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Title: Rumsfeld said Flight 93 shot down (video)
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URL Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0v0_HDwg84&mode=related&search
Published: Oct 30, 2006
Author: Rumsfeld
Post Date: 2006-10-30 12:28:18 by RickyJ
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Keywords: None
Views: 613
Comments: 47
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#8. To: Neil McIver (#7)
(Edited)
Something definitely crashed, whether it was flight 93 or not I do not know. I should have said that the official crash site is only part of the wreckage of whatever plane that crashed. Other parts of the plane were found miles away from where they claim the plane nose dived into the ground.
God is always good! Ricky Rudeness is never becoming... If you reread my previous post, I advanced no "absurd" theories of any kind. Rational and realistic thinking finds no other conclusion than that offered by many people. Engines...I assume you do know that the engines are designed and engineered to fall off when under certain stress condidtions.
The government's theory is an absurd theory. They are the one's who claim the engines bounced 1/2 mile away from the crash scene.
God is always good! Okay, I read your subsequent post and gathered that must have been your meaning.
That's news to me. It's hard for me to fathom engineers making that a design priority, particularly considering the hazard of having only one wing mounted engine drop off.
misspoken in the same way rummy said on more than one occasion that a missile, not a jetliner, hit the pentagon.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30682 Reversing all previous statements, The Washington Envoy to Canada, Paul Cellucci told his Canadian audience that a Canadian general at NORAD scrambled military jets under orders from Bush to shoot down flight 93 Read into the article below for the following section: "He compared the situation to one that occurred during the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the U.S. He noted that it was a Canadian general at Norad who scrambled military jets under orders from Bush to shoot down a hijacked commercial aircraft headed for Washington." Cellucci's statement thus reverses all of Washington's previous statements about Flight 93. (Other than the two times that Rumsfeld admitted that Flight 93 was shot down..)
If you were to see the skinny engine mounts holding the engine you would die of fright. They are indeed designed to fall off rather than to impact or tear off the wing. Aviation engineering is one of the most precise and forward thinking fields today. Indeed it is a very high priority of design to ENSURE the engine falls off under certain stresses. Finding a engine miles away from a crash site is nothing new.
Here is short excerpt.... ">>The usual design for a wing-mounted engine intentionally puts the weak
You do not get an eight mile debris field with a crash. Period. End of story.
If I recall the Pan Am Lockerbie had a crash field in excess of 20 miles.
A 20 mi. debris field makes sense (Pan Am Lockerbie) b/c an explosion caused the crash. We've been told flight 93 did a nose dive straight down at 500 +/- MPH.
Aircraft engines are among the heaviest parts of aircraft so in some crash situations, I can see value in having them break away on impact. However, breaking away during flight, at least with wingmounted engines, would hardly be a saftey measure in my estimation, as if only one broke away, the aircraft would become rather unbalanced. I don't see any advantage to dropping an engine over keeping it on while in flight, even if it was on fire as fuel can be cut and extinguishers applied. I've got a pilots license, and the SOP for crash landings was, if you don't have a clear landing space, try to take the plane between 2 trees or phone polls with the expressed intent of tearing off the wings. That way the enclosed fuel is largely dumped away from the passenger cabin reducing risk of burning to death or serious injury. Many of those killed in aircraft crashes are killed by fire. I think it would be better to have the wings ripped off. Please pardon my skepticism. I do recall a few DC-10 crashes from the 80's that involved engines dropping off, but my impression was they didn't fall off by design. I think I remember another case more recently, within the last 10 years or so in which a plane landed safely, but that there were no abnormal stresses involved. I don't remember hearing any other cases of engines falling off prior to crashes, and certainly none by design.
Airplanes come apart from stress. To find a hole in the ground that fit exactly the shape of the aircraft would never happen. That is a false assumption. I have witnessed one large four engine acft crash, nearly straight down, there were engines and parts all over the place. Trying to imagine everything being in its original configuration is futile, it does not happen.
I assume you are speaking of a single engine acft???? If you have never seen or experienced an engine tearing itself up or running away, you would be praying it would drop off. Jet engines are slung down and ahead of the wings for a purpose, falling off is part of the purpose.
There's no talking to the conspiracy-minded. Everything to due to someone. Illumati, Masons, Zionists, blood-drinking shapeshifter reptilian aliens from space...it doesn't matter. Someone did it.
"We become what we behold. We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." -- Marshall McLuhan, after Alexander Pope and William Blake.
This is not the same thing as saying that they are designed to fall off under certain stresses, as though it's better to not have an engine on the wing than to have one. This is saying that, IF "something happens that causes the mount to break" that it would break off a certain way so as to minimize damage. Any time you have something mounted with more than one mount, one will be stronger than the other. In this case, the decided it's advantageous to make the rear one weaker. Again, I think it's generally better to have a dead wing engine stay attached to the plane than to have it drop off. The plane will be easier to control.
