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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Leave Christmas alone, say Muslims (Muslims side with Christians)
Source: Telegraph.co.uk
URL Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai ... l=/news/2006/11/13/nxmas13.xml
Published: Nov 13, 2006
Author: Jonathan Petre
Post Date: 2006-11-12 22:14:48 by scrapper2
Keywords: Christmas, Muslims
Views: 536
Comments: 40

Muslim leaders joined their Christian counterparts yesterday to launch a powerful attack on politicians and town halls that play down Christmas.

They warned that attempts to remove religion from the festival were fuelling Right-wing extremism.

A number of town halls have tried to excise references to Christianity from Christmas, in one case by renaming their municipal celebrations "Winterval". They have often justified their actions by saying Britain is now a multi-faith society and they are anxious to avoid offending minority groups.

But the Muslim leaders said they honoured Christmas and that local authorities were playing into the hands of extremists who were able to blame Muslim communities for undermining Britain's Christian culture.

The unprecedented broadside was delivered by the Christian Muslim Forum, which was launched this year by the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, with the support of Tony Blair.

The forum's reaction reflects growing anger among Christians and other faiths about the efforts of secularists to push religion to the margins of public life.

In 1998 Birmingham renamed its celebrations "Winterval", and in 2001 Luton described its Christmas lights as "luminos", taken from Harry Potter.

Last week, the Church of England criticised Royal Mail for issuing Christmas stamps with no Christian theme.

The forum, which draws half its membership from senior members of the Muslim community, said in a statement that "as Muslims and Christians together" it was "wholeheartedly committed" to the religious recognition of Christian festivals.

"Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus and we wish this significant part of the Christian heritage of this country to remain an acknowledged part of national life.

"The desire to secularise religious festivals is offensive to both of our communities."

The statement, signed by the forum's chairman, the Bishop of Bolton, the Rt Rev David Gillett, and its vice-chairman, Dr Ataullah Siddiqui, urged society to promote religious freedom.

"Those who use the fact of religious pluralism as an excuse to de-Christianise British society unthinkingly become recruiting agents for the extreme Right. They provoke antagonism towards Muslims and others by foisting on them an anti-Christian agenda they do not hold."

Bishop Gillett said in a separate article that it was strange that so many public bodies were nervous or dismissive about Christmas when 72 per cent of Britons described themselves as Christian in the 2001 Census.

Any repetition by councils to rename Christmas so as not to offend other faith communities will "backfire badly" on the Muslim community, he said. "Sadly it is they who get the blame — and for something they are not saying."

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#1. To: All (#0)

Any repetition by councils to rename Christmas so as not to offend other faith communities will "backfire badly" on the Muslim community, he said. "Sadly it is they who get the blame — and for something they are not saying."

Ummm... then what faith is against celebrating the birth of Christ and what faith likes to see Muslims being falsely accused of attacking Western traditions?

Maybe this article needs to be posted on Free Republic or El Pee by those who have accounts there? The christofundies on those forums might be surprised to read the information in this article.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-11-12   22:21:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: scrapper2 (#0)

PROPHET JESUS (PBUH) IN QURAN 2-87 5-73 19-21 6-85 3-45

2-136 5-75 19-35 3-55 3-49

2-253 19-19 43-64 4-171 3-59

5-72 19-20 4-157 5-116 5-17

2-87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary clear signs and strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.

2-136 Say Ye "We believe in God and the revelation given to us, to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, to the tribes, to Moses, Jesus and to all prophets from their Lord." We make no difference between them, and we bow to Allah as a Muslim.

2-253 To Jesus, the son of Mary, we gave clear signs and strengthen Him with the Holy Spirit.

5-72 They do blasphemy on those who say, "God is Christ, the son of Mary". Christ said, "O children of Israel worship God my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins God with other gods will not go to heaven, the hell fire will be his resting place. These are the wrongdoers.

5-73 They do blasphemy on those who say, "Allah is one of three in a Trinity", for there is no God but one God.

5-75 Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger like the messengers that passed away before Him. His mother was a woman of truth. God makes His signs clear to them, yet they are deluded away from the truth.

