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9/11
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Title: 9/11: Conspiracy of Incompetence
Source: http://www.opednews.com
URL Source: http://www.opednews.com/articles/op ... 61115_the_911_conspiracy_o.htm
Published: Nov 16, 2006
Author: R O Connor
Post Date: 2006-11-19 07:16:17 by Kamala
Ping List: *9-11*     Subscribe to *9-11*
Keywords: 911
Views: 973
Comments: 104

November 16, 2006 at 09:45:58

9/11: Conspiracy of Incompetence

by Rory OConnor

http://www.opednews.com

What if I told you that a member of Osama bin Laden's inner circle operated with impunity within the United States for years before September 11? That despite being an ardent and avowed jihadi, he managed to become a naturalized citizen, to join the US Army, to get posted to the Special Warfare Center where Green Berets and Delta Force train, and to work with both the CIA and the FBI? And all the while he was a top al Qaeda operative, hosting its second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahiri when he traveled to the US in the 1990's to raise money, and training both bin Laden's personal bodyguard and radical Muslims who would go on to assassinate Jewish militant Meir Kahane and detonate a truck bomb at the World Trade Center?

Would you take it as evidence that our so-called intelligence community was abjectly incompetent and dysfunctional in the months and years before 9/11? Or would you see it as further proof that the powers-that-be were the powers behind 9/11, either "making it happen on purpose?" Or alternately: "letting it happen on purpose?"

With time running out on the lame duck Bush Administration (now well on its way to becoming a "comma," as the President might phrase it), our chances of getting to the bottom of the signal event of the Bush years -- the unsolved murder of nearly three-thousand people, the worst terror attacks ever on US soil, the "day that changed everything," the iconic 9/11 -- are also rapidly fading.

Even as the misnamed "war on terror" continues to heat up, the crime that precipitated it has somehow become a cold case. The only federal prosecution directly associated with the attacks -- that of Zacarias Moussaoui -- ended in a plea bargain and with an FBI agent accusing his superiors of "criminal negligence." Meanwhile, in the absence of a truly unfettered investigation, amidst calls from victims' families for a reopened, non-partisan inquiry, and with many major questions still unanswered more than five years after the fact, it is unsurprising that faith-based theories continue to pour into the information vacuum and assume, at least for some, an aura of truth.

Numerous polls indicate that few Americans now believe they have been told the truth about 9/11. According to one poll conducted recently for the New York Times and CBS News, more than eighty percent think the Administration is either "mostly lying" or at least "hiding something." Before it becomes too late, and the case too cold, is it still possible to determine what happened on 9/11 -- and why?

Did some version of the MIHOP or LIHOP conspiracy theories actually take place? Or were our leaders and their minions in the intelligence community simply so incompetent that they missed dozens, if not hundreds, of pre-attack "threat assessments," warnings, signs and indications that, as the notorious PDB of August 6, 2001 bluntly informed the president, Osama Bin Laden was "Determined to Strike in US?" If so, did they then conspire to cover up their "criminally negligent" incompetence?

Count author Peter Lance, an Emmy-winning former reporter and producer for ABC News, among those who believe in the "9/11 Incompetence Conspiracy Theory." Lance's new book, "Triple Cross," tells the amazing story of an al-Qaeda superspy named Ali Mohamed. As Lance writes, "In the annals of espionage, few men have moved in and out of the deep black world between the hunters and the hunted with as much audacity as Ali Mohamed."

Mohamed's fundamentalist proclivities were no secret to US intelligence. As early as 1989, he turned up in FBI surveillance photos, conducting weapons training of followers of the Omar Abdel Rahman, the "blind sheikh" now imprisoned for his role in a plot to blow up the United Nations and several bridges and tunnels into Manhattan. The sheikh's followers would later be involved in the first attack on the World Trade Center in 1993, but Ali Mohamed not only avoided arrest but managed to become an FBI informant, even while smuggling bin Laden in and out of Afghanistan, writing much of the al Qaeda terrorist manual and helping to plan attacks on American troops in Somalia and U.S. embassies in Africa.

