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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: College removes cross – from chapel!
Source: WND
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52646
Published: Oct 27, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-10-27 12:39:53 by bluegrass
Ping List: *New History*
Keywords: None
Views: 4694
Comments: 252

The cross from the altar area of the chapel at the College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., has been removed to ensure the space is seen as a nondenominational area, explains Melissa Engimann, assistant director for Historic Campus.

"In order to make the Wren Chapel less of a faith-specific space, and to make it more welcoming to students, faculty, staff and visitors of all faiths, the cross has been removed from the altar area," Engimann announced in an e-mail to staff.

The cross will be returned to the altar for those who wish to use it for events, services or private prayer.

The cross was in place because of the college's former association with the Anglican Church. Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906, the room will still be considered a chapel, college officials said.

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#37. To: bluegrass (#35)

You brought up Jim Crow laws and then you inadverently proved that Jim Crow and the Nazi race laws have the same source.

So why should we have a museum in DC dedicated to one group of racists over another?

Nutso logic on your part as always - a twister of words and thinking - badly done twisting I may add - I questioned why we need that holocaust museum funded by the taxpayer - then I agreed with Feret Mike that museum of the evils done by Americans (to answer your: So why should we have a museum in DC dedicated to one group of racists over another? ) would be more acceptable than a museum dedicated to the crimes committed by another nation in an episode of history America had little part in.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   16:25:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: bluegrass (#36)

Israel takes so much from America that what they do is my biz. An Israeli runs Homeland Security so it's even more my biz.

What about Saudi Arabia? You can hate them too - they are Semetic after all and also run homeland security and take much $$$ from America.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   16:27:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Ferret Mike (#22)

I just do not see the Jewish people as the monsters or monolith of a source of all human greed and intrigue

Well, then, whatcha doing here?

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-10-27   16:31:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Ferret Mike (#22)

Just kidding, BTW.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-10-27   16:33:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Destro (#33)

That's exactly the point of this article - secular republic

I think the article deals with how political correctness overtakes what should be common sense. This college has a historic association with Christianity, ergo the cross in its chapel. The US gov't did not ram a cross into this chapel and promote Christianity as the nation's favorite religion. This cross was in this chapel for how many decades with how many hundreds of students of various denominations coming into the chapel to pray to their own individual Lord, without feeling they were being brow beaten into converting to Protestantism. And now some idiot PC ( or maybe aetheist) desk jockey at W&M is using the excuse of "well this is a tax supported school now" and "well the chapel should be non-denominational because it's all the room we've got for prayer and someone (?) might get offended if we don't make this change"...puhleaze this is so transparent. How can you argue that this obvious PC ploy relates to separation of state and religion...you are better than pushing this type of limp wristed milque toast rationale, destro...

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-27   16:36:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Ferret Mike, bluegrass, christine (#22)

Example of how the problem is more complex: Mormons, (who also call non believers Goyem)

I believe they call us Gentiles, not Goyem.

And, if you support this museum in DC, do you also support the mandatory viewing of SCHINDLER'S LIST by all New Jersey public school students at the order of then Gov. Christine Todd Whitman?

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2006-10-27   16:43:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Ferret Mike (#22)

If that goddamned snake in the "gardenofEden" hadn't been Jewish, we'd still be in a state of nirvana now.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-10-27   16:47:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: scrapper2 (#41)

I think the article deals with how political correctness overtakes what should be common sense.

It's not an example of political correctness - the chapel is being designated for non denominational use - like thousands of such chapels in school and hospitals all over America including the military.

Such chapels have no outward signs of religous denomination and symbols are brought ina nd out depending on the services given.

This school long ago gave up its denominational links. W&M is not the property of you or the people - they can do whatever they like.

This is like me getting upset some Protestnat denominations ordain women while at the same time I am not a Protestant. None of my business.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-10-27   16:57:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Destro (#37)

Nutso

Enough with the ad hominem.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   17:11:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Destro (#38)

Saudi Arabia is as corrupt as Israel and America. The big difference is that a Saudi doesn't run the Federal Reserve and Homeland Security. Americans don't control the money or the Federal police. Two Jews do. Bush's life is literally in Chertoff's hands.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   17:13:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: scrapper2 (#41)

This college has a historic association with Christianity

That is exactly the problem in the minds of those that had this cross removed.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   17:14:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Destro (#44)

W&M is not the property of you or the people - they can do whatever they like.

