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Title: Haggard: 'I am a deceiver and a liar' [Haggard Cons Goobers Into Forgiving Him in Less Than 24 Hours]
Source:
LA Times
URL Source: http://www.latimes.com/la-na-haggard6nov06,0,1687759,print.story
Published: Nov 6, 2006
Author: Stephanie Simon
Post Date: 2006-11-06 00:54:41 by Morgana le Fay
Keywords: None
Views: 1066
Comments: 82
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. -- In the hush of a Sunday morning, 9,000 believers grieved, struggled and forgave as their pastor, the Rev. Ted Haggard, confessed his sins. "I am a deceiver and a liar," Haggard told his followers in a letter read from the pulpit of New Life Church by one of his spiritual mentors. "There's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life." Men rubbed at their eyes. Women clung to one another. A grandfather hugged his baby grandson. Haggard had founded this church in his basement. He had grown it to a congregation of 14,000. He had guided them to God and helped them triumph over sin, and he had done it always with a smile, ever exuberant, ever strong. They wept to hear what he'd been hiding. "For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom," Haggard wrote. "Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach." A male prostitute in Denver came forward last week claiming that Haggard had visited his apartment almost monthly over the past three years for sex and drugs. Haggard at first denied it. Then he said he bought meth from the man, but threw it away. On Sunday, he said this: "The accusations that have been leveled against me are not all true, but enough of them are true that I have been appropriately and lovingly removed from ministry." Having resigned the presidency of the National Association of Evangelicals and been dismissed as senior pastor of New Life, Haggard said he and his wife, Gayle, "need to be gone for a while." He pledged to put himself under the guidance of several pastors who will help him work toward restoration. "Please forgive me," he wrote. "I am so embarrassed and ashamed.... I am a sinner. I have fallen." Then the Rev. Larry Stockstill, a Louisiana pastor, read aloud a short letter from Gayle Haggard. She said her heart was broken, but she promised to stand by her husband. "For those of you who have been concerned that my marriage was so perfect I could not possibly relate to the women who are facing great difficulties, know that this will never again be the case," she wrote, evoking a ripple of laughter. "My test has begun; watch me. I will try to prove myself faithful." The congregation rose as one. For a long minute, they stood, applauding, hugging, sniffling. Interim senior pastor Ross Parsley bounded to the podium. "Listen," he said, "we all feel worse than we did a week ago. But we were worse off a week ago. Today, we all are more obedient, more repentant, more transparent than we've been in a long time." Here and there in the vast sanctuary, members of Haggard's congregation called out: "Amen." Afterward, in the lobby, many worshipers echoed Parsley's words. Some were angry at Pastor Ted; many were bewildered. But all said that their faith was not shaken; it was renewed. They would hold fast to all Haggard had taught them over the years, including his preaching that homosexual behavior is an affront to God. "He believes that what he taught us is true," said Carol Groesbeck, 61. "I don't think there's anything that needs to be re-evaluated," put in her husband, Jim, 61, an elder at New Life. "We know what we believe, but it's difficult to live that out. That's not just Ted's struggle. It's our struggle." Michelle Gatson, 37, said she felt reinvigorated by the service after a week that left her so spent, all she wanted to do was "be lying on the floor at home, crying." A member of the choir, she said she found healing in the songs of praise -- praise not for any man, but for God. "I love my pastor," she said. "But I'm glad I didn't put my faith in him. He's human." Added Ian Kallenbach, 26: "I hope he can deal with his demons." Stockstill -- who has been the Haggards' personal pastor for years -- said he saw only relief in Ted Haggard's face when he informed him on Saturday that he was being removed from his position at New Life. Haggard had been struggling for three years to balance his duties as pastor with the high-profile role as head of the evangelical association -- a job that raised his political profile and got him invited to the Oval Office and in on conference calls with the White House. Haggard had tried to carve out time to reflect and to write his books by secluding himself now and then in a Denver hotel. That is apparently when he first contacted the prostitute, Mike Jones, who advertised as a masseur in gay magazines. Haggard alluded to this period in his letter, saying that his pride had prevented him from seeking counseling; he hadn't wanted to disappoint those who loved him. "When I stopped communicating about my problems," he wrote, "the darkness increased and finally dominated me."
