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Title: College removes cross – from chapel!
Source:
WND
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52646
Published: Oct 27, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-10-27 12:39:53 by bluegrass
Ping List: *New History*
Keywords: None
Views: 4794
Comments: 252
The cross from the altar area of the chapel at the College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., has been removed to ensure the space is seen as a nondenominational area, explains Melissa Engimann, assistant director for Historic Campus. "In order to make the Wren Chapel less of a faith-specific space, and to make it more welcoming to students, faculty, staff and visitors of all faiths, the cross has been removed from the altar area," Engimann announced in an e-mail to staff. The cross will be returned to the altar for those who wish to use it for events, services or private prayer. The cross was in place because of the college's former association with the Anglican Church. Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906, the room will still be considered a chapel, college officials said.
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#153. To: Destro, Bluegrass (#148)
Well of course, what do you expect from a bunch of American Christians who all live in trailers, have missing teeth and never made it past 8th grade? We are all married to our first cousins, and our children are all mentally retarded, and we don't have souls either, but you already know that. We also listen to banjo music in our free time and live on MacDonalds hamburgers. I suppose we should feel honored that you would connect with lowly creatures such as us.
What does that mean? I will enforce religion on the people? Did you not learn from the Pope's comment on what the Byzantine emperor had tos ay about religion and force?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
NOT!
Another point that you might want to keep in mind is that before 1800 only about 10% of the population of the US were members of Christian Congregations. I've seen this figure as low as 6.5% and as high as 15%, but the point is that only a very small percentage belonged to organized Christian Churches. At the time, organized religion had a bad name. The excessess of the inquisition and the witch trials were not that far away from these people. Many of the religious adherents in the colonies were kooks who had been kicked out of Europe for being intolerent trouble makers. They didn't sell with the general population. Among others, Robert, T. Handy documents this in his book "A History of the Churches in U.S. and Canada," New York: Oxford University Press, 1977. The American Revolution was driven by Enlightenment Thinkers. By and large these people were Diests (Jefferson) or Rational Theists (Franklin). They believed in the Masonic tradition of preserving the Enlightenment from over bearing kings, popes and wild eyed religious nuts. From what I have read of Jefferson (and some of which is bolded above) he did believe in a "wall" of separation between church and state least Christian Taliban types seek to establish a theocracy over rest. Also recall that true to Jefferson's fear, the Christian Taliban types tried to do exactly what Jefferson feared. For almost 80 years after the Bill of Rights was ratified the minority Christian contingent sought an amendment declaring the US a "Christian Nation". They were shot down time and time again by the founding fathers and finally gave up as the Civil War got underway.
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The Second Great Awakening - which saw a rise in the hostility towards Freemasons. Which is when the Freemasons went underground forming true secret societies like Skull&Bones (no coincidence it was founded during that Second Awakening) and created a dichotomy in America. Before the Second Great Awakening fervent Christians and those Americans that were deists lived side by side with each tolerating each other. Then the Second great Awakening changed that and drove the deists underground. That is why the upper crust seem to worship a different God than the great unwashed Americans and why there exists a hostility between the upper and lower crusts and maybe why there exists a mood in lower crust America that the upper crust conspires against them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Not, what? I never said I was Orthodox - I just defend them against what America does to them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I suggest you read through the historic archives of Library of Congress which clearly demonstrates the Christain connection to the early history of America. The page heading that Library of Congress associates with the founding of the American Republic is rather telling: "Religion and the founding of the American Republic"
Religion and the founding of the American Republic" The url keeps getting fragmented by Neil's program. Copy and paste the url and then remove the erroneous space that for whatever reason appears in the word "exhibits."
Interesting you divide America into upper-class Deists and the great unwashed, i.e., Christians. You forgetting the Sons of Satan, despised in every country that's stupid enough to allow them in, because of their lying, stealing, cowardice, and attempts to destroy both culture and the country itself.
