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Title: Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees
Source:
www.king5.com
URL Source: http://www.king5.com/localnews/stor ... ABairporttreesSW.1663eccf.html
Published: Dec 10, 2006
Author: www.king5.com
Post Date: 2006-12-10 22:04:55 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 2285
Comments: 138
Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees KING Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky SEATAC, Wash. - All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested. Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. "Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday. For many people the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season," said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District. After consulting with lawyers, port staff believed that adding the menorah would have required adding symbols for other religions and cultures in the Northwest. The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists. Maintenance workers boxed up the trees during the graveyard shift early Saturday, when airport bosses believed few people would notice. "We decided to take the trees down because we didn't want to be exclusive," said airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt. "We're trying to be thoughtful and respectful, and will review policies after the first of the year." Bogomilsky had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn't add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows. Hanukkah begins this Friday at sundown. "They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said Bogomilsky's lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch." 03:53 PM PST on Sunday, December 10, 2006
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#83. To: randge (#82)
Yup, I agree. But when someone takes a passage way out of context like was done I will call them on it.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
No doubt he won't take any phone calls that express how the majority of the people feel about having a happy festive decoration removed, that originated in the folklore of europe, that is not a symbol of Christmas or anything religious like a Nativity scene or a giant menorah.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Take a close look at that little sign tacked on the wall, in the upper right. The word 'christian' is there. I can't make out the rest.
Christmas trees are going back up at Sea-Tac airport The holiday trees that went away in the middle of the night are back. Tonight, Port of Seattle staff began putting up the trees they had taken down Friday night after a local rabbi requested that a Hanukkah menorah also be displayed. Port officials said the rabbi's lawyer had threatened to imminently file a lawsuit, leaving them with insufficient time to consider all the issues. A nationwide furor erupted over the weekend as news of the trees' removal spread, with a flood of calls to Port officials and harshly worded e-mails to Jewish organizations. Today, Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky said he would not file a lawsuit and the Port, in response, said it would put the trees back up. "This has been an unfortunate situation for all of us in Seattle," Port of Seattle Commission President Pat Davis said in a statement. "The rabbi never asked us to remove the trees; it was the Port's decision based on what we knew at the time. We very much appreciate the rabbi's willingness to work with us as we move forward." A menorah will not be displayed this year. Port spokesman Bob Parker said "we look forward to sitting down after the first of the year with not only Rabbi Bogomilsky but others as well, and finding ways to make sure there's an appropriate winter holiday representation for all faiths. We want to find out a way to celebrate the winter holidays that is sensitive to all faiths." Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're thrilled the trees are going back up." But he said he was disappointed that Port officials chose not to put up the menorah as well, pointing out there are still several days until the start of Hannukah. "I still hope that they'll consider putting the menorah up this year. But ultimately it's their decision." He also said he hopes the Port will apologize for mischaracterizations that led people to believe he was against having the trees displayed. "At the end of the day it's not about trees, but adding light to the holiday, not diminishing any light." advertising At the airport tonight, Matt Bachleda of Snohomish was playing cards while waiting for his daughter to arrive from Paris. He was surprised to see Port staff putting a tree back up in the baggage claim area. "It looks like Christmas is back," he said. The reaction to the trees' removal had been swift and vociferous. News outlets nationwide picked up the story. "There's been such an outcry from the public — from people of all faiths — who believe that the trees should be reinstalled," Davis said. "I'm very thankful that we can return the trees and get back to running our airport during this very busy holiday season." Port Commissioner John Creighton said he had been swamped with e-mails, 99.9 percent of which supported putting the trees put back up. "I'm overjoyed as to the resolution," Creighton said. "I'm very happy we were able to reach an agreement that was acceptable to the rabbi and to us." Creighton said he personally would've preferred the airport also put up