19-19 Then we sent her our Angel and he appeared before her as a man in all respects, she said, "I seek refuge from thee to God most gracious." He said, "Nay I am only a messenger from thy Lord to thee with the Gift of a Holy son."

19-20 She said, "How shall I have a son when no man has touched me and I am not unchaste?"

19-21 He said, "So it will be", thy Lord saith, "That is easy for me and we wish to appoint Him as a sign unto man and a mercy from us", and so it was decreed.

19-35 It is not fitting to God that He should beget a Son. Glory be to Him. When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is. (KON FA YAKOON).

43-64 Jesus said, "For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him".

4-157 They said in boast, "We killed Jesus Christ, son of Mary, the messenger of God." But they killed Him not, nor crucified Him, but so it was made to appear to them. Those who differ are full of doubts with no certain knowledge. Nay Allah raise him up unto Himself.

SOURCE: http://www.icbh.org/topics/issa.htm

Max  posted on  2006-11-12   22:27:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: scrapper2 (#1)

Ummm... then what faith is against celebrating the birth of Christ and what faith likes to see Muslims being falsely accused of attacking Western traditions?

Buddhists?

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-11-12   22:36:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: robin (#3)

scrapper: Ummm... then what faith is against celebrating the birth of Christ and what faith likes to see Muslims being falsely accused of attacking Western traditions?

robin: Buddhists?

Exactly, my friend...Buddhists...was there any doubt?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

scrapper2  posted on  2006-11-12   22:40:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: scrapper2 (#1)

Any repetition by councils to rename Christmas so as not to offend other faith communities will "backfire badly" on the Muslim community, he said. "Sadly it is they who get the blame — and for something they are not saying."

Ummm... then what faith is against celebrating the birth of Christ and what faith likes to see Muslims being falsely accused of attacking Western traditions?

Maybe this article needs to be posted on Free Republic or El Pee by those who have accounts there? The christofundies on those forums might be surprised to read the information in this article.

"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth." Jean de la Bruyère

Max  posted on  2006-11-12   22:40:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: scrapper2 (#1)

Lol, I posted on El Pee. I wonder what the responses will be...

Rock gives children, on a silver platter, with all the public authority of the entertainment industry, everything their parents always used to tell them they had to wait for until they grew up and would understand later. --Allan Bloom

"The disgusting stink of a too loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time." -- Frank Zappa

gargantuton  posted on  2006-11-12   22:41:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: scrapper2 (#4)

I almost guessed Moonies, but I can't figure out if they're a religion or a pyramid scheme.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-11-12   22:42:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: robin (#3)

LoL... yep, the don't like those monotheists them Buddhists...

Rock gives children, on a silver platter, with all the public authority of the entertainment industry, everything their parents always used to tell them they had to wait for until they grew up and would understand later. --Allan Bloom

"The disgusting stink of a too loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time." -- Frank Zappa

gargantuton  posted on  2006-11-12   22:42:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Max (#5)

"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth." Jean de la Bruyère

Thank you, Max. I must remember that quotation for future use.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-11-12   22:42:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: scrapper2 (#0)

Much ado about nothing. Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-11-12   22:43:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: gargantuton (#6)

Lol, I posted on El Pee. I wonder what the responses will be...

Excellent.

I'll need to keep a watch on that thread.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-11-12   22:44:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Max (#2)

A Muslim friend has told me of the honor Jesus, and also Mary, are revered in Islam. More alliances as this should happen to fight against the secular and religious extremists. Those are enemies of both the faiths. And these British Christians and Muslims are smart enough to realize that and act as one against them.

Rock gives children, on a silver platter, with all the public authority of the entertainment industry, everything their parents always used to tell them they had to wait for until they grew up and would understand later. --Allan Bloom

"The disgusting stink of a too loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time." -- Frank Zappa

gargantuton  posted on  2006-11-12   22:44:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: scrapper2 (#1)

ping to #12. I can't imagine the nuts at LP liking a comment such as that, lol... why, that makes me a closet Muslim-fascist (all of us Catholics are weak like that...)