"We become what we behold. We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." -- Marshall McLuhan, after Alexander Pope and William Blake.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibi ts/religion/rel04.html Why did you post this? It does absolutely nothing advance your argument or disprove anything that was said on the other side. It simply says that there were deeply religious men -- amonst others -- in the group the we call the founding fathers. No one disputes that. The article is fluff for Jr. High School kids writing term papers. If you disagree, post the relevant portion that proves your point. Use your cut and paste function. My point is that the actual founding fathers published a docment clearly stating that this was NOT a christian nation. It was ratified by Congress. I posted quotes from the primary founding fathers to show that this was no fluke and was in accordance with thier wishes.
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The pure Deism has all be died out. It is kind of a hard sell and it seems to promise very little to the adherent. At least from what I've read and seen. For example, Jefferson did not believe that prayers were answered or that God was necessarily involved with him personally. He believed that God had a plan for the world and that the plan was no doubt unfolding as it should. Essentially, God was busy and an indvidual person wasn't that unimportant. The rationalists were even having trouble with free will as Newton gave them a clockwork universe where all outcomes were pre-determined. Postulating a soul was one way out of this logical bind. It makes me wonder how religious these types would have been had they known of the uncertainty principle. The Rational Theists believed that God listened to them, and was no doubt involved in their personal lives, but that the divine itself was probably unknowable. One became acquainted with portions of God through a life of simple morality. I think the Quakers, and later Unity and some Methodist denominations still practice versions of this - as well as the newer earth based religions that seem to be popping up. I think both of these philosophies are a bit too abstract for the average person. They are something that people like Jefferson or Descartes arrived at after a long analysis. It's not very comforting to a person being driven into the church doors because his job went overseas.
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Is there a puke icon around here?
Destro please, things are not so black and white as they appear to you. You only seem to see two extreme ends without recognising the many shades of grey inbetween.
Actually this sounds somewhat like Russian history starting in late 1800s. Substitute the word Russian for Amerian. I'm afraid history is about to repeat itself.
Considering the sick bastard infesting the White House now believes his God speaks to him directly, you have to admire a President like Jefferson who was so lacking in hubris he felt the creator felt he was too unimportant to bother with personally.
Sounds almost biblical.
Not really - just trying to use descriptive language of how I think the situation is viewd by our elites. See the movie 'Caddyshack'. The ruling elite of this nation - especially the leading lights of the Revolution where not Christians - call them deists if you will - I would call them post-Christians - which is why it confuses uneducated Americans because they seem Christian on the outside but they are devoid of religious Christianity. by the early 1800s, the Second Great Awakening challenged this group of what we would now call secularists - even if they were not secularists in the modern sense. The Second Great Awakening freaked out the 'deists' who were always a minority - but they were an open and powerful minority. So they went underground. This is what Americans don't understand about America. That America is a two tiered nation and the origins of this is that time in America. Freemasons/Deists went underground - but when the smoke cleared the freemasons that reformed were not the same freemasons of old. They were split in two. The open freemasons just became a gentleman's club while the elite founded secret societies like Skull&Bones. Over time this 'upper crust' no longer saw the uninitiated as fellow Americans - just dangerous rabble to be controlled. This has created over the centuries a disconnect between the rulers and the ruled. This is the origin of the almost gut feeling that people have that there are conspiracies directed against them from the top. PS: Did you know that the Marine Corps was founded in the first Freemasonic temple in the states? By Freemasons? officered by Freemasons? and developed a training based on Freemasonic principals? If there was ever a Freemasonic armed force it is the USMC.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The level of discourse among Americans is shocking. Where did I say it was black and white? America is all grey. If you can't understand where I am coming from I am sorry.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Who are you to criticize my Library of Congress link to archival US history material that has copies of original documents with commentary text that covers multi decades of history of what is known as America, when you and your compadre, Destro, have posted selective quotations out of context and links to a website of a tired old man called Loeflin who has a hard on about fundie Christians (like who doesn't, duh?) Get off your high horse. And fyi the reason I did not cut and paste "relevent portions" is because the whole damn url deals with material that proves that the Founding Fathers were for the most part PRACTISING CHRISTIANS ( cover your eyes!) and that the founding settlers of this great nation were by and large PRACTISING CHRISTIANS! Hello. Everything at the site is pertinent to that point. The Library of Congress is replete with history that supports that common sense observation about the nation called America. The fact that you and Destro say well, the founding fathers voted against naming America a Christian nation and a couple of Founding Fathers might be cynical church goers means