''The FBI allowed the chief spy for al Qaeda to operate right under their noses,'' Lance says in amazement. ''They let him plan the bombings of the embassies in Africa right under their noses. Two hundred twenty-four people were killed and more than 4,000 wounded because of their negligence."

While some contend that Mohamed's intimate relations with the FBI and CIA are proof of government involvement in a 9/11 plot, Lance says that it was instead embarrassment and ass-covering on the part of Justice and Pentagon officials over the mishandling of Ali Mohammed that led first to a conspiracy of silence and then to a conspiracy to cover up their incompetence and deception. He believes that chagrin over the fact that bin Laden's spy stole top-secret intelligence (including, for example, the positions of all Green Beret and SEAL units worldwide) led to a decision on high to bury the entire Able Danger intelligence program, which identified the al Qaeda cell active in Brooklyn months before the 9/11 attacks, and also identified Ali Mohamed as a member of bin Laden's inner circle as early as March 2000. Lance further states that then-Assistant US Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald was "hopelessly outgunned by Mohamed," and covered up key al Qaeda intelligence as far back as 1996.

Although Fitzgerald called Mohamed "the most dangerous man I've ever met," he left him on the street for years, which allowed Mohamed time to help plan the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania on August 7th, 1998, in which 224 died and more than 4,000 were injured. Fitzgerald, who later became both U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois and Special Prosecutor in the Scooter Libby/Valerie Plame CIA leak probe, finally arrested Ali Mohamed after the bombings in 1998. But Fitzgerald then cut a deal that allowed Mohamed to avoid the death penalty and enter witness protection. Although Mohammed was kept in federal custody for three years, Fitzgerald and his FBI and Justice Department associates were unable to extract any information from him about the looming 9/11 plot.

Finally, in October 2000, after having tricked the US intelligence establishment for years, Mohammed admitted in federal court his involvement in plots to kill US soldiers in Somalia and Saudi Arabia, US ambassadors in Africa, and American civilians "anywhere in the world." Despite these admissions, he has never been sentenced, the details of his plea agreement remain secret, and his whereabouts today are unknown to all but a few.

Given the many mistakes and apparent government deception obvious from even a cursory examination of the Ali Mohamed case, along with related miscues involving the Central Intelligence Agency (see "The Looming Tower" by Lawrence Wright, and "State of Denial" by Bob Woodward), the National Security Agency, the Defense Intelligence Agency, and high officials at Special Operations Command, Central Command, and yes, the White House. it's no wonder that conspiracists see evidence -- if not outright proof -- for their "loose change" theories of what happened on 9/11.

But in writing his brilliantly researched, highly detailed, exhaustive (and at nearly 500 pages, exhausting!) account of how Osama bin Laden's master spy "triple crossed" the CIA, the Green Berets and the FBI, Lance has actually done the 9/11 truth movement a distinct service. The media and the government's national security apparatus may have failed to "connect the dots," but Peter Lance certainly has in "Triple Cross."

Was there a government conspiracy behind the attacks of 9/11? Or did the true conspiracy begin only after the attacks, in a desperate but thus far successful attempt to avoid scandal and obscure the truth that our intelligence agencies had suppressed critical intelligence and bungled their jobs? Whatever your faith and belief, the Ali Mohamed story seems key to understanding the full truth of 9/11. "Could the attacks have been prevented?" Lance asks. "If so, who in our government should be blamed for the failure?" And finally, and most importantly, "have our intelligence agencies undergone sufficient reform to prevent future assaults on America?"

http://www.roryoconnor.org

Filmmaker and journalist Rory O'Connor writes the 'Media Is A Plural' blog, accessible at http://www.roryoconnor.org.

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Poster Comment:

Peter Lance is a limited hangout writer. Throw out some truth, control the blame. He still contends 911 was just incompetence and bumbling, even though he has stated that WTC 7 was a demo job. You can't have it both ways. Subscribe to *9-11*

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#64. To: Destro (#62) (Edited)

Would you suggest Britain carried out Pearl Harbor?

