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Title: College removes cross – from chapel!
Source:
WND
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52646
Published: Oct 27, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-10-27 12:39:53 by bluegrass
Ping List: *New History*
Keywords: None
Views: 4771
Comments: 252
The cross from the altar area of the chapel at the College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., has been removed to ensure the space is seen as a nondenominational area, explains Melissa Engimann, assistant director for Historic Campus. "In order to make the Wren Chapel less of a faith-specific space, and to make it more welcoming to students, faculty, staff and visitors of all faiths, the cross has been removed from the altar area," Engimann announced in an e-mail to staff. The cross will be returned to the altar for those who wish to use it for events, services or private prayer. The cross was in place because of the college's former association with the Anglican Church. Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906, the room will still be considered a chapel, college officials said.
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#104. To: Ferret Mike, Bluegrass (#103)
I was commenting on Bluegrass' repeated assertions that genocide was a Jewish invention. Work on reading comprehension.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I know what you said, and you got my honest gut reation. Don't like it? Tough. Insults don't impress me either.
Their deeds nullify any good they feel or do.
I doubt that because your response was based on your reading that I was excusing genocide rather than indicating that it is not a Jewish orgin notion.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Listen; first of all, Pagan originated as a label of people like me in a derogatory sense. And I have listened to Christians and others attack my religion enough so I don't like it thrown out there as the originator of something like genocide. I agree with you that the notion that Jewish people started genocide is absurd. Genocide is older than human history. The mere fact that there were more then one species of intelligent hominid and we are the only one left standing speaks volumes of genocide. By virtue of us surviving, one good assumption one can make is that we are the most violent and warlike of the species of intelligent apes that once roamed this planet. I like you Distro, and I mean nothing personal by snapping at you, but your post was not clear on what point you were making, and it is very understandable for me as a Wicca practitioner to see that post and immediately get aggrivated.
scrapper: This is a taxpayer supported college. W&M is not private; it used to be private but not any longer. It is "our" property. And why are you jumping all over the map with your arguments to support W&M's decision? At first you said that there should be separation between gov't and religion. Now you're claiming this is a private matter even though it says quite clearly in the article that W&M receives taxpayer (gov't) support. "Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906..." destro: Even more reason to remove the cross since this "space is seen as a nondenominational area". Oh stop it, your flip flops in the positions you have taken in the course of arguing the merits of W&M's decision fool no one and the ensuing spin only give me a headache like watching the theatrics of a Linda Blair understudy for the Exorcist role.
That's a cross you in the west have to bear - pagan as a derogatory word does not exist in Eastern Christianity. Pagan just means peasant folk. In the east they attack the idolator rather than pagan. That's why you had witch burnings in the west but no witch burnings in the east.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
What is the contradiction there? W&M is not my property nor yours - mind your business.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
And you use a Roman torture device Christians use as a symbol because...? And what proof of this can you cite? I am curious where you get this factoid.
Easy enough - find one case of witch burnings in the eastern world. It was a Latin Catholic and Protestant error not an Eastern Christian one. Pagan just means the folk beliefs of the rural people. As such the eastern church viewed such beliefs as legitimate and potions and the like on par with folk medicines. For example the Orthodox church accepts the pagan (folk) belief evil eye phenomenon which predates Christianity.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Eastern Orthodox countries had few Witch trials. "In parts of the Orthodox East, at least, witch hunts such as those experienced in other parts of Europe were unknown...."The Orthodox Church is strongly critical of sorcerers (among whom it includes palmists, fortune tellers and astrologers), but has not generally seen the remedy in accusations, trials and secular penalties, but rather in confession and repentance, and exorcism if necessary...." 1 "The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Just to give you an idea where I was coming from.
Like I said - That's a cross you in the west have to bear - pagan as a derogatory word does not exist in Eastern Christianity. Pagan just means peasant folk. In the east they attack the idolator rather than pagan. That's why you had witch burnings in the west but no witch burnings in the east. See #110 above.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
W&M is a tax payer supported school - it receives BOTH state and federal funding. I am a taxpayer and therefore and thusly I have every right to consider critically the decisions of the politically correct minions sitting behind desks who are minding my investments in education, as it were. Speak for yourself if this is not your business - maybe you do not pay taxes - but I do - so shove your condescending remarks up your unemployed welfare consuming a** ( if that's your current situation). I stand my the comments which I made in my initial #41 post to you( which I re- list below), and your subsequent contradictory arguments that have hopped all over the map have not pursuaded me otherwise. destro: That's exactly the point of this article - secular republic scrapper: I think the article deals with how political correctness overtakes what should be common sense. This college has a historic association with Christianity, ergo the cross in its chapel. The US gov't did not ram a cross into this chapel and promote Christianity as the nation's favorite religion. This cross was in this chapel for how many decades with how many hundreds of students of various denominations coming into the chapel to pray to their own individual Lord, without feeling they were being brow beaten into converting to Protestantism. And now some idiot PC ( or maybe aetheist) desk jockey at W&M is using the excuse of "well this is a tax supported school now" and "well the chapel should be non-denominational because it's all the room we've got for prayer and someone (?) might get offended if we don't make this change"...puhleaze this is so transparent. How can you argue that this obvious PC ploy relates to separation of state and religion...you are better than pushing this type of limp wristed milque toast rationale, destro...
Wiccans don't bear or wear crosses, thanks. Let the blessings be.
So? Want to return teh school to the Anglican church? Then America should not have fought the American revolution.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
There are no such things - if you say neo-wiccans then I would accept that term. Neo-Wiccans is a modern recreation of wiccan practice the way Civil War reenactors can't claim they are directly connected with the Civil War. Unless you can trace me your wiccan teachers generation to generation you can't claim to be from them just a recreation of them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Wicca is a living, breathing religion. The faith is based on religiosity that has been greatly suppressed and rubbed out to the point much of the culture of the religion that recognizes the power of the Divine Feminine is not existent any longer. The word Wicca was not used for Wicca based religious observance, therefore as this is the first genesis of this word's use for this sort of faith, calling it neo anything can only be done if you have a general desire to pick on my faith, not fact. As far as war reenactors go, they are acting and simulating, Wicca practitioners are involved in real life, present day religious observance. We are in no way reenacting anything, we are living a faith, not simulating our faith as it was done before as actors.
Wicca is a modern recreation of a belief system from the past.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Want to return teh school to the Anglican church? Then America should not have fought the American revolution. No we fought the revolution to have our own nation, not to be dominated by others, to be captains of our destiny. In the course of building a nation we have accumulated traditions and a good deal of history. Why not leave traditions, history alone when they harm no one except for a small group of politically correct (often bordering on Christophobia)who wish to dominate our nation with their narrow and selfish point of view? For how many decades have students of various denominations used this chapel to pray to their own faith's Lord and only now a Ms. Melissa Engifinkelstein oops Engimann, assistant director for the historic Campus, wants to remove the cross? I'm sorry but our forefathers did not fight the revolution to take on the yoke of political correctness and self-serving views as promoted by the likes of Ms. Engimann. The fedgov't did not thrust a cross into the chapel of W&M out of the blue to promote a federally sanctioned religion. This cross has historical import to the school and no contemporary fast fade mortal has the right to dissolve history and tradition with a stroke of a pen to a memo. This self- important administrator should be over ruled forthwith by the university's board of governors. Let Ms. Engimann find a job elsewhere maybe flipping burgers at a non-denominational food outlet - she does not appreciate tradition or history and should be allowed near repositories of those values.
This is what these Founding Fathers had to say on tradition and history: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" -- Thomas Jefferson
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I didn't say it did you word-twister you.
Some whites seem to have a persecution complex making them whiney/ As far as Arabs and Muslims, look at their blood stained wars all around the globe and then talk to me about propaganda. People don't like being blamed for things that other people did, especially when those things go against a person's nature and values. There's just so much blame and finger-pointing going on for things that happened when we were not alive yet. For instance I am anti-war and I believe all living things have souls and we all matter equally. I would never want to be associated with bad acts commited by whites just because I am white.
It was recreated because the Goddess never died. It is people celebrating a religion and is a living breathing faith.