what exactly? The 2 of you are high 5-ing about what revelation that only the 2 of you apparently are seeing. Spit it out. Tell us posters who have post graduate degrees. What do you 2 bright lights see that others of us possibly with far better academic credentials do not? The founding fathers did not want to establish a national religion. They wanted Americans to be able to practice their religion free from gov't interference. That is obvious except to someone living under a rock. But you and Destro are trying to jump from that widely known historical fact to promote an false idea about America - that it was not founded by Christians nor is it a Christian nation today. That theory has no support whatsoever. Have you heard of the Pilgrims? Have you looked at US currency? Have you ever watched the inaugural ceremony of the most important executive officer in the land? Have you ever visited the Supreme Court bldg - the highest court in the nation? There are Christian symbols in all aspects of American political and judicial and everyday life - do you think that comes by random chance? "The facts on the ground" speak to America as being founded by Christians as it is peopled by a majority of Christians today. If you don't like living in a Christian nation, sorry, move to Israel or to India or to Saudi Arabia. Perhaps some of those countries will offer you a non-Christian religious ambience which you may care for better. The US gov't has never established Christianity as the official religion but the majority of people who live in this country are Christians. Try as you may to fool yourself that history and facts on the ground today are different, you are wrong. You are in the midst of a Christian nation. Its founders were Christians. Its first settlers were Christians - they were known not as Buddhists, not as Muslims, not as Jews. The first Americans after the Revolution were still primarily CHRISTIANS, just as the first settlers under British rule were known as Christians. Regardless of the serenade that you and Destro sing to one another, this article - you know what we are supposed to be addressing - has zero to do with the First Amendment or the religion of the Founding Fathers or the early American settlers. Ms. Engimann does not refer to either subject that you and Destro run off at the mouth about. Ms. Engimann is making the decision to remove the cross from the chapel because of either a) PC hooey or b) because she is Christophobic and wants to take advantage of her position to impose her will and beliefs on W&M. . Stick to the material at hand. Thank you very much. And btw, just because you are still sore that I shot you down on another thread where you were trying to drum up votes for the Dimwit Party as being oh so different than the Repukes, you don't need to carry a grudge for days on end. Get over it.
Red Herring. As you know, and as anyone can see from reading above, I didn't criticize the Library of Congress page you posted, I simply said it wasn't on point. And it wasn't or you could have posted the relevant portions here as I asked. I said before, the article was general fluff put up to help kids do term papers. And that's precisely what it is. As I also said above, the article basically says that some of the founding fathers were very religious. Nobody disputes this and it has no real bearing on the current discussion. Over the years I've learned how to counter your tactic of very specific claim allegedly backed up with overly general reference. Becky Saunders on LP used to make very specific claims regarding the Iraq war tactics and then post a reference to the home page of Janes Military Hardware to back them up. Similarly, you claimed that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation - and not as a secular nation - and you then cite the entire Library of congress for support. In addition, you post a link to an article that is pure fluff and which discusses a collateral point, i.e., that some of the founding fathers were religious. I counter this tactic by asking you to cut and paste the particular sentence or paragraph in the article that backs up your claim. Reading the artcile at the link you posted, I don't think you can do this.
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Dear Ms. Clueless, I don't need to cut and paste - the whole text and original documents at the Library of Congress url speaks to the fact that the USA was founded by Christians, both settlers and framers of the Constitution. The material also addresses the fact that Christianity was not legislated to be the official national religion - a point that you and Destro appear to believe is known only to the two of you. No one is arguing with you on that point. The LC site that I provide makes this clear. What all other posters including myself are at odds with you and Destro is over your flight of fancy about America not being a Christian nation. That supposition is not born out in fact. Just because Christianity is not legislated to be an official government approved religion does not prove that America is not a Christian nation. America was founded by Christian settlers. America's framers were by and large Christians and church going ones at that regardless of what Destro and old Mr. Loeflin, the owner of the site he refers to, may think. I don't have a clue who "Becky at LP" is. I don't "know" her. I don't post at LP. If she played games with you, I'm sorry for that. I am not Becky. If you truly believe that America has no Christian foundation, that today's Americans are in the main a group of non-religious amorphous blobs with no religious identities, good luck to you in surviving the truth when it strikes - Presidential inaugural day when the highest officer in this country puts one hand on the N.T. Bible, when you glance at some currency, when the national anthem is sung... I'm done with you. Your naivity is too much to bear. I suspect you are quite young. That's probably why you think America is what you make it to be,history and facts on the ground not withstanding. See you. I'm not laying any bread crumbs around, so don't bother following me. I think you have found an intellectual equal and mentor in Destro. God speed.
