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Title: Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees
Source:
www.king5.com
URL Source: http://www.king5.com/localnews/stor ... ABairporttreesSW.1663eccf.html
Published: Dec 10, 2006
Author: www.king5.com
Post Date: 2006-12-10 22:04:55 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 2389
Comments: 138
Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees KING Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky SEATAC, Wash. - All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested. Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. "Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday. For many people the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season," said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District. After consulting with lawyers, port staff believed that adding the menorah would have required adding symbols for other religions and cultures in the Northwest. The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists. Maintenance workers boxed up the trees during the graveyard shift early Saturday, when airport bosses believed few people would notice. "We decided to take the trees down because we didn't want to be exclusive," said airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt. "We're trying to be thoughtful and respectful, and will review policies after the first of the year." Bogomilsky had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn't add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows. Hanukkah begins this Friday at sundown. "They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said Bogomilsky's lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch." 03:53 PM PST on Sunday, December 10, 2006
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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 130.
#35. To: Robin, Brian S, Christine, Honway, Aristeides, Diana, All (#0)
Christmas celebrates the birth of the "King of the Jews." What's this guy's problem? Doesn't anyone read scripture? (I know, I know, that's not popular to say.)
Well, yes, of course SOME of us read scripture. And I must assume, that by your comment that you are one of the people that do??? If you do read scripture, I should truly HOPE that YOU DO NOT observe Christmas, and DEFINATELY would not allow a Christmas tree in your home. And with your knowledge of scripture, I am sure that you have run across this little tidbit a time or two, and would take it to heart, but here is a refresher in case you did not realize its true implications, or its relevance to this PAGAN "Holi-day" But Christmas and Easter, the two "holiest" of Christian "Holi-days" are not days that the Bible instructs us to observe. Easter is mention ONCE in the entire 1189 Chapters of the Bible, and when researched out, it is found that the original word that it was translated from means passover. But on the other hand, Jews also celebrate Hanukkah, and that is not in the Bible either (along with other holidays). Now if anyone is curious as to why we celebrate Christmas on December 25, all they have to do is to take a good look at Mithraism. There were many likenesses between Mithraism and Christianity, in fact they had more in common than they had different. The biggest single difference in the two religions was that Mithraism did not allow women to participate. But Mithra was born on December 25, in a cave, of a virgin, and was a god that was a part of a holy trinity and so on and so forth. here is an excellent link if you would like to know more on that one.
The history goes to Constantinople and the Solviticans. The converts to Christianity wouldn't give up their Solstice celebration, so the birthday celebration got moved to Dec. 25th.
Correct, here is another great link that I just found on another thread that is going on the 4um right now. http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/Constantine.htm My point was that the basis for Christmas comes from many places, NOT ONE of them being the Bible.
I don't mind talking about the potential intermixing of old 'pagan' (which just means village folk) traditions with Christmas traditions in the West (Christmas is celebrated differently by eastern Christians) but please don't take biblical passages out of context. Jeremiah 10:3-5 deals not with idolatrous rites that resembles the use of a Christmas tree but of shaping out of wood idols of gods that are then plated with gold or silver foil. 3 for the customs of the peoples are worthless. Someone cuts down a tree from the forest; [it is] worked by the hands of a craftsman with a chisel. 4 He decorates it with silver and gold. It is fastened with hammer and nails, so it won't totter. 5 Like scarecrows in a cucumber patch, their idols cannot speak. They must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them for they can do no harm — and they cannot do any good.
I don't know what dictionary you use, but according to Webster's pagan is defined as: Main Entry: pa·gan In case you might need a little help with polytheistic, here is Webster's definition: Main Entry: poly·the·ism OUT OF CONTEXT?????? Well now, if you'll look at the KING JAMES VERSION (there are already plenty of mistranslations in there - and ALL later versions are subject to even MORE MISTRANSLATIONS) you'll find that the "chisel" referred to in the Holman Christian Standard Bible in the KJV is an axe. The word axe is taken from the original manuscript Hebrew word maaseh, which is translated as AXE, NOT CHISEL... Now lets look at verse 5 in the KJV... Jer 10:5 They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good. Lets break this down to the original Hebrew... Upright is the Hebrew miqshah which means finely decorated cultic objects. (I would say christmas trees are finely decorated cultic objects) Palm tree is from the Hebrew tomer which means palm tree. Speak is from the Hebrew dabar meaning to speak. They must needs be borne is from the Hebrew nasa meaning to lift or carry. I could go on, but apparently NOWHERE in the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS from which the translations came is there any mention of a scarecrow or a cucumber patch!!!! And speaking of context, go back to Jer 10:2 (KJV), and the first sentence reads: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen.... Now go back and reread the definition of PAGAN... Pagan and heathen are interchangeable. Worshipers of multiple gods... I would suggest that a person seeking TRUTH be very careful of what they read. Like I said, the KJV is the first (that I know of) translation of the original manuscripts into English, and there are definitely some mistranslations in there. Every subsequent translation is open to even MORE mistranslation/misguidance.. Think about it - is it not the intent of Satan to deceive as many as possible???? And what is one of his strongest "tools" available for deceit??? RELIGION - he knows Scripture better than any of us, and if he can twist it he will...