This is like me getting upset some Protestnat denominations ordain women while at the same time I am not a Protestant. None of my business.

This is a taxpayer supported college. W&M is not private; it used to be private but not any longer. It is "our" property.

And why are you jumping all over the map with your arguments to support W&M's decision? At first you said that there should be separation between gov't and religion. Now you're claiming this is a private matter even though it says quite clearly in the article that W&M receives taxpayer (gov't) support.

"Though the college is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906..."

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-27   17:15:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: HOUNDDAWG, Ferret MIke, christine (#42)

SCHINDLER'S LIST

C'mon, doggie. That movie is 100% true fact and you know it. Hollywood doesn't lie.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   17:16:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: bluegrass (#49)

C'mon, doggie. That movie is 100% true fact and you know it. Hollywood doesn't lie.

It wasn't a lie but an omission that upset me.

Oskar Schindler bribed an official and purchased guns and trained his factory workers in their use, in case the fleeing Joymans decided to slaughter them.

This didn't make it into the film because A) much of the organized gun control movement today is funded and driven by non-Christians, particularly those in New York City, and B) it would raise the question of why Jews didn't defend themselves, but allowed one Hitler youth with an unloaded rifle to herd them into box cars?

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2006-10-27   17:21:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: HOUNDDAWG (#50)

it would raise the question of why Jews didn't defend themselves, but allowed one Hitler youth with an unloaded rifle to herd them into box cars?

A good point and one that seems to be lost when the "holocaust" is taught at the various museums. An armed populace is safer from tyranny than an unarmed populace.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   17:35:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Ferret Mike, Jethro Tull (#14)

The German Nazis used the genocide and 'ethnic cleansing' of Native Americans as one of the models to plan and execute their genocide and ethnic cleansing of those they found odious.

I would keep the museum and make the Shoah exhibit a wing. It needs exhibits showing what happened to 'New World' peoples, and to peoples in all the other corners of the world when their particular 'holocausts' happened.

The lesson that the museum teaches is an important one, it just need to be reorganized and changed to show that this is a sort of thing that has happened in different degrees at different times in human history.

To make it just cover the Shoah, it sends the false message that what the Nazis did was highly unusual, when in fact, it isn't. The museum is needed because this sort of thing will happen again if we don't use all the tools at our disposal to remember history to keep from repeating it.

Hell Mike it's going to happen again no matter how many museums are put up; you can't change human nature and human beings are warlike creatures. In fact it is happening in the Middle East, and other parts of the world that we don't hear much about.

If there is one thing I have learned these past few years, it's that people in general can and do behave like monsters.

I think your claim about the nazis using the extermination of American Indians as a model is an urban legend of sorts, as the vast majority of Indians died from diseases they had no immunity against, and there was no concrete policy carried out to exterminate Native Americans, it happened over a long period of time, an incident here, incident there, and was not an organized effort.

As long as there are people, there will be selfishness, cruelty and cowardly behavior. As this country descends further into dictatorship, look for many cowards to come crawling out of the woodwork (for instance those who rat on others in order to score brownie points with those they perceive as being the powerful ones).

Diana  posted on  2006-10-27   17:37:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Diana (#52)

Nice post, Diana. Exactly as you say.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-10-27   17:40:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Diana (#52)

there was no concrete policy carried out to exterminate Native Americans,

I think you are mistaken.

Making the Cherokees walk the Trail of Tears from the Carolinas to Oklahoma may not have been sold as racial extermination but that's pretty much what it accomplished.

Killing en masse the "praying" ie Christianized Indians of New England was pretty much the same thing.

Handing out smallpox infected blankets as Gen Amherst did was as blatant as it gets.

Massacring the families of the tribes encamped in the Palo Duro Canyon was pure genocidal behavior.

Take off those rose colored glasses and subscribing to the whitewashing of history. It's nasty.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-10-27   17:44:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Ferret Mike (#22)

Thus I refuse to make people targets based on their race, creed or ethnic background at all.

