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Title: Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees
Source:
www.king5.com
URL Source: http://www.king5.com/localnews/stor ... ABairporttreesSW.1663eccf.html
Published: Dec 10, 2006
Author: www.king5.com
Post Date: 2006-12-10 22:04:55 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 2384
Comments: 138
Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees KING Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky SEATAC, Wash. - All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested. Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. "Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday. For many people the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season," said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District. After consulting with lawyers, port staff believed that adding the menorah would have required adding symbols for other religions and cultures in the Northwest. The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists. Maintenance workers boxed up the trees during the graveyard shift early Saturday, when airport bosses believed few people would notice. "We decided to take the trees down because we didn't want to be exclusive," said airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt. "We're trying to be thoughtful and respectful, and will review policies after the first of the year." Bogomilsky had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn't add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows. Hanukkah begins this Friday at sundown. "They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said Bogomilsky's lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch." 03:53 PM PST on Sunday, December 10, 2006
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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 109.
#35. To: Robin, Brian S, Christine, Honway, Aristeides, Diana, All (#0)
Christmas celebrates the birth of the "King of the Jews." What's this guy's problem? Doesn't anyone read scripture? (I know, I know, that's not popular to say.)
Well, yes, of course SOME of us read scripture. And I must assume, that by your comment that you are one of the people that do??? If you do read scripture, I should truly HOPE that YOU DO NOT observe Christmas, and DEFINATELY would not allow a Christmas tree in your home. And with your knowledge of scripture, I am sure that you have run across this little tidbit a time or two, and would take it to heart, but here is a refresher in case you did not realize its true implications, or its relevance to this PAGAN "Holi-day" But Christmas and Easter, the two "holiest" of Christian "Holi-days" are not days that the Bible instructs us to observe. Easter is mention ONCE in the entire 1189 Chapters of the Bible, and when researched out, it is found that the original word that it was translated from means passover. But on the other hand, Jews also celebrate Hanukkah, and that is not in the Bible either (along with other holidays). Now if anyone is curious as to why we celebrate Christmas on December 25, all they have to do is to take a good look at Mithraism. There were many likenesses between Mithraism and Christianity, in fact they had more in common than they had different. The biggest single difference in the two religions was that Mithraism did not allow women to participate. But Mithra was born on December 25, in a cave, of a virgin, and was a god that was a part of a holy trinity and so on and so forth. here is an excellent link if you would like to know more on that one.
The history goes to Constantinople and the Solviticans. The converts to Christianity wouldn't give up their Solstice celebration, so the birthday celebration got moved to Dec. 25th.
Correct, here is another great link that I just found on another thread that is going on the 4um right now. http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/Constantine.htm My point was that the basis for Christmas comes from many places, NOT ONE of them being the Bible.
I don't mind talking about the potential intermixing of old 'pagan' (which just means village folk) traditions with Christmas traditions in the West (Christmas is celebrated differently by eastern Christians) but please don't take biblical passages out of context. Jeremiah 10:3-5 deals not with idolatrous rites that resembles the use of a Christmas tree but of shaping out of wood idols of gods that are then plated with gold or silver foil. 3 for the customs of the peoples are worthless. Someone cuts down a tree from the forest; [it is] worked by the hands of a craftsman with a chisel. 4 He decorates it with silver and gold. It is fastened with hammer and nails, so it won't totter. 5 Like scarecrows in a cucumber patch, their idols cannot speak. They must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them for they can do no harm — and they cannot do any good.
I don't know what dictionary you use, but according to Webster's pagan is defined as: Main Entry: pa·gan In case you might need a little help with polytheistic, here is Webster's definition: Main Entry: poly·the·ism OUT OF CONTEXT?????? Well now, if you'll look at the KING JAMES VERSION (there are already plenty of mistranslations in there - and ALL later versions are subject to even MORE MISTRANSLATIONS) you'll find that the "chisel" referred to in the Holman Christian Standard Bible in the KJV is an axe. The word axe is taken from the original manuscript Hebrew word maaseh, which is translated as AXE, NOT CHISEL... Now lets look at verse 5 in the KJV... Jer 10:5 They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good. Lets break this down to the original Hebrew... Upright is the Hebrew miqshah which means finely decorated cultic objects. (I would say christmas trees are finely decorated cultic objects) Palm tree is from the Hebrew tomer which means palm tree. Speak is from the Hebrew dabar meaning to speak. They must needs be borne is from the Hebrew nasa meaning to lift or carry. I could go on, but apparently NOWHERE in the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS from which the translations came is there any mention of a scarecrow or a cucumber patch!!!! And speaking of context, go back to Jer 10:2 (KJV), and the first sentence reads: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen.... Now go back and reread the definition of PAGAN... Pagan and heathen are interchangeable. Worshipers of multiple gods... I would suggest that a person seeking TRUTH be very careful of what they read. Like I said, the KJV is the first (that I know of) translation of the original manuscripts into English, and there are definitely some mistranslations in there. Every subsequent translation is open to even MORE mistranslation/misguidance.. Think about it - is it not the intent of Satan to deceive as many as possible???? And what is one of his strongest "tools" available for deceit??? RELIGION - he knows Scripture better than any of us, and if he can twist it he will...
