See other All is Vanity Articles
Title: Is it possible that entire populations are going INSANE?
Source:
[None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Nov 15, 2006
Author: Mehitable Storm
Post Date: 2006-11-15 11:31:45 by mehitable
Keywords: None
Views: 1988
Comments: 61
I just posted this idea in a thread to Robin about what is happening in the Congo and wanted to throw the idea out to a broader group. People are behaving so bizarrely, frequently on a mass scale such as in the Congo, that I am wondering if many large groups of people - and I mean entire populations - are suffering from psychosis. The behaviors in the Congo seem to be well beyond the behavior of even wartime atrocities - they seem like the actions of insane people. What is making people so crazy? Is it a social phenomena of breakdown in traditional cultures and values, or is there some real organic effect of chemicals and/or drugs that are making people literally INSANE?
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
Comments (1-20) not displayed.
.
.
.
#21. To: swarthyguy (#17)
Kaiser Wilhelm bears an awful lot of the blame (as do his German subjects.) I fear Bush shares a lot of Wilhelm's psychological problems, and there is also, I think, all too much similarity between Wilhelmine Germans and current Americans.
Katrina was America's Chernobyl.
Thanks, this book/info is most helpful.
I had an older brother whose favorite comic strip was Archie and Mehitable. I read it a few times. A few years ago I read the bio of the man who wrote it.
The Truth of 911 Shall Set You Free From The Lie
This ten million number has been bothering me, as that sounds like a rather large number of people to have been living in the Congo in the 1880s. This must be the claim of Adam Mochschild in his book? I sense a blame agenda here.
I've been trying to find some info on Congo history, and from what I've read the pygmies were there first, then others came and settled, by the time Leopold arrived in 1ate 1800s, the Arabs were already trading the natives as slaves, and the pygmies were already being eaten by the other natives. Indeed Leopold was very brutal and ruthless in his quest for rubber, and there are too many varying estimates of the dead. They died from diseases brought in by the white man, and from forced labor, starvation and outright murder. The estimates range from 10,000 dead all the way up to 10 million dead, that number claimed by Hochschild, who appears to be widely quoted. I don't think anyone will ever know the true number of dead from that era. The present day population is around 50 million, and the country is quite large, and very troubled.
The Congo has apparently been scheduled for depopulation. Leopold II sounds like he was one brutal pig, whatever the actual #s.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Well, there was enough blame. The Austrian insistence, and shades of ClintonAlbright at Rambouillet, an ultimatum issued by the Habsburgs to Serbia that was designed to elicit Serbian refusal, much like NATO wanted Serbia to give up its sovereignity, a virtual parallel to the Austrian demand. Germany's fault lay in her giving a blank cheque of support to the Habsburgs. The Czar of Russia, coming to the aid of the Serbs. Not to mention the populations of all Europe, including Britain and France, who caught up in the jingoistic war fervor, clamored for war.
Your prerogative. Hochschild's research is impeccable. As far as the blame agenda, well, he's an historian, you can believe him or not. That's why in the future, when the numbers of Iraqi dead are disputed, the same rationale can be used to discount the Lancet study. Only 30K civilians dead in Irak. That's what Dubya says. Varying estimates of the dead depend on who is pushing what agenda. The Belgians have every reason to minimise the numbers they killed. OK, so only 10K died at Belgian hands in the Congo in the 1890's.
To be fair to Diana, there's quite a range between 10k and 10 million. One would be interested in how the author derived his figure. Also, just because someone is an "historian" doesn't mean they are necessarily accurate or without an agenda. I don't know this fellow or his work so I can't say specifically, but inaccuracies or deliberate falsehoods certainly occur in historical research.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
Alright, we'll just blame it on the Jews.
LMAO - well, that's not my point of view. I'm just sayin', is all.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
It's a human desire to turn away from the brutality of the human race. I think citing someone's "agenda" is an easy way out. If you read the book and then come up with valid reasons for disputing his account, fine. But, it's part and parcel of the marked tendency to ignore some of the causes and reasons why Africa is the basket case it is. The unyielding brutality of the Colonial powers as they built their wealth on the blood of the natives. Not to say the natives weren't brutal to each other. But, viewing historical facts through rose colored glasses and hiding behind words like "agenda" and questioning research without reading the book, simply because the facts are highly uncomfortable is, well, human nature. If it wasn't Belgians, perhaps the truth is easier to take. As I said, Belgians, those truffle guys?
I think that's waffle guys. Aren't the French the truffle guys?
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." You are correct. Mea Culpa.
Depends on the kind of truffles. The Belgians are big into chocolate so they probably make a lot of chocolate truffles.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
I wonder where they get the cocoa from? The Congo?
