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Title: Haggard: 'I am a deceiver and a liar' [Haggard Cons Goobers Into Forgiving Him in Less Than 24 Hours]
Source:
LA Times
URL Source: http://www.latimes.com/la-na-haggard6nov06,0,1687759,print.story
Published: Nov 6, 2006
Author: Stephanie Simon
Post Date: 2006-11-06 00:54:41 by Morgana le Fay
Keywords: None
Views: 981
Comments: 82
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. -- In the hush of a Sunday morning, 9,000 believers grieved, struggled and forgave as their pastor, the Rev. Ted Haggard, confessed his sins. "I am a deceiver and a liar," Haggard told his followers in a letter read from the pulpit of New Life Church by one of his spiritual mentors. "There's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life." Men rubbed at their eyes. Women clung to one another. A grandfather hugged his baby grandson. Haggard had founded this church in his basement. He had grown it to a congregation of 14,000. He had guided them to God and helped them triumph over sin, and he had done it always with a smile, ever exuberant, ever strong. They wept to hear what he'd been hiding. "For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom," Haggard wrote. "Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach." A male prostitute in Denver came forward last week claiming that Haggard had visited his apartment almost monthly over the past three years for sex and drugs. Haggard at first denied it. Then he said he bought meth from the man, but threw it away. On Sunday, he said this: "The accusations that have been leveled against me are not all true, but enough of them are true that I have been appropriately and lovingly removed from ministry." Having resigned the presidency of the National Association of Evangelicals and been dismissed as senior pastor of New Life, Haggard said he and his wife, Gayle, "need to be gone for a while." He pledged to put himself under the guidance of several pastors who will help him work toward restoration. "Please forgive me," he wrote. "I am so embarrassed and ashamed.... I am a sinner. I have fallen." Then the Rev. Larry Stockstill, a Louisiana pastor, read aloud a short letter from Gayle Haggard. She said her heart was broken, but she promised to stand by her husband. "For those of you who have been concerned that my marriage was so perfect I could not possibly relate to the women who are facing great difficulties, know that this will never again be the case," she wrote, evoking a ripple of laughter. "My test has begun; watch me. I will try to prove myself faithful." The congregation rose as one. For a long minute, they stood, applauding, hugging, sniffling. Interim senior pastor Ross Parsley bounded to the podium. "Listen," he said, "we all feel worse than we did a week ago. But we were worse off a week ago. Today, we all are more obedient, more repentant, more transparent than we've been in a long time." Here and there in the vast sanctuary, members of Haggard's congregation called out: "Amen." Afterward, in the lobby, many worshipers echoed Parsley's words. Some were angry at Pastor Ted; many were bewildered. But all said that their faith was not shaken; it was renewed. They would hold fast to all Haggard had taught them over the years, including his preaching that homosexual behavior is an affront to God. "He believes that what he taught us is true," said Carol Groesbeck, 61. "I don't think there's anything that needs to be re-evaluated," put in her husband, Jim, 61, an elder at New Life. "We know what we believe, but it's difficult to live that out. That's not just Ted's struggle. It's our struggle." Michelle Gatson, 37, said she felt reinvigorated by the service after a week that left her so spent, all she wanted to do was "be lying on the floor at home, crying." A member of the choir, she said she found healing in the songs of praise -- praise not for any man, but for God. "I love my pastor," she said. "But I'm glad I didn't put my faith in him. He's human." Added Ian Kallenbach, 26: "I hope he can deal with his demons." Stockstill -- who has been the Haggards' personal pastor for years -- said he saw only relief in Ted Haggard's face when he informed him on Saturday that he was being removed from his position at New Life. Haggard had been struggling for three years to balance his duties as pastor with the high-profile role as head of the evangelical association -- a job that raised his political profile and got him invited to the Oval Office and in on conference calls with the White House. Haggard had tried to carve out time to reflect and to write his books by secluding himself now and then in a Denver hotel. That is apparently when he first contacted the prostitute, Mike Jones, who advertised as a masseur in gay magazines. Haggard alluded to this period in his letter, saying that his pride had prevented him from seeking counseling; he hadn't wanted to disappoint those who loved him. "When I stopped communicating about my problems," he wrote, "the darkness increased and finally dominated me."
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#31. To: angle (#24)
He dined with Pharisees.......on more than one occasion. He didn't have a problem with money changers (converting common coin to Temple coin) per se--He was showing it was inappropriate to be done in the Temple area.
I'm sorry, dee, but I think that's just naivete. We can't live like that. Maybe Jesus could, but he was Jesus - the rest of us can't live like that. We wouldn't be able to have a society. If Charles Manson said he was sorry after having all those people killed, should we just "forgive" him? How about Hitler? How far does this go? If people don't pay attention to what people DO, not what they say - but what they DO - they are just gonna continue to be played for fools. This guy Haggerd is a terrible man, and he's been playing his wife, family, entire congregation and this country for fools for a long time. I don't intend to merely "forgive" it and that's the end of it. What is forgiveness without repentence from the sinner? I see nothing that indicates this man has or will repent. I see that he's sorry for getting caught. People need to become more cynical about these "preachers" and alleged men of God. Many of them are evil and mislead the flock. They should not be "forgiven". They should be whipped out of 3 states, as I say. I'm strictly OT on that.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
I'm not sure there's a comparison. Swaggart was a televangelist. Church pastors have much closer ties to members as there's no TV in between. But did Swaggart ever recover his TV career? I'm not sure he did but I've not kept track of him. In any event, he should certainly not be in a pastoral position ever again. As far as just being litterally in the pulpit and speaking, if the pulpit was reserved for the perfect then no one would ever be in one. The problem you refer to occurs because people idolize charismatic leaders of all types, whether christian or not, which is very unchristian in of itself.
To use another example - are we supposed to "forgive" Bush for the Iraq war, if he came out and admitted he was wrong and asked for our forgiveness? Tens of thousands of people dead and injured - why should we "forgive" that? Why should we let him off? Where is the accountability? WHERE IS THE PUNISHMENT? These people need to be PUNISHED.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
Please provide evidence that he met with the liar in chief once a week. At best, there have been suggestions he was on weekly phone calls, though that is disputed; further it has also been suggested that the phone calls were not necessarily with the liar direct, but with perhaps rove or another of the liar's henchmen; I did see evidence where there are l or 2 pictures of this guy and the liar together in the wh...........but over 6 years, that wouldn't concern me as the guy having a direct line to the liar. As it regards murdering iraqis---we're seeing finally that more and more americans are coming out against this 'war' crap. My own brother favors the war. I ain't about to toss him overboard. :) People can differ....without the need for hate. There is way too much of that in this old world.
One does not let people like this on the pulpit again for much the same reason you would not be smart having a child molester just out of prison baby sit your kids. He needs to hit bottom and truly be humbled if the truth has any hope of reaching him and changing his ways genuinely for the better. Even then, he would still need to be watched like a hawk.
I think people like him need to be in JAIL. I really have no patience with these lying, deceitful, malicious degenerates. I want to see active punishment for this misdeeds. Then I'll believe they've repented and I can consider forgiveness.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
Sorry, I don't wear rose-colored glasses. I'm merely trying to keep the facts as known straight. And just because they are 'gone awhile' doesn't mean he would even want to come back if it were possible. It appears the church has a group of ministers/administrators/whatever that handle these sorts of problems and do counselling/fact finding sessions. They're the ones that recommended he be ousted, apparently after meeting with him. No doubt he'd have to pass that hurdle to even manage to come back--if that was God's will, or even his own.
Translation: "I'll be back when all this blows over. Keep giving. We're gonna need the money."
the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.