The above version is based on the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB). In any case it is about using idols made of wood covered in gold and silver foil representing Gods - not a form of proto-Christmas tree. As for what pagan means - that is what the word has morphed into in English but the original meaning of pagan (still a sur name for Italians and Spanish people) is rural folk - villagers. It is derived from the Latin pagus, whence pagani (i. e. those who live in the country), a name given to the country folk who remained heathen after the cities had become Christian. The eastern Greek Orthodox church preferred the more accurate term 'idolators'.
I was aware of that as I checked the link to the verses you posted. We all have "preferences", and I prefer NOT to use a version which has things like scarecrows and cucumber patches which apparently were NOT in the original manuscripts... That this version was put out by modern evangelicals (who for the most part are nothing but lying Israel-firsters - Hagee comes to mind here) only makes the matter worse (to me)... Now if that's the version you want to use, that's your choice; and you certainly have a right to. However MOST of the posters of "religion" on 4 seem to use the KJV Personally, I don't have any problem understanding the English used in the KJV.
Then learn Greek like I did. How about not using whatever kind of translated version out of context like using lines meant to be against the carving of gilded idols and try to use that to show that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible.
Good point. I DO wish I knew Greek, along with Hebrew, and I'm sure I could add in quite a few more languages I wish I knew..... I cede. You may be right about the "christmas tree" thing... BUT, show me where in Scripture "christmas" is proclaimed a holiday. (Well, I haven't read the Holman Christian Standard Bible, it MIGHT be in there - mixed in somewhere in the cucumber patch - but if it is it'll be guarded by a scarecrow) THAT is my point. Christmas to me has no meaning - it is nothing. I don't celebrate it; and in fact it is only another winter day. I will work on christmas - no problem... BUT don't ask me to work on the Sabbath.... So if you want to celebrate a HOLY DAY which was made "holy" by man instead of the Creator don't let me get in your way... Have fun and enjoy the "season". Pagan (even if they're only just the villagers) traditions are simply that - and have no validity whatsoever with me. I'll just leave this thread with this verse (from the KJV, I can't say what the evangelicals and HCSB have it translated as) and since it's from NEW TESTAMENT, and PAUL to boot!!!!,all the "christians" can take heart: Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Precisely. If I am wrong about 'Christmas', it doesn't matter. I am not disobeying the King of Kings by NOT observing 'Christmas', and I'm saving a lot time and money, to boot. :-)
That is not what Christ said. "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Mat 22:21
Glad you were there to set us straight on it!!!! NO, it ISN'T what the Messiah said.... READ the passage!!! It was spoken by PETER. But the Messiah DID say in Matthew 7:6 (According to Holman's) Don't give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before pigs, or they will trample them with their feet, turn, and tear you to pieces. So let me get this straight. You are tearing a few of us to pieces over a christmas tree opinion when NOWHERE in Scripture can you find that christmas is a HOLY DAY as mandated by the Creator?????? You readily admit it's a creation of MAN!!! YOU PIG!!!!!
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man.
OK, unless I am as ignorant as you must think that I am, I do believe that you are either dodging the question that innieway was asking, or you simply cannot comprehend it. He was asking if you admitted that the so called "Holiday" of christmas was a creation of man, and somehow now you are talking about man creating the church. Well duh, of course man created religion. God simply founded laws for us to abide by and we have twisted that all to hell (sounds like some threads I have read lately). Second, I have no idea what god is spoken of and honoured in the Holman Bible, but the God that I fear and hold dear is the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. THIS GOD NEVER MADE HIMSELF A MAN!!! He sent us a son, but the christ was never, is never and will never be a GOD All of the Messiah's teachings were simple, that man had already gone astray, and reminded us over and over to follow his father. He NEVER stated look at me, I am God but continually pointed us towards his father, as he was sent to do. Of course I can only speak for the Bibles I have read, maybe it is different in your scarecrow book that bears the title of Bible.
Yes, it is a creation of man. That is not a problem since that is part of Church tradition - to honor saints - to set aside a day to celebrate and honor them. Protestants who are later day Christians who do not come from the original seed of Christ may have a problem with it. It is an absurd question/premise as well. I know Protestant nuts think Jesus wrote the New Testament and the Bible but he did not. Men wrote those Gospels. That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Most every sect on earth seeing the others as hertics, the whole sad circle of tribalism and pomposity. All claiming they are for peace, yet it seems when given half a chance mass murder is the main service to be held in their church. Organized religion and their followers have alot to be weighed in the balance. A few are humble - many are full of hubris. How is one to respond to men like Robertson (if he is the one, to me these guys are all one sicko entity) who asked for the assaination of Chavez, if we are Christians? Or the the character who claimed homos were responsible for 9-11. Or this rapture nonsense. And the killing video game based on it. Islam is full of sickos, and from what I can see, the US Christian movement is as well. Note in Denver today we had yet another evangelical bigshot having to admit he had homo liasons. Just a rant.