Right now in Alaska they are having the annual AFN convention that most white people and some native Alaskans dread. It's a convention where Eskimos and other Native Alaskan groups fly to Anchorage, and the PTB in this state (mostly Jewish) put on this convention for them, with lots of speakers outlining the evils of white people and all the bad things they have done to Alaska Natives.

They play it on our radio station, and a couple years ago I was listening and a woman was giving a speech, saying something like, "before the white man came, we had no alcohol to destroy our families. before the white man came, we lived by our traditional values. before the white man came..." The AFN (Alaska Federation of Natives) is more than anything an excercise is white- people bashing.

Last year I heard a bit of the tail end of it on the radio, and they were thanking the organizers, most all who had Jewish names.

The convention lasts about a week, and for a while after that the Natives have very negative feelings towards white people, even though there is a lot of intermarriage, and by nature they are one of the most peaceful people on this earth. I think it's a crime to provoke them or anyone into hatred. People already hate enough as it is.

Diana  posted on  2006-10-27   17:51:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: swarthyguy (#54)

Handing out smallpox infected blankets as Gen Amherst did was as blatant as it gets.

I cited this once and a fellow took me to task for it.

He showed me a quote from a letter that was the source of this, and otherwise there is no evidence that such a thing ever took place.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2006-10-27   18:06:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Diana, christine, Zipporah, bluegrass (#55)

"before the white man came, we had no alcohol to destroy our families. before the white man came, we lived by our traditional values. before the white man came...

"I'd like you to meet the representative who will run this trading post for the Hudson's Bay Company, Mr. Herschel Goldstein. BTW, have you ever tasted this? We call it fire water...."

There is ample evidence that the first Jews in North America were posted at HBC trading posts.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2006-10-27   18:11:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: HOUNDDAWG (#56)

I beg to differ. IMO, it's part of the whitewashing of history.

This link takes you to some of the source documents and actual statements.

Now, as to whether he personally handed them out or ordered it, fine, but there is no doubt as to his sentiments concerning them.

http://www.na tiveweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

There are links to microfiche records and biographies and historical documents including William Trent's journal from the 1760's in which he describes certain incidents. The judgement of all these is up to you.

Some quotes from Bouquet to Amherst -

"...that Vermine ... have forfeited all claim to the rights of humanity" (Bouquet to Amherst, 25 June) [149k] "I would rather chuse the liberty to kill any Savage...." (Bouquet to Amherst, 25 June) [121k] "...Measures to be taken as would Bring about the Total Extirpation of those Indian Nations" (Amherst to Sir William Johnson, Superintendent of the Northern Indian Department, 9 July) [229k] "...their Total Extirpation is scarce sufficient Attonement...." (Amherst to George Croghan, Deputy Agent for Indian Affairs, 7 August) [145k] "...put a most Effectual Stop to their very Being" (Amherst to Johnson, 27 August [292k]; emphasis in original).

In short, it's almost immaterial now, but the sentiment to exterminate is very well documented among the writings of that time.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-10-27   18:21:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Destro, Ferret Mike (#34)

BTW, is Jim Crow also the source of Israel's current marriage laws? Who cares? I don't live there. Do you get all upset women can't drive cars in Saudi Arabia? That girls get their labia sliced off in Africa?

Mind your business.

Does Israel mind it's own business? NOOOOOOOO!

Very hypocritical Destro.

Diana  posted on  2006-10-27   18:29:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: HOUNDDAWG (#42)

And, if you support this museum in DC, do you also support the mandatory viewing of SCHINDLER'S LIST by all New Jersey public school students at the order of then Gov. Christine Todd Whitman?

Please tell me you are kidding!

Diana  posted on  2006-10-27   18:34:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: swarthyguy, HOUNDDAWG, Destro, Ferret Mike, Diana (#54)

Making the Cherokees walk the Trail of Tears from the Carolinas to Oklahoma may not have been sold as racial extermination but that's pretty much what it accomplished.

Racial extermination is an old form of warfare. The European/Jewish genoplex has been engaging in it for centuries.

What's happening to Africans and West Asians/Arabs is a replay of what happened to the natives in North and South America.