It would be one thing if his problems just affected him and his church - which is considerable anyway as it's a very large church. However, he has been sticking his nose into politics regularly and that's where he's in trouble. If the church wants to forgive him - fine. But the rest of us don't have to.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
This church of 14,000 members has cutting edge music and video complete with dance floor light tools and has people who dance in the place during frenzied services. This ain't yer great grand daddy's sod and plank house of God attending to humble dirt farmers on a 'Little house on the prairie scenario. In many ways, the sick, distracted people who are maintained with minimal content in front of full wall TV screens in Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 have much in common with this God as spectacle with little religious learning involved have much in common. Sick group A and sick person B will eventually get back into the swing of what they were doing before this minor interruption in routines.
I'm not so sure. Bill Clinton was sorry he got caught, but this guy? I mean, I don't know him and never knew he existed before last week. Don't know his politics either and if he's in with Bush and for the Iraq aggression then that's bad for him, as it is anyone else. But looking strictly as what's transpired, and having seen the video of his interview in the car, he appears to be doing now what honest and humble christians are supposed to do. Confessing his wrongdoing and allowing himself to be held accountable for what he's done. Would he be a better christian by attacking his accuser, refusing to resign, and condeming everyone around him? Of course not. He's doing now exactly what he should be doing. Now whether he's sincere or not is something only he and God knows. But he is doing what he should be doing. Sure you and others can condemn him, but I'd say that right is reserved for those who've actually been harmed by him, and if that's not you.... I'm sure there's a lot of guys that live closer to you than he does and who do much worse.
Of course, we don't just forgive a killer. God was emphatic that murderers lives be confiscated. Do as you will.......it will be really something to observe at the end of time when people try to explain to the Messiah that 'it just wasn't realistic to forgive'......... I thought there was one thing I could never forgive--I'm talking really seriously now, mehitable--and it was only just within the past couple of months I've been able to get over that hurdle--and that's been because I've done so much studying. I had no intention of ever forgiving that horrid matter, but I must. If Jesus Christ could ask forgiveness of the ones who were responsible for killing him, I can't do any less--not and face Him at the end of time. By the way, it is my belief that if we, as a society, lived more by Biblical standards, society would be 1000 times better off. He doesn't have to come to me for forgiveness. As for repentance, I am in no position to observe or otherwise know that he turns away from this evil back to good. Certainly this story has caused a big whack against Christianity, churches, and pastors/ministers/priests. It makes me ill, though I do not attend these organization locations. I prefer and do better reading God's word myself, and asking for discernment. I was raised in an organized church with a lot of the 'man made' rules--and I won't do that again.
Accountability and forgiveness are two separate things. You can forgive someone for hurting you but that doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't still be punished. Haggard should be and needs to be held accountable for his breach of trust insofar as being removed from his pastoral position and he should not return regardless. But he could still be forgiven. I don't disagree with how careful people should be with whom they choose to trust.
Forgiveness doesn't mean getting off the hook. I faulted Robertson, et al, regarding Carla Faye Tucker's execution down in Texas. He seems to think that "I'm sorry" and I"m a born again" that justice was served! There's a 'man of God' that doesn't believe God's word! His actions in this proved that. As to 'why we should forgive'......ask the Messiah.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying God be merciful to me, a sinner. I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. -GOD. Jeepers, Rowdy. How many of these televangelistic-hyper-political-suped-up- pastoriffical-pass-the-platist frauds do you have to see busted before you wise up? I've read your posts, and frankly, I'm concerned. I respect your faith, I'm a Christian myself, but to see these street corner Pharisees as anything other than the tremendously vain and hypocritical frauds they are is just plain delusional. Here's a tip for you. If the pastor has a following beyond about six hundred souls, be wary. If his following is more than six thousand souls, you can stake money on the fact that his ministry is about Pastor X, not Christ. Jesus talked about people like this and warned you against them. Did this man repent of his sins before he was caught, or after? After. Did he lie when initially caught and try to minimize his sins? Yes, he said he only bought meth and didn't use it. Did he only repent when the true facts were indisputable? Yes. He only came clean when he had no other choice. That is not true repentance. That is seeking the forgiveness of men only. Can you see in his heart whether he is truly repentant to God? Of course not. But should you look at the evidence? Clearly yes. The evidence would suggest that he's not. And until he's done something to convince you otherwise, you must avoid taking counsel from him like you would from any Pharisee.
the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.
