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Title: College removes cross – from chapel!
Source:
WND
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52646
Published: Oct 27, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-10-27 12:39:53 by bluegrass
Ping List: *New History*
Keywords: None
Views: 4672
Comments: 252
The cross from the altar area of the chapel at the College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., has been removed to ensure the space is seen as a nondenominational area, explains Melissa Engimann, assistant director for Historic Campus. "In order to make the Wren Chapel less of a faith-specific space, and to make it more welcoming to students, faculty, staff and visitors of all faiths, the cross has been removed from the altar area," Engimann announced in an e-mail to staff. The cross will be returned to the altar for those who wish to use it for events, services or private prayer. The cross was in place because of the college's former association with the Anglican Church. Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906, the room will still be considered a chapel, college officials said.
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#87. To: scrapper2 (#86)
oh, i know. think ted kennedy. there are plenty of his ilk in the dem leadership. in general though, the dems don't say that theirs is the party of family values.
In short, it's almost immaterial now, but the sentiment to exterminate is very well documented among the writings of that time. Well then, you've fingered some unsavory characters. I just didn't see the order to send the sick blankets out to the natives. There's no question that they probably would if the opportunity to execute it criminally and with stealth presented. There were some people in positions of power who dealt with natives, and they had no sense of entitlement toward the gritty savages. Probably because they had a history of going ape and getting bloody, and the notion of the white man's burden to educate and shoe them had not yet matured as fashion. But, I didn't see any general order there or anywhere up the line to authorize the wholesale reduction in native numbers through microbe contamination.
National Minority Health Month Foundation Sponsors Free HIV Testing at California NAACP Convention - priceless, I suppose next I'll have to get rabies shots and heartworm dope if I want to unfreeze my bank account...
When the going gets weird the weird turn pro. - Hunter S Thompson
With all due respect, christine, I think you are confusing the reprehensible actions and human flaws of individual bad apples ( who are present in both parties) with the focused and concerted legislation that 1 party, specifically the Democrat Party, promotes as an important aspect of its party platform, gay marriage and adoption, both of which are the antithesis of family values and which would create a potentially risky environment for children and youth in more ways than one. It is one thing to say GOP individuals did not demonstrate good family values in their behavior, but the GOP supports the traditional family unit as being the best for raising children, while the opposite is true of the Democrat Party whose left wing liberal orientation causes it to support legislation aimed at dismantling one of the cornerstones of our society - the traditional family unit.
The problem is the two (niches and occupants) are not wholly independent things. There are no solutions, only trade-offs.
Nobody's all bad. Not even Nazis.
She's got a point there about the crazy water. Races with lower rates of alcoholism have had much longer exposure to alcohol. The drunkard is a gentile because the gentile is a drunkard. :/
Absolutely. The decimating diseases were a godsend, from the point of view of the white colonists. All the great European empires followed the same patterns, and the British furnish as good an example as any of racial incoherence and even naïveté. A surprising example of the latter was the establishment of the first permanent settlement in Jamestown in 1607 (see AR, Jan. 2004). By then, the Spanish had been in the New World for over a century, and had a reputation for massacre. The English were determined to do better, bringing civilization and Christianity to what they expected would be grateful natives. As one backer of the Virginia Company wrote of the Indians he had never seen: “Their children when they come to be saved, will blesse the day when first their fathers saw your faces.” The colonists did not consider themselves superior to the “naturals,” no matter how primitive. They reasoned that the ancient Britons had been savages, civilized by the Romans, and that this process would be repeated. Although the colonists considered themselves racially different from Africans and “Moors,” they thought the Indians were born white and turned dark from exposure to the sun and to skin dyes. The president of the colony, Edward-Maria Wingfield, was so determined