Rock gives children, on a silver platter, with all the public authority of the entertainment industry, everything their parents always used to tell them they had to wait for until they grew up and would understand later. --Allan Bloom

"The disgusting stink of a too loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time." -- Frank Zappa

gargantuton  posted on  2006-11-12   22:46:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: who knows what evil (#10)

Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

In modern day humanist and secular America, Christmas means "shop til you drop." ;0)

“The tendency of democracies is, in all things, to mediocrity, since the tastes, knowledge, and principles of the majority form the tribunal of appeal.” James Fenimore Cooper

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-11-12   22:48:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: gargantuton (#12)

A Muslim friend has told me of the honor Jesus, and also Mary, are revered in Islam. More alliances as this should happen to fight against the secular and religious extremists. Those are enemies of both the faiths. And these British Christians and Muslims are smart enough to realize that and act as one against them.

This sort of alliance will cause a lot of heartburn in some quarters.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-11-12   22:50:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: scrapper2 (#1)

Maybe this article needs to be posted on Free Republic or El Pee

You're into hissy fits tonight, aren't you. ;0)

“The tendency of democracies is, in all things, to mediocrity, since the tastes, knowledge, and principles of the majority form the tribunal of appeal.” James Fenimore Cooper

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-11-12   22:50:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: who knows what evil (#10)

Much ado about nothing. Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

While it's true that Christ's birthday has been woefully commercialized, there's still the belief with 80% of Americans and probably a similar percentage in Western nations who self identify as Christians that Jesus Christ was born on an approx. date that the religious holiday,Christmas, celebrates and it was this same Jesus Christ who was later crucified on the cross by people known as ..."Christ killers" for no better descriptor I can think of at this moment...

The whole point of efforts to do away with Christmas is to have Western societies not honor the birth of Jesus Christ, the Saviour, yes?

scrapper2  posted on  2006-11-12   22:51:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: robin (#15)

This sort of alliance will cause a lot of heartburn in some quarters.

Only heartburn? That's it... I'm thinking heart attacks for some (not like I desire that, it's simply to illustrate the narrow-minded ideological mindsets of some)... oy...

Rock gives children, on a silver platter, with all the public authority of the entertainment industry, everything their parents always used to tell them they had to wait for until they grew up and would understand later. --Allan Bloom

"The disgusting stink of a too loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time." -- Frank Zappa

gargantuton  posted on  2006-11-12   22:53:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: robin, gargantuton, BTP Holdings (#15)

gargantuton: A Muslim friend has told me of the honor Jesus, and also Mary, are revered in Islam. More alliances as this should happen to fight against the secular and religious extremists. Those are enemies of both the faiths. And these British Christians and Muslims are smart enough to realize that and act as one against them.

robin:This sort of alliance will cause a lot of heartburn in some quarters.

I remember distinctly that when Mike Wallace interviewed Iranian PM Ahmadinejad, the fact that Muslims honor Jesus Christ was brought up by Ahmadinejad...Wallace did not pursue that topic at all.

Interesting....

scrapper2  posted on  2006-11-12   22:56:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: scrapper2 (#19)

I remember distinctly that when Mike Wallace interviewed Iranian PM Ahmadinejad, the fact that Muslims honor Jesus Christ was brought up by Ahmadinejad...Wallace did not pursue that topic at all.

Mary is honored. Jesus is a prophet. He just didn't get the job done, so to speak I look at it this way -- Muslims think that Christians undershot the runway, while Christians think Muslims overshot it... either way, the plane didn't land on the right spot.

Rock gives children, on a silver platter, with all the public authority of the entertainment industry, everything their parents always used to tell them they had to wait for until they grew up and would understand later. --Allan Bloom

"The disgusting stink of a too loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time." -- Frank Zappa

gargantuton  posted on  2006-11-12   22:58:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: gargantuton (#6)

I posted on El Pee. I wonder what the responses will be...

The bots will try to ignore it. But if it starts to draw attention, they will make posts which say this shows the mentality of the left, and haters of America and so on.

“The tendency of democracies is, in all things, to mediocrity, since the tastes, knowledge, and principles of the majority form the tribunal of appeal.” James Fenimore Cooper

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-11-12   22:58:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: scrapper2 (#17)

The whole point of efforts to do away with Christmas is to have Western societies not honor the birth of Jesus Christ, the Saviour, yes?