The New Pearl Harbor Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11 Updated Edition with a New Afterword by David Ray Griffin

The raid on Pearl Harbor took the U.S. Pacific Fleet by surprise, but back in Washington, the Roosevelt administration was fully aware of the coming onslaught.

Don't forget that before America entered WWI, there was discussion about which side we should support.

"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973

robin  posted on  2006-11-21   14:24:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: robin (#63)
(Edited)

You want to think of America as an impotent giant being manipulated by the wily clever Israelis, be my guest.

It is a psychologically beneficial scapegoat, a red herring that absolves America and her citizens of all responsibility for policies implemented by America, a useful pinata.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-11-21   14:27:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: swarthyguy (#65) (Edited)

It is psychologically beneficial scapegoat, a red herring that absolves America and her citizens of all responsibility for policies implemented by America.

Americans are the ones that are tired of having Israel raid our pockets each and every year.

If they want war in the ME, then so be it, just leave Americans out.

I can undersrtand how America haters would not agree.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-11-21   14:30:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Cynicom (#66)

HAHAHA! So, now I'm an America hater because I don't buy that Israel rules America.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-11-21   14:34:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: swarthyguy (#65) (Edited)

You want to think of America as an impotent giant being manipulated by the wily clever Israelis, be my guest.

It is a psychologically beneficial scapegoat, a red herring that absolves America and her citizens of all responsibility for policies implemented by America, a useful pinata.

Come on - you know Larry Silverstien - an old Jew New York landlord went to Mossad commando school like all Jews and was personally leading sabotage brigades on 9/11 - though he is not all that clever and let the fact slip while being interviewed for television for PBS.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-11-21   14:34:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: swarthyguy (#65)

You want to think of America as an impotent giant being manipulated by the wily clever Israelis, be my guest.

I see it as a very unhealthy symbiotic relationship betwixt Zionists (or ZioNazis) and the fascist NeoCommies; among whom are purely opportunistic thugs like Cheney who have eyes/heart/mind only for their private and rapidly (I just mistyped this "rabidly", that may be more correct) growing offshore bank accounts.

"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973

robin  posted on  2006-11-21   14:35:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Destro (#68)

old and arrogant, bound to have a "senior moment" or two

But his lawyer managed to sue for TWO terrorist attacks, Lucky Larry walked away with billions.

"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973

robin  posted on  2006-11-21   14:37:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: swarthyguy (#67)

HAHAHA! So, now I'm an America hater because I don't buy that Israel rules America.

Read carefully. You included yourself in that group, not me.

Guilty conscience or poor comprehension?

Cynicom  posted on  2006-11-21   14:38:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: robin (#70)

old and arrogant, bound to have a "senior moment" or two

But not on that night, eh?

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-11-21   14:38:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Destro (#72) (Edited)

Post deleted by dummy.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-11-21   14:42:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Cynicom (#71)

Oh, please, such silly semantic games.

The implication is clearly there.

Guilty conscience AND poor comprehension? Izzat better for you. My, you are so clever. Sure you're not Jewish, a little hanky panky in the family past?

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-11-21   14:42:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: swarthyguy (#74)

The implication is clearly there.

Sure was and you swallowed it hook line and sinker. Har T har har

Cynicom  posted on  2006-11-21   14:43:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Cynicom (#75)

Hard to believe nonjews are capable of such clever trickery.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-11-21   14:47:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: swarthyguy (#76)

Hard to believe nonjews are capable of such clever trickery.

Uh huh, right.

Allen was a non Jew until he was outed and it cost him the election, that is an indication of how Americans are finally awakening.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-11-21   14:49:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Cynicom (#73)

Post deleted by dummy

What post and who is the dummy?

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-11-21   14:57:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: bluedogtxn (#38)

Not only were there ties to the CIA and the hijackers, but also the FBI, the State Dept and the military.

NIST and FEMA conducted some physical investigative science and research. Their own findings don't support what happened to the towers.