a menorah this year. But "there's a fair amount of sensitvity at the airport. Whatever we do, we do after putting some thought into it." The situation began rather quietly back in late October or early November when Mitchell Stein, a construction consultant for the Port, contacted a Port staffer saying he'd like to put up a large menorah near the Christmas tree at the international arrival hall. Stein, who is Jewish and is friends with Bogomilsky, said he thought it would be a "great opportunity for the Port to show their joy and commitment to diversity." Over the next several weeks, though, he said, he was referred to several different people on staff, who told him different things about whether a menorah would be allowed. Stein said Harvey Grad, the rabbi's attorney, contacted the Port last week and sent officials there a legal brief as a way of spurring action, given that Hanukkah was coming up, and to let the Port know the legal precedents involved in the issue. It was not intended to be threatening, Stein said. When Port commissioners "told us just before Shabbat that they were taking down all the Christmas trees, we were totally aghast." But some Port commissioners said they first heard about a threatened lawsuit Thursday. "From what we were made to understand, if we didn't accede to the group's demands," they would file a lawsuit by the next day, Creighton said. "At the time, it seemed to be a reasonable solution to remove the Christmas trees." Not only the Port, but local Jewish organizations, felt the consequences of that decision. Robert Jacobs, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League, said about 14 organizations or rabbis had reported receiving hate e-mail. On Monday, his organization was advising local Jewish institutions that have received significant numbers of hate e-mails to consider having security during Hannukah and other holiday season events. This is not the first public clash over the traditional symbols of Christmas. For years, judges — including those of the U.S. Supreme Court — have been sorting out disputes over how nativity scenes and Christmas trees can be displayed in the lobbies of public buildings, in downtown plazas and in parks. The furor has been building for years. Last month, the Alliance Defense Fund, a religion-based legal aid group in Arizona, announced it had lined up an army of attorneys who were prepared to defend the tradition of Christmas in schools and on public property. "Frankly, it's ridiculous that Americans have to think twice about whether it's okay to say 'Merry Christmas,'" the group's president Alan Sears said. Federal law prohibits government entities from endorsing any religious symbols, proselytizing for religion or preferring any one religion over another, said John Strait, an associate professor of law at Seattle University. He said the Christmas holiday has become so secular that many symbols associated with it, such as the Christmas tree, have simply become symbols of the holiday. But legal debates rage over just how religious some symbols, such as the nativity scene, actually are. Strait said the menorah has achieved about the same religious status as a nativity scene. Stewart Jay, a law professor at the University of Washington, admits that the rules aren't always so clear. A holiday display, he said, is allowed as long as it mixes several holiday symbols and traditions. The Port of Seattle, Strait and Jay agree, could have allowed the menorah along with its Christmas tree in such a way that it would not have been an endorsement of religion. "And that would have been the end of it," Strait said. In fact, the Christmas trees on their own might have been problematic, Jay said. Adding a menorahmight have given the Port some legal cover. Across Washington, holiday displays and celebrations reflect the diversity of ways public and private bodies have found to recognize the holidays. Each year — for many years — Seattle City Hall has featured a Christmas tree, menorah and Kwanzaa display, the mayor's spokeswoman, Marianne Bichsel said. "We want to make sure that however people choose to celebrate this time of year, that it is honored," she said. In many school districts across the state, including Seattle and Bellevue, any holiday program or decorations must be tied to curriculum, officials there said. The city of Redmond celebrates the season with displays of evergreen branches with white lights, poinsettias and wreathes inside City Hall. Outside, an evergreen tree, part of the city's landscaping, is decorated with multi-colored lights. King County opts for "giving trees" in the lobby of the court house and the county administrative building. The trees include the names and gift wishes of people in need during the holiday, spokeswoman Carolyn Dunkin said. Last year, a Catholic lawmaker from Spokane and his supporters stirred up a hornets' nest when they sang Christmas carols in front of the giant holiday tree that dominates the Capitol rotunda in Olympia. Rep. John Ahern, a Republican, said the Washington-grown fir is a holiday tree, not a Christmas tree. Next week, following a lighting ceremony, a menorah will accompany that tree in the rotunda, said Steve Valandra spokesman for department of general administration, which oversees the capitol grounds. Staff writer Jennifer Sullivan contributed to this report. Janet Tu: 206-464-7727 or jtu@seattletimes.com; Lornet Turnbull: 206-464-2420 or lturnbull@seattletimes.com
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Talmud?