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#7. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#2)
According to the article, he's no longer a pastor or president with the church, so that shouldn't be an issue. The basic truth within christianity is that all of us have failed and are prone to continuing to do so, and what's needed is repentence and humility with regard to our failings. Completely separate from that is accountability in positions of church leadership. Only God knows the heart of Haggarty, but on it's face it appears he was humble enough to admit his failings, albeit after initially denying the accusations, and also graciously accept his complete demotion within the church. From a christian perspective, that's all that can be reasonably asked for. I agree churches should not be tax exempt, but they are not businesses either (real churches, anyway). They should be treated the same as any free association of people. Like any private club. Legally speaking, requiring people to forfeit their speech & press rights in order to exercise their religious rights doesn't wash, so individual people could hardly be required to not bring signs and t-shirts into a church. I'm assuming they are not turning away people who might bring signs for an opposing candidate. But current civil law aside, churches should have the moral right to endorse candidates freely, but the vast majority of them have chosen 503 status which makes them take orders from the IRS first instead of God. No church should be 501 c3. Perhaps you know that Jesus says some churches do or would make him do exactly that. Mentioned in Rev, chapter 3 I think. (Some say the letters to the seven churches, in which Jesus makes this comment about one of them, is actually refering to 7 eras of the christian church).
Mark my words Neil, the guy will be back in the pulpit. His own parishners will bring him back. It's today's Jimmy Swaggart.
Why this douchebag is still preaching is beyond me, and what's worse is that now that the jackass is forgiven, he'll be right back at fleecing the flock.
More money will be what is needed to save him from himself right??? This is exactly why every church should be taxed, and every church treated like the business is REALLY is. The business of religion isn't about saving people, it's about more wealth confiscation.
Today the Democrats had some blowhole in a church and every single one of the people in the audience had Harold Ford's name on a sign that says "For U.S. Senate."
Jesus Christ would vomit if he saw what was happening in these churces.
#8. To: Neil McIver (#7)
 | What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?. |
#9. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#8) (Edited)
I don't even pretend to understand or in anyway support these cult type movements, religious or otherwise, but it is their (the groups) choice. I feel no need to save them from themselves. What generally burns me though, is that "they" often think that they need (spread the word) to save me from myself. Richard W.
His own parishners will bring him back.
#10. To: Morgana le Fay (#0)
Stand by your man.
Gayle Haggard. She said her heart was broken, but she promised to stand by her husband.
I've already said too much.
#11. To: MUDDOG (#10)
She married and lived with a gay guy. Just how bright can this woman be? Richard W.
Stand by your man.
#12. To: Arete (#11)
Gayle Haggard, do you know where your husband's pecker's been?
I've already said too much.
#13. To: Morgana le Fay (#0)
What a bunch of suckers. It reminds me of what Eli Wallach's Mexican bandito character in The Magnificent Seven says about the villagers: "If God did not mean them to be shorn, he would not have made them sheep."
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#14. To: Neil McIver, arete, muddog, morgana le fay, TommyTheMadArtist, mehitable (#7) (Edited)
Yeah, that's all well and good, but the point is this is a war mongering, judgmental, methamphetamine user, gay-basher, head of 30 million "believers, at the top of the fundamentalist christian power grid looking to salvage his multimillion dollar lifestyle. I think the quasi admission/repentence ala the "alcoholic" Foley is a quickly put together PR stunt to keep the bucks rollin' rollin' rollin'. True introspection takes a bit longer than a quickie weekend, dontcha think? In other words, don't get suckered by this con job.
All men die. Not all men truly live. Live for something, rather than die for nothing.
#15. To: angle (#14)
In other words, don't get suckered by this con job. Good analysis, I agree.
I think the quasi admission/repentence ala the "alcoholic" Foley is a quickly put together PR stunt to keep the bucks roling rollin rollin. True introspection takes a bit longer than a quickie weekend, dontcha think?
#16. To: angle (#14)
AMEN, Brothah - Preach it louder, the dummies can't hear you!!!!