No it doesn't and this is why you can't give us the cite. And you know this. That is why you are hiding in these genearalities and very, very, very childish personal insults and attacks. I read the article. It says that some of the founding fathers were religious. No more, no less. As such, it provides no support for what you say. In fact, it provides no support for anything. It is generalized fluff put up for students and casual visitors to the site - not a essay intended to make a point. But you know that and that is why you are again running your nasty mouth as a distraction. Why don't you try to go one hour without losing it, going completely emotional and tossing out a hate filled insult to someone. Is there one person on this site you have not insulted this way? If so, I would be curious to hear the name.
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America was a place of refuge for many persecuted Christians. The German Palatinates (Lutherans) escaping the 30 Years' War, and the Puritans and Quakers before that. There distinct Protestant denominations in America long before the Revolution. In NY were the Dutch Reformists, in the midwest the Methodists and Weslayans, the Presbyterians (from Ulster and Scotland), in PA, west and south. America invented the Baptists (in 1787 on 2 sides of my family tree, in KY and VA). Then a little later the starving Irish Catholics. Then some more Germans, this time Catholics. Then there were those crazy French Canadians (Catholics) who sailed down the Mississippi (the Cajuns). The Scandinavians were Lutheran. The Italians Catholic. Around WWI the Armenians escaping the Turks, some made it CA, who were Greek Orthodox. So many people from so many countries from the Pilgrims onward were all Christians. Up until a few decades ago, all the stores were closed on Sunday. People were not even inclined to travel on Sunday. Everyone went to church. These were real Christians, who studied and worshipped and prayed together. Not the lazy, backsliding apologists we've become today. I cannot think of one good reason to rewrite American history as being anything other than predominately Christian, but I can think of a few bad reasons.
Actually that is not my point. The religious mindset of the Americans at the time of the Revolution was not the same religious mindset of Americans today. The Christians of that time were not as the Christians of today and the secularists of that time were not as the secularists of today are. Today, a so called right wing Christian would not even shake the hand of someone in public life who declares like Thomas Jefferson did that Jesus was not the son of God, just a good man. In that time it seems most religious folk, while I am sure uncomfortable with the positions of the deists did not care what one of them like Thomas Jefferson had to say because it was his private business. America was founded by people of faith - but it was not faith specific - very much in keeping with the Freemasonic concept that anyone could be a lodge brother as long as they had a faith in some sort of deity or religion - though the Founding Fathers went beyond their Freemasonic roots to even accept atheists. So when you claim the Founding Fathers were Christians, it is like a Protestant claiming a Catholic Saint or an Orthodox Church father as his own. While the Protestant is a Christian, he bares little resemblance to the Christians of the early church. So to, American religionists on the right and the left and American secularists bare little resemblance to the first generation Americans. Would the Congress of today pass a peace treaty with Muslims saying that the USA is not a Christian nation like was done in the example posted above?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
God of Our Fathers By GEORGE F. WILL: What Allen calls Washington’s “famous gift of silence” was particularly employed regarding religion. But his behavior spoke. He would not kneel to pray, and when his pastor rebuked him for setting a bad example by leaving services before communion, Washington mended his ways in his austere manner: he stayed away from church on communion Sundays. He acknowledged Christianity’s “benign influence” on society, but no ministers were present and no prayers were uttered as he died a Stoic’s death.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I think the stores were closed on Sunday because there were blue laws in place. Some of these were put in place during the Christian revival of the mid 1800s and some came about during the labor reform that took place in the 1880s and then again after WW I. When the blue laws were rescended in the late 1960s Sunday shopping immediately came on line. I don't think it was general holiness that prevented the shopping. Were that the case, it would not be profitable to keep Wall-Mart open on Sunday today. I could be wrong, but the figures I remember never show church attendance topping about 50%. But the point isn't whether or not there are Christians in the United States, the question is whether the United States was founded as a Christian Nation. It wasn't and thet's why the effort to pass a constitutional amendment to this effect failed. That's also why the founding fathers clearly stated that this was not a Christian nation in the treaty of tripoli. That is why there is such an thing as the fist Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ..". Note that if the United states was founded as a "Christian Nation" Congress, or whoever, would have already made a law "respecting the founding of religion". The words of the fist amendment are plain on their face and 200 years of case law bears out this interpretation.