I absolutely agree with your statement. I just find it ironic that the whole battle over Christmas is pointless, since Christmas has NOTHING to do with Jesus Christ. We are not commanded to observe the birth of Jesus...period. Christmas is a tradition of man, not G-d. There are a growing number of Christians who ignore Christmas...G-d frowns on debt, and yet that is where many wind up after indulging in the holidays. I couldn't care less if people observe Christmas...just be honest about it.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-11-12   23:00:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: BTP Holdings (#21)

The bots will try to ignore it. But if it starts to draw attention, they will make posts which say this shows the mentality of the left, and haters of America and so on.

Ah yes... the Bots... those who truly do love America and are aware of the threat those eeevill Muslims/Arabs/Mid Easterners (except Christians, who are Arabs still, so they hate us too probably). The only Crusaders to worry about are those from the West in a little country called the USA...

Rock gives children, on a silver platter, with all the public authority of the entertainment industry, everything their parents always used to tell them they had to wait for until they grew up and would understand later. --Allan Bloom

"The disgusting stink of a too loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time." -- Frank Zappa

gargantuton  posted on  2006-11-12   23:01:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: scrapper2 (#19)

the fact that Muslims honor Jesus Christ was brought up by Ahmadinejad

And also they believe in the virgin birth, while the Jews say Christ was the bastard of a Roman soldier.

This kind of thing irks the shit out of the bots since they suffer from such dire Islamophobia.

“The tendency of democracies is, in all things, to mediocrity, since the tastes, knowledge, and principles of the majority form the tribunal of appeal.” James Fenimore Cooper

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-11-12   23:01:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: who knows what evil (#22)

I couldn't care less if people observe Christmas...just be honest about it.

You misunderstood my previous post.

That Christmas is commercialized is a fact and is not a big deal with me either way. It's not my $ that gets wasted at ToysRus or at Macy's. If it makes some people feel more generous with family members they have have overlooked 11 months of the year, who am I to object?

But I feel, like most Christians do I am sure, that it is important that Christmas be celebrated to mark the date - the birth of Jesus Christ.

Don't for a millisecond think that the birth of Christ is lost on society even if they spend too much money on junk or eat too much turkey. Everyone knows world wide the religious significence of Christmas.

There is only one faith that is eager for Merry Christmas to be changed to Happy Holidays for Easter to be changed to Spring Break.

Sometimes you need to take the good (Christmas the religious date) with the bad ( commercialization).

scrapper2  posted on  2006-11-12   23:15:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: scrapper2, BTP Holdings, whoknowswhatevil (#17)

While it's true that Christ's birthday has been woefully commercialized, there's still the belief with 80% of Americans and probably a similar percentage in Western nations who self identify as Christians that Jesus Christ was born on an approx. date that the religious holiday,Christmas,

agreed, but even ignorance does not allow for the fact that God specifically told "Christians" in Jeremiah, 10, NOT to have a Christmas tree.

Now God referred to a Christmas tree as "the way of the heathen", is that any way to celebrate His son's birthday? Of course not, but then again, Christians are NOT celebrating his son's birthday, they are celebrating Mithra's birthday!!

Most knowledgable Christians will admit that it is generally assumed that the Christ was NOT born in the winter, and that December 25th is simply a day CHOSEN to celebrate his birth. Kind of odd that they chose the birthday of a pagan God, whose traditions were warned against in the Bible, who was born of a virgin, the human son of a God, who is part of a holy trinity???

http://www.geocities.com/birthofjesus/enchr5.pdf

"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."

ladybug  posted on  2006-11-12   23:22:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: ladybug (#26) (Edited)

NOT to have a Christmas tree.

Right, it's a Hanukah bush. I gave up the heathen holidays, including the pagan Easter celebrations. The Christmas shopping commercial BS just makes me nuts. All that garbage was already on display in the big box stores right after the first of November.

“The tendency of democracies is, in all things, to mediocrity, since the tastes, knowledge, and principles of the majority form the tribunal of appeal.” James Fenimore Cooper

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-11-12   23:30:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: BTP Holdings (#27)

Right, it's a Hanukah bush.