See here for the playbook:

"The genocide and conquest committed by Columbus and his men against the peaceful Native people of the Caribbean were sanctioned by the above mentioned documents of the Catholic Church. These papal documents were frequently used by Europeans in the Americas to justify an very inhuman style of colonization - which dehumanized the indigenous people by regarding their territories as being "inhabited only by brute animals." - Ferret Mike

"At least five members of the expedition, including the surgeon, Marco, the ship's doctor, Bernal, and the interpreter, Louis Torres, were Jews. Torres was the first European to tread on American soil and also the first to discover the use of tobacco. He won the good-will of a Cuban chief and received from him large grants of land and many slaves as presents." -B'nai B'rith, 1926

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   18:43:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: swarthyguy (#58)

Some quotes from Bouquet to Amherst -

"...that Vermine ... have forfeited all claim to the rights of humanity" (Bouquet to Amherst, 25 June) [149k] "I would rather chuse the liberty to kill any Savage...." (Bouquet to Amherst, 25 June) [121k] "...Measures to be taken as would Bring about the Total Extirpation of those Indian Nations" (Amherst to Sir William Johnson, Superintendent of the Northern Indian Department, 9 July) [229k] "...their Total Extirpation is scarce sufficient Attonement...." (Amherst to George Croghan, Deputy Agent for Indian Affairs, 7 August) [145k] "...put a most Effectual Stop to their very Being" (Amherst to Johnson, 27 August [292k]; emphasis in original).

In short, it's almost immaterial now, but the sentiment to exterminate is very well documented among the writings of that time.

His "sentiment to exterminate" is not a point that I wished to controvert.

The operative word was "evidence".

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2006-10-27   18:56:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: swarthyguy (#54)

To: Diana

there was no concrete policy carried out to exterminate Native Americans, I think you are mistaken.

Making the Cherokees walk the Trail of Tears from the Carolinas to Oklahoma may not have been sold as racial extermination but that's pretty much what it accomplished.

Killing en masse the "praying" ie Christianized Indians of New England was pretty much the same thing.

Handing out smallpox infected blankets as Gen Amherst did was as blatant as it gets.

Massacring the families of the tribes encamped in the Palo Duro Canyon was pure genocidal behavior.

Take off those rose colored glasses and subscribing to the whitewashing of history. It's nasty.

Believe me I know history is nasty, but my point was that there was not a concerted effort to exterminate the Native Americans all at once in the way the nazis went after the Jews.

I'm not saying Indians were not exterminated here and there (also remember there were/are different tribes with totally different customs and beliefs; they were not a monolithic people), it did happen but there were separate incidents that happened under different rulers, presidents, etc, and they happened at different time periods, and some groups were spared altogether.

They were not all part of a massive, organized effort to destroy such as the "War on Terror" we now have.

Diana  posted on  2006-10-27   19:01:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: bluegrass (#25)

"Do you also support the purposeful and pointed lies about history that are enshrined in the temple?"

What temple are you talking about?

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-27   19:01:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Ferret Mike (#64)

I'll play your game if you wish.

Do you also support the purposeful and pointed lies about history that are enshrined in the Holocaust Museum in DC?

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   19:03:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Diana (#52)

"I think your claim about the Nazis using the extermination of American Indians as a model is an urban legend of sorts, as the vast majority of Indians died from diseases they had no immunity against, and there was no concrete policy carried out to exterminate Native Americans, it happened over a long period of time, an incident here, incident there, and was not an organized effort."

There was a policy to destroy Native American culture and any indigenous people who resisted at best. This policy's cornerstone is 'the Doctrine of Discovery' that denied sovereignty or recognition of non-Christian people.

To understand the connection between Christendom's principle of discovery and the laws of the United States, we need to begin by examining a papal document issued forty years before Columbus' historic voyage In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued to King Alfonso V of Portugal the bull Romanus Pontifex, declaring war against all non-Christians throughout the world, and specifically sanctioning and promoting the conquest, colonization, and exploitation of non- Christian nations and their territories.