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Hergé (pseudonym för Georges Remi), som levde 1907–1983. Georges Remi föddes i Bryssel 1907
lol! I thought he was French, this French coworker I once worked with introduced us all to TinTin. Then I found some at the library for one of my children and he enjoyed the series too. I rather enjoy Hercule Poirot myself, but granted, that is a stretch ;P
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." (French: Astérix) is a fictional character, created in 1959 as the hero of a series of French comic books (with the same title) by René Goscinny (stories) and Albert Uderzo (illustrations). Uderzo has continued the series since the death of Goscinny in 1977. Asterix was created by the French.
good to know, thanks, I may look for it at the library.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Both those series are great, funny and joy, pure joy!
oh, you didn't know either?
Austria, a junior partner who felt its existence threatened, behaved very much the way Israel does today. My point was that most of the danger in the world today springs from Bush and the U.S. It is therefore within our power to remove most of the danger. If some part of the danger comes from U.S. allies like Israel, and from other powers, I don't think that vitiates my point.
Katrina was America's Chernobyl.
Although Maigret was eminently French, his creator, Simenon, was Belgian.
Katrina was America's Chernobyl.
heh heh - yeah they probably did. Hey sounds like the Belgians were pretty rancid in their dealings. Is that why they put the "capital" of Europe there?
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
One of my favorite Belgian truffles is Jean Claude Van Damme, the Muscles from Brussels. Although he might quality as a waffle too....
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
lol! Too bad he can't act.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Lot of folks think I'm a guy - must be the mustache ;)
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
He doesn't have to. I could act for both of us....
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
There's one movie he made where some old Chinese guy is teaching him how to fight (yeah one of those) and he does a lot of splits and interesting manouevres. The human body is a wonderful thing.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
If he's an historian on the order of Daniel Goldhagen, I would not be so sure of his numbers, but perhaps his research is impeccable, it's difficult to tell in these times when there are so many agendas. It does appear as if Leopold was a very brutal man without pity, as there seems no doubt that people of the Congo died in his quest for greed. I did not say I believe the correct number is 10,000 dead, again I said I tried to find out from different sources what happened and the estimates were from 10,000 dead, all the way up to ten million dead, the number Hochschild gives us. I'm sure we will never know the true number of dead in Iraq.
Again I read varying numbers of dead and I gave the range. Your Hochschild is highly quoted, and he gives the largest number at ten million, perhaps he's right, I don't pretend to know, though obviously he was not good for Congo, as he invaded and destroyed.
It's also human nature to blame others for people's bad behavior, people do that all the time. I seriously doubt what happened in that area of Africa over 100 years ago is the reason they are having a brutal civil war in Congo now. They have had wars in Africa since the beginning of time, just like every other part of the world. It's not like they were the innocents of the earth who were corrupted all because of Leopold, it might be more comfortable to you to view it that way, but each person is responsible for his/her own deeds, and this has never been a perfect world, nor was it meant to be.
Me too, I read all of the Agatha Christie books as a teenager.
I specifically said that in a previous post. Never claimed Leopold "corrupted" them, it's just the sheer ferocity of the civilizing Europeans that was mindboggling. After all, it's not we've heard much about this conquest, apart from Conrad's book.
What's wrong with the Lancet study of 655K? Upto a few months ago, add a couple of thousand at least a month since then. There's a study using methodology considered by the US, the Europeans and the UN conducted by some very competent experts. I know Dubya questions the methodology, but I doubt he could articulate his objections.
In the absence of a census (the first was made in 1924), it is even more difficult to quantify the population loss of the period. British diplomat Roger Casement's famous 1904 report set it at 3 million for just twelve of the twenty years Leopold's regime lasted; Forbath, at least 5 million; Adam Hochschild, 10 million; the Encyclopædia Britannica gives a total population decline of 8 million to 30 million. Wikipedia seems to think the total dead were between 3 and 10 million.
Katrina was America's Chernobyl.
No, but when the Colonial powers departed they left borders that mirrored their colonies, not natural geographic barriers or other natural boundaries or tribal congruity. A recipe for future bloodbaths. Wasn't only in Africa - when the British left India, the Pathan (Pushtun) population area was split in half, one half going to Afghanistan and one to Pakistan. The original splitting of the Pushtun population had been accomplished in 1933 with the setting of the infamous Durand line, the current border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Where US troops currently are! In Africa, to use an example most notable to us in recent history, is the Rwandan Hutu slaughtering of the Tutsi - directly due to colonial borders running roughshod over traditional tribal divisions and looking to only one criteria - what was most beneficial to the colonial power.
A few years ago I read something that mentioned the slaughter in Rwanda and the theory was that that particular area of Africa was over-populated at the time, and when that happens anywhere, either disease or war breaks out and the population is quickly reduced to a more sustainable level. Someone did a lot of research on that theory, and ever since I read that it made me wonder if we are in store for a horrific world war. I must have read that around 1998.