I don't happen to subscribe to the idea that God works only in one way, in one kind of building or prefers, say, a country decor over a modern city one. People who, believe such things put limits in their minds on how and where God can work. Again, I do not know the guy & whether he's honest or a scammer as you and others seem to be so certain. But having a modern, high end facility for their services doesn't bother me at all.
It seems to me the vehicle of the message is often more important then the message to a group like this one. That is my point, thanks for your perspective on this none the less.
Wise up? Puleeze............ I am not condoning anything this man has done. I've stated I don't attend organized churches. I've been around long enough to realize that most people will deny or try to cover their asses......my own kids did that when they were little. As I've said, he doesn't have to seek my forgiveness--he's done nothing to impact me. As for repentance, that is a change from within--the heart changes. Oh, I can see that he isn't eating McDonalds anymore, but once inside his home, he could be stuffing his face with See's Chocolates. BUT, God knows everything he eats and does. By the way.......your comments: If the pastor has a following beyond about six hundred souls, be wary. If his following is more than six thousand souls, you can stake money on the fact that his ministry is about Pastor X, not Christ. You realize, of course, that what you wrote about questioning a pastor because of his crowd size, actually applies to Jesus Christ himself! He drew huge crowds, some reported at 5,00 men and 4,000 men--which didn't include the women and children--AND it was about HIM.
Gotta get off for a bit......things to do.
Rather than defend this fraud you might wish to read up on what he's about: http://www.harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist- 20061103288348488.html
All men die. Not all men truly live. Live for something, rather than die for nothing.
We don't know that. We know he didn't confess them publicly until after, yes. But we don't know his "heart condition" beforehand. I think he claims it was a struggle for him, and he supposedly didn't want to disappoint the great many that had respected him so much. Voluntarily coming clean at that point would take a lot more courage than doing so after being caught, but that's all the more reason why it would be more difficult to do. Then again, a position like that is really one of idolotry so things shouldn't have progressed to that point in the first place, probably. Maybe in that sense, I could agree with the more negative sides on this thread. Did he use it afterall? I'm not clear on which accusations he's contesting and which (most) he's not. I'd prefer not to have any itemized list, actually. But yes, his initial denial do count against him. Absolutely. Repent or publicly confess? We only know of the latter. Suggesting it's now impossible for him to repent? I hope it's not like that.
I'm suggesting a healthy skepticism, that's all. The man garnered a flock of 14,000 because he was good at working a crowd. I'd take into account his considerable charisma when listening to him, and be as wary as possible.
the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.
I agree. We can forgive a condemned man for his murder spree as we pull the lever on the electric chair he is sitting in (and hope we are fogiven in the process). Fogiveness of sins and transgressions is what we are expected to do as Christians but that doesn't me that transgressors should escape real world consequences or punishments for their actions. The man who steals or embezzles from his company- can be forgiven for his transgressions by his employer but that forgiveness doesn't mean he shouldn't be fired and or prosecuted for his actions. We can forgive Haggard for his secret life of meth fueled homo kinky sex sessions with male prostitutes but that doesn't mean his congregation should be expected to go on with him as their pastor.
That's exactly the way I feel. If someone is going to be executed for his crimes, I'm willing to say he's paid for what he's done. Or someone who's gone to jail. But for someone to be deceitful, and break the law, and mislead others, and have no real punishment or consequences, other than to "disappear" for a while - that's not enough for me.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
This is a good thread, so thank you.
That seems a bit more long winded than I feel like diving into right now. (I've been up most of the night). As I said, I never knew this guy existed before last week so I'm not defending him. I'm just saying certain judgements should be reserved since we can't really know if he's sincere or not with this one incident, and that how he has responded to this coming to light appears, at least, to be consistent with someone who has a real conscience. If you have more info about him related to his background that makes his sincerity questionable, then I'll have to defer to you there.
Bingo.
That clearly addresses the issue. "I forgive you - now go away." Richard W.
LOL. You have a way of putting things into clear simple statements.
Reminds me of the movie "Cleopatra". Or maybe it was a different title, but she had her served drinks first tasted by a maid as a guarantee it wasn't poisened. One time she caught her maid not actually tasting the wine at which time she tearfully begged forgiveness, that it was indeed poisened but that the assassins threatened her somehow if she squealed on them and didn't pass the queen the poisened drink. Cleopatra's response: "I forgive you. Now drink it".
Well, we'll see if the fox tries to sneak back into the chicken coop. I seriously doubt if he will utter anything negative about homosexuals ever again though. Richard W.
I heard on the radio that Dobson will be counseling the Haggards. I expect a real miracle is in the works. Teddy is going to be turned back into a heterosexual and be returning to god's work soon. Richard W.
Gosh, but you left out the best part about the parable.......the part where the 'exalted shall be humbled and the humbled will be exalted'. :) Or in common layman's lingo, the mighty are gonna take a hell of a tumble, and the least of us is gonna be ridin in high cotton. There sure seem to be a goodly number of people needin to learn this parable. Do you reckon well should make copies and send them to all the new and OLD members of congress when the new session starts in January? Might have to draw them pictures or something to din it into their brains.....whataya think?
makes you think of the stories around the 04 Repub convention in NYC when hookers were eagerly anticipating the arrival of the Republicans. Wonder if the chicks were disappointed at the Repubs love for their fellow men.
The gay hookers need to earn a living too. Richard W.
This is possible..........and the work he returns to may in no way relate to the congregation he was just removed from as pastor. For all we know, he may well have been ignoring God's desire for him to be doing something else--like maybe missionary work in Africa or some such. But the good, easy life was too appealing, so he ignored God's will and this is the only way God could reach him. The man has been brought lower than low--imagine looking into the eyes of someone who has loved you all these years, or the eyes of your children, with them knowing full well just how low you have succumbed. All through the scriptures you find that God use less than perfect human beings to work His will. He even used the enemies of Israel to work his will--for justice. God didn't have a problem putting the Israelites into slavery or captivity....and they were His elect.
LOL. There are SO MANY parables along this line they need to read. Maybe we should just send them copies of the whole New Testament. Revelations seems to be the only part they've read...
the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.
Haggard's public and family lives were a fraud. He wasn't true to himself or his followers. The man should never have been in the ministry. Richard W.
Maybe you should read the book of Leviticus from the old testament about what God thinks of his behavior. How about what Jesus said about people causing others to sin, something about a Millstone Around Their Neck??? It's not my place to forgive anyone, that's God's job. The issue here isn't about whether or not I would prefer he kill himself, the issue is this. We've seen all of this before. We've seen it time and time again. Only this time it is much more egregious, and if you're one of his parishners, that is your problem. Who cares if the other people forgive him? Who cares if God forgives him? The man is a blight on organized religion, just as Organized Religion is an offense to God.
#32. To: rowdee (#30)
(Edited)
#33. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#8)
Mark my words Neil, the guy will be back in the pulpit. His own parishners will bring him back. It's today's Jimmy Swaggart.
#34. To: rowdee (#30)
#35. To: angle (#25)
Remember, Haggard met with Junior once a week. And supports the murdering of the Iraqis.
#36. To: mehitable (#29)
"I just find it repulsive how truly evil men like Haggard (and I say that because of his Bush connection) manipulate fine decent trusting people through religion. It's disgusting. This guy should be whipped out of 3 states."
we need to promise to protect them too.