The designers and engineers would not agree.
Airplanes come apart from stress. To find a hole in the ground that fit exactly the shape of the aircraft would never happen. That is a false assumption. You're obviously not discussing the matter sincerely. The Lockerbie crash was a plane that exploded and broke up at high altitude. No one is looking for a clay mold of an airplane at the 93 crash site.
With die-hard conspiracy theorist like you, I would agree, no amount of reasoning will change your very closed mind. But I think that all initial believers of the government conspiracy theory are not beyond reaching, or otherwise I wouldn't even attempt to do so.
God is always good! I'll wait for an authoritative source to state otherwise. I'll qualify this with a description or list of the particular stresses which are intended to result in engine breakaway. Applying this to the topic at hand, you're suggesting that 93 experienced some of these stresses that resulted in engine breakaway. Do you maintain that a cockpit fight would be one of them?
Why be personal like ricky???? Why not call any pilot friend that flies jumbo jets and ask him, get it first hand. Quicker, google will bring you tons of info and show pictures, its all there to see and read.
Neil... You like ricky digress and become personal. I made no "absurd theories" about the flight and I have no information about what happened aboard the acft other than what we all know. I am not interested in any theories, only what is realistic and rational about an accident.
Nothing personal, that's just candid observiation. Obviously... Ricky mentions an 8 mile debris field and you make some comment about there not being airplane shaped holes in the ground as though a whole plane impacting the ground would naturally make an 8 mile debris field. Candid observation: There's no sincerity in that response.
I am not interested in any theories, only what is realistic and rational about an accident. Then what stresses, in particular, would realistically and rationally cause the engines of flight 93 to break away on 911 while in flight? Or otherwise cause an 8 mile debris field?
By calling it an "accident" you are indeed advancing a theory. A strange theory indeed, not even the government is claiming it was an accident.
God is always good! I'll volunteer one realistic and rational possibility that I can think of, and that's flight 93 being struck by an anti-aircraft missle. Why not? It's very plausible that 93 was known to be hijacked and F-16's were on to it and shot it down. It would explain why the FBI refuses to release the last 3 minutes of cockpit recordings on 93. Politically, it's more desirable to have everyone think of the passengers as heros and without any divisive public controversy over whether it was proper to shoot down flight 93. About whether, just maybe, the passengers would have been successful in taking the plane back and safely landing it. It explains the wide debris field quite nicely. Is there a more rational explanation?
Refresh my memory of where I called it an accident??? It was a crash.
The cockpit voice recorder and I believe the black box also indicated that the hijacker was putting the acft thru unusual attitudes trying to dislodge the people that were trying to take over.
Cynicom posted on 2006-10-30 15:21:10 ET Reply Trace Private Reply God is always good! OKAY, my error... Perhaps you might like to read this one, google is replete with such... British Overseas Airline Company Flight 712 "For the passengers who had a view out of the port windows aboard BOAC Flight 712 to Zurich, enroute to Sydney, Australia, it must have seemed that their worst nightmares had come true. One and a half minutes after takeoff on the clear and sunny afternoon of 8 April 1968, the no.2 engine of the Boeing 707 broke away from its mounting pylon and fell, tumbling in flames, over Hounslow, on the fringe of Heathrow Airport..."
Yes, I've heard that before. And you think this would have made the engines break off? Only if the plane was designed horribly would it be even possible for any pilot to make the engines break off simply by working the control yoke.
I dont have any opinion on that. The experts would have written it in their reports. Rumsfeld is about my age, he misspoke and I misspoke calling it an accident instead of a crash.
Recall a few years ago, an Airbus I believe, that part of the stabilizer fell off because the co pilot exceeded its stress factor.
If that's the aircraft that went down off the coast of California, which I believe was an airbus, I think it lost an elevator. In that incident, the pilots were experiencing some control difficulty for a while and were trying to diagnose/service it, before deciding to go for an emergency landing. As the excuted the checklist for landing, they at one point lowered the flaps, which has the side effect of altering the aircraft pitch. This is normally compensated for by additional elevator control, and the additional stress on the elevator caused it to separate from the aircraft, which then caused the crash. That's all from memory. If that's the incident you refer to, it involved an elevator control that was already damaged, not one in normal operation.
The one I had in mind was at NYC.