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The Magna Carta is not mentioned in the Constitution either, but its influence is obvious. So is the influence of Christian men as the signers of the Declaration of Independence. Sunday was a day of worship, before the blue laws. The blue laws are because of this belief. No one needed a law not to shop and travel on Sunday, it was a day that Christian America simply observed in worship. Do you know why there is a morning and then evening service? To allow time for people to go home, have a midday meal a few farm chores; then return to church. Midweek there was bible study. The majority of Americans went to church. That you don't see this anymore is no reason rewrite history.
Protestants do not kneel to pray, perhaps he agreed with that group. Not staying to take communion is a very personal reason between a human being and God. The Scripture says not to partake in Holy Communion unless you are spiritually prepared. Maybe he was honoring that, and not ready for whatever personal reason. You must have never read that Washington was a Christian man of prayer: "The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I wonder if anyone actually uses this "chapel"? or if the students care. Ordinarily I wouldn't care much about what this private school does except that I'm so totally sick of the PC crap.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
The Magna Carta was 1215, well after Christianity was introduced, so using Jefferson's logic, Christianity had influence to its inception and influence in the creation of statute law over common law. The common laws of the time were not very fair to the serfs, that's what made the Magna Carta so important. Thank you for continuing to make my point of the wonderful influence of Christianity on Western Civilization, this nation and the Constitution.
I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country. -- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the "Magna-Charta" here refers to the proposed United States Constitution "Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice." -- Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572. (Asa Green "was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was chaplain to congress during Washington's administration." -- Farrell Till in "The Christian Nation Myth.") "[Washington was] a total stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of another." -- John Bell, in 1779, in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 118, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church" "I know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did." -- Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, February, 1800, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572 ("Gouverneur Morris was the principal drafter of the Constitution of the United States; he was a member of the Continental Congress, a United States senator from New York, and minister to France. He accepted, to a considerable extent, the skeptical views of French Freethinkers." -- John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans.) "I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them." -- Eleanor "Nellie" Parke Custis Lewis, Martha Washington's granddaughter from a previous marriage, quoted from Sparks' Washingon, also from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 22
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That's the bottom line in all of these quotes. It is about equality and tolerance of beliefs that was so important. This is what Christianity allows. Just go to Israel if you want to see how another Democracy that has no Christianity is devoid of equality and tolerance. For example: A Jew cannot marry a non-Jew in Israel. At the time of Washington, there were many religious prejudices among the individual and distinct Christian denominations (as directly referenced in the quote above). Washington was trying to avoid all that mess, and he did.
America uses English Common law which predates Christianity - the Magna Carta is not part of the common law. The magna carta was a deal between nobles and the king on what powers he could have over them - it is not a religous inspired document of law.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
But English Common Law now includes the influence of the Magna Carta and Christianity. As I pointed out the common laws of the time Jefferson refers to were so inferior, they did not protect the average serf at all. That's why the Magna Carta was so important. And not until 1215, after Christianity had had plenty of time to influence everything. from Wikipedia about Statute Law, also used by the United States. A statute is a formal, written law of a country or state, written and enacted by its legislative authority, perhaps to then be ratified by the highest executive in the government, and finally published. Typically, statutes command, prohibit, or declare policy. Statutes are sometimes referred to as legislation or "black letter law." In many countries, published statutes are organized in topical arrangements called codes, such as the Civil Code of Quebec or the United States Code. Washington pointedly avoided the inter-denominational infighting among the various Christian groups, as the quotes you posted are evidence. And why don't you tell me what makes Israel so racist and intolerant if it is a Democracy with a rule of law? You have stated that afterall you are not a Greek Orthodox, although you certainly led many of us to believe that. So what do you believe?