The above version is based on the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB). In any case it is about using idols made of wood covered in gold and silver foil representing Gods - not a form of proto-Christmas tree. As for what pagan means - that is what the word has morphed into in English but the original meaning of pagan (still a sur name for Italians and Spanish people) is rural folk - villagers. It is derived from the Latin pagus, whence pagani (i. e. those who live in the country), a name given to the country folk who remained heathen after the cities had become Christian. The eastern Greek Orthodox church preferred the more accurate term 'idolators'.
I was aware of that as I checked the link to the verses you posted. We all have "preferences", and I prefer NOT to use a version which has things like scarecrows and cucumber patches which apparently were NOT in the original manuscripts... That this version was put out by modern evangelicals (who for the most part are nothing but lying Israel-firsters - Hagee comes to mind here) only makes the matter worse (to me)... Now if that's the version you want to use, that's your choice; and you certainly have a right to. However MOST of the posters of "religion" on 4 seem to use the KJV Personally, I don't have any problem understanding the English used in the KJV.
Then learn Greek like I did. How about not using whatever kind of translated version out of context like using lines meant to be against the carving of gilded idols and try to use that to show that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible.
Good point. I DO wish I knew Greek, along with Hebrew, and I'm sure I could add in quite a few more languages I wish I knew..... I cede. You may be right about the "christmas tree" thing... BUT, show me where in Scripture "christmas" is proclaimed a holiday. (Well, I haven't read the Holman Christian Standard Bible, it MIGHT be in there - mixed in somewhere in the cucumber patch - but if it is it'll be guarded by a scarecrow) THAT is my point. Christmas to me has no meaning - it is nothing. I don't celebrate it; and in fact it is only another winter day. I will work on christmas - no problem... BUT don't ask me to work on the Sabbath.... So if you want to celebrate a HOLY DAY which was made "holy" by man instead of the Creator don't let me get in your way... Have fun and enjoy the "season". Pagan (even if they're only just the villagers) traditions are simply that - and have no validity whatsoever with me. I'll just leave this thread with this verse (from the KJV, I can't say what the evangelicals and HCSB have it translated as) and since it's from NEW TESTAMENT, and PAUL to boot!!!!,all the "christians" can take heart: Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Precisely. If I am wrong about 'Christmas', it doesn't matter. I am not disobeying the King of Kings by NOT observing 'Christmas', and I'm saving a lot time and money, to boot. :-)
That is not what Christ said. "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Mat 22:21
Glad you were there to set us straight on it!!!! NO, it ISN'T what the Messiah said.... READ the passage!!! It was spoken by PETER. But the Messiah DID say in Matthew 7:6 (According to Holman's) Don't give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before pigs, or they will trample them with their feet, turn, and tear you to pieces. So let me get this straight. You are tearing a few of us to pieces over a christmas tree opinion when NOWHERE in Scripture can you find that christmas is a HOLY DAY as mandated by the Creator?????? You readily admit it's a creation of MAN!!! YOU PIG!!!!!
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man.
OK, unless I am as ignorant as you must think that I am, I do believe that you are either dodging the question that innieway was asking, or you simply cannot comprehend it. He was asking if you admitted that the so called "Holiday" of christmas was a creation of man, and somehow now you are talking about man creating the church. Well duh, of course man created religion. God simply founded laws for us to abide by and we have twisted that all to hell (sounds like some threads I have read lately). Second, I have no idea what god is spoken of and honoured in the Holman Bible, but the God that I fear and hold dear is the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. THIS GOD NEVER MADE HIMSELF A MAN!!! He sent us a son, but the christ was never, is never and will never be a GOD All of the Messiah's teachings were simple, that man had already gone astray, and reminded us over and over to follow his father. He NEVER stated look at me, I am God but continually pointed us towards his father, as he was sent to do. Of course I can only speak for the Bibles I have read, maybe it is different in your scarecrow book that bears the title of Bible.