Under various theological and legal doctrines formulated during and after the Crusades, non-Christians were considered enemies of the Catholic faith and, as such, less than human. Accordingly, in the bull of 1452, Pope Nicholas directed King Alfonso to "capture, vanquish, and subdue the saracens, pagans, and other enemies of Christ," to "put them into perpetual slavery," and "to take all their possessions and property." [Davenport: 20-26] Acting on this papal privilege, Portugal continued to traffic in African slaves, and expanded its royal dominions by making "discoveries" along the western coast of Africa, claiming those lands as Portuguese territory.

Thus, when Columbus sailed west across the Sea of Darkness in 1492 - with the express understanding that he was authorized to "take possession" of any lands he "discovered" that were "not under the dominion of any Christian rulers" - he and the Spanish sovereigns of Aragon and Castile were following an already well- established tradition of "discovery" and conquest. [Thacher:96] Indeed, after Columbus returned to Europe, Pope Alexander VI issued a papal document, the bull Inter Cetera of May 3, 1493, "granting" to Spain - at the request of Ferdinand and Isabella - the right to conquer the lands which Columbus had already found, as well as any lands which Spain might "discover" in the future.

In the Inter Cetera document, Pope Alexander stated his desire that the "discovered" people be "subjugated and brought to the faith itself." [Davenport:61] By this means, said the pope, the "Christian Empire" would be propagated. [Thacher:127] When Portugal protested this concession to Spain, Pope Alexander stipulated in a subsequent bull - issued May 4, 1493 - that Spain must not attempt to establish its dominion over lands which had already "come into the possession of any Christian lords." [Davenport:68] Then, to placate the two rival monarchs, the pope drew a line of demarcation between the two poles, giving Spain rights of conquest and dominion over one side of the globe, and Portugal over the other.

http://ili.nativeweb.org/sdrm_art. html

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-27   19:09:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Ferret Mike (#66)

non-Christians were considered enemies of the Catholic faith and, as such, less than human.

I wonder what part of the Old Testament the Catholics got that from?

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-10-27   19:12:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Diana (#60)

Please tell me you are kidding!

No, before Christie was elevated to the job of EPA head she was the governor of NJ, and she ordered that all PS students would view the film to make sure they "never forget" and to make sure that it "never happens again." The message? "But for timely intervention every kid is a potential Nazi!"

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2006-10-27   19:20:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Ferret Mike (#66)

Those naughty, naughty catholics....

When the going gets weird the weird turn pro. - Hunter S Thompson

Dakmar  posted on  2006-10-27   19:26:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: bluegrass (#65) (Edited)

"I'll play your game if you wish.

Do you also support the purposeful and pointed lies about history that are enshrined in the Holocaust Museum in DC?"

Dude, I just walked in the door a minute ago and yours' was the first post I read and you are talking about a temple, something Jewish people call their buildings, why don't you at ease the suspicion and sarcasm.

It is a trait you have that does not serve you well. I figured out what you meant as I read down, but I resist the impulse to change posts after I make them as someone might be answering them already.

I have not been to the museum yet so I can't talk specifics. If you are again asking whether I believe the Nazis systematically murdered innocent men women and children, yes they did.

I also see no point to Holocaust denial either. I am absolutely against the death penalty, and the death penalty for a whole people is the most repugnant thing one group can impose on another.

You speak of dishonesty in the demographics, I see holocaust deniers playing games like taking photographs done to demonstrate how parachute harnesses were used in high altitude human guinea pig experiments and claiming these photos taken by the prosecution at Nuremberg were proof that these experiments were lies because American harnesses were in these demonstration pictures, not German ones. Debunkers of the Shoah claim they are German photos, they actually were taken by Allied photographers preparing material to explain and demonstrate what these doctors were doing when they experimented on people.

American harnesses are very unique, I know as a former paratrooper.

You condemn the Shoah based on what you claim is a vested interest in fabrication and exaggeration. That coin has two sides. Those denying that the Shoah is history have axes of their own to grind and a vested interest in exaggerating in the other direction.

I see no real point in changing the record of history unless it is done by a third party that starts with no conclusion and examines the record and evidence remaining and ultimately reach the conclusion the Shoah was a hoax.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-27   19:30:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: bluegrass (#67)

"I wonder what part of the Old Testament the Catholics got that from?"