Do I have to be a worshiper to defend what was done to the Orthodox peoples in by the USA? I don't understand why also you assume that if I am an Orthodox believer that means I would lie about the nature of the USA like some Protestants do? Or that I want a theocracy? Orthodoxy is against a theocracy - unlike in England where the king/queen is head of the church which is impossible under Orthodoxy or how the pope is king of the Papal States and heads his own govt in the Vatican - forbidden under Orthodoxy or how Calvinists and other Protestant churches ran there own city-states as seen in Switzerland and Germany.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That the USA was not founded on religous principles and was founded to be a secular republic. Something that pissed off the religous folk even then. "I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country." -- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the "Magna-Charta" here refers to the proposed United States Constitution
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The facts do not lie. Your chosen faith or lack of it, may be the reason you fail to see the importance of the influence of Christianity in the foundation of this nation. Orthodoxy is against a theocracy - unlike in England where the king/queen is head of the church which is impossible under Orthodoxy or how the pope is king of the Papal States and heads his own govt in the Vatican - forbidden under Orthodoxy or how Calvinists and other Protestant churches ran there own city-states as seen in Switzerland and Germany. Thanks to the American Revolution and the French Revolution monarchies are mere figure-heads today, and the Vatican has no influence over governments today. America is not a theocracy, but Christianity has played a huge part in its very inception and growth. Those Calvinist and Protestant churches who ran their own city-states in Switzerland and Germany were undoubtedly very fair, equitable, tolerant and safe places to live. Twice I have mentioned Israel as having a rule of law, a so-called Democracy, yet totally racist and intolerant. Its very laws are racist and intolerant. You have not answered my question, how that happened. I will answer it for you. Because Israel's laws are not founded in Christianity. They are influenced by the Torah, which hates anything non-Jew. Christianity makes a difference, it is that difference that makes Western Civilization and America different, in a good way; not perfect, but you cannot perfection anywhere on this planet.
That is because these were Christian men who understood that religious freedom should be available to all within our borders. Where did they get that understanding? Perhaps some history into the intense differences of opinions about the various Christian denominiations at the time would help you understand why Washington avoided taking any sides. Israel has a rule of law that is racist and intolerant. There is a difference when the laws are written by true Christians, not the Hagees and Robertsons of today.
Twice I have mentioned Israel as having a rule of law, a so-called Democracy, yet totally racist and intolerant. Its very laws are racist and intolerant Those Calvinist and Protestant churches who ran their own city-states in Switzerland and Germany were undoubtedly very fair, equitable, tolerant and safe places to live???? Except for those they burned at the stake I assume. As for Israel? I don't get your point? I don't support a theocratic state like Israel and I consider democracies a form of mob rule. Beyond that I don't get how bringing in Israel out of the blue has any bearing on this conversation.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Comments (193 - 252) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestWhat a moronic statement.
#154. To: Diana (#151)
Didn't you claim to be a Greek Orthodox, or was that just for our benefit?
#155. To: Destro (#154)
Greek Orthodox
#156. To: Destro (#154)
(Edited)
#157. To: ... (#156)
(Edited)
Also recall that true to Jefferson's fear, the Christian Taliban types tried to do exactly what Jefferson feared. For almost 80 years after the Bill of Rights was ratified the minority Christian contingent sought an amendment declaring the US a "Christian Nation". They were shot down time and time again by the founding fathers and finally gave up as the Civil War got underway.
#158. To: Diana (#155)
#159. To: Destro, bluegrass, ..., Diana (#157)
#160. To: All (#159)
Courtesy of Library of Congress archives:
#161. To: Destro (#157)
#162. To: scrapper2 (#159)
"Religion and the founding of the American Republic"
#163. To: YertleTurtle (#161)
Interesting you divide America into upper-class Deists and the great unwashed, i.e., Christians.