Yes, it is a creation of man. That is not a problem since that is part of Church tradition - to honor saints - to set aside a day to celebrate and honor them. Protestants who are later day Christians who do not come from the original seed of Christ may have a problem with it. It is an absurd question/premise as well. I know Protestant nuts think Jesus wrote the New Testament and the Bible but he did not. Men wrote those Gospels. That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Most every sect on earth seeing the others as hertics, the whole sad circle of tribalism and pomposity. All claiming they are for peace, yet it seems when given half a chance mass murder is the main service to be held in their church. Organized religion and their followers have alot to be weighed in the balance. A few are humble - many are full of hubris. How is one to respond to men like Robertson (if he is the one, to me these guys are all one sicko entity) who asked for the assaination of Chavez, if we are Christians? Or the the character who claimed homos were responsible for 9-11. Or this rapture nonsense. And the killing video game based on it. Islam is full of sickos, and from what I can see, the US Christian movement is as well. Note in Denver today we had yet another evangelical bigshot having to admit he had homo liasons. Just a rant.
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Me too. Seems Destro is saying the Catholics have it right, and everyone else is going to hell... Of course, that's the common thinking among ALL organized religions isn't it? I mean the Lutherans know they're right, and the rest just "went astray" somewhere; the Methodists know they have the "upper hand" in getting into Heaven; the Baptists know they're right and "pity all the ones that aren't Baptist we won't be seeing them in Heaven"; the Catholics KNOW they're right - after all it was JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF that started the Catholic church, and ALL other Christian religions are merely offshoots of Catholocism and therefore CAN'T be right about anything (but at least the others get to sit it out in Purgatory or Limbo or somewhere for a while to think about it and realize the folly of their ways and then MIGHT get to go to Heaven); the Muslims are positive theirs is the way, and as a super bonus they get 70 virgins when they get to Heaven; the Mormons have already been to Heaven and now all they're doing is living a life on earth to prove themselves worthy to get back to Heaven; and the Wiccans think we're ALL NUTS...... I'd be willing to bet that the followers of Mithraism were just as adamant about the Holy Trinity they believed in as are today's Christians, as were the Babylonians about theirs, and the Egyptians about theirs..... I wonder if the followers of any of the other religions actually PRACTICE what is in the "book" they CLAIM to follow, or if they do like Christians and just practice what is convenient for them and ignore the rest by way of some rationalization that "it doesn't mean that"????? I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs - which by extension would mean avoiding DOCTORS... Like I said, I can't speak Greek, BUT call it witchcraft call it drugs call it whatever the hell you want to I FOLLOW SCRIPTURE and AVOID DOCTORS AT ALL COST!!!!! Been many many years since I've been to one. I guess I'm ignorant, but at least I think I have enough common sense to be able to tell what Scripture is saying, and can follow it.... We all know Christians don't have a problem with going to the doctor to get "drugs" - even if they are told NOT to in Scripture....
That is why I react in horror to such ravings. I am a historian - my interest in theology is to understand the history. Language and meaning of words changes over time. For example 'cool' does not only mean cold temperature today. Mad once meant crazy now it is used mostly to mean angry. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek - the Lingua Franca of its time. Like all languages some words have slang meanings specific to their times and practices. During the era of the New Testament there was a wide spread practice of going to potion makers who sold you potions. In the Koine Greek the term was pharmaka - but that also meant real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time. A straight translation of words from the past is not possible without understanding how the words were used by the people of that era as well. The above excerpt refers to avoiding potion makers not medical MD doctors. That you use that to avoid doctors on a religious basis is so wrong I am in pain for you and I am angry at whatever religious cult made you think this.