I accept that. I am glad you accepted my characterization of Wicca as a recreation - I attempt to convert no one.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Then why did you and Bluegrass harp on about Israel?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" -- Thomas Jefferson Oh really? What a clever response. Well you given me 2 out of context quotations and nothing from or about the man who laid down the principles of our Bill of Rights - George Mason - and whom George Washington (Mason's neighbor) and Thomas Jefferson greatly admired. Fyi, George Mason was a heavy duty man of faith and along with his neighbor, George Washington, served on the [church] building committee of Truro Parish, which consisted of three churches. There have been books published with George Washington's Prayers and his addresses to the churches. James Madison declared January 12, 1815 " A Day of Public Humiliation and Fasting"..."The two houses of the National Legislature having, by a joint resolution expressed their desire that, in the present time of public calamity and war, a day may be recommended to be observed by the people of the United States as a day of public humiliation and fasting, and of prayer to Almighty god for the safety and welfare of these States, his blessing on their arms and a speedy restoration of peace..." So all in all I have every reason to believe that George Mason, George Washington, and James Madison would be appalled to see Ms. Engimann's somewhat small minded Christophic behavior. W&M became a public college in 1906, so for 60 long years students and administrators came and went without being offended by the cross in the college chapel and only now, 60 years later, an anti-Christian bureaucrat decides to tear assunder history and tradition "for the common good." Pardon me but I smell something rather odiferous and selfish in Ms. Engifinkelstein ooops Ms. Engimann's action.
These shrill, hysterical, hate filled, mindless rants of yours do nothing to convnice others of your point of view. Try presenting facts or a logical argument instad. Read up on what you wnat to pontificate on. Remember that Wikipedia is not a souce. Being able to shriek mindless hate louder than anyone else in the room just makes you come off as a hot flash buffoon on a hormone binge.
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Being able to shriek mindless hate louder than anyone else in the room just makes you come off as a hot flash buffoon on a hormone binge. Uh...did I quote wikipedia to you in this thread? Errr...how am I supposed to respond to your post?...thank you for your educated calm response (NOT). I am always struck but your intellectual gravitas (NOT). What is your point with this post? You have not added one single iota of fact or considered opinion or new insight to our discussion about the W&M article. Indeed, you did not even allude to W&M once in your tirade against me personally. Your empty ad hominem attack is rather self-revealing, I'm afraid.
Less of an error religious fundamentalists in America make when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking. It is no accident that blue blooded WASP Freemason/Skull&Bones man like Bush called Jesus his favorite philosopher. To a student of the esoteric - such a statement was telling even if it went over people's heads.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Have another glass of Chardonnay and tell Ferret what a worthless idiot he is again. Are you buckeroo on another ID?
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Now what are you referring to? I thought I was harping on about how what happened to the American Indians.
He's very good at that sort of thing. Now I have to go through this thread to see where I was harping on about Israel. Perhaps he is referring to my response when he said, "mind your own business" and said Israel does not mind it's own business. So that must mean I went on and on and on putting down Israel, in his mind anyway. I'm glad to see you running circles around him. He likes to distort and twist things though I know you see it too.
It is no accident that blue blooded WASP Freemason/Skull&Bones man like Bush called Jesus his favorite philosopher. Whether our nation's founding fathers were deists and church going Christians in name only is not the point. They believed in freedom to practice religion without interference from the government and they did not fear Christian symbols because the vast majority of early Americans were practising Christians and Christian symbolism has been embedded in every nook and corner of our nation's foundation - from our monies to our federal government building decor to our national anthem to our judicial system, heavens even our most powerful elected executive is sworn into office with a New Testament Bible. Our founding fathers did not fear history or tradition - many of them admired Greek and Roman philosophers and also period architecture whose styles were integrated into our lovely DC federal government buildings. Secularism is a post modern concept that a minority of followers have used to tyrannize our country, to rob our nation of commonly understood and respected history and traditions. It is people like the Michael Newhouse's and the Ms. Engimann's who are even more dangerous than the fundies because the fundies rarely get into a position to impose their will on our nation's rich heritage. Who cares what George Bush believes in? His religious beliefs are irrelevant. The historical underpinnings of this Christian nation are immortal. This is a Christian nation - always has and always will be. No mere mortal passing through time should have any right to "delete" history due to personal fear or prejudice against a Christian symbol in her midst. This administrator at W&M should be fired. She has no appreciation of history, of what far better people than her have contributed to this nation generally, to W&M specifically, in times past. She should not be allowed to work in a college with history like W&M. If she likes a so called secular modern national environment, let her immigrate to Israel. She most likely could apply for citizenship there.