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#17. To: angle (#14) (Edited)
Not at all. All examples, large and small, of human failings, are proof that the devil is active and the further need to defend against his evil work. Just about anything goes cause at the end of the day, it all promotes the need for more religion and activism. You can't escape the appeal of always being able to avoid personal responsibility and being able to blame it on powerful demonic influences. Zealots love saving the fallen and misguided. Richard W.
True introspection takes a bit longer than a quickie weekend, dontcha think?
#18. To: Arete (#17)
Defending against "his" evil work takes money, lots of it. And poor Mrs Haggard and her children. They'll need lots of money for prayers and therapy and food. You can't expect them to eat fast food after all this upset. And Pastor Haggard, why he's the victim here. I don't understand why these meanies don't see that. Oh, that's right, it's the "devil".
All men die. Not all men truly live. Live for something, rather than die for nothing.
#19. To: angle (#18)
The debbil made him shove all those strange substances up his orifices....
Oh, that's right, it's the "devil".
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#20. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#2)
The guy is NOT 'still preaching'...........and you seem to have a problem with 'forgiveness'. You also seem to have a perverse idea of where Jesus Christ would go or what he would think--as I recall, all thru the Gospels (that's Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) He tells the Pharisees and scribes that he seeks out SINNERS because the 'perfect' ones don't need him--I believe he used the case of a physician going to see the ill people because the healthy don't need a physician. However, He didn't have a problem calling some people hypocrits, nor ejecting money changers from the Temple. And while I don't attend a 'church', I do not want their religious services taxed. Anything they do, auxiliary-wise, though I don't have a problem with taxing. FOr instance, a church that has an elementary school program.......tuitition and any other form of income should be taxed IMO.
#21. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#8)
And why should this bother you so........if God forgives the man, and 'his' own parisheners do and have him come back? Do you believe he should answer to you? To them? To God?........or you prefer he kill himself or ?
Mark my words Neil, the guy will be back in the pulpit. His own parishners will bring him back. It's today's Jimmy Swaggart.
#22. To: angle (#14)
I couldn't find anything in the article about a 'quickie weekend', but I did find...."Haggard said he and his wife, Gayle, "need to be gone for a while."
True introspection takes a bit longer than a quickie weekend, dontcha think?
#23. To: rowdee (#20)
Hi dee - I have a problem with this myself as I think Christians are too quick to forgive swindlers and connivers. This man is not simply someone with a weakness - he's a throughly bad apple who has used his position of power and influence and trust to hurt other people AND this country. I don't think we should just "forgive" him. I think we need to see repentance here, and repentance is not just saying I'm sorry. It's showing by deed and action that you are. I think this guy is just sorry he got caught.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#24. To: rowdee (#20)
Can you spell T-e-d- H-a-g-g-a-r-t? Jesus did not include this kind in his inner circle, did he?
He didn't have a problem calling some people hypocrits, nor ejecting money changers from the Temple.
All men die. Not all men truly live. Live for something, rather than die for nothing.
#25. To: mehitable, rowdee (#23)
Obvioso. And the others in the elite of the hierarchy like James Dobson are handing the public relations campaign. Remember, Haggard met with Junior once a week. And supports the murdering of the Iraqis. Like my father always said, don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.
this guy is just sorry he got caught.
All men die. Not all men truly live. Live for something, rather than die for nothing.
#26. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#2)
He is a professional con artist. He has figured out whom to blame, (gays and lesbians who are like him sexually) and how to slide into the group who he inflamed with his voice raised and finger pointing in damnation too. It will be "all their fault" for bewitching and bedeviling an "honest, God fearing man - whom the devil is out to get all the times especially - and he will be lauded if his con game goes as planned and stays on track. He knows that forgiveness sets the ground for repairing damage words and events have wrought between people. He also knows that if he wedge issues on a personal level, he is skillful enough to make it work as well as he does when he does it in a generic way, he can reclaim the core of his now amputated good standing he actually should never have back. The best cure for this guy is to have an outside party to advise the congregation what parts of this problem are their baggage vs his, as what is with Haggard is complicated by a dysfunctional and abusive relationship between him and his congregation. In the ways they are sick they still need him and in the ways he is he still needs them. He and they will get together again like a feuding couple one can't believe still see each other. You are right on the money in your predictions as to what will happen in regards to his ministry. And it's a shame, they need to divorce each other utterly if both are to have a chance at realistic healing in regards to this situation.
