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Religion
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Title: College removes cross – from chapel!
Source: WND
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52646
Published: Oct 27, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-10-27 12:39:53 by bluegrass
Ping List: *New History*
Keywords: None
Views: 4422
Comments: 252

The cross from the altar area of the chapel at the College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., has been removed to ensure the space is seen as a nondenominational area, explains Melissa Engimann, assistant director for Historic Campus.

"In order to make the Wren Chapel less of a faith-specific space, and to make it more welcoming to students, faculty, staff and visitors of all faiths, the cross has been removed from the altar area," Engimann announced in an e-mail to staff.

The cross will be returned to the altar for those who wish to use it for events, services or private prayer.

The cross was in place because of the college's former association with the Anglican Church. Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906, the room will still be considered a chapel, college officials said.

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The Magna Carta is not mentioned in the Constitution either, but its influence is obvious. So is the influence of Christian men as the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country. -- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the "Magna-Charta" here refers to the proposed United States Constitution

"Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice." -- Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572. (Asa Green "was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was chaplain to congress during Washington's administration." -- Farrell Till in "The Christian Nation Myth.")

"[Washington was] a total stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of another." -- John Bell, in 1779, in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 118, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

"I know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did." -- Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, February, 1800, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572 ("Gouverneur Morris was the principal drafter of the Constitution of the United States; he was a member of the Continental Congress, a United States senator from New York, and minister to France. He accepted, to a considerable extent, the skeptical views of French Freethinkers." -- John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans.)

"I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them." -- Eleanor "Nellie" Parke Custis Lewis, Martha Washington's granddaughter from a previous marriage, quoted from Sparks' Washingon, also from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 22

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   9:51:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"[Washington was] a total stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of another." -

That's the bottom line in all of these quotes. It is about equality and tolerance of beliefs that was so important. This is what Christianity allows.

Just go to Israel if you want to see how another Democracy that has no Christianity is devoid of equality and tolerance.

For example:

A Jew cannot marry a non-Jew in Israel.
A Christian cannot become a citizen of Israel.

At the time of Washington, there were many religious prejudices among the individual and distinct Christian denominations (as directly referenced in the quote above).

Washington was trying to avoid all that mess, and he did.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   10:00:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The Magna Carta was 1215,

America uses English Common law which predates Christianity - the Magna Carta is not part of the common law. The magna carta was a deal between nobles and the king on what powers he could have over them - it is not a religous inspired document of law.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   10:04:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

But English Common Law now includes the influence of the Magna Carta and Christianity.

As I pointed out the common laws of the time Jefferson refers to were so inferior, they did not protect the average serf at all. That's why the Magna Carta was so important. And not until 1215, after Christianity had had plenty of time to influence everything.

from Wikipedia about Statute Law, also used by the United States.

A statute is a formal, written law of a country or state, written and enacted by its legislative authority, perhaps to then be ratified by the highest executive in the government, and finally published. Typically, statutes command, prohibit, or declare policy. Statutes are sometimes referred to as legislation or "black letter law."

In many countries, published statutes are organized in topical arrangements called codes, such as the Civil Code of Quebec or the United States Code.

Washington pointedly avoided the inter-denominational infighting among the various Christian groups, as the quotes you posted are evidence.

And why don't you tell me what makes Israel so racist and intolerant if it is a Democracy with a rule of law?

You have stated that afterall you are not a Greek Orthodox, although you certainly led many of us to believe that.

So what do you believe?

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   10:21:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You have stated that afterall you are not a Greek Orthodox, although you certainly led many of us to believe that.

Do I have to be a worshiper to defend what was done to the Orthodox peoples in by the USA?

I don't understand why also you assume that if I am an Orthodox believer that means I would lie about the nature of the USA like some Protestants do? Or that I want a theocracy? Orthodoxy is against a theocracy - unlike in England where the king/queen is head of the church which is impossible under Orthodoxy or how the pope is king of the Papal States and heads his own govt in the Vatican - forbidden under Orthodoxy or how Calvinists and other Protestant churches ran there own city-states as seen in Switzerland and Germany.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   10:37:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So what do you believe?

That the USA was not founded on religous principles and was founded to be a secular republic. Something that pissed off the religous folk even then.

"I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country." -- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the "Magna-Charta" here refers to the proposed United States Constitution

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   10:46:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I don't understand why also you assume that if I am an Orthodox believer that means I would lie about the nature of the USA like some Protestants do?

The facts do not lie. Your chosen faith or lack of it, may be the reason you fail to see the importance of the influence of Christianity in the foundation of this nation.

Orthodoxy is against a theocracy - unlike in England where the king/queen is head of the church which is impossible under Orthodoxy or how the pope is king of the Papal States and heads his own govt in the Vatican - forbidden under Orthodoxy or how Calvinists and other Protestant churches ran there own city-states as seen in Switzerland and Germany.

Thanks to the American Revolution and the French Revolution monarchies are mere figure-heads today, and the Vatican has no influence over governments today. America is not a theocracy, but Christianity has played a huge part in its very inception and growth.

Those Calvinist and Protestant churches who ran their own city-states in Switzerland and Germany were undoubtedly very fair, equitable, tolerant and safe places to live.

Twice I have mentioned Israel as having a rule of law, a so-called Democracy, yet totally racist and intolerant. Its very laws are racist and intolerant.

You have not answered my question, how that happened.

I will answer it for you. Because Israel's laws are not founded in Christianity. They are influenced by the Torah, which hates anything non-Jew.

Christianity makes a difference, it is that difference that makes Western Civilization and America different, in a good way; not perfect, but you cannot perfection anywhere on this planet.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   10:48:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

That is because these were Christian men who understood that religious freedom should be available to all within our borders. Where did they get that understanding?

Perhaps some history into the intense differences of opinions about the various Christian denominiations at the time would help you understand why Washington avoided taking any sides.

Israel has a rule of law that is racist and intolerant. There is a difference when the laws are written by true Christians, not the Hagees and Robertsons of today.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   10:57:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Those Calvinist and Protestant churches who ran their own city-states in Switzerland and Germany were undoubtedly very fair, equitable, tolerant and safe places to live.

Twice I have mentioned Israel as having a rule of law, a so-called Democracy, yet totally racist and intolerant. Its very laws are racist and intolerant

Those Calvinist and Protestant churches who ran their own city-states in Switzerland and Germany were undoubtedly very fair, equitable, tolerant and safe places to live???? Except for those they burned at the stake I assume.

As for Israel? I don't get your point? I don't support a theocratic state like Israel and I consider democracies a form of mob rule. Beyond that I don't get how bringing in Israel out of the blue has any bearing on this conversation.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   10:59:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Perhaps some history into the intense differences of opinions about the various Christian denominiations at the time would help you understand why Washington avoided taking any sides.

Which is why the Founding Fathers gave the boot to you religous impositionists.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   11:01:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And I mentioned that they were not perfect, but that no place is.

I don't support a theocratic state like Israel and I consider democracies a form of mob rule.

So what form of govt do you admire?

Israel is an example of a democracy that has a rule of law but is intolerant and racist. And I submitted that one difference would be that the laws were written without any Christian influence.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   11:04:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Which is why the Founding Fathers gave the boot to you religous impositionists.

I am not a religious impositionist, just the opposite.

You really are missing my point. Among the teachings of Christianity are tolerance, equality of man and free will. These teachings influenced our Constitution.

I should add, that ancient Rome found the ideas of Christianity very radical and not good for their totalitarian government, ruled by a small elite.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   11:08:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So what form of govt do you admire?

The Constitution of our Founding Fathers - a Constitution not based on religion - which went out if it's way not to include God or the Bible in its formulation.

