of various denominations used this chapel to pray to their own faith's Lord and only now a Ms. Melissa Engifinkelstein oops Engimann, assistant director for the historic Campus, wants to remove the cross?

I'm sorry but our forefathers did not fight the revolution to take on the yoke of political correctness and self-serving views as promoted by the likes of Ms. Engimann. The fedgov't did not thrust a cross into the chapel of W&M out of the blue to promote a federally sanctioned religion. This cross has historical import to the school and no contemporary fast fade mortal has the right to dissolve history and tradition with a stroke of a pen to a memo. This self- important administrator should be over ruled forthwith by the university's board of governors. Let Ms. Engimann find a job elsewhere maybe flipping burgers at a non-denominational food outlet - she does not appreciate tradition or history and should be allowed near repositories of those values.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-28   18:17:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Why not leave traditions, history alone when they harm no one except for a small group of politically correct (often bordering on Christophobia)who wish to dominate our nation with their narrow and selfish point of view?

This is what these Founding Fathers had to say on tradition and history:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" -- Thomas Jefferson

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28   18:26:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

This is what these Founding Fathers had to say on tradition and history:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" -- Thomas Jefferson

Oh really? What a clever response.

Well you given me 2 out of context quotations and nothing from or about the man who laid down the principles of our Bill of Rights - George Mason - and whom George Washington (Mason's neighbor) and Thomas Jefferson greatly admired.

Fyi, George Mason was a heavy duty man of faith and along with his neighbor, George Washington, served on the [church] building committee of Truro Parish, which consisted of three churches.

There have been books published with George Washington's Prayers and his addresses to the churches. James Madison declared January 12, 1815 " A Day of Public Humiliation and Fasting"..."The two houses of the National Legislature having, by a joint resolution expressed their desire that, in the present time of public calamity and war, a day may be recommended to be observed by the people of the United States as a day of public humiliation and fasting, and of prayer to Almighty god for the safety and welfare of these States, his blessing on their arms and a speedy restoration of peace..."

So all in all I have every reason to believe that George Mason, George Washington, and James Madison would be appalled to see Ms. Engimann's somewhat small minded Christophic behavior. W&M became a public college in 1906, so for 60 long years students and administrators came and went without being offended by the cross in the college chapel and only now, 60 years later, an anti-Christian bureaucrat decides to tear assunder history and tradition "for the common good." Pardon me but I smell something rather odiferous and selfish in Ms. Engifinkelstein ooops Ms. Engimann's action.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-28   19:22:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Well you given me 2 out of context quotations.......

Less of an error religious fundamentalists in America make when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.

It is no accident that blue blooded WASP Freemason/Skull&Bones man like Bush called Jesus his favorite philosopher.

To a student of the esoteric - such a statement was telling even if it went over people's heads.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-28   20:14:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Less of an error religious fundamentalists in America make when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.

The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

Also recall that almost from the inception there was an active movement to pass a Constitutional Amendment declaring the US a Christian Nation. This effort repeatedly failed and the effort was eventually abandonned sometime around the Civil War.

...  posted on  2006-10-28   22:04:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Btw, nice informative post.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-28   23:02:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The type of Christians the Founding Fathers were in no way resembles how the fundamentalists in America make them out to be when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking. The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Destro  posted on  2006-10-29   0:50:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Didn't you claim to be a Greek Orthodox, or was that just for our benefit?

Diana  posted on  2006-10-29   18:14:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Didn't you claim to be a Greek Orthodox, or was that just for our benefit?

What does that mean? I will enforce religion on the people? Did you not learn from the Pope's comment on what the Byzantine emperor had tos ay about religion and force?

Destro  posted on  2006-10-29   18:23:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Another point that you might want to keep in mind is that before 1800 only about 10% of the population of the US were members of Christian Congregations. I've seen this figure as low as 6.5% and as high as 15%, but the point is that only a very small percentage belonged to organized Christian Churches.

At the time, organized religion had a bad name. The excessess of the inquisition and the witch trials were not that far away from these people. Many of the religious adherents in the colonies were kooks who had been kicked out of Europe for being intolerent trouble makers. They didn't sell with the general population.

Among others, Robert, T. Handy documents this in his book "A History of the Churches in U.S. and Canada," New York: Oxford University Press, 1977.

The American Revolution was driven by Enlightenment Thinkers. By and large these people were Diests (Jefferson) or Rational Theists (Franklin). They believed in the Masonic tradition of preserving the Enlightenment from over bearing kings, popes and wild eyed religious nuts. From what I have read of Jefferson (and some of which is bolded above) he did believe in a "wall" of separation between church and state least Christian Taliban types seek to establish a theocracy over rest.

Also recall that true to Jefferson's fear, the Christian Taliban types tried to do exactly what Jefferson feared. For almost 80 years after the Bill of Rights was ratified the minority Christian contingent sought an amendment declaring the US a "Christian Nation". They were shot down time and time again by the founding fathers and finally gave up as the Civil War got underway.

...  posted on  2006-10-29   18:54:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Also recall that true to Jefferson's fear, the Christian Taliban types tried to do exactly what Jefferson feared. For almost 80 years after the Bill of Rights was ratified the minority Christian contingent sought an amendment declaring the US a "Christian Nation". They were shot down time and time again by the founding fathers and finally gave up as the Civil War got underway.

The Second Great Awakening - which saw a rise in the hostility towards Freemasons.

Which is when the Freemasons went underground forming true secret societies like Skull&Bones (no coincidence it was founded during that Second Awakening) and created a dichotomy in America.

Before the Second Great Awakening fervent Christians and those Americans that were deists lived side by side with each tolerating each other. Then the Second great Awakening changed that and drove the deists underground. That is why the upper crust seem to worship a different God than the great unwashed Americans and why there exists a hostility between the upper and lower crusts and maybe why there exists a mood in lower crust America that the upper crust conspires against them.

Destro  posted on  2006-10-29   19:16:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I suggest you read through the historic archives of Library of Congress which clearly demonstrates the Christain connection to the early history of America.

The page heading that Library of Congress associates with the founding of the American Republic is rather telling:

"Religion and the founding of the American Republic"

http://www.loc.gov/exhibi ts/religion/rel04.html

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-29   19:25:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Courtesy of Library of Congress archives:

Religion and the founding of the American Republic"

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

The url keeps getting fragmented by Neil's program.

Copy and paste the url and then remove the erroneous space that for whatever reason appears in the word "exhibits."

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-29   19:28:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

        There are no replies to Comment # 160.

End Trace Mode for Comment # 160.

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