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Listening to the Fox radio station coming in this morning. They are spinning like a top. They had a series of rabbis on explaining how the Menorah was not really a religious symbol, just an icon for the season like a Christmas Tree. They are blaming "secular humanists" for the removal of the trees without explaining precisely why they are at fault or how they are even involved. I suppose we are supposed to think they hyptnotized the rabbi and forced him to threaten a lawsuit. The rubes are lapping it up with a spoon.
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http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=41282&Disp=86#C86 The trees are back, click link to post #86. Port officials said the rabbi's lawyer had threatened to imminently file a lawsuit, leaving them with insufficient time to consider all the issues.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Here near where I is, a coastal town, originally created as a refuge from the Puritanical jihadis of Salem, Massaschusetts, a few days after the New Year, Christmas trees are gathered near the beach and set on fire. A nice, big bonfire, rather paganistic, and the kids love it!
Now there is a holiday tradition that I could get into!!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
ok, lets talk about "out of context". Whether Jere 10 is talking about christmas trees or the predecessor thereof, The Man in Charge told us not to cut a tree out of the forest and adorn it with silver and gold. Well, that is enough for me. Not for any reason nor any season, in the name of any God or religion will I cut a tree and decorate it. Once again, I do not try to "interpret" scripture, I read and follow it, but do not try to make it into something else.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
It is a thrilling spectacle. Especially if there's a good moon floating nearby, some of the local goth-wiccan teenagers even do a circle dance around it. Usually too cold for any nudity or toplessness, even if the moms and cops weren't around. Drat.
Stop right there. The passage is about use of carved gilded idols. Not about trees decorated for some proto-Christmas ceremony. Any attempt to say otherwise is an affront to truth - historic and theological.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The Puritans of Plymouth actually attacked other settlements in the early years they considered "ungodly". Weirdly- Salem was created by a group that wanted to get away from Plymouth's religious oppression.
George Gordon bump
Good point. I DO wish I knew Greek, along with Hebrew, and I'm sure I could add in quite a few more languages I wish I knew..... I cede. You may be right about the "christmas tree" thing... BUT, show me where in Scripture "christmas" is proclaimed a holiday. (Well, I haven't read the Holman Christian Standard Bible, it MIGHT be in there - mixed in somewhere in the cucumber patch - but if it is it'll be guarded by a scarecrow) THAT is my point. Christmas to me has no meaning - it is nothing. I don't celebrate it; and in fact it is only another winter day. I will work on christmas - no problem... BUT don't ask me to work on the Sabbath.... So if you want to celebrate a HOLY DAY which was made "holy" by man instead of the Creator don't let me get in your way... Have fun and enjoy the "season". Pagan (even if they're only just the villagers) traditions are simply that - and have no validity whatsoever with me. I'll just leave this thread with this verse (from the KJV, I can't say what the evangelicals and HCSB have it translated as) and since it's from NEW TESTAMENT, and PAUL to boot!!!!,all the "christians" can take heart: Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Precisely. If I am wrong about 'Christmas', it doesn't matter. I am not disobeying the King of Kings by NOT observing 'Christmas', and I'm saving a lot time and money, to boot. :-)
The Church proclaimed it a holiday. The same Church that created the scripture and that predates the writing of the New Testament. The holiday it proclaimed does not resemble what it has become in the USA/Protestant countries. But beyond us trying to convert each other my point is just to be accurate to history. I objected to the passages above being used as proof that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible. That is all.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That is not what Christ said. "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Mat 22:21
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Then buy an artificial tree. Problem solved.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Glad you were there to set us straight on it!!!! NO, it ISN'T what the Messiah said.... READ the passage!!! It was spoken by PETER. But the Messiah DID say in Matthew 7:6 (According to Holman's) Don't give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before pigs, or they will trample them with their feet, turn, and tear you to pieces. So let me get this straight. You are tearing a few of us to pieces over a christmas tree opinion when NOWHERE in Scripture can you find that christmas is a HOLY DAY as mandated by the Creator?????? You readily admit it's a creation of MAN!!! YOU PIG!!!!!
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Note to self: LUKE wrote Acts, not Paul.... Kinda sucks when accuracy counts and I make a fuck up like this....