#164. To: Destro, All (#157)
That is why the upper crust seem to worship a different God than the great unwashed Americans and why there exists a hostility between the upper and lower crusts and maybe why there exists a mood in lower crust America that the upper crust conspires against them.
#165. To: Destro (#157)
#166. To: Destro, Scrapper2, bluegrass, robin, All (#157)
Then the Second great Awakening changed that and drove the deists underground. That is why the upper crust seem to worship a different God than the great unwashed Americans and why there exists a hostility between the upper and lower crusts and maybe why there exists a mood in lower crust America that the upper crust conspires against them.
#167. To: ... (#163)
"For example, Jefferson did not believe that prayers were answered or that God was necessarily involved with him personally"
#168. To: Ferret Mike (#106)
Mmmmmmm. Three-screams rat. -- Homer Liddy
#169. To: YertleTurtle (#161)
(Edited)
Interesting you divide America into upper-class Deists and the great unwashed, i.e., Christians.
#170. To: Diana (#165)
Destro please, things are not so black and white as they appear to you.
#171. To: ..., destro, All (#162)
Why did you post this? It does absolutely nothing advance your argument or disprove anything that was said on the other side. It simply says that there were deeply religious men -- amonst others -- in the group the we call the founding fathers. No one disputes that. The article is fluff for Jr. High School kids writing term papers. If you disagree, post the relevant portion that proves your point. Use your cut and paste function.
#172. To: scrapper2 (#171)
Who are you to criticize my Library of Congress link to archival US history material that has copies of original documents with commentary text that covers multi decades of history of what is known as America,
#173. To: ... (#172)
I counter this tactic by asking you to cut and paste the particular sentence or paragraph in the article that backs up your claim. Reading the artcile at the link you posted, I don't think you can do this.
#174. To: scrapper2 (#173)
I don't need to cut and paste - the whole text and original documents at the Library of Congress url speaks to the fact that the USA was founded by Christians, both settlers and framers of the Constitution.
#175. To: scrapper2, ... (#173)
(Edited)
#176. To: scrapper2, ... (#173)
America was founded by Christian settlers. America's framers were by and large Christians and church going ones at that regardless of what Destro and old Mr. Loeflin, the owner of the site he refers to, may think.
#177. To: robin, scrapper2, ... (#175)
Up until a few decades ago, all the stores were closed on Sunday. People were not even inclined to travel on Sunday. Everyone went to church. These were real Christians, who studied and worshipped and prayed together. Not the lazy, backsliding apologists we've become today.
#178. To: robin (#175)
Up until a few decades ago, all the stores were closed on Sunday. People were not even inclined to travel on Sunday. Everyone went to church.
#179. To: ..., scrapper2 (#178)
#180. To: Destro, ..., scrapper2 (#177)
#181. To: robin (#179)
#182. To: bluegrass (#0)
#183. To: Destro, scrapper2 (#181)
Thomas Jefferson's letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, from Monticello, February 10, 1814.
#184. To: robin, ..., scrapper2 (#179)
The Magna Carta is not mentioned in the Constitution either, but its influence is obvious. So is the influence of Christian men as the signers of the Declaration of Independence.
#185. To: Destro, scrapper2 (#184)
"[Washington was] a total stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of another." -
A Christian cannot become a citizen of Israel.
#186. To: robin, ..., scrapper2 (#183)
The Magna Carta was 1215,
#187. To: Destro, scrapper2 (#186)
(Edited)
#188. To: robin (#187)
You have stated that afterall you are not a Greek Orthodox, although you certainly led many of us to believe that.
#189. To: robin (#187)
So what do you believe?
#190. To: Destro, scrapper2 (#188)
I don't understand why also you assume that if I am an Orthodox believer that means I would lie about the nature of the USA like some Protestants do?
#191. To: Destro (#189)
#192. To: robin (#190)
Those Calvinist and Protestant churches who ran their own city-states in Switzerland and Germany were undoubtedly very fair, equitable, tolerant and safe places to live.
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