#110. To: tom007, Destro (#109)
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Me too. Seems Destro is saying the Catholics have it right, and everyone else is going to hell... Of course, that's the common thinking among ALL organized religions isn't it? I mean the Lutherans know they're right, and the rest just "went astray" somewhere; the Methodists know they have the "upper hand" in getting into Heaven; the Baptists know they're right and "pity all the ones that aren't Baptist we won't be seeing them in Heaven"; the Catholics KNOW they're right - after all it was JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF that started the Catholic church, and ALL other Christian religions are merely offshoots of Catholocism and therefore CAN'T be right about anything (but at least the others get to sit it out in Purgatory or Limbo or somewhere for a while to think about it and realize the folly of their ways and then MIGHT get to go to Heaven); the Muslims are positive theirs is the way, and as a super bonus they get 70 virgins when they get to Heaven; the Mormons have already been to Heaven and now all they're doing is living a life on earth to prove themselves worthy to get back to Heaven; and the Wiccans think we're ALL NUTS...... I'd be willing to bet that the followers of Mithraism were just as adamant about the Holy Trinity they believed in as are today's Christians, as were the Babylonians about theirs, and the Egyptians about theirs..... I wonder if the followers of any of the other religions actually PRACTICE what is in the "book" they CLAIM to follow, or if they do like Christians and just practice what is convenient for them and ignore the rest by way of some rationalization that "it doesn't mean that"????? I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs - which by extension would mean avoiding DOCTORS... Like I said, I can't speak Greek, BUT call it witchcraft call it drugs call it whatever the hell you want to I FOLLOW SCRIPTURE and AVOID DOCTORS AT ALL COST!!!!! Been many many years since I've been to one. I guess I'm ignorant, but at least I think I have enough common sense to be able to tell what Scripture is saying, and can follow it.... We all know Christians don't have a problem with going to the doctor to get "drugs" - even if they are told NOT to in Scripture....
Jesus specifically organized his followers. He specifically said his church should be one. Note that I seek to convert no one - I am a classicist and a historian - the statement said above is a heresy in the Greek meaning of the word. If you prefer a more neutral term how about the views expressed above are deviation from the original?
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Most every sect on earth seeing the others as hertics, the whole sad circle of tribalism and pomposity. All claiming they are for peace, yet it seems when given half a chance mass murder is the main service to be held in their church. Amen. Muh gawd is the true one, No mine! No Mine! Off with yer head! A brief history of Monotheism.
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#48. To: SKYDRIFTER, Destro, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#35)
(Edited)
Christmas celebrates the birth of the "King of the Jews." What's this guy's problem? Doesn't anyone read scripture?
Jer 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
No where that I have found in the Bible tells us to celebrate any birthday, and I have never found mention of this "Christ's Mass" or that it was to be observed as Holy. Now there are several other occasions that ARE mentioned in scripture that ARE to be observed as such, but of course, you never hear anyone mention the Feast of Trumpets, Feast of Weeks, Feast of the Tabernacle, and so on. Jew's are the only ones commonly KNOWN to observe passover (any one other than a Jew that would celebrate Passover is just weird, right??)
Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
#49. To: ladybug (#48)
#50. To: SKYDRIFTER (#49)
The history goes to Constantinople and the Solviticans. The converts to Christianity wouldn't give up their Solstice celebration, so the birthday celebration got moved to Dec. 25th.
#51. To: SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#50)
(Edited)
#53. To: Destro (#51)
I don't mind talking about the potential intermixing of old 'pagan' (which just means village folk) traditions
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
belief in or worship of more than one god but please don't take biblical passages out of context.
#55. To: innieway (#53)
#75. To: Destro (#55)
The above version is based on the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB).
#77. To: innieway (#75)
and I prefer NOT to use a version
#97. To: Destro, Who Knows What Evil, Randge, Tom007, Lodwick (#77)
Then learn Greek like I did. How about not using whatever kind of translated version out of context like using lines meant to be against the carving of gilded idols and try to use that to show that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible.
#98. To: innieway (#97)
We ought to obey God rather than men.
#100. To: who knows what evil, innieway (#98)
We ought to obey God rather than men.
#102. To: Destro (#100)
That is not what Christ said.
#104. To: innieway (#102)
You readily admit it's a creation of MAN
#107. To: Destro (#104)
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man
#108. To: ladybug (#107)
He was asking if you admitted that the so called "Holiday" of christmas was a creation of man
#109. To: Destro, ladybug (#108)
That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
Replies to Comment # 109. That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
#112. To: tom007 (#109)
Organized religion and their followers have alot to be weighed in the balance.
#121. To: tom007 (#109)
End Trace Mode for Comment # 109.