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
And it was the first time in history.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
OK.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
OK, unless I am as ignorant as you must think that I am, I do believe that you are either dodging the question that innieway was asking, or you simply cannot comprehend it. He was asking if you admitted that the so called "Holiday" of christmas was a creation of man, and somehow now you are talking about man creating the church. Well duh, of course man created religion. God simply founded laws for us to abide by and we have twisted that all to hell (sounds like some threads I have read lately). Second, I have no idea what god is spoken of and honoured in the Holman Bible, but the God that I fear and hold dear is the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. THIS GOD NEVER MADE HIMSELF A MAN!!! He sent us a son, but the christ was never, is never and will never be a GOD All of the Messiah's teachings were simple, that man had already gone astray, and reminded us over and over to follow his father. He NEVER stated look at me, I am God but continually pointed us towards his father, as he was sent to do. Of course I can only speak for the Bibles I have read, maybe it is different in your scarecrow book that bears the title of Bible.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Yes, it is a creation of man. That is not a problem since that is part of Church tradition - to honor saints - to set aside a day to celebrate and honor them. Protestants who are later day Christians who do not come from the original seed of Christ may have a problem with it. It is an absurd question/premise as well. I know Protestant nuts think Jesus wrote the New Testament and the Bible but he did not. Men wrote those Gospels. That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Most every sect on earth seeing the others as hertics, the whole sad circle of tribalism and pomposity. All claiming they are for peace, yet it seems when given half a chance mass murder is the main service to be held in their church. Organized religion and their followers have alot to be weighed in the balance. A few are humble - many are full of hubris. How is one to respond to men like Robertson (if he is the one, to me these guys are all one sicko entity) who asked for the assaination of Chavez, if we are Christians? Or the the character who claimed homos were responsible for 9-11. Or this rapture nonsense. And the killing video game based on it. Islam is full of sickos, and from what I can see, the US Christian movement is as well. Note in Denver today we had yet another evangelical bigshot having to admit he had homo liasons. Just a rant.
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Me too. Seems Destro is saying the Catholics have it right, and everyone else is going to hell... Of course, that's the common thinking among ALL organized religions isn't it? I mean the Lutherans know they're right, and the rest just "went astray" somewhere; the Methodists know they have the "upper hand" in getting into Heaven; the Baptists know they're right and "pity all the ones that aren't Baptist we won't be seeing them in Heaven"; the Catholics KNOW they're right - after all it was JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF that started the Catholic church, and ALL other Christian religions are merely offshoots of Catholocism and therefore CAN'T be right about anything (but at least the others get to sit it out in Purgatory or Limbo or somewhere for a while to think about it and realize the folly of their ways and then MIGHT get to go to Heaven); the Muslims are positive theirs is the way, and as a super bonus they get 70 virgins when they get to Heaven; the Mormons have already been to Heaven and now all they're doing is living a life on earth to prove themselves worthy to get back to Heaven; and the Wiccans think we're ALL NUTS...... I'd be willing to bet that the followers of Mithraism were just as adamant about the Holy Trinity they believed in as are today's Christians, as were the Babylonians about theirs, and the Egyptians about theirs..... I wonder if the followers of any of the other religions actually PRACTICE what is in the "book" they CLAIM to follow, or if they do like Christians and just practice what is convenient for them and ignore the rest by way of some rationalization that "it doesn't mean that"????? I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs - which by extension would mean avoiding DOCTORS... Like I said, I can't speak Greek, BUT call it witchcraft call it drugs call it whatever the hell you want to I FOLLOW SCRIPTURE and AVOID DOCTORS AT ALL COST!!!!! Been many many years since I've been to one. I guess I'm ignorant, but at least I think I have enough common sense to be able to tell what Scripture is saying, and can follow it.... We all know Christians don't have a problem with going to the doctor to get "drugs" - even if they are told NOT to in Scripture....