Are you buckeroo on another ID? What it is your point or rather what is your problem? Did I tell Ferret he was a worthless idiot? I believe I did not. You however view Ferret as a worthless idiot. I notice there's a heck of a lot of self- projected insult to Ferret going on but that's a problem between him and you, don't drag me into it. You have not contributed 1 single salient good idea to this discussion thread about the W&M issue. Buzz off and read some books on google, go to the library and borrow some books, or go to a bookstore and stand around books, whatever it takes to fill our head with something other than the sense of inadequacy, inferiority you obviously feel since you are unable to discuss politics or even come up with a cyber moniker that is a derivative of an English word. I feel sorry for you but I'm not a psychiatrist.
The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part: "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797. Also recall that almost from the inception there was an active movement to pass a Constitutional Amendment declaring the US a Christian Nation. This effort repeatedly failed and the effort was eventually abandonned sometime around the Civil War.
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To support my contention that America always has been a Christian nation from its founding to the present: a. Historic foundation Courtesy of the Library of Congress historical archives: "Religion and the founding of the American Republic" http://www.loc.gov/exhibi ts/religion/rel04.html b. Christian religious identification continues today "American Religious Identification Survey" http ://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm * the proportion of the population that can be classified as Christian has declined from eighty-six in 1990 to seventy-seven percent in 2001; * although the number of adults who classify themselves in non-Christian religious groups has increased from about 5.8 million to about 7.7 million, the proportion of non-Christians has increased only by a very small amount - from 3.3 % to about 3.7 %; * the greatest increase in absolute as well as in percentage terms has been among those adults who do not subscribe to any religious identification; their number has more than doubled from 14.3 million in 1990 to 29.4 million in 2001; their proportion has grown from just eight percent of the total in 1990 to over fourteen percent in 2001 "Secularists" represent an insignificant minority in this nation - they better get used to seeing Christian symbolism in their midst because the trend for self- identification with Christianity will only become more pronounced after the 20- 40 MILLION illegal CATHOLIC Hispanics get legalized, which will happen post haste after the November elections. Within the next 25-50 years I predict we will have a CATHOLIC Hispanic President and there will be crosses here, there will be crosses there, there will be crosses everywhere, so the Missy Engimanns better invest in blinders for their "secular" ( wink, wink) eyes, if they want to stick around America.
Btw, nice informative post.
The type of Christians the Founding Fathers were in no way resembles how the fundamentalists in America make them out to be when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking. The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part: "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The USA is and was a Christian nation. The founding fathers were practising Christians. The first amendment of the constitution guarantees a citizens right to practice his/her religion without interference from government. This article has nothing to do with government interfering or imposing a religion. W&M was established as a private college and is the second oldest campus in the USA. W&M's chapel with its cross has been there since the college's founding. The cross remained in its chapel for 60 ( count them 6-0) long years after W&M was made a public college without causing problems for the students and professors. Suddenly in 2006 one non-Christian administrator has imposed her personal Christophobic beliefs on tradition and history. Her decision has ZERO to do with a federal or state order. No court order was issued to our best knowledge. She should be fired for imposing her will, her personal beliefs on a chapel that reflects Americana history and Christian tradition. P.S. I'm not a Protestant but I am an American who respects tradition and history. I do not respect tyrants. I do not respect Ms. Engimann's decision.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest"Well....the other kids do it to" doesn't work on parents who have a brain, and you are going to have to do much much better then this to impress me.
#105. To: Destro (#104)
"Work on reading comprehension."
#106. To: Tauzero (#92)
(Edited)
"Nobody's all bad. Not even Nazis."
#107. To: Ferret Mike (#105)
I know what you said, and you got my honest gut reation. Don't like it? Tough. Insults don't impress me either.
#108. To: Destro (#104)
(Edited)
#109. To: Destro (#100)
destro: W&M is not the property of you or the people - they can do whatever they like. This is like me getting upset some Protestnat denominations ordain women while at the same time I am not a Protestant. None of my business.
#110. To: Ferret Mike (#108)
Listen; first of all, Pagan originated as a label of people like me in a derogatory sense. And I have listened to Christians and others attack my religion enough so I don't like it thrown out there as the originator of something like genocide.