"Why this douche bag is still preaching is beyond me, and what's worse is that now that the jackass is forgiven, he'll be right back at fleecing the flock."
we need to promise to protect them too.#27. To: rowdee (#22)
Ain't that the ticket...ala the "alcoholic" Foley. I advise ya to take the rose colored glasses off on this one.
...."Haggard said he and his wife, Gayle, "need to be gone for a while."
All men die. Not all men truly live. Live for something, rather than die for nothing.
#28. To: angle (#25)
By their fruits shall ye know them.
Like my father always said, don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#29. To: Ferret Mike (#26)
I just find it repulsive how truly evil men like Haggard (and I say that because of his Bush connection) manipulate fine decent trusting people through religion. It's disgusting. This guy should be whipped out of 3 states.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#30. To: mehitable (#23)
I think this guy is just sorry he got caught. YOU may think Christians are too easy to forgive, but you know....Jesus Christ says to forgive 70 x 7, and another time said if you brother keeps screwing up, you keep forgiving if he repents. Furthermore, Scripture also says that people are not to worship, i.e., sacrifice, if there is ill feelings against your brethren--you're to straighten it out first, i.e., forgive them, and then come back. You could well be 100% right about the guy, but it is not up to you to be forgiving him--IIRC, you're on the East Coast. Further, I don't think it is up to you OR I to be judging what is in the guys' heart. If he is all evil, his eternity will have him in the right place. Part of this 'judging' thing can be found in Romans 1 where God turns some people over to their own devices--in Greek, the words indicate or give the impression that God 'pushes' them away. That is HIS doing, HIS turning them over, for HIS purposes. I think it is dangerous territory to be judging God's actions or purposes. What do you mean by repentance? I ask because there are some really weird ideas about what repentance is. God knows the mans' heart. We only see the outside and try to guess the inside based on actions or our own biases.
I have a problem with this myself as I think Christians are too quick to forgive swindlers and connivers. This man is not simply someone with a weakness - he's a throughly bad apple who has used his position of power and influence and trust to hurt other people AND this country. I don't think we should just "forgive" him. I think we need to see repentance here, and repentance is not just saying I'm sorry. It's showing by deed and action that you are.
#31. To: angle (#24)
He dined with Pharisees.......on more than one occasion. He didn't have a problem with money changers (converting common coin to Temple coin) per se--He was showing it was inappropriate to be done in the Temple area.
#32. To: rowdee (#30) (Edited)
I'm sorry, dee, but I think that's just naivete. We can't live like that. Maybe Jesus could, but he was Jesus - the rest of us can't live like that. We wouldn't be able to have a society. If Charles Manson said he was sorry after having all those people killed, should we just "forgive" him? How about Hitler? How far does this go? If people don't pay attention to what people DO, not what they say - but what they DO - they are just gonna continue to be played for fools. This guy Haggerd is a terrible man, and he's been playing his wife, family, entire congregation and this country for fools for a long time. I don't intend to merely "forgive" it and that's the end of it. What is forgiveness without repentence from the sinner? I see nothing that indicates this man has or will repent. I see that he's sorry for getting caught. People need to become more cynical about these "preachers" and alleged men of God. Many of them are evil and mislead the flock. They should not be "forgiven". They should be whipped out of 3 states, as I say. I'm strictly OT on that.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#33. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#8)
I'm not sure there's a comparison. Swaggart was a televangelist. Church pastors have much closer ties to members as there's no TV in between. But did Swaggart ever recover his TV career? I'm not sure he did but I've not kept track of him. In any event, he should certainly not be in a pastoral position ever again. As far as just being litterally in the pulpit and speaking, if the pulpit was reserved for the perfect then no one would ever be in one. The problem you refer to occurs because people idolize charismatic leaders of all types, whether christian or not, which is very unchristian in of itself.
Mark my words Neil, the guy will be back in the pulpit. His own parishners will bring him back. It's today's Jimmy Swaggart.