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
You know every time I see a Christian do some good work or make a personal sacrifice of some sort, my early Christian training kicks in and I think to myself "Thesw Christians really are good folks. Christianity does send out a special message to us all." Then some clown come out with some needlessly divisive poison, and I remember why I fell from the way. Comments such as these are poison. Such vain and pompous assertions mined out of scripture of one kind or another are the very bombs that Shia and Sunni toss at each other today. They are the original seed of distrust and hatred that are the ally of nearly every quarrel over rights and property and honor on this earth. They make little wars out of those quarrels and big wars out of little wars. It makes me literally sick to hear such twaddle come from the lips of an educated man. My forbears were protestants, and protestants too do not lack ideological venom. Listening to Ian Paisley on the TV when I was growing up used to make me ashamed that I once shared a confession with that man. Your no doubt sincere observation, sir, is a just one more senseless provocation in a world that has had quite enough of them. It is a sin.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
Jesus specifically organized his followers. He specifically said his church should be one. Note that I seek to convert no one - I am a classicist and a historian - the statement said above is a heresy in the Greek meaning of the word. If you prefer a more neutral term how about the views expressed above are deviation from the original?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
No. The Catholic Church is also a deviation from the original - for example the early church never held concepts like immaculate conception and original sin like the Catholics did and the original Church allowed for married clergy. Those are just some examples - I can go on with other heretical notions the Catholics hold....
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Sorry. Some Protestant faiths - especially but not including some American brands - make me sick. I grew up reading their crap - like Satan is dancing every time I listen to Rock music and that Rock music is a Satanic plot. Look at what Protestant website the above conversation was linked to. I view Protestants the same way I view feminists and multiculturists that want to throw out the cannon of classical civilization for a new idea or a new way of thinking.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That is why I react in horror to such ravings. I am a historian - my interest in theology is to understand the history. Language and meaning of words changes over time. For example 'cool' does not only mean cold temperature today. Mad once meant crazy now it is used mostly to mean angry. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek - the Lingua Franca of its time. Like all languages some words have slang meanings specific to their times and practices. During the era of the New Testament there was a wide spread practice of going to potion makers who sold you potions. In the Koine Greek the term was pharmaka - but that also meant real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time. A straight translation of words from the past is not possible without understanding how the words were used by the people of that era as well. The above excerpt refers to avoiding potion makers not medical MD doctors. That you use that to avoid doctors on a religious basis is so wrong I am in pain for you and I am angry at whatever religious cult made you think this.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
You, sir, are like every sectarian that I have ever known. You look at life through a toilet paper tube and you think it is a telescope. You study Latin and Greek and Hebrew and Arabic. And you become militant. Now you are looking through a paper towel roll. You can see to the ends of the universe. When your perspective is sufficiently diminished you begin killing your fellow man. This is true of marxists and other sad dogmtics and relics of what were once healthy human beings. Enjoy your dance with Mr. Satan. You're made for each other.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
I am tolerant. "Tolerant, but not stupid! Look, just because you have to tolerate something doesn't mean you have to approve of it! ..."Tolerate" means you're just putting up with it! You tolerate a crying child sitting next to you on the airplane or, or you tolerate a bad cold. It can still piss you off!" -- Mr. Garrison 'South Park'.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
OK, I'll accept that since I did not know the difference or that there was such a thing as Koine Greek. OK, so the word used in the New Testament which was mistranslated as "witchcraft" in the KJV was used to mean "real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time". Your words, not mine - but I'll buy that. I'm sure you know. You are the Greek linguistic expert. I was under the impression that you just explained how the word pharmaka was used by the people of the New Testament writing era. So if it meant "real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time", then why does it NOW mean ONLY "potion makers" and NOT medical MD doctors??? You seem to be contradicting yourself. In fact you ARE contradicting yourself. Did not the Creator tell us He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow??? I suppose He saw the folly in His ways from time to time (apparently He changed His mind on things like eating pork. At one time it was NOT to be eaten, but I guess He realized that Law was a mistake for one reason or another so He changed it to allow us to eat all the pig we want) BUT if that's the case then He's a LIAR because He changed - which would mean that He ISN'T the same today as yesterday... And we're just left to guess at to how He'll be tomorrow.... WELL, I don't believe that!!!! If you want to, I don't care. No more than you care what I believe. And the TRUTH is it doesn't make a damn one way or the other what EITHER of us believes!!!! There is a TRUTH in the matter, and that TRUTH exists - INDEPENDENT of what either of us believes... One day we shall KNOW the TRUTH..... That "religious cult" is Scripture... I do NOT listen to the "pulpit parrots", and am not a member of any "cult"... In Scripture we were told by the Creator that He gave us everything we need. I avoid doctors - and ONE reason is that I never get sick. PERHAPS that is a reward by the CREATOR for following HIS HEALTH LAWS, which include the food laws. PERHAPS His food laws were given to us to keep the immune system which HE created strong!!! So there is no need for you to be "in pain" for me!!! I'm NOT in pain, and if you are DON'T blame it on either ME or the Creator... Just go to the doctor (who uses the word "practice" to describe his career - which implies that he is just that, PRACTICING - not COMPETENT) and take whatever poison he prescribes to you... And while you're on that poison you may want to pick up a copy of a Physician's Desk Reference and read about all the ILL effects of the "medicine" you are taking. You might be very surprised to learn that for example antibiotics can actually cause heart disease (not my words, cited straight from a PDR)... As for me - I'm going to put my trust and faith in what the Creator said - and avoid any profession which uses as it's symbol 2 snakes climbing up a pole!!!! Maybe I'm loony, but it seems to me that in Scripture a snake played a huge part in the downfall of man.. NOT what I want to put my faith in!!! BTW, you might want to check out the numbers on iatrogenic "disease"; diseases and deaths CAUSED by doctors and their drugs. You might be shocked. "Legal" drugs (prescription and OTC) kill more people each year than all the "illegal" ones combined... I'd say that's a poor track record. Like I said, I don't want nor care to attempt to "change" your beliefs. I know you aren't going to change mine... I'll live as I see fit, and I'm sure you will too. So you can reply to this if you want - but I'm done.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
One more time. Pharmaka has dual meanings and to get at the meaning in the New Testament you need to know the context. In the 1st century AD pharmakia meant potions and it could also mean regular medicine depending on the context. That does not mean regular medicine was considered witchcraft. A Koine Greek speaker would understand what context the word was used in. For example take the word 'mad'. Did calling someone mad mean they are angry or crazy? An old English speaker of Shakespear's day would understand the context of 'mad' as meaning crazy while a speaker of American English would understand 'mad' meaning angry. Clear? If not my apologies.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Mmmm, tolerant. You've hit on the right word there. Being tolerant means that you will accept a certain amount of what you otherwise find repugnant. I infer from you writings that there is a great deal of stuff that you find repugnant. No need to tolerate me, though. You'll find me rather intolerant.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Most every sect on earth seeing the others as hertics, the whole sad circle of tribalism and pomposity. All claiming they are for peace, yet it seems when given half a chance mass murder is the main service to be held in their church. Amen. Muh gawd is the true one, No mine! No Mine! Off with yer head! A brief history of Monotheism.
You may begin apologizing now. You are so full of "education" that you do nothing but talk in circles. All you care to do is pick and argue. No matter what point is placed in from of you, you must debate it. Then, when allowed time to come full circle, you end up supporting the original point that you were debating. I have to absolutely agree with Randge on this point, but unfortunately you put crap in the tube before calling it a telescope. For instance, innieway asked in post 31, (this is christmas thread), to which you had to stand up as the Greek expert you are, and pick this all apart, as per you MO, and reply, in part with..(post 32, this is christmas thread) so when innieway applied your definition to scripture, you had to say that he had it all wrong again, and eventually came back around to the original statement that innieway made saying that the scripture was correctly translated using the word witchcraft to describe that actions of the people that were going on and that we were told by God, not to follow!!! destro, post 119, Pharmaka has dual meanings and to get at the meaning in the New Testament you need to know the context. In the 1st century AD pharmakia meant potions and it could also mean regular medicine depending on the context. Point number two that I gleaned from your babble is simply, apparently your beloved laguage, as you described it Greek is probably the most scholarly and exact language humanity has ever developed is not as exact as you say, or we would know if scripture were describing drugs, doctors or witchcraft, without endless debate. Once again, your babbling has disproved you. Also, in post 99,you stated, The Church proclaimed it a holiday. The same Church that created the scripture and that predates the writing of the New Testament.If the church had created scripture, I would not even bother with it at all, except to burn it. Religion, over the years, has proven to be of the most corrupt and agenda motivated organizations in the world. Why in the hell would I want to follow their teachings??? Oh, yeah, I DON'T Because God "wrote" scripture, having man put pen to paper for him. I do NOT affiliate nor follow with any religious group or organization. I simply read and follow God's word. I believe I clarified the following of your accusing drivel above :post 108, destro It is an absurd question/premise as well. I know Protestant nuts think Jesus wrote the New Testament and the Bible but he did not. Men wrote those Gospels. More of your accusing drivel:That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies. You also seem to have a thing with using the term heresy in a negative light. I would not necessarily recommend that here on the forum, because in a sense, everyone on the forum is a heretic in one sense of the word or another. Your definition of heresy: post 112, I would recommend that before you accuse anyone of thinking a certain way or being affiliated with a certain group, that you should quit being completely ignorant of what others are saying. Instead you take everything out of context and twist it into something completely different. My final point being that I am always up for an intelligent debate, but not wasting my time with someone who wants to nitpick in circles. My advice, take your damn toilet paper tube to the nearest mirror, and argue with yourself all you want. I refuse to waste any more of my time with you.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Careful on the tolerance but, You know he is the authority, I mean hell, he got his definition of tolerance from a cartoon that has more vulgarity in a half hour than I encounter in my life in a month. But Southpark is the authoritative truth on this one!!!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
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#84. To: Jethro Tull (#80)
Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, Host
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#85. To: robin (#84)
#86. To: Jethro Tull, ALL (#79)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#87. To: Jethro Tull (#85)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#88. To: robin (#0)
(Edited)
#89. To: ... (#88)
(Edited)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#90. To: Ferret Mike, Tom007, Destro, Burkeman1 (#52)
#91. To: swarthyguy (#90)
Christmas trees are gathered near the beach and set on fire. A nice, big bonfire,
#92. To: Destro, who knows what evil (#83)
But when someone takes a passage way out of context like was done I will call them on it.
#93. To: ladybug (#91)
#94. To: ladybug, who knows what evil (#92)
Whether Jere 10 is talking about christmas trees or the predecessor thereof
#95. To: swarthyguy (#90)
#96. To: ladybug (#54)
Maybe I am a little hard core on the subject or just a stick-in-the-mud, but I tend to look at the Bible as a Law Book more than a religious tool.
-Thomas Paine
#97. To: Destro, Who Knows What Evil, Randge, Tom007, Lodwick (#77)
Then learn Greek like I did. How about not using whatever kind of translated version out of context like using lines meant to be against the carving of gilded idols and try to use that to show that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible.
#98. To: innieway (#97)
We ought to obey God rather than men.
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#99. To: innieway (#97)
You may be right about the "christmas tree" thing... BUT, show me where in Scripture "christmas" is proclaimed a holiday.
#100. To: who knows what evil, innieway (#98)
We ought to obey God rather than men.
#101. To: ladybug, swarthyguy (#92)
The Man in Charge told us not to cut a tree out of the forest and adorn it with silver and gold. Well, that is enough for me.
#102. To: Destro (#100)
That is not what Christ said.
#103. To: All (#97)
(Edited)
and PAUL to boot!!!!
#104. To: innieway (#102)
You readily admit it's a creation of MAN
#105. To: Destro (#104)
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man.
#106. To: innieway (#105)
And it was the first time in history.
#107. To: Destro (#104)
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man
#108. To: ladybug (#107)
He was asking if you admitted that the so called "Holiday" of christmas was a creation of man
#109. To: Destro, ladybug (#108)
That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
#110. To: tom007, Destro (#109)
That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
#111. To: Destro (#108)
(Edited)
Protestants who are later day Christians who do not come from the original seed of Christ
#112. To: tom007 (#109)
Organized religion and their followers have alot to be weighed in the balance.
#113. To: innieway, tom007 (#110)
Seems Destro is saying the Catholics have it right, and everyone else is going to hell
#114. To: randge (#111)
#115. To: innieway, tom007 (#110)
(Edited)
I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs - which by extension would mean avoiding DOCTORS... Like I said, I can't speak Greek, BUT call it witchcraft call it drugs call it whatever the hell you want to I FOLLOW SCRIPTURE and AVOID DOCTORS AT ALL COST!!!!!