I also agree there are plenty of crackpots in the 911 movement, but the real solid credible science and research is beng done by engineers, chemists, mathematicians, pilots, doctorates, physicists.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   14:58:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Destro (#72)

old and arrogant, bound to have a "senior moment" or two

But not on that night, eh?

what?

I suspect Larry isn't used to being televised, and that what he may have thought was said "off the record", was indeed on record.

"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973

robin  posted on  2006-11-21   14:59:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: robin (#80)

something interesting

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,230839,00.html

Cynicom  posted on  2006-11-21   15:01:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: robin (#80)

I suspect Larry isn't used to being televised, and that what he may have thought was said "off the record", was indeed on record.

You suspect why?

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2006-11-21   15:01:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: bluedogtxn (#39)

Physical evidence is just one part of the investigative aspect of 911. You can believe that these hijackers were manipulated by certain rogue elements in our government, but don't believe the towers and WTC could be rigged with explosives?

The exploding towers were part of the psyop. Watching the towers explode were to be mentally tramatic to our nation.

Solid research has been done on the people and paper trails. I guess you just haven't given the time to read it all.

Never in the history of structural steel highrises before 911, or after 911, or as a matter of fact on 911, has any kind of fire resulted in a total global gravity collapse of a building.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   15:09:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: bluedogtxn (#40)

I agree about the missile theory an the Pentagon and so do most other credible sources on 911.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   15:11:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: bluedogtxn (#3)

I've always been fairly confident with the notion that nineteen Arab hijackers hijacked three planes and flew them into the various buildings involved

The same lying turds in government and the media that pushed the "war on terror" are the same lying turds that were screaming about 19 "Arab hijackers" the day after the event.

Thus far, I've seen no proof of hijackers, only hearsay. There's not even one second of CCTV videotape from Logan that shows these supposed hijackers.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-11-21   15:13:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: bluedogtxn (#52)

Structural steel skyscrapers do not collapse from fire. Period. Even if there is no fireproofing.

The towers were designed to withstand multiple impacts and still stand. The outer perimeter collumns were able to withstand a 2000% increase load.

You are correct that some giant girders and debris was thrown and exploded 100's of feet away.

Ask yourself, where would the energy come from to do this? How could a progressive global gravity collapse propel and eject steel girders and sections that far?

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   15:23:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: bluedogtxn (#54)

These hijackers couldn't fly a single engine plane, let alone a complex airliner. Pilots have repeated this.

There were hijackers on the plane, but nothing was left to chance, which would include the towers having explosives and the planes having remote control.

911 was a terror/hijacking war game that went live. It was hidden/wrapped around the other wargames that day.

There were passengers and pilots and hijackers. All were playing a part of the wargame that went live.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   15:30:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: swarthyguy (#56)

I agree to the point it doesn't explain the motives. It only distracts if one is in denial over the physical evidence of explosives.

I've posted articles here about PTECH from Ruppert and Thompson and others.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   15:34:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: swarthyguy (#58)

I have posted numerous articles besides the demolition of the buildings.

Alot of researchers stay on one aspect, wether its people/paper trails or other research.

Debating the towers and explosives is much more engaging than discussing the movement and ties of the hijackers and our government officials.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   15:38:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Kamala (#87)

a terror/hijacking war game that went live

Did it ever.

I'll just suggest one point to ponder in case of the pilot hijackers - consider that they were already trained jet pilots, even fighter types, who during the course of their careers, trained at US facilities.

Their pilot education here was a cover.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-11-21   15:39:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: swarthyguy (#65)

I agree here also. The Mossad and Israel knew and more than likely were tailing the patsy arabs, but this whole operation was a USA invention.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   15:41:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: swarthyguy (#90)

That could be, but according to the official theory, a couple of the named hijackers that were flying the airliners that day, had a past history of having horrible basic flying skills and knowledge.

This operation had to succeed. Thats why most believe in remote control. These planes had to strike the towers and the Pentagon. I believe the 4th plane might have been a back up in case of failure of one of the others.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   15:49:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Kamala (#92)

the official theory

Now isn't that just what they'd want us to believe.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-11-21   16:06:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: bluedogtxn (#40)

Did you know that scientific tests performed on the structural steel by NIST/FEMA showed that of the 98% of the steel from the fire zones only reached 480 degrees?

The other 2% showed nothing over 600 degrees.

In NISTs' own live scale floor models, none of the trusses, girders or couplings failed. Even after doubling the loads and reducing the fireproofing. This was at 2hrs at 2000 degrees.

According to FEMA, the steel in the impact zones looked great, and the impacts did very little to the towers.

NIST reports that around 14-15% of the primary girders saw damage.

According to John Skilling, the main designer and engineer of the towers, the towers could lose almost 30% of the girders and still stand hurricane winds.

One could start cutting collumns on one side of a corner, across the whole face and around the next corner, and this would be near the base where the loads would be even greater.

WTC 7 had areas of steel girders that were evaporated. That takes 5100 degrees. The girders at WTC 7 had eutectic, sulphadated, intragranular formations.

There are even photos showing molten slag hanging off girders at WTC 7 and blackish/blue burn marks of the steel.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   16:14:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: bluedogtxn (#38)

Contrary to what has been posted in this thread. There was no molten steel at WTC 1, 2 and 7. What was found and seen and reported by numerous people at the ground zero was molten iron.

Two independent samples of this molten metal were tested from 911 memorials and the findings were; iron, aluminum, potassium, zinc, sulphur, fluorine, barium, chlorine.

These are the traces and fingerprints of military thermate. These streams of iron flowed, and pools burned deep under the pile and basements at ground zero without 02.

These are chemical reactions and byproducts. There is no need for 02 because thermate creates and gives off 02.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-21   16:38:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Kamala (#87)

These hijackers couldn't fly a single engine plane, let alone a complex airliner. Pilots have repeated this.

This link is to the trial transcript for Moussaoui.

If you have time to review, it is quite apparent that the instructor (Prevost) is firm in his opinion that had Moussaoui finished his simulator time he COULD have done what he was training to do.

What other pilots may or may not think is not really relevant, Prevost was the instructor and privy to everything, including Moussaoui.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/moussaoui/zmprevost.html

Cynicom  posted on  2006-11-21   17:11:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Kamala (#94)

Did you know that scientific tests performed on the structural steel by NIST/FEMA showed that of the 98% of the steel from the fire zones only reached 480 degrees?

The other 2% showed nothing over 600 degrees.

In NISTs' own live scale floor models, none of the trusses, girders or couplings failed. Even after doubling the loads and reducing the fireproofing. This was at 2hrs at 2000 degrees.

According to FEMA, the steel in the impact zones looked great, and the impacts did very little to the towers.

NIST reports that around 14-15% of the primary girders saw damage.

According to John Skilling, the main designer and engineer of the towers, the towers could lose almost 30% of the girders and still stand hurricane winds.

One could start cutting collumns on one side of a corner, across the whole face and around the next corner, and this would be near the base where the loads would be even greater.

WTC 7 had areas of steel girders that were evaporated. That takes 5100 degrees. The girders at WTC 7 had eutectic, sulphadated, intragranular formations.

There are even photos showing molten slag hanging off girders at WTC 7 and blackish/blue burn marks of the steel.

well done. i love when you get involved on these threads. ;)

“When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains – however improbable – must be the truth!" - Doyle

christine  posted on  2006-11-21   17:35:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: christine, Kamala, bluedogtxn (#97)

Excellent post Mark.

The physical evidence touted by the 9/11 truthers is based on an ignorance of science

Dr. Steven Jones, a physics prof lately of the Univesity of Utah is so ignorant of science.

Just like the way the towers fell, nearly at free fall and with such symmetry. The steel center core w/o any flooring was gone too. The testimony and audible and seismic recordings of explosions before the falls are all so lacking in science.

Yes, so ignorant of science.

"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973

robin  posted on  2006-11-21   17:47:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: robin (#98)

Aspects of demolition;

Sudden onset of collapse

Straight down symmetrically

Nearly free-fall speeds

Total collapse

Sliced steel girders

Pulverization of concrete

Expanding dust and debris clouds

Horizontal squib ejections

Demolition rings

Sounds of explosions

Pools of molten iron/metal

Scientific method states that to prove a phenomenon to exist, one must duplicate and prove the phenomenon in a scientific controlled experiment.

If one cannot duplicate and prove the phenomenon in a scientific controlled experiment, the claimed phenomenon does not exist.

The fires in the Twin Towers were not raging infernos. They gave off lots of black, sooty smoke, indicating an oxygen-poor fire. Oxygen- poor fires do not produce high temperatures.

The Boeings which allegedly hit the Twin Towers had both taken off with enough fuel for a transcontinental flight, but most of the jet fuel in the South Tower impact was consumed in the spectacular fireball, so presumably much more fuel was available for the fire in the North Tower.

If the fires were the cause of the collapse then we would expect the North Tower to have collapsed more quickly than the South Tower. But the opposite happened: the North Tower collapsed 104 minutes after impact whereas the South Tower collapsed after only 56 minutes.

Steel is an excellent conductor of heat, so when you apply heat to a steel structure the heat spreads quickly. So the heat from the fires would have spread through the entire steel structure of each tower. The Twin Towers contained 200,000 tons of steel.

Are we expected to believe that the fires from two loads of jet fuel provided sufficient heat to raise 200,000 tons of steel to the point where it became critically weak?

Based on data provided by Corus Construction Centre, and assuming that the WTC architects followed the usual safety margins for load- bearing steel structures, we may conclude that even if the fire had heated the steel to 1022° F (550°C) that would not have been sufficient to cause the towers to collapse.

Fire tests on other steel girder construction in four countries revealed that the maximum temperature steel reached in an hydrocarbon fire was 680°F (360°C), far below that needed to weaken significantly.

Never in the history of fires in steel highrises has a primary vertical steel girder failed and collapsed. Never. Not even a local collapse.

There has been localized failure of horizontal steel girders, but it has never resulted in a progressive total gravity collapse of the entire building.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-22   6:20:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: bluegrass (#85)

You are dead on. There at this time, no video of said hijackers boarding any of the flights.

There has never been any hijacker dna indentified and linked to any names.

Their names or any arab never appeared on the original and official flight manifests.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-22   6:25:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Cynicom (#96)

If elephants could only fly too.

The instructors involved with the hijackers have stated they lacked all basic skills and knowledge, and the instructors were actually afraid to fly with them for insurance liability and personal safety.

There are so many details and evidence, small and large, left out of so many aspects of what really went on that day, it could fill a small library.

Mark

The FBI, rather than trying to prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred.— Robert Wright - Former FBI agent

"At temperatures above 800º C structural steel loses 90 percent of its strength. Yet even when steel structures are heated to those temperatures, they never disintegrate into piles of rubble, as did the Twin Towers and Building 7."-http://www.911research.net

Kamala  posted on  2006-11-22   6:34:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: Kamala (#101)

If elephants could only fly too.

Prevost was more qualified to make such a judgement than most people.

Any pilot with 15,000 hours of flight time that was involved with one of the terrorists cannot be dismissed as an elephant trainer.

The lawyer at Moussaouis trial tried to pass Prevost off as "speculating" also, that his judgement did not count.

The judge would have none of that nonsense and the subject was never brought up again.

Anyone that reads the trial transcript of Prevosts testimoney objectively, will not consider elephants flying.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-11-22   8:17:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Kamala, christine (#99)

more great and concise explanation

"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973

robin  posted on  2006-11-22   11:51:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Kamala (#99)

Scientific method states that to prove a phenomenon to exist, one must duplicate and prove the phenomenon in a scientific controlled experiment.

If one cannot duplicate and prove the phenomenon in a scientific controlled experiment, the claimed phenomenon does not exist.

excellent. your entire post. so simple. i don't get why some can't see it.

“When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains – however improbable – must be the truth!" - Doyle

christine  posted on  2006-11-22   12:02:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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