#34. To: rowdee (#30)
To use another example - are we supposed to "forgive" Bush for the Iraq war, if he came out and admitted he was wrong and asked for our forgiveness? Tens of thousands of people dead and injured - why should we "forgive" that? Why should we let him off? Where is the accountability? WHERE IS THE PUNISHMENT? These people need to be PUNISHED.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#35. To: angle (#25)
Please provide evidence that he met with the liar in chief once a week. At best, there have been suggestions he was on weekly phone calls, though that is disputed; further it has also been suggested that the phone calls were not necessarily with the liar direct, but with perhaps rove or another of the liar's henchmen; I did see evidence where there are l or 2 pictures of this guy and the liar together in the wh...........but over 6 years, that wouldn't concern me as the guy having a direct line to the liar. As it regards murdering iraqis---we're seeing finally that more and more americans are coming out against this 'war' crap. My own brother favors the war. I ain't about to toss him overboard. :) People can differ....without the need for hate. There is way too much of that in this old world.
Remember, Haggard met with Junior once a week. And supports the murdering of the Iraqis.
#36. To: mehitable (#29)
One does not let people like this on the pulpit again for much the same reason you would not be smart having a child molester just out of prison baby sit your kids. He needs to hit bottom and truly be humbled if the truth has any hope of reaching him and changing his ways genuinely for the better. Even then, he would still need to be watched like a hawk.
"I just find it repulsive how truly evil men like Haggard (and I say that because of his Bush connection) manipulate fine decent trusting people through religion. It's disgusting. This guy should be whipped out of 3 states."
we need to promise to protect them too.#37. To: Ferret Mike (#36)
I think people like him need to be in JAIL. I really have no patience with these lying, deceitful, malicious degenerates. I want to see active punishment for this misdeeds. Then I'll believe they've repented and I can consider forgiveness.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#38. To: angle (#27)
Sorry, I don't wear rose-colored glasses. I'm merely trying to keep the facts as known straight. And just because they are 'gone awhile' doesn't mean he would even want to come back if it were possible. It appears the church has a group of ministers/administrators/whatever that handle these sorts of problems and do counselling/fact finding sessions. They're the ones that recommended he be ousted, apparently after meeting with him. No doubt he'd have to pass that hurdle to even manage to come back--if that was God's will, or even his own.
#39. To: Morgana le Fay (#0)
Translation: "I'll be back when all this blows over. Keep giving. We're gonna need the money."
Having resigned the presidency of the National Association of Evangelicals and been dismissed as senior pastor of New Life, Haggard said he and his wife, Gayle, "need to be gone for a while." He pledged to put himself under the guidance of several pastors who will help him work toward restoration.
the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.
#40. To: rowdee (#38)
It would be one thing if his problems just affected him and his church - which is considerable anyway as it's a very large church. However, he has been sticking his nose into politics regularly and that's where he's in trouble. If the church wants to forgive him - fine. But the rest of us don't have to.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#41. To: Neil McIver (#33)
This church of 14,000 members has cutting edge music and video complete with dance floor light tools and has people who dance in the place during frenzied services. This ain't yer great grand daddy's sod and plank house of God attending to humble dirt farmers on a 'Little house on the prairie scenario. In many ways, the sick, distracted people who are maintained with minimal content in front of full wall TV screens in Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 have much in common with this God as spectacle with little religious learning involved have much in common. Sick group A and sick person B will eventually get back into the swing of what they were doing before this minor interruption in routines.
"I'm not sure there's a comparison. Swaggart was a televangelist. Church pastors have much closer ties to members as there's no TV in between"
we need to promise to protect them too.#42. To: mehitable (#23)
I'm not so sure. Bill Clinton was sorry he got caught, but this guy? I mean, I don't know him and never knew he existed before last week. Don't know his politics either and if he's in with Bush and for the Iraq aggression then that's bad for him, as it is anyone else. But looking strictly as what's transpired, and having seen the video of his interview in the car, he appears to be doing now what honest and humble christians are supposed to do. Confessing his wrongdoing and allowing himself to be held accountable for what he's done. Would he be a better christian by attacking his accuser, refusing to resign, and condeming everyone around him? Of course not. He's doing now exactly what he should be doing. Now whether he's sincere or not is something only he and God knows. But he is doing what he should be doing. Sure you and others can condemn him, but I'd say that right is reserved for those who've actually been harmed by him, and if that's not you.... I'm sure there's a lot of guys that live closer to you than he does and who do much worse.