#116. To: Destro (#114)
(Edited)
#117. To: randge (#116)
#118. To: Destro (#115)
The New Testament was written in Koine Greek
During the era of the New Testament there was a wide spread practice of going to potion makers who sold you potions. In the Koine Greek the term was pharmaka - but that also meant real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time.
A straight translation of words from the past is not possible without understanding how the words were used by the people of that era as well. The above excerpt refers to avoiding potion makers not medical MD doctors.
That you use that to avoid doctors on a religious basis is so wrong I am in pain for you and I am angry at whatever religious cult made you think this.
#119. To: innieway (#118)
(Edited)
OK, so the word used in the New Testament which was mistranslated as "witchcraft" in the KJV was used to mean "real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time". Your words, not mine - but I'll buy that. I'm sure you know. You are the Greek linguistic expert.
#120. To: Destro (#117)
I am tolerant.
#121. To: tom007 (#109)
#122. To: Destro (#119)
Clear? If not my apologies.
You look at life through a toilet paper tube and you think it is a telescope.
Are we not told in Scripture NOT to participate in witchcraft?????? (At least the KJV does, I can't say for the HCSB) AND what is the Greek word for witchcraft?????? Is it not PHARMAKIA????????
Pharmakia does not mean witchcraft it means drugs in Greek
innieway post 110, I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs ,
A two year old could plainly see that there you have come full circle with all your knowledge, to support a statement that you originally were trying to disprove. I did gather two points out of all your babbling. You do not think that any of this has anything to do with doctors, well, innieway and I both do. Personally, doctors have done me nothing but physical and permanent HARM due to their incompetence. I firmly believe that God granted us everything we need to live healthful lives, including the laws to follow to keep us from major illness. Of course, if you do not abide his laws, and use his gifts, you will need these pill pushers, who sent you with little notes to the PHARMACY (dang that sounds like the original Greek Pharmakia, don't it)to get your pills to survive all of the ill's that you have brought upon yourself. And of course most people has a major illness will NOT even CONSIDER that they may have been able to do something to prevent it. OK, live your life in a state of illness, I won't stop you, I am simply saying that there is a better way. It is more than a matter of whether or not the Lord told us not to go to doctors, but the fact that he ensured that if we truly follow him, there is no need!!!
I never denied the Holy Trinity, I believe that there is God(the father), The Messiah(the son), and the Holy Ghost. I simply denied that god ever made himself a man as you had claimed in an earlier post. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are not themselves God, for there is only one God, his son and the Holy Ghost are two other separate entities, making three Holy entities, total, hence, a trinity (FYI prefix tri=three, debate that!) the statement said above is a heresy in the Greek meaning of the word. If you prefer a more neutral term how about the views expressed above are deviation from the original?
Webster definition of heresy: theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox. By extension, heresy is an opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative.
Hmmm, nothing about deviance from the ORIGINAL there, once again, debate all you want, but when using descriptive terms, in OUR language, in MODERN times, I consider Websters to be the authority, not you or the original Greek. More of your own statements:post 114, I view Protestants the same way I view feminists and multiculturists that want to throw out the cannon of classical civilization for a new idea or a new way of thinking.
For starters, I despise feminism. If you take a close look at a woman's life in Biblical times, they actually had a better life, and more rights than men. Granted those rights were different than that of a man, and not all women considered then better due to the fact that following these biblical ways meant that women had to answer to men. But when you truly look at it, women were cared for from the cradle to the grave, and had (what I believe was)a far better life than that of a modern career woman. And I life my life according to the Bible, how is that throwing out "the cannon of classical civilization"??? Seems like my life is closer to that of ancient times than your average woman today. Granted, I do work, some. But my dad called all of the shots in my life until marriage, now my sweetheart does. If I were to become a widow, Either my dad, one of my brothers, or possibly even a nephew will be responsible for me. It is not always easy having others make the final decision for you, and I can definitely see where a selfish or cruel man could make a woman's life miserable. But all of the men in my life care about what is best for me.
#123. To: randge (#120)
Mmmm, tolerant. You've hit on the right word there.
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