Well, don't think the theory holds water for the Great Wars of the 20th Century. Was Europe overpopulated in 1914 and 1939? The Great Flu Epidemic broke out in 1918 as the war was coming to a close. Personally, I don't see the Earth as overpopulated or about to fall to some long prophesied Malthusian disaster.
Was Europe overpopulated in 1914 and 1939? It might as there was a huge population explosion during the 1800s as a result of the industrial revolution and a new focus on sanitation.
Europe went mad. Completely. If the European monarchies had not gelded themselves in the blood orgy, it's quite probable that the domination of the world by the European powers would have lasted centuries more.
#22. To: swarthyguy (#15)
#23. To: randge, Christine, Mehitable (#14)
#24. To: swarthyguy, robin, mehitable (#15)
In the 1880s, as the European powers were carving up Africa, King Leopold II of Belgium seized for himself the vast and mostly unexplored territory surrounding the Congo River. Carrying out a genocidal plundering of the Congo, he looted its rubber, brutalized its people, and ultimately slashed its population by ten million--all the while shrewdly cultivating his reputation as a great humanitarian.
#25. To: swarthyguy, Destro, mehitable, robin (#15)
#26. To: Diana (#25)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#27. To: aristeides, Destro (#21)
#28. To: Diana (#25)
#29. To: swarthyguy, Diana (#28)
#30. To: mehitable (#29)
#31. To: swarthyguy (#30)
#32. To: mehitable (#31)
#33. To: swarthyguy, mehitable (#32)
As I said, Belgians, those truffle guys?
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#34. To: robin (#33)
#35. To: robin (#33)
#36. To: mehitable (#35)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#37. To: mehitable, robin, Diana (#35)
One of my favorite Belgians, creator of the Tin Tin comic book series.
#38. To: swarthyguy (#37)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#39. To: robin (#38)
#40. To: swarthyguy (#39)
Asterix was created by the French.
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#41. To: robin (#40)
#42. To: IndieTX, mehitable (#19)
Oh is she?? :)))))))))) LOL!
#43. To: swarthyguy (#27)
#44. To: robin (#38)
#45. To: robin (#36)
#46. To: swarthyguy, robin (#37)
#47. To: mehitable (#46)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#48. To: christine, IndieTx (#42)
#49. To: robin (#47)
lol! Too bad he can't act.
#50. To: robin (#47)
#51. To: swarthyguy, mehitable, robin (#28)
OK, so only 10K died at Belgian hands in the Congo in the 1890's.
#52. To: swarthyguy, mehitable (#30)
(Edited)
Alright, we'll just blame it on the Jews.
#53. To: swarthyguy (#32)
But, viewing historical facts through rose colored glasses and hiding behind words like "agenda" and questioning research without reading the book, simply because the facts are highly uncomfortable is, well, human nature.
#54. To: robin, swarthyguy, mehitable (#38)
I rather enjoy Hercule Poirot myself, but granted, that is a stretch ;P
#55. To: Diana (#53)
It's not like they were the innocents of the earth who were corrupted all because of Leopold, it might be more comfortable to you to view it that way
The unyielding brutality of the Colonial powers as they built their wealth on the blood of the natives.
>Not to say the natives weren't brutal to each other
#56. To: Diana (#51)
I'm sure we will never know the true number of dead in Iraq.
#57. To: Diana (#51)
Estimates of the total death toll vary considerably. Nevertheless, it is impossible to speak of a genocide because a genuine will to exterminate a certain group must exist. The reduction of the population of the Congo was noted by all who have compared the country at the beginning of the colonial rule and the beginning of the 20th century. Estimates of observers of the time, as well as modern scholars (most authoritatively Jan Vansina, professor emeritus of history and anthropology at the University of Wisconsin), show that the population halved during this period. According to Roger Casement's report, this depopulation was caused mainly by four causes: indiscriminate "war", starvation, reduction of births and diseases. Sleeping sickness ravaged the country and was used by the regime to justify demographic decrease. Opponents of King Léopold's rule stated, however, that the administration itself was to be considered responsible for the spreading of this dreadful epidemic. One of the greatest specialists on sleeping sickness, P.G. Janssens, Professor at the Ghent University, wrote:
It seems reasonable to admit the existence on the territories of the Congo Free State, of French Congo and Angola of a certain number of permanent sources that have been put again in activity by the brutal changement of ancestral conditions and ways of life that has accompanied the accelered occupation of the territories.
#58. To: Diana (#53)
I seriously doubt what happened in that area of Africa over 100 years ago is the reason they are having a brutal civil war in Congo now
#59. To: swarthyguy, mehitable (#58)
#60. To: Diana (#59)
#61. To: swarthyguy (#60)
Well, don't think the theory holds water for the Great Wars of the 20th Century.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest