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Title: FOOD FOR THOUGHT-GOING ARMED TODAY
Source:
HOUNDDAWG
URL Source: http://none.com
Published: Nov 30, 2006
Author: puppy
Post Date: 2006-11-30 02:13:08 by HOUNDDAWG
Keywords: guns, Cops, jail
Views: 395
Comments: 23
On another forum I responded to a person who asked about legally wearing an exposed firearm in California. Having actually worn firearms for many years and been harassed by people who despise guns and knowing several other people who learned the things I wrote the hard way, I'd like to offer the following for your approval and intellectual stimulation: "If you've never allowed inner city minorities to see you wearing a firearm then you're in for a big surprise. They'll surround you and say "We know why you got dat gun, honky, 'cause you don't like niggas' huh?" and you may be forced to shoot your way out. And, any liberal, campus radical anti gunner who can describe your weapon to the police can dial 911 and claim you threatened her, him or them, and you'll go to jail on a phony gun rap. And, don't kid yourself, a carload of "witnesses" will cheerfully perjure themselves and the police will gladly believe them, and you can be convicted of a felony for simply upsetting anti gunners. DON'T EVER WEAR AN EXPOSED FIREARM IN AN AREA WHERE IT ISN'T NORMALLY SEEN BECAUSE YOU WILL GIVE YOUR ENEMIES THE POWER TO JAIL YOU ANYTIME THEY'RE FEELING MEAN! And, the fact that you defy convention with no regard for the sensitivities of others will be presumed to be belligerance, and you're case is probably lost even if it isn't actually illegal to wear firearms in plain sight! And, the whole advantage of producing a firearm in a timely manner is the element of surprise which you negate by wearing it exposed, and the boogie persons can and will shoot you in the back rather than give you the chance to draw on them. This is how armed robbers deal with Brinks couriers who carry a firearm in one hand and a bag of money in the other. They won't take the chance of confronting you face to face, either. You may be a real pistolero and hey, someone could get hurt! In Los Angeles they simply step out from behind a clothing rack and shoot the guard in the back of the head, pick up the loot and run out the door. Nothing good can come from exposing your weapon around potential hostiles. They have all the advantage and you have little, and they will decide if you use the gun by choosing the time and place to harass you. (It's a terrible feeling to suddenly realize that someone else can decide when you must draw or use a firearm and they can pick a a time and place and witnesses that can and will all line up against YOU!) Too many people have been wrongfully charged with brandishing and threatening and had to spend thousands to defend against phony charges. So, if you're willing to risk a felony (or a misdemeanor in CAL) to go armed then just conceal the damn thing and take your chances. I mean, assuming you weren't someplace you weren't supposed to be or doing something you weren't supposed to be doing, have you ever been stopped and frisked for no reason? Once again let me remind you, there are people who will fly into rages at the mere sight of a civilian wearing a firearm and they have no qualms about filing false police reports. Don't arm them with the power to destroy your life while laboring under a false sense of security because you're packing. The only place to wear exposed sidearms is in the desert or in the hunting and camping woods. And, you don't want an outlaw motorcycle gang to see you armed out in the middle of nowhere, either. They'll likely take offense and (assuming they don't confront you immediately) it will do you more harm than good if they decide to pick their moment to get even by throwing gasoline on your tent or camper in the middle of the night. Once a bunch of ne'er-do-wells see the weapon or the mere presence of your firearm actually stops someone from harassing or harming you and yours, then it's time to leave the area because they will be planning ways to get their revenge! I hate to say this because it upsets people who believe they have the right to go armed in a peaceable manner, but it's legal to wear your underwear on the outside of your clothes, too, but would you even ask why few ever do it? All either will do is draw unnecessary attention and harassment, and if you happen to walk past a pawnshop and some old Holocaust survivor (there are at least 10 million of them it seems) sees your gun he'll clutch his chest and scream something like "It reminded me of Germany in 1935 and I thought they were coming for me again!!!!" and you're going to jail for disorderly conduct at the very least. And, if you don't think the police will swell up with self righteous zeal when arresting you for the "crime" of legally going armed if you look Aryan and upset a non Christian from New York City, then you haven't been keeping up on current events. Cops have their own reasons for despising armed citizens and your rights are a low priority, and are the subject of numerous training sessions and tricks to circumvent them. In fact we've had many reports of citizens who showed a cop a CCW permit during a traffic stop and then found themselves face down with a gun at their heads. The cops don't want to share the power, and many of them wouldn't enjoy being cops anymore if everyone wore guns. Assuming you aren't a person prohibited because of a criminal or mental health history, then under sec. 12025 of the CA Penal Code carrying a concealed firearm is only a misdemeanor. (Concealing a big knife is a felony, though, which shows you how the law reflects the prejudices of the Anglo lawmakers who fear the Mexican cultural propensity for carrying and using blades to settle differences) So, do yourself a favor and learn how to discreetly carry without imprinting the outline of the weapon or holster through your clothes. Then, just carry the damn thing and think of it the same way you think of a fire extinguisher-glad to have it and hope you never have to use it. Don't give up the very precious element of surprise in a naive attempt to comply with a law that only handicaps peaceful, law abiding citizens. One more thing: No matter what you're charged with you'll likely have to forfeit the weapon. It's not unusual to offer a citizen the chance to plead out to disorderly conduct and pay a fine IF THEY SURRENDER THE WEAPON! I know it's silly but prosecutors and judges consider it a moral if not legal victory if a citizen does that even if the citizen committed no crime. It also minimizes the possibility that you will use the case later should you decide to become an activist on this issue, and if you do they will say that you must have felt you were wrong or you wouldn't have accepted the plea AND SURRENDERED THE WEAPON! This is upsetting if not infuriating to many, but the things I've written here reflect the reality of trying to go armed in our society."
Poster Comment: When I was in my early 20's my older brother and I decided to wear our sidearms and walk the dogs one night in a quiet, old money neighborhood behind Norfolk VA's OLD DOMINION UNIVERSITY. I wore a S&W snubby and my brother strapped on his LLama .380 auto just in case we ran into some of the city's angry and empowered-by-the-voting-rights-act 14th amendment citizens for whom the War Of Nawthern Agression and continuing battle for reparations will likely never end. Norfolk has a particularly unsavory and violent strain of neegrows who will push whites out of line in fast food restaurants and call the police and/or violently assault any who dare to object, and the whites there are so thoroughly "reconstructed" that they often suffer this abuse without a peep. Anyway, no sooner than we left my mother's home with the pooches a car pulled over and an obviously flaming gay man tried to pick my brother and I up. I said to my brother, "This guy's a fag, let's go!" As expected the little fairie didn't appreciate being rudely dismissed and he said, "Well, I don't like people who wear GUNS!" as his wings fluttered furiously. Ten minutes later as we were returning home a Norfolk Police cruiser pulled up and the cop politely asked us if we were both 18 yrs of age. When we replied "YES" the officer said "Thank you" and left. (At that time even non violent convicted felons got their gun rights back after five years from the date of leaving the penitentiary, until Clinton passed a federal law that forever ended the states' option to restore gun rights to ex cons.) If that incident happened these days we'd be arrested for gaybashing, terrorist threatening and a laundry list of charges. That particular night the person who reported us didn't claim that we brandished or threatened or engaged in any illegal activities with our firearms, but it taught me a valuable lesson: Had he done so and been willing to sign a complaint (he had a carload of boy "witnesses", too-they looked like sailors who he was taking home for a "welcome back from the Mediterranean" party) we'd have been in for great legal difficulty at best, and possibly felony records and the loss of our cherries in one or more of the commonwealth's dingy, blood and feces-stained correctional facilities at worst. I could share several other adventures but the moral of them all is "DON'T LET THE ENEMY SEE YOUR GUN UNTIL YOU EITHER PICK THE MOMENT OR YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DRAW THE WEAPON!
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#1. To: HOUNDDAWG (#0)
I have to agree. I've seen Internet tough guys who loudly declare that anyone who doesn't carry openly is a lily-livered coward who has allowed gun rights to disappear. Of course there's no way of knowing if they even own a gun or if they've ever open carried in any populated area.
laughing..enjoyed your story and very good advice. you're right. this isn't kansas, toto.
They're fools. Always carry concealed or you lose your advantage, in addition to the above story.
Thank you all.
"JUST WALK ON BY....Wait on the corner.... I love you but we're strangers when we meet"__Leroy Van Dyke
I think you gave some good advice here Hound.
Thank you.
"JUST WALK ON BY....Wait on the corner.... I love you but we're strangers when we meet"__Leroy Van Dyke
Thanks Dawgie.. sound advice!
Thanks. The system is hostile to gun rights and it's no mere oversight that the SCOTUS won't hear cases that clear up these unconstitutional gun laws nationwide. An honest court would have to strike down most laws and acknowledge that the feds' only legit interest in machine guns is for the purpose of collecting an excise tax. There should be no jack boot raids. They should send out little nerds in bowties with adding machines, and Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store.
"JUST WALK ON BY....Wait on the corner.... I love you but we're strangers when we meet"__Leroy Van Dyke
IMO this is about fear.. fear of the people.. and those on the left who are so antigun.. those who are so concerned about rights.. need to rethink their position on this.. of course those behind the scenes attempt to paint a picture of those who are pro2nd amendment as nuts and freaks.. all for the purpose of undermining,.
Great site: http://www.opencarry.org/ The people there are my kind of guys/gals.
There are people who open carry and are proud to do so. Their motto is "A right unexercised is a right lost". They do what they do for a reason. There is even a man Shaun Kranish who is fighting for us in gun-unfriendly areas. Some people carry different ways for different reasons.
Shaun Kranish? I read about him! His defense was so brilliant that he will no doubt win the respect of everyone on his cellblock. You're talking about martyrs who want to fall on their own swords, solicit charity donations for legal defense, and who will soon find that they have no friends when the state lies to obtain a conviction. I'm talking about discreet carry so you'll have the damn thing if you ever need it. If I'm going to have legal problems I want them to be because I had the gun when I needed it, not because the cops arrested me and left me unarmed while fighting an uphill battle to win a right for people who don't even care. What do I care if others can carry without harrassment? If I win the case then the state will change the law and then open carry will be outlawed anyway. Hell, if I shoot someone the first charge they plea bargain away is the gun charge, so why would I want to go to trial for something that crims seldom face? The only people who face gun charges are honest citizens and if it's the only charge they won't drop it. And if your own neighbors believe that the state has the power to outlaw the peaceful carry of firearms (and they do) then they will convict you when sitting on your jury. I accept that fact but I still want to survive any violent encounters so I ain't joining any group who can't read the writing on the wall and who don't have their priorities straight.
"JUST WALK ON BY....Wait on the corner.... I love you but we're strangers when we meet"__Leroy Van Dyke
You're about 10 years behind the times. The last 20 years the carry laws have become less restrictive not more. You're fighting the last battle that has already been won. And open carry has had a positive effect to educate both the police and the public. From the Washington Post: "On July 2, Fairfax County police received a 911 call from a Champps restaurant in Reston. Six men are seated at a table, the caller said. They're all armed. Dispatchers quickly sent four officers to the scene. The officers were "extremely polite" and were hoping that some of the men were in law enforcement, said Sgt. Richard Perez, a spokesman for the police department. None was. The men told the officers "they were just exercising their rights as citizens of the commonwealth," Perez said. Turns out, packing a pistol in public is perfectly legal in Virginia. And three times in the last month, including at Champps on Sunset Hills Road, residents have been spotted out and about in the county, with guns strapped to their hips, exercising that right. Carrying weapons openly was not unprecedented locally, Van Cleave said. He said that the defense league has a monthly meeting in Northern Virginia with 25 to 30 members and that most go out to dinner afterward with their sidearms openly visible. "We've had 40 people open carry, in a restaurant, with no problem," he said. -end story And these guys are doing this in a major urban area a couple miles outside of DC. You're way behind the times. Hell, gun rights advocates now have July 4 as Open Carry New Hampshire Day. People there are open carrying just outside of Boston and it's led to MORE police acceptance and departments educating their officers about that right. You're stuck in 1987. People are moving forward on this, not backward.
The discussion was about California. I'm well aware that open carry is defacto lawful in VA since I was born and raised there. But, that is still no bar to prosecution if someone files a false police report. In other words, the right to carry won't protect someone from bogus complaints. You're obviously too busy trying to be witty and smarmy to read with comprehension I guess. And, the people in Ill, NJ, MD and many other states don't enjoy open carry. And, in my state of DE open carry is legal only because no one does it. If they did the general assembly would outlaw it. So, it would appear that you've declared a premature victory, and I'm guessing that you don't carry an exposed firearm in any of the formentioned states, right? And just try strapping a gun and walking through darky town anywhere. So you're proving once again that "ignorance speaks the loudest".
"JUST WALK ON BY....Wait on the corner.... I love you but we're strangers when we meet"__Leroy Van Dyke
I couldn't agree more. I have nothing to add except to suggest that if anyone needs further proof of how absurd it is to wear an exposed weapon, google “Rick Stanley.” There’s a difference maker for ya’
If you have to educate every cop you meet while carrying I wouldn't exactly call it a right, would you? Cops who don't like the sight of a gun will arrest for disorderly conduct, a throw down baggie or something, and the end result is a powerful disincentive to wearing firearms exposed. "It cost 10 grand and four months of my life but, I won! Open carry is legal! We can all go home and never fear harassment again.!" NOT!
"JUST WALK ON BY....Wait on the corner.... I love you but we're strangers when we meet"__Leroy Van Dyke
That is a blanket statement where you make absolutely no reference to California or mention anything about particular states. In fact, you're whole diatribe was a jump back and forth between generalities and California. This is upsetting if not infuriating to many, but the things I've written here reflect the reality of trying to go armed in our society." Are you saying by "our society" you meant California? I ain't buying it. I gave counterexamples in "our society" so who's right? In other words, the right to carry won't protect someone from bogus complaints. Welly golly no, but by that logic I guess people shouldn't marry either. After all being legally married won't protect you from a false domestic abuse charge. Wow. I'm well aware that open carry is defacto lawful No, not de facto. Really lawful as in not forbidden by statute or common law. In fact the statute particularly describes what type of firearm is allowed for open carry. And, the people in Ill, NJ, MD and many other states don't enjoy open carry. 6 states don't allow open carry. And how is not open-carrying where it's allowed going to help those where it isn't. And, in my state of DE open carry is legal only because no one does it.If they did the general assembly would outlaw it. That's what they thought in New Hampshire until some brave people showed them otherwise. And again that's some thought process you have going there. Not doing legal things because they may in the future make them illegal. What other legal things don't you do because you fear they may outlaw it? So, it would appear that you've declared a premature victory, I was declaring victory on the concealed weapons issues. Some places of course need a tweaking to get them to go the way of Vermont and Alaska, and there's the whole shall issue v may issue deal, but it's come so far so fast I'd call it a victory. What I was saying is it's time to move on to the next issue which is acceptance of open-carry. I'm guessing that you don't carry an exposed firearm in any of the formentioned states, right? I never said to open carry where it's illegal. My point is you do it where it's legal to show, just as the early states that passed concealed permit laws showed, that it's not going to lead to the sky falling and that it won't turn into a "Wild West". And just try strapping a gun and walking through darky town anywhere. You mean like the cops do? Because that's what the people there are going to most likely think you are. White guy, black neighborhood with pistol in a holster, "yep that's a cop."
I get it, you ignore what actually happened, like in Virginia where the DA educated the departments on the law or New Hampshire where the Association of the Chiefs of Police did, and substitute your own reality. Got it.
There should be no jack boot raids. They should send out little nerds in bowties with adding machines, and Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store. amen bump - it's all about the money.
Right.
"JUST WALK ON BY....Wait on the corner.... I love you but we're strangers when we meet"__Leroy Van Dyke
Nor will any right bar you from a bogus complaint. Using that logic, none of us should dare speak our mind in public, or wear un-PC messages on our shirts, because someone might not like it, and then lie to the police about you threatening them or some such. And, in my state of DE open carry is legal only because no one does it. If they did the general assembly would outlaw it. Message: "Don't exersise your rights, or you might loose them." And if someone did Open Carry in DE, would you blame them if the GA sought to ban it? There are people out there that are open-carrying right now, and are helping the cause. Small steps... I'm talking about discreet carry so you'll have the damn thing if you ever need it. No problem with that. If that is your interest: Simply the best defense situation. But please don't bash the OC-ers, they are defending themselves physically AND our rights at the same time. The problem with wanting to be descreet politicaly with your guns(gun-rights), is that such appeasement will not work...they will soon want to come for your CC.
May I ask you something, who's side are you on? Because you are acting like a JBT mouthpiece..."See citizen! This is what we will do to you!" So there is injustice in the world("throw down baggie"). We all know that. You are here giving us examples....but how you present them will speak for itself as to what your goal here is. For example, If you are someone who's interest is in defending freedom and justice, you would point to situations, such as the one you just gave, as an incentive to fight and to evolve tactics for dealing with corruption; If you are a JBT or a tyrant, you would want to point to such situations as incentive to never exersise your rights anytime an oppressor makes an example out of someone. But I suppose you will want to flaunt the idea of "realism". That you are a "realist". That "this is just the way things are", and then give me some exaggerated example/challenge like "go walk down in front of the Whitehouse with a shotgun over your shoulder if you want to defend your rights". Being a so-called "realist" is just guise for being a defeatist, or wanting to discredit opposing views under the notion that anything that runs counter to your arguement is immposible already. Go look at OpenCarry.org for examples of how we slowly maintain our culture and rights.
-Thomas Paine
#2. To: HOUNDDAWG (#0)
#3. To: HOUNDDAWG (#0)
as his wings fluttered furiously.
#4. To: alpowolf (#2)
I've seen Internet tough guys who loudly declare that anyone who doesn't carry openly is a lily-livered coward
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
Just as there is no money in peace or freedom, there is also no money in a healthy Amerika - - IndieTX
#5. To: lodwick, christine, alpowolf, Indie TX, Zipporah (#1)
#6. To: HOUNDDAWG (#0)
#7. To: tom007 (#6)
#8. To: HOUNDDAWG (#0)
#9. To: Zipporah (#8)
#10. To: HOUNDDAWG (#9)
#11. To: IndieTX, Christine, alpowolf (#4)
C.H.
#12. To: HOUNDDAWG, *bang* (#9)
C.H.
#13. To: ChareltonHest, christine, Zipproah (#12)
#14. To: HOUNDDAWG, CharletonHest (#13)
(Edited)
#15. To: SmokinOPs (#14)
#16. To: HOUNDDAWG, all (#0)
"DON'T LET THE ENEMY SEE YOUR GUN UNTIL YOU EITHER PICK THE MOMENT OR YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DRAW THE WEAPON!
#17. To: Jethro Tull (#16)
#18. To: HOUNDDAWG (#15)
(Edited)
DON'T EVER WEAR AN EXPOSED FIREARM IN AN AREA WHERE IT ISN'T NORMALLY SEEN BECAUSE YOU WILL GIVE YOUR ENEMIES THE POWER TO JAIL YOU ANYTIME THEY'RE FEELING MEAN!
#19. To: HOUNDDAWG (#17)
(Edited)
If you have to educate every cop you meet while carrying I wouldn't exactly call it a right, would you?
#20. To: HOUNDDAWG (#9)
An honest court would have to strike down most laws and acknowledge that the feds' only legit interest in machine guns is for the purpose of collecting an excise tax.
-Thomas Paine
#21. To: lodwick (#20)
#22. To: HOUNDDAWG (#15)
But, that is still no bar to prosecution if someone files a false police report. In other words, the right to carry won't protect someone from bogus complaints.
C.H.
#23. To: HOUNDDAWG (#17)
Cops who don't like the sight of a gun will arrest for disorderly conduct, a throw down baggie or something, and the end result is a powerful disincentive to wearing firearms exposed.
C.H.
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