to set a loving example that he forbade construction of fortifications and training in the use of weapons. The colony was only ten days old when hundreds of Indians attacked it. If the English had not panicked them with canon fire, the Indians would probably have massacred them all. It was only after this edifying encounter that the colonists built their famous three-sided stockade. The Indian reaction to colonization was the mirror-image of what became the rule in European attitudes towards natives: The tribes that lived closest to Jamestown hated the English and tried to kill them. The more distant ones were friendly and willing to trade. Despite frequent attacks, the English did not give up hope that benevolence would win over the Indians. After the first conversions to Christianity, they set aside 10,000 acres for a college where Indians would be instructed in the faith. One English leader, George Thorpe, was especially insistent on kindness to Indians, and even publicly hanged dogs whose barking had frightened them. As the years went by, Indians and colonists began to mingle, with hired Indians working together with the English in shops and in the field. The appearance of friendliness was false. In 1622, Indians carried out a carefully-hatched extermination plan, turning on the colonists with whom they worked, killing as many as they could. In some areas, they lost the element of surprise and therefore killed only 400 of Jamestown’s 1,200 whites. For Thorpe, the special friend of the Indians, they reserved a particularly cruel death and elaborate mutilation. The remaining colonists launched a war of revenge, but after a year or so relations returned to an appearance of friendliness. Amazingly, in 1644, Indians carried out an identical sneak attack, and managed to kill 400 to 500 people. This time, the English retaliated mercilessly, and in 1646, the Virginia General Assembly noted that the natives were “so routed and dispersed that they are no longer a nation, and we now suffer only from robbery by a few starved outlaws.” What is remarkable about Jamestown is the behavior of the English, not that of the Indians. The English approached the Indians with as much good will as it was probably possible for colonizers to approach the colonized. It was the Indians who recognized that colonization meant dispossession, and they resisted in every way they could. Eventually, of course, the English lost their illusions. By 1690, Governor John Archdale of the Carolinas was praising God for the diseases that killed so many natives: “The Hand of God has been eminently seen in thinning the Indians to make room for the English.” Still, it is sobering to note that even 400 years ago, whites were capable of dangerous illusions in their dealings with non-whites, though they did come to their senses before it was too late. Races with lower rates of alcoholism have had much longer exposure to alcohol. I was thinking about that the other day, how peoples who have been exposed to alcohol for eons don't have problems with it. Interestingly the Aztecs had alcohol, pulque I think it was called, made from fermented cactus. And Mexican natives tend to have less problems with alcohol than others who never had it in their culture until the white man brought it in.
The govt will want to dip you for ticks and other parasites, of course.
It didn't happen all at once because of the scale of the country and the lack of modern industrial methods. Who's forgotten Cambodia? Cambodians haven't, it's the US that ignored the brutality of the Khmer Rouge after creating the chaotic conditions that allowed them to flourish.
Evidence. LOL. What a copout.
You see antiwhite, I see an accurate rendition of facts. Some whites seem to have a persecution complex making them whiney/ As far as Arabs and Muslims, look at their blood stained wars all around the globe and then talk to me about propaganda.
Even more reason to remove the cross since this "space is seen as a nondenominational area".
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
What does Israel have to do with this college removing a cross from a non denominational chapel?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Pagans as well as Christians carried out policies that we would label genocide today. What the then arriving pagan Anglo-Saxon Jutes did to the native Welsh who were Celtic Christian at that time could be labeled as genocide.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
"Well....the other kids do it to" doesn't work on parents who have a brain, and you are going to have to do much much better then this to impress me. Thanks for the eye roller.
I was commenting on Bluegrass' repeated assertions that genocide was a Jewish invention. Work on reading comprehension.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I know what you said, and you got my honest gut reation. Don't like it? Tough. Insults don't impress me either.
Their deeds nullify any good they feel or do.