If you are a nut job that thinks Calvinist Geneva was a just place then you are no better than the Israelis you claim you hate.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   11:08:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You cannot compare the attitudes and superstitions of people from centuries ago to those of today. Well if you can compare them that shows just how "advanced" that modern nation must actually be.

And again, the reason the Founding Fathers went out of their way not to specify any Christian denomination over another, but to insure religious freedom for all, including future generations, is because they were learned Christians, who understood the teachings of Christianity itself; free will, the equality of man, do unto others as you would have them do unto you (The Golden Rule), etc..

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   11:16:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Some where Christians some were not. The 'some were not' part is what you deny.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   11:21:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Jefferson was not, but a deist; Washington and most of them were.

And even those who were not, would have had the benefit of early Christian teachings to help form their ideas.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   11:25:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Stop dancing around the issue - you are for the imposition of religious values on people.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   11:31:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Stop dancing around the issue - you are for the imposition of religious values on people.

If by "imposition of religious values" you mean I think that all men are created equal, that all men are equal under that law, that a man has the right to stand before his accuser, and the right to a speedy trial, that torture is morally wrong, that murder is morally wrong, that we all have the right to private property, freedom of speech, to learn to read, etc; yes, these values (religious or otherwise), I would impose on people.

These are also values that Christians hold dear and I gave the example of Israel to make my point that not all democracies believe these values are important to uphold.

Of course, GW Bush has changed all that, we're looking more like Israel everyday. They have 9,000 Palestinians rotting in jail, without any due process. We're new at this, and the Bush govt won't even say how many they have tortured and sent to secret prisons.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   11:46:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If by "imposition of religious values" you mean

teaching creationisim or having prayer in school.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   12:05:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

teaching creationisim or having prayer in school.

I don't think these should be mandatory, but private schools should be allowed to, of course. I don't see a problem with "a moment of silence", no one is saying how to spend those few minutes. I would prefer that Evolution be taught as a theory, not as fact (which in a way it is, without any other choice).

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   12:19:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here are some good quotes from the founding fathers on this subject:

Can you direct me to the quotes where the founding fathers advocate the removal of crosses from Christian chapels on campuses? What if we were to go into synagogues and mosques on campuses and remove their symbols, turning their houses of worship into 'non-denominational' spaces? They wouldn't mind, would they?

I'm appalled that anyone would agree with this outrage to Christianity, and to religious belief in general, in America.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-30   13:18:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The West, including America, is determined to commit cultural suicide. There is so much self-loathing among our "intelligentsia" that they really should all just join hands and jump off the Golden Gate Bridge in one mass plunge.

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-10-30   14:09:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The West, including America, is determined to commit cultural suicide.

We committed cultural suicide in 1913. It's taken this long for the corpse to rot.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-30   14:14:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

What if we were to go into synagogues and mosques on campuses and remove their symbols, turning their houses of worship into 'non-denominational' spaces? They wouldn't mind, would they?

Nah, it's all for a good cause. I forget what is the purpose?

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-30   14:21:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

What if we were to go into synagogues and mosques on campuses and remove their symbols, turning their houses of worship into 'non-denominational' spaces?

that wouldn't be PC !

christine  posted on  2006-10-30   14:30:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I would prefer that Evolution be taught as a theory, not as fact (which in a way it is, without any other choice).

Theory in relation to science does not mean a guess.

Like Music theory. Art theory. The theory of gravity.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   15:14:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Can you direct me to the quotes where the founding fathers advocate the removal of crosses from Christian chapels on campuses?

If it's not my church why should I care? I consider female clergy an abomination before God - you don't see me torching heretical Protestant churches with female priests and bishops do you? (All Protestants are heretics).

Plenty of Protestant churches change with the wind. Their right. None of my business. Thank God.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-30   15:17:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If it's not my church why should I care?