Oh... that one. That happened just a few months after 911. Plane took off and then, mysteriously, the rudder fell off. NTSB decided that the aircraft flew into a vortex caused by another airliner that passed by that way 2 minutes prior, and the extra stresses made the airline fall apart. Vortexes are basically horizonal tornados that trail behind all fixed wing aircraft, initiated by the natural downdraft of air immediately behind the wings. The center of the vortexes are, more or less, the wingtips. (For the benefit of those reading along). I personally think that explanation was inadequate, and I recall an airline pilot saying that if 2 minute old vortexes brought down that airliner, all airlines should be grounded. What makes far more sense, and matches witnesses who claimed it was on fire before it crashed, was a shoe bomber or some other kind of bomb. This was before that Reid guy was caught and before shoe bombing was really discovered. Seemed to me the government needed badly to protect their image as good handlers of security just months after 911 when they were at peak alert. No, I never did buy the vortex theory on that one. I'm not sure a missing rudder would bring a plane down anyway. It's not nearly as critical as a missing elevator. Certainly make landing in any crosswind difficult or impossible, but it should still fly.
This is an informal discussion concerning gear up landings, nothing is mentioned about in flight stresses,and there is alot disagreement that follows. Funny - in my aerospace engineering class, nobody mentioned designing engine struts to fail in flight. Always thought the idea was to keep em on the wings. Reeks of slective evidence, not germane to the actual subject.
That's what that conspircy nut Gorden Liddy says.
Unanswered questions; We all know the inspiring story of Flight 93, of the heroic passengers who forced the hijacked plane to the ground, sacrificing themselves to save the lives of others. The only trouble is: it may simply not be true. JOHN CARLIN reports from Shanksville, Pennsylvania.(Features) From: The Independent (London, England) | Date: August 13, 2002 | Author: Carlin, John | More results for: flight 93 conspiracy - Snip if conspiracy theories flourish, it is in large part because of the authorities' failure to address head-on questions centring on the following four conundrums. 1. The wide displacement of the plane's debris, one explanation for which might be an explosion of some sort aboard prior to the crash. Letters - Flight 93 was carrying 7,500 pounds of mail to California - and other papers from the plane were found eight miles (13km) away from the scene of the crash. A sector of one engine weighing one ton was found 2,000 yards away. This was the single heaviest piece recovered from the crash, and the biggest, apart from a piece of fuselage the size of a dining-room table. The rest of the plane, consistent with an impact calculated to have occurred at 500mph, disintegrated into pieces no bigger than two inches long. Other remains of the plane were found two miles away near a town called Indian Lake. All of these facts, widely disseminated, were confirmed by the coroner Wally Miller. 2. The location of US Air Force jets, which might or might not have been close enough to fire a missile at the hijacked plane. Live news media reports on the morning of 11 September conflict with a number of official statements issued later. What the government acknowledges is that the first fighters with the mission to intercept took off at 8.52am; that another set of fighters took off from Andrews Air Force base near Washington at 9.35am - precisely the time that Flight 93 turned almost 180 degrees off course towards Washington and the hijacker pilot was heard by air- traffic controllers to say that there was "a bomb aboard". Flight 93, whose menacing trajectory was made known by the broadcast media almost immediately, did not go down for another 31 minutes. Apart from the logical conclusion that at least one Air Force F-16 - 125 miles away in Washington at 9.40am, meaning 10 minutes away from Flight 93 (or less if it flew at supersonic speed) - should have reached the fourth of the "flying bombs" well before 10.06am, there is this evidence from a federal flight controller published a few days later in a newspaper in New Hampshire: that an F- 16 had been "in hot pursuit" of the hijacked United jet and "must have seen the whole thing". Also, there was one brief report on CBS television before the crash that two F-16 fighters were tailing Flight 93. Vice-President Dick Cheney acknowledged five days later that President Bush had authorised the Air Force pilots to shoot down hijacked commercial aircraft. 3. One telephone call from the doomed plane whose contents do not entirely tally with the hero legend and which is accordingly omitted in the Independence Day-type dramas favoured by the US media. The Associated Press news service reported on 11 September that eight minutes before the crash, a frantic male passenger called the 911 emergency number. He told the operator, named Glen Cramer, that he had locked himself inside one of the plane's toilets. Cramer told the AP, in a report that was widely broadcast on 11 September, that the passenger had spoken for one minute. "We're being hijacked, we're being hijacked!" the man screamed down his mobile phone. "We confirmed that with him several times," Cramer said, "and we asked him to repeat what he said. He was very distraught. He said he believed the plane was going down. He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, but he didn't know where. And then we lost contact with him." According to the information that has been made known, this was the last of the various phone calls made from the aeroplane. No more calls were received from the plane in the eight minutes that remained after the man in the toilet said that he had heard an explosion. 4. Eyewitness accounts of a "mystery plane" that flew low over the Flight 93 crash site shortly after impact. Lee Purbaugh is one of at least half a dozen named individuals who have reported seeing a second plane flying low and in erratic patterns, not much above treetop level, over the crash site within minutes of the United flight crashing. They describe the plane as a small, white jet with rear engines and no discernible markings. Purbaugh, who served three years in the US Navy, said he did not believe it was a military plane. If it indeed was not, one suggestion made in the internet discussion groups is that US Customs uses planes with these characteristics to interdict aerial drug shipments. Either way, the presence of the mystery jet remains a puzzle. - Snip
I've not ever heard any proposal that 93 crashed someplace other than where officially claimed.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#9. To: RickyJ (#6)
Take a course in physics and then get back to me with your absurd theories.