I doubt that because your response was based on your reading that I was excusing genocide rather than indicating that it is not a Jewish orgin notion.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Listen; first of all, Pagan originated as a label of people like me in a derogatory sense. And I have listened to Christians and others attack my religion enough so I don't like it thrown out there as the originator of something like genocide. I agree with you that the notion that Jewish people started genocide is absurd. Genocide is older than human history. The mere fact that there were more then one species of intelligent hominid and we are the only one left standing speaks volumes of genocide. By virtue of us surviving, one good assumption one can make is that we are the most violent and warlike of the species of intelligent apes that once roamed this planet. I like you Distro, and I mean nothing personal by snapping at you, but your post was not clear on what point you were making, and it is very understandable for me as a Wicca practitioner to see that post and immediately get aggrivated.
scrapper: This is a taxpayer supported college. W&M is not private; it used to be private but not any longer. It is "our" property. And why are you jumping all over the map with your arguments to support W&M's decision? At first you said that there should be separation between gov't and religion. Now you're claiming this is a private matter even though it says quite clearly in the article that W&M receives taxpayer (gov't) support. "Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906..." destro: Even more reason to remove the cross since this "space is seen as a nondenominational area". Oh stop it, your flip flops in the positions you have taken in the course of arguing the merits of W&M's decision fool no one and the ensuing spin only give me a headache like watching the theatrics of a Linda Blair understudy for the Exorcist role.
That's a cross you in the west have to bear - pagan as a derogatory word does not exist in Eastern Christianity. Pagan just means peasant folk. In the east they attack the idolator rather than pagan. That's why you had witch burnings in the west but no witch burnings in the east.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
What is the contradiction there? W&M is not my property nor yours - mind your business.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
And you use a Roman torture device Christians use as a symbol because...? And what proof of this can you cite? I am curious where you get this factoid.
Easy enough - find one case of witch burnings in the eastern world. It was a Latin Catholic and Protestant error not an Eastern Christian one. Pagan just means the folk beliefs of the rural people. As such the eastern church viewed such beliefs as legitimate and potions and the like on par with folk medicines. For example the Orthodox church accepts the pagan (folk) belief evil eye phenomenon which predates Christianity.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Eastern Orthodox countries had few Witch trials. "In parts of the Orthodox East, at least, witch hunts such as those experienced in other parts of Europe were unknown...."The Orthodox Church is strongly critical of sorcerers (among whom it includes palmists, fortune tellers and astrologers), but has not generally seen the remedy in accusations, trials and secular penalties, but rather in confession and repentance, and exorcism if necessary...." 1 "The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Just to give you an idea where I was coming from.
Like I said - That's a cross you in the west have to bear - pagan as a derogatory word does not exist in Eastern Christianity. Pagan just means peasant folk. In the east they attack the idolator rather than pagan. That's why you had witch burnings in the west but no witch burnings in the east. See #110 above.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
W&M is a tax payer supported school - it receives BOTH state and federal funding. I am a taxpayer and therefore and thusly I have every right to consider critically the decisions of the politically correct minions sitting behind desks who are minding my investments in education, as it were. Speak for yourself if this is not your business - maybe you do not pay taxes - but I do - so shove your condescending remarks up your unemployed welfare consuming a** ( if that's your current situation). I stand my the comments which I made in my initial #41 post to you( which I re- list below), and your subsequent contradictory arguments that have hopped all over the map have not pursuaded me otherwise. destro: That's exactly the point of this article - secular republic scrapper: I think the article deals with how political correctness overtakes what should be common sense. This college has a historic association with Christianity, ergo the cross in its chapel. The US gov't did not ram a cross into this chapel and promote Christianity as the nation's favorite religion. This cross was in this chapel for how many decades with how many hundreds of students of various denominations coming into the chapel to pray to their own individual Lord, without feeling they were being brow beaten into converting to Protestantism. And now some idiot PC ( or maybe aetheist) desk jockey at W&M is using the excuse of "well this is a tax supported school now" and "well the chapel should be non-denominational because it's all the room we've got for prayer and someone (?) might get offended if we don't make this change"...puhleaze this is so transparent. How can you argue that this obvious PC ploy relates to separation of state and religion...you are better than pushing this type of limp wristed milque toast rationale, destro...
Wiccans don't bear or wear crosses, thanks. Let the blessings be.
So? Want to return teh school to the Anglican church? Then America should not have fought the American revolution.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
There are no such things - if you say neo-wiccans then I would accept that term. Neo-Wiccans is a modern recreation of wiccan practice the way Civil War reenactors can't claim they are directly connected with the Civil War. Unless you can trace me your wiccan teachers generation to generation you can't claim to be from them just a recreation of them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Wicca is a living, breathing religion. The faith is based on religiosity that has been greatly suppressed and rubbed out to the point much of the culture of the religion that recognizes the power of the Divine Feminine is not existent any longer. The word Wicca was not used for Wicca based religious observance, therefore as this is the first genesis of this word's use for this sort of faith, calling it neo anything can only be done if you have a general desire to pick on my faith, not fact. As far as war reenactors go, they are acting and simulating, Wicca practitioners are involved in real life, present day religious observance. We are in no way reenacting anything, we are living a faith, not simulating our faith as it was done before as actors.
Wicca is a modern recreation of a belief system from the past.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Want to return teh school to the Anglican church? Then America should not have fought the American revolution. No we fought the revolution to have our own nation, not to be dominated by others, to be captains of our destiny. In the course of building a nation we have accumulated traditions and a good deal of history. Why not leave traditions, history alone when they harm no one except for a small group of politically correct (often bordering on Christophobia)who wish to dominate our nation with their narrow and selfish point of view? For how many decades have students of various denominations used this chapel to pray to their own faith's Lord and only now a Ms. Melissa Engifinkelstein oops Engimann, assistant director for the historic Campus, wants to remove the cross? I'm sorry but our forefathers did not fight the revolution to take on the yoke of political correctness and self-serving views as promoted by the likes of Ms. Engimann. The fedgov't did not thrust a cross into the chapel of W&M out of the blue to promote a federally sanctioned religion. This cross has historical import to the school and no contemporary fast fade mortal has the right to dissolve history and tradition with a stroke of a pen to a memo. This self- important administrator should be over ruled forthwith by the university's board of governors. Let Ms. Engimann find a job elsewhere maybe flipping burgers at a non-denominational food outlet - she does not appreciate tradition or history and should be allowed near repositories of those values.
This is what these Founding Fathers had to say on tradition and history: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" -- Thomas Jefferson
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I didn't say it did you word-twister you.
Some whites seem to have a persecution complex making them whiney/ As far as Arabs and Muslims, look at their blood stained wars all around the globe and then talk to me about propaganda. People don't like being blamed for things that other people did, especially when those things go against a person's nature and values. There's just so much blame and finger-pointing going on for things that happened when we were not alive yet. For instance I am anti-war and I believe all living things have souls and we all matter equally. I would never want to be associated with bad acts commited by whites just because I am white.
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#88. To: swarthyguy (#58)
"...that Vermine ... have forfeited all claim to the rights of humanity" (Bouquet to Amherst, 25 June) [149k] "I would rather chuse the liberty to kill any Savage...." (Bouquet to Amherst, 25 June) [121k] "...Measures to be taken as would Bring about the Total Extirpation of those Indian Nations" (Amherst to Sir William Johnson, Superintendent of the Northern Indian Department, 9 July) [229k] "...their Total Extirpation is scarce sufficient Attonement...." (Amherst to George Croghan, Deputy Agent for Indian Affairs, 7 August) [145k] "...put a most Effectual Stop to their very Being" (Amherst to Johnson, 27 August [292k]; emphasis in original).
#89. To: HOUNDDAWG (#88)
#90. To: christine (#87)
oh, i know. think ted kennedy. there are plenty of his ilk in the dem leadership. in general though, the dems don't say that theirs is the party of family values.
#91. To: Ferret Mike (#22)
The important thing is to get rid of the niche, not pick on the occupants and all others like her or him of the same variety.
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#92. To: Destro (#28)
The Nazi legal system was based on the American Jim Crow laws.
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#93. To: Diana (#55)
"before the white man came, we had no alcohol to destroy our families.
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#94. To: swarthyguy (#58)
In short, it's almost immaterial now, but the sentiment to exterminate is very well documented among the writings of that time.
The British
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#95. To: Tauzero (#93)
She's got a point there about the crazy water.
#96. To: Dakmar (#89)
National Minority Health Month Foundation Sponsors Free HIV Testing at California NAACP Convention - priceless, I suppose next I'll have to get rabies shots and heartworm dope if I want to unfreeze my bank account..