I think this guy is just sorry he got caught.
#43. To: mehitable (#32)
Of course, we don't just forgive a killer. God was emphatic that murderers lives be confiscated. Do as you will.......it will be really something to observe at the end of time when people try to explain to the Messiah that 'it just wasn't realistic to forgive'......... I thought there was one thing I could never forgive--I'm talking really seriously now, mehitable--and it was only just within the past couple of months I've been able to get over that hurdle--and that's been because I've done so much studying. I had no intention of ever forgiving that horrid matter, but I must. If Jesus Christ could ask forgiveness of the ones who were responsible for killing him, I can't do any less--not and face Him at the end of time. By the way, it is my belief that if we, as a society, lived more by Biblical standards, society would be 1000 times better off. He doesn't have to come to me for forgiveness. As for repentance, I am in no position to observe or otherwise know that he turns away from this evil back to good. Certainly this story has caused a big whack against Christianity, churches, and pastors/ministers/priests. It makes me ill, though I do not attend these organization locations. I prefer and do better reading God's word myself, and asking for discernment. I was raised in an organized church with a lot of the 'man made' rules--and I won't do that again.
#44. To: mehitable (#32)
Accountability and forgiveness are two separate things. You can forgive someone for hurting you but that doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't still be punished. Haggard should be and needs to be held accountable for his breach of trust insofar as being removed from his pastoral position and he should not return regardless. But he could still be forgiven. I don't disagree with how careful people should be with whom they choose to trust.
If Charles Manson said he was sorry after having all those people killed, should we just "forgive" him? How about Hitler? How far does this go?
People need to become more cynical about these "preachers" and alleged men of God. Many of them are evil and mislead the flock.
#45. To: mehitable (#34)
Forgiveness doesn't mean getting off the hook. I faulted Robertson, et al, regarding Carla Faye Tucker's execution down in Texas. He seems to think that "I'm sorry" and I"m a born again" that justice was served! There's a 'man of God' that doesn't believe God's word! His actions in this proved that. As to 'why we should forgive'......ask the Messiah.
#46. To: rowdee (#38)
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying God be merciful to me, a sinner. I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. -GOD. Jeepers, Rowdy. How many of these televangelistic-hyper-political-suped-up- pastoriffical-pass-the-platist frauds do you have to see busted before you wise up? I've read your posts, and frankly, I'm concerned. I respect your faith, I'm a Christian myself, but to see these street corner Pharisees as anything other than the tremendously vain and hypocritical frauds they are is just plain delusional. Here's a tip for you. If the pastor has a following beyond about six hundred souls, be wary. If his following is more than six thousand souls, you can stake money on the fact that his ministry is about Pastor X, not Christ. Jesus talked about people like this and warned you against them. Did this man repent of his sins before he was caught, or after? After. Did he lie when initially caught and try to minimize his sins? Yes, he said he only bought meth and didn't use it. Did he only repent when the true facts were indisputable? Yes. He only came clean when he had no other choice. That is not true repentance. That is seeking the forgiveness of men only. Can you see in his heart whether he is truly repentant to God? Of course not. But should you look at the evidence? Clearly yes. The evidence would suggest that he's not. And until he's done something to convince you otherwise, you must avoid taking counsel from him like you would from any Pharisee.
Two men went up into the Temple to pray; the one a Pharisee and the other a Publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.
#47. To: Ferret Mike (#41)
I don't happen to subscribe to the idea that God works only in one way, in one kind of building or prefers, say, a country decor over a modern city one. People who, believe such things put limits in their minds on how and where God can work. Again, I do not know the guy & whether he's honest or a scammer as you and others seem to be so certain. But having a modern, high end facility for their services doesn't bother me at all.
This church of 14,000 members has cutting edge music and video complete with dance floor light tools and has people who dance in the place during frenzied services. This ain't yer great grand daddy's sod and plank house of God attending to humble dirt farmers on a 'Little house on the prairie scenario.
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