Dunno. You're all over this thread so you must care on some level. You certainly don't seem to care about Christian chapels being de-Christianized.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-31   12:33:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Dunno. You're all over this thread so you must care on some level. You certainly don't seem to care about Christian chapels being de-Christianized.

A) I tend not to consider Protestants true Christians so that may be why I don't get all upset also and most importantly - none of my business.

B) I do care if others use these issues to make up a crusade.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-31   12:37:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

most importantly - none of my business.

So why are you on this thread?

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-31   12:45:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The basic doctrine of Christianity is shared by Protestants, Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox.

That is, that Christ is God Incarnate, the existence of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity, the virgin birth.

The Vatican acknowledges this shared faith, permitting Protestants to participate in Communion; I don't know about the Orthodox.

There are certainly differences in tradition and interpretation of some Scripture, but not the really important ones that define Christianity.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-31   12:57:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If it's not my church why should I care?

Dunno. You're all over this thread so you must care on some level. You certainly don't seem to care about Christian chapels being de-Christianized.

He also advocates disunity among Christendom. What's that about if he is not a Christian? He posted he is not Greek Orthodox, so why bother?
And he hates America and he hates Muslims; he has posted so in very strong terms that would have him in trouble if it were another group he was posting about.

Yet this American government that he hates, he backs completely when it comes to the official story about 9/11.

Correct me if I have mischaracterized you Destro.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-31   13:24:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

the official story about 9/11.

When it comes to separating the conditioned sheep from the other barnyard animals, that's the new line of demarcation for me.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-31   13:39:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It could mean even more than that.

Did you catch this Madsen report?

Lani Kass: Israeli Defense Force veteran heading up Air Force Cyberpace warriors. (WMR)

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-31   13:45:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Yet this American government that he hates, he backs completely when it comes to the official story about 9/11.

Correct me if I have mischaracterized you Destro.

Wrong on all counts.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-31   13:58:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Wrong on all counts.

How so?

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-31   14:02:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I don't hate America - I hate her foreign policy (see Kosovo and Bosnia) and in some cases how she has strayed from her constitution where so called conservatives like you actually want the govt involved in some areas but not involved in others. Basically, you types what the govt on your side and when its not on your side advocating your position then you bitch about govt interference.

I don't accept the whole govt story on 9/11 - I just scoff at the notion of a Rube Goldberg like conspiracy where there is coordination between the flights and a whole ground team of demolition experts who prepped the sight with explosives days or hours in advance. That's an example of limited American intellect not able to grasp how the real world works.

I try not to hate Muslims but what's to like? Their whole belief system is alien to my classical Western sensibilities and they are hostile to the way the West thinks - while other alien cultures like Hinduisim for example and Japanese Shintoisim seem to co-exist fine with the West.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-31   14:15:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

He also advocates disunity among Christendom. What's that about if he is not a Christian?

What Christians? American Christians who did what they did to Serbia? That back Turkey over Greek Cyprus? Those Christians? I am sure you guys are the exception - sorry in America the exception is not the rule.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-31   14:17:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I don't accept the whole govt story on 9/11 - I just scoff at the notion of a Rube Goldberg like conspiracy where there is coordination between the flights and a whole ground team of demolition experts who prepped the sight with explosives days or hours in advance. That's an example of limited American intellect not able to grasp how the real world works.

We've been over this and you could not disprove any of the evidence presented on any of the 9/11 threads.

how she has strayed from her constitution where so called conservatives like you actually want the govt involved in some areas but not involved in others.

I want the government involved only as far as the Constitution allows, which is some but not much. Labels don't mean much anymore.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-10-31   14:38:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

We've been over this and you could not disprove any of the evidence presented on any of the 9/11 threads.

1) You can't prove a negative.

2) You guys have not proved a thing - where are your court cases? If your evidence is good enough go to court and charge the govt with wrongful death and get a jury of your peers to agree or rise up and start killing the govt men.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-31   14:54:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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