Good question. As someone profoundly glad I am not Catholic who was inflicted with that faith growing up -- I have not much sympathy nor love for that organization. I don't have much love for organized religion anyway, but as far as the Catholic Church goes, familiarity breed contempt, I know it so well wild horses couldn't drag me to another Mass.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-27   19:33:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Ferret Mike, scrapper2, bluegrass (#66)

Thus, when Columbus sailed west across the Sea of Darkness in 1492 - with the express understanding that he was authorized to "take possession" of any lands he "discovered" that were "not under the dominion of any Christian rulers" - he and the Spanish sovereigns of Aragon and Castile were following an already well- established tradition of "discovery" and conquest. [Thacher:96] Indeed, after Columbus returned to Europe, Pope Alexander VI issued a papal document, the bull Inter Cetera of May 3, 1493, "granting" to Spain - at the request of Ferdinand and Isabella - the right to conquer the lands which Columbus had already found, as well as any lands which Spain might "discover" in the future.

There is loads and loads of documentation such as this about all the horrific things Europeans have done. Does this imply that Europeans are the cruelest and most violent of all people? Or could it be that there is more material written, especially in recent decades, about the viciousness and cruelty which one would now think is inherent only in white people?

I still maintain that what happened to the peoples in the Americas happened over a period of time, in various locations, under various rulers and policies. It was not as concentrated an effort as Nazi policy against Jews. It was a take-over of this land, and the people already here for the most part were displaced by disease and murder. So how does that reconcile with the OT where God tells the Jewish people to kill all Caananites when they arrived in the promised land? Any thoughts on that?

So since there is so much literature to be found, does this mean white people are responsible for 90% of the misery in this world? Or could it mean that there is an effort to collect as much documentation as possible to put in peoples' minds that white people are demons in disguise?

There has been an on-going war in Sudan with Arabs against the Blacks in the south of that country, but we haven't heard a whole lot about that until recently when it became fashionable to demonize Arabs. And remember, much of what you read anymore has an agenda, and the "facts" don't always add up.

Oh, and while Russia owned Alaska, they didn't treat the Eskimos badly, in fact part of their treaty for selling Alaska to the US was to state that the Eskimos were to be left alone. The US did not do this though, they sent them to boarding schools and made them speak English, but they haven't meddled that way in a long time. Now they have special rights such as free medical care, land, and that conference is put on for them once a year in an attempt to urge them to hate white people. However that won't work because as I said they are very gentle people and there are many diluted Eskimos from all the intermarriages in these rural areas. It's difficult to hate the white part of one's own child for instance.

Diana  posted on  2006-10-27   19:34:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Diana (#72) (Edited)

"There is loads and loads of documentation such as this about all the horrific things Europeans have done. Does this imply that Europeans are the cruelest and most violent of all people?"

No my dear, just people, with the same amount of good and bad inherent to them as any people. Sometimes a culture exaggerates and intensifies the worst in a people, but no one demographic group is better or worse as human beings than any other.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-10-27   19:37:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Diana (#72)

Some of the Indian tribes were composed of horrendous savages. They slaughtered without regard to age or sex -- tortured people to death, bashed babies' brains out against rocks. This is what they did to other tribes.

The Pawnee, for example, allied themselves with the white man to save themselves from the more savage tribes.

Some of the tribes deserved to be exterminated.

"We become what we behold. We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." -- Marshall McLuhan, after Alexander Pope and William Blake.

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-10-27   19:38:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Diana, Ferret Mike (#66)

there was no concrete policy carried out to exterminate Native Americans, it happened over a long period of time,

There was always a plan to drive off native americans, or at least subjugate them. Heck, Diana, many of the Cherokee were landholders, gentleman planters even until gold was discovered in them thar hills of Georgia. Early Victorian Era at best.

!

When the going gets weird the weird turn pro. - Hunter S Thompson

Dakmar  posted on  2006-10-27   19:39:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: YertleTurtle (#74)

Some of the tribes deserved to be exterminated.

Remind me never to entrust my followers to the likes of you.

When the going gets weird the weird turn pro. - Hunter S Thompson

Dakmar  posted on  2006-10-27   19:41:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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