Hanukah is another interesting topic, and i am not fluent in its origin. BUT I do know that it is not one of the Holy Days (holi-day) that God told us to observe.

"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."

ladybug  posted on  2006-11-12   23:33:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: scrapper2, BTP Holdings, whoknowswhatevil (#26)

December 25th is simply a day CHOSEN to celebrate his birth. Kind of odd that they chose the birthday of a pagan God, whose traditions were warned against in the Bible, who was born of a virgin, the human son of a God, who is part of a holy trinity???

Ok, I found a better website about Mithra..it better explains what I was saying.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."

ladybug  posted on  2006-11-12   23:45:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: BTP Holdings (#27)

The Christmas shopping commercial BS just makes me nuts.

me too! the traffic around here on weekends from 11/1 through 1/2 is horrendous.

christine  posted on  2006-11-12   23:50:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: gargantuton (#13)

There are currently 24 posts to this article at freakerville.

Here's one that cries out for psychiatric intervention:

"Muslims will sit back and let the atheistic Left undermine Christianity until the time is right for them to make their move. Of course, the first thing that Islamists will do after achieving power will be to execute the secular leftists."

Notice the PC label of the well known anti-Christmas ilk ( Buddhists) as "aetheist Left" and "secular leftists." he, he, he

And the know it all certitude that Islamists are biding their time to strike a mortal blow. he, he, he

Are these freakers for real? Too crazy, man. Why are they allowed to vote without first getting psychiatric certification as to their sanity?

scrapper2  posted on  2006-11-12   23:56:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: scrapper2 (#31)

at el pee or TOS? 24? wow... and yes, they are for real. that's the scary part. And the sad part is that we have no real reason to fear "them." They have more of a reason to fear us, and they do.

Rock gives children, on a silver platter, with all the public authority of the entertainment industry, everything their parents always used to tell them they had to wait for until they grew up and would understand later. --Allan Bloom

"The disgusting stink of a too loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time." -- Frank Zappa

gargantuton  posted on  2006-11-13   0:03:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: gargantuton (#32)

at el pee or TOS? 24? wow... and yes, they are for real.

I like your sense of humor - 24,indeed.

The quote I picked was from TOS.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-11-13   0:05:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: scrapper2 (#33)

yeah... such a massive number, lol... TOS eh. don't post there, hehehe.

Rock gives children, on a silver platter, with all the public authority of the entertainment industry, everything their parents always used to tell them they had to wait for until they grew up and would understand later. --Allan Bloom

"The disgusting stink of a too loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time." -- Frank Zappa

gargantuton  posted on  2006-11-13   0:07:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: christine (#30)

the traffic around here on weekends from 11/1 through 1/2 is horrendous.

you'll have that when delusional people get behind the wheel. ;)

hammerdown  posted on  2006-11-13   0:10:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: scrapper2 (#33)

Hmm... Nothing on el pee yet... apparently it's not too important. or perhaps it shatters too many preconceptions and world views...

Rock gives children, on a silver platter, with all the public authority of the entertainment industry, everything their parents always used to tell them they had to wait for until they grew up and would understand later. --Allan Bloom

"The disgusting stink of a too loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time." -- Frank Zappa

gargantuton  posted on  2006-11-13   0:14:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: scrapper2 (#0)

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

They warned that attempts to remove religion from the festival were fuelling Right-wing extremism.

This is true; and as extremists are the only ones that might halt muslim immigration, or reverse it, this outreach makes perfect sense. Making nice with Christians on an official level buys time for building more mosques and making more babies in the lands formerly known as Christendom.


Disobedience must be punished with more boulders.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-11-13   12:31:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Tauzero (#37)

They would not have left the ME if it was still peaceful there.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-11-13   13:02:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: robin (#38)

They would not have left the ME if it was still peaceful there.

Ultimately, Europeans wouldn't be dealing with any of this if Europeans had been content to stay in Europe.


Disobedience must be punished with more boulders.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-11-13   16:24:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Tauzero (#39)

Also true, but for some, that sandbox wasn't big enough to share.

Most Profound Man in Iraq — An unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."

robin  posted on  2006-11-13   16:35:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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