#37. To: Ferret Mike (#36)
#38. To: angle (#27)
#39. To: Morgana le Fay (#0)
Having resigned the presidency of the National Association of Evangelicals and been dismissed as senior pastor of New Life, Haggard said he and his wife, Gayle, "need to be gone for a while." He pledged to put himself under the guidance of several pastors who will help him work toward restoration.
#40. To: rowdee (#38)
#41. To: Neil McIver (#33)
"I'm not sure there's a comparison. Swaggart was a televangelist. Church pastors have much closer ties to members as there's no TV in between"
we need to promise to protect them too.
#42. To: mehitable (#23)
I think this guy is just sorry he got caught.
#43. To: mehitable (#32)
#44. To: mehitable (#32)
If Charles Manson said he was sorry after having all those people killed, should we just "forgive" him? How about Hitler? How far does this go?
People need to become more cynical about these "preachers" and alleged men of God. Many of them are evil and mislead the flock.
#45. To: mehitable (#34)
#46. To: rowdee (#38)
Two men went up into the Temple to pray; the one a Pharisee and the other a Publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
#47. To: Ferret Mike (#41)
This church of 14,000 members has cutting edge music and video complete with dance floor light tools and has people who dance in the place during frenzied services. This ain't yer great grand daddy's sod and plank house of God attending to humble dirt farmers on a 'Little house on the prairie scenario.
#48. To: Neil McIver (#47)
"Again, I do not know the guy & whether he's honest or a scammer as you and others seem to be so certain. But having a modern, high end facility for their services doesn't bother me at all."
we need to promise to protect them too.
#49. To: bluedogtxn (#46)
#50. To: All (#49)
#51. To: Neil McIver (#42)
#52. To: bluedogtxn (#46)
Did this man repent of his sins before he was caught, or after? After.
Did he lie when initially caught and try to minimize his sins? Yes, he said he only bought meth and didn't use it.
Did he only repent when the true facts were indisputable? Yes.
He only came clean when he had no other choice. That is not true repentance.
#53. To: Neil McIver (#52)
He only came clean when he had no other choice. That is not true repentance. Suggesting it's now impossible for him to repent? I hope it's not like that.
#54. To: mehitable (#32)
#55. To: Burkeman1 (#54)
#56. To: Ferret Mike (#48)
That is my point, thanks for your perspective on this none the less.
#57. To: angle (#51)
#58. To: Burkeman1 (#54)
#59. To: Neil McIver (#44)
Accountability and forgiveness are two separate things. You can forgive someone for hurting you but that doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't still be punished. Haggard should be and needs to be held accountable for his breach of trust insofar as being removed from his pastoral position and he should not return regardless. But he could still be forgiven.
#60. To: Arete (#59)
That clearly addresses the issue. "I forgive you - now go away."
#61. To: Burkeman1 (#60)
#62. To: Burkeman1 (#60)
simple statements
#63. To: All (#62)
#64. To: bluedogtxn (#46)
#65. To: Arete (#63)
#66. To: swarthyguy (#65)
#67. To: Arete (#63)
#68. To: rowdee (#64)
Or in common layman's lingo, the mighty are gonna take a hell of a tumble, and the least of us is gonna be ridin in high cotton. There sure seem to be a goodly number of people needin to learn this parable. Do you reckon well should make copies and send them to all the new and OLD members of congress when the new session starts in January? Might have to draw them pictures or something to din it into their brains.....whataya think?
#69. To: rowdee (#67)
#70. To: rowdee (#21)
 | What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?. |
#71. To: Neil McIver (#42)
I remember when Jimmy Swaggart confessed on national tv, and how he cried his little eyes out. Then two weeks later was back at it again. It seems that this distraction is just like the last one. It's about politics, and influence. It's nothing more than a smokescreen for something else that's much more important in the news.
| What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?. |
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