#111. To: scrapper2 (#109)
(Edited)
At first you said that there should be separation between gov't and religion. Now you're claiming this is a private matter even though it says quite clearly in the article that W&M receives taxpayer (gov't) support.
#112. To: Destro (#110)
"That's a cross you in the west have to bear..."
"That's why you had witch burnings in the west but no witch burnings in the east."
#113. To: Ferret Mike (#112)
And what proof of this can you cite? I am curious where you get this factoid.
#114. To: Ferret Mike (#112)
And what proof of this can you cite? I am curious where you get this factoid.
#115. To: Destro (#113)
"Historically, the term "pagan" has usually had pejorative connotations among westerners, comparable to heathen, infidel and kafir in Islam."
#116. To: Ferret Mike (#115)
"Historically, the term "pagan" has usually had pejorative connotations among westerners, comparable to heathen, infidel and kafir in Islam."
#117. To: Destro (#111)
What is the contradiction there? W&M is not my property nor yours - mind your business.
#118. To: Destro (#116)
"That's a cross you in the west have to bear..."
#119. To: scrapper2 (#117)
W&M is a tax payer supported school - it receives BOTH state and federal funding.
#120. To: Ferret Mike (#118)
Wiccans don't bear or wear crosses, thanks.
#121. To: Destro (#120)
Main Entry: Wic·ca
Pronunciation: 'wi-k&
Function: noun
Etymology: probably from Old English wicca wizard -- more at WITCH : a religion influenced by pre-Christian beliefs and practices of western Europe that affirms the existence of supernatural power (as magic) and of both male and female deities who inhere in nature and that emphasizes ritual observance of seasonal and life cycles
- Wic·can /'wi-k&n/ adjective or noun
#122. To: Ferret Mike (#121)
Wicca practitioners are involved in real life, present day religious observance.
#123. To: Destro (#119)
W&M is a tax payer supported school - it receives BOTH state and federal funding. So?
#124. To: scrapper2 (#123)
(Edited)
Why not leave traditions, history alone when they harm no one except for a small group of politically correct (often bordering on Christophobia)who wish to dominate our nation with their narrow and selfish point of view?
#125. To: Destro (#101)
What does Israel have to do with this college removing a cross from a non denominational chapel?
#126. To: swarthyguy (#99)
You see antiwhite, I see an accurate rendition of facts.
#127. To: Destro (#122)
"Wicca is a modern recreation of a belief system from the past."
#128. To: Ferret Mike (#127)
It was recreated because the Goddess never died. It is people celebrating a religion and is a living breathing faith.
#129. To: Diana (#125)
What does Israel have to do with this college removing a cross from a non denominational chapel?
#130. To: Destro (#124)
This is what these Founding Fathers had to say on tradition and history:
#131. To: scrapper2 (#117)
Speak for yourself if this is not your business - maybe you do not pay taxes - but I do - so shove your condescending remarks up your unemployed welfare consuming a** ( if that's your current situation).
#132. To: ... (#131)
Remember that Wikipedia is not a souce.
#133. To: scrapper2 (#130)
Well you given me 2 out of context quotations.......
#134. To: scrapper2 (#132)
#135. To: Destro (#129)
Then why did you and Bluegrass harp on about Israel?
#136. To: scrapper2, Destro (#130)
Well you given me 2 out of context quotations and nothing from or about the man who laid down the principles of our Bill of Rights -
#137. To: Destro (#133)
Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.
#138. To: ... (#134)
Have another glass of Chardonnay and tell Ferret what a worthless idiot he is again.
#139. To: Destro (#133)
Less of an error religious fundamentalists in America make when they try and usurp the Founding Fathers and portray the Founding Fathers as Southern Evangelical interpretations of what Old Testament patriarchs were like. Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.
#140. To: Destro (#133)
Washington like Jefferson accepted Christianity up to a point - the philosophy of Christ devoid of the supernatural - a common deist/Freemason line of thinking.
#141. To: ... (#139)
#142. To: scrapper2 (#141)
#143. To: Destro (#142)
The Treaty of Tripoli gives a good insight into the mindset of the founding fathers on the issue of relgion. Article 11 of the Treaty says in part:
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