#97. To: Diana (#77)
#98. To: HOUNDDAWG (#88)
I just didn't see the order to send the sick blankets out to the natives
#99. To: Diana (#80)
#100. To: scrapper2 (#48)
This is a taxpayer supported college. W&M is not private; it used to be private but not any longer. It is "our" property.
#101. To: Diana (#59)
Does Israel mind it's own business? NOOOOOOOO!
#102. To: Ferret Mike, bluegrass (#71)
#103. To: Destro (#102)
"Pagans as well as Christians carried out policies that we would label genocide today. What the then arriving pagan Anglo-Saxon Jutes did to the native Welsh who were Celtic Christian at that time could be labeled as genocide."
#104. To: Ferret Mike, Bluegrass (#103)
"Well....the other kids do it to" doesn't work on parents who have a brain, and you are going to have to do much much better then this to impress me.
#105. To: Destro (#104)
"Work on reading comprehension."
#106. To: Tauzero (#92)
(Edited)
"Nobody's all bad. Not even Nazis."
#107. To: Ferret Mike (#105)
I know what you said, and you got my honest gut reation. Don't like it? Tough. Insults don't impress me either.
#108. To: Destro (#104)
(Edited)
#109. To: Destro (#100)
destro: W&M is not the property of you or the people - they can do whatever they like. This is like me getting upset some Protestnat denominations ordain women while at the same time I am not a Protestant. None of my business.
#110. To: Ferret Mike (#108)
Listen; first of all, Pagan originated as a label of people like me in a derogatory sense. And I have listened to Christians and others attack my religion enough so I don't like it thrown out there as the originator of something like genocide.
#111. To: scrapper2 (#109)
(Edited)
At first you said that there should be separation between gov't and religion. Now you're claiming this is a private matter even though it says quite clearly in the article that W&M receives taxpayer (gov't) support.
#112. To: Destro (#110)
"That's a cross you in the west have to bear..."
"That's why you had witch burnings in the west but no witch burnings in the east."
#113. To: Ferret Mike (#112)
And what proof of this can you cite? I am curious where you get this factoid.
#114. To: Ferret Mike (#112)
And what proof of this can you cite? I am curious where you get this factoid.
#115. To: Destro (#113)
"Historically, the term "pagan" has usually had pejorative connotations among westerners, comparable to heathen, infidel and kafir in Islam."
#116. To: Ferret Mike (#115)
"Historically, the term "pagan" has usually had pejorative connotations among westerners, comparable to heathen, infidel and kafir in Islam."
#117. To: Destro (#111)
What is the contradiction there? W&M is not my property nor yours - mind your business.
#118. To: Destro (#116)
"That's a cross you in the west have to bear..."
#119. To: scrapper2 (#117)
W&M is a tax payer supported school - it receives BOTH state and federal funding.
#120. To: Ferret Mike (#118)
Wiccans don't bear or wear crosses, thanks.
#121. To: Destro (#120)
Main Entry: Wic·ca
Pronunciation: 'wi-k&
Function: noun
Etymology: probably from Old English wicca wizard -- more at WITCH : a religion influenced by pre-Christian beliefs and practices of western Europe that affirms the existence of supernatural power (as magic) and of both male and female deities who inhere in nature and that emphasizes ritual observance of seasonal and life cycles
- Wic·can /'wi-k&n/ adjective or noun
#122. To: Ferret Mike (#121)
Wicca practitioners are involved in real life, present day religious observance.
#123. To: Destro (#119)
W&M is a tax payer supported school - it receives BOTH state and federal funding. So?
#124. To: scrapper2 (#123)
(Edited)
Why not leave traditions, history alone when they harm no one except for a small group of politically correct (often bordering on Christophobia)who wish to dominate our nation with their narrow and selfish point of view?
#125. To: Destro (#101)
What does Israel have to do with this college removing a cross from a non denominational chapel?
#126. To: swarthyguy (#99)
You see antiwhite, I see an accurate rendition of facts.
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