#10. To: Cynicom (#9)
(Edited)
If you reread my previous post, I advanced no "absurd" theories of any kind.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#11. To: RickyJ (#8)
I should have said that the official crash site is only part of the wreckage of whatever plane that crashed. Other parts of the plane including the engines were found miles away from where they claim the plane nose dived into the ground.
#12. To: Cynicom (#9)
Engines...I assume you do know that the engines are designed and engineered to fall off when under certain stress condidtions.
#13. To: RickyJ, robin (#4)
Misspoken my ass!
#14. To: RickyJ, christine (#0)
(Edited)
#15. To: Neil McIver (#12)
That's news to me.
#16. To: Neil McIver (#12)
That's news to me.
point in the mount at the rear of the engine. This way, if something happens that causes the mount to break, it'll break at the rear. The engine then rotates up around the front mount, breaking it too, and the residual thrust carries the engine up, over the wing, and out of harm's way. (The trajectory is also designed to avoid the horizontal stabilizers.)"
#17. To: RickyJ (#0)
Of course it was shot down.
#18. To: lodwick (#17)
You do not get an eight mile debris field with a crash.
#19. To: Cynicom (#18)
(Edited)
#20. To: Cynicom (#15)
They are indeed designed to fall off rather than to impact or tear off the wing.
Indeed it is a very high priority of design to ENSURE the engine falls off under certain stresses. Finding a engine miles away from a crash site is nothing new.
#21. To: Jethro Tull (#19)
(Edited)
We've been told flight 93 did a nose straight down at 500 +/- MPH.
#22. To: Neil McIver (#20)
I've got a pilots license,
#23. To: Cynicom (#15)
Finding a engine miles away from a crash site is nothing new.
#24. To: Cynicom (#16)
The usual design for a wing-mounted engine intentionally puts the weak point in the mount at the rear of the engine. This way, if something happens that causes the mount to break, it'll break at the rear. The engine then rotates up around the front mount, breaking it too, and the residual thrust carries the engine up, over the wing, and out of harm's way. (The trajectory is also designed to avoid the horizontal stabilizers.)"
#25. To: Neil McIver (#24)
Again, I think it's generally better to have a dead wing engine stay attached to the plane than to have it drop off. The plane will be easier to control.
#26. To: Cynicom (#21)
#27. To: YertleTurtle (#23)
There's no talking to the conspiracy-minded.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#28. To: Cynicom (#25)
The designers and engineers would not agree.
#29. To: Neil McIver (#26)
You're obviously not discussing the matter sincerely.
#30. To: Neil McIver (#28)
Do you maintain that a cockpit fight would be one of them?
#31. To: Cynicom (#29)
Why be personal like ricky????
#32. To: Cynicom (#30)
#33. To: Cynicom (#30)
I am not interested in any theories, only what is realistic and rational about an accident.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#34. To: All (#32)
Then what stresses, in particular, would realistically and rationally cause the engines of flight 93 to break away on 911 while in flight? Or otherwise cause an 8 mile debris field?
#35. To: RickyJ (#33)
By calling it an "accident" you are indeed advancing a theory.
#36. To: Neil McIver (#32)
(Edited)
Then what stresses, in particular, would realistically and rationally cause the engines of flight 93 to break away on 911 while in flight?
#37. To: Cynicom (#35)
(Edited)
Refresh my memory of where I called it an accident???
I am not interested in any theories, only what is realistic and rational about an accident.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#38. To: All (#35)
Refresh my memory of where I called it an accident??? It was a crash.
#39. To: Cynicom (#36)
The cockpit voice recorder and I believe the black box also indicated that the hijacker was putting the acft thru unusual attitudes trying to dislodge the people that were trying to take over.
#40. To: Neil McIver (#39)
And you think this would have made the engines break off?
#41. To: Neil McIver (#39)
Only if the plane was designed horribly would it be even possible for any pilot to make the engines break off simply by working the control yoke.
#42. To: Cynicom (#41)
Recall a few years ago, an Airbus I believe, that part of the stabilizer fell off because the co pilot exceeded its stress factor.
#43. To: Neil McIver (#42)
Recall a few years ago, an Airbus I believe, that part of the stabilizer fell off because the co pilot exceeded its stress factor.
#44. To: Cynicom (#43)
The one I had in mind was at NYC.
#45. To: Neil McIver (#20)
http://yarchive.net/air/airliners/engine_departure.html
#46. To: Neil McIver (#34)
I can think of, and that's flight 93 being struck by an anti-aircraft missle.
#47. To: Cynicom (#21)
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