OK, I'll accept that since I did not know the difference or that there was such a thing as Koine Greek. OK, so the word used in the New Testament which was mistranslated as "witchcraft" in the KJV was used to mean "real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time". Your words, not mine - but I'll buy that. I'm sure you know. You are the Greek linguistic expert. I was under the impression that you just explained how the word pharmaka was used by the people of the New Testament writing era. So if it meant "real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time", then why does it NOW mean ONLY "potion makers" and NOT medical MD doctors??? You seem to be contradicting yourself. In fact you ARE contradicting yourself. Did not the Creator tell us He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow??? I suppose He saw the folly in His ways from time to time (apparently He changed His mind on things like eating pork. At one time it was NOT to be eaten, but I guess He realized that Law was a mistake for one reason or another so He changed it to allow us to eat all the pig we want) BUT if that's the case then He's a LIAR because He changed - which would mean that He ISN'T the same today as yesterday... And we're just left to guess at to how He'll be tomorrow.... WELL, I don't believe that!!!! If you want to, I don't care. No more than you care what I believe. And the TRUTH is it doesn't make a damn one way or the other what EITHER of us believes!!!! There is a TRUTH in the matter, and that TRUTH exists - INDEPENDENT of what either of us believes... One day we shall KNOW the TRUTH..... That "religious cult" is Scripture... I do NOT listen to the "pulpit parrots", and am not a member of any "cult"... In Scripture we were told by the Creator that He gave us everything we need. I avoid doctors - and ONE reason is that I never get sick. PERHAPS that is a reward by the CREATOR for following HIS HEALTH LAWS, which include the food laws. PERHAPS His food laws were given to us to keep the immune system which HE created strong!!! So there is no need for you to be "in pain" for me!!! I'm NOT in pain, and if you are DON'T blame it on either ME or the Creator... Just go to the doctor (who uses the word "practice" to describe his career - which implies that he is just that, PRACTICING - not COMPETENT) and take whatever poison he prescribes to you... And while you're on that poison you may want to pick up a copy of a Physician's Desk Reference and read about all the ILL effects of the "medicine" you are taking. You might be very surprised to learn that for example antibiotics can actually cause heart disease (not my words, cited straight from a PDR)... As for me - I'm going to put my trust and faith in what the Creator said - and avoid any profession which uses as it's symbol 2 snakes climbing up a pole!!!! Maybe I'm loony, but it seems to me that in Scripture a snake played a huge part in the downfall of man.. NOT what I want to put my faith in!!! BTW, you might want to check out the numbers on iatrogenic "disease"; diseases and deaths CAUSED by doctors and their drugs. You might be shocked. "Legal" drugs (prescription and OTC) kill more people each year than all the "illegal" ones combined... I'd say that's a poor track record. Like I said, I don't want nor care to attempt to "change" your beliefs. I know you aren't going to change mine... I'll live as I see fit, and I'm sure you will too. So you can reply to this if you want - but I'm done.
One more time. Pharmaka has dual meanings and to get at the meaning in the New Testament you need to know the context. In the 1st century AD pharmakia meant potions and it could also mean regular medicine depending on the context. That does not mean regular medicine was considered witchcraft. A Koine Greek speaker would understand what context the word was used in. For example take the word 'mad'. Did calling someone mad mean they are angry or crazy? An old English speaker of Shakespear's day would understand the context of 'mad' as meaning crazy while a speaker of American English would understand 'mad' meaning angry. Clear? If not my apologies.
You may begin apologizing now. You are so full of "education" that you do nothing but talk in circles. All you care to do is pick and argue. No matter what point is placed in from of you, you must debate it. Then, when allowed time to come full circle, you end up supporting the original point that you were debating. I have to absolutely agree with Randge on this point, but unfortunately you put crap in the tube before calling it a telescope. For instance, innieway asked in post 31, (this is christmas thread), to which you had to stand up as the Greek expert you are, and pick this all apart, as per you MO, and reply, in part with..(post 32, this is christmas thread) so when innieway applied your definition to scripture, you had to say that he had it all wrong again, and eventually came back around to the original statement that innieway made saying that the scripture was correctly translated using the word witchcraft to describe that actions of the people that were going on and that we were told by God, not to follow!!! destro, post 119, Pharmaka has dual meanings and to get at the meaning in the New Testament you need to know the context. In the 1st century AD pharmakia meant potions and it could also mean regular medicine depending on the context. Point number two that I gleaned from your babble is simply, apparently your beloved laguage, as you described it Greek is probably the most scholarly and exact language humanity has ever developed is not as exact as you say, or we would know if scripture were describing drugs, doctors or witchcraft, without endless debate. Once again, your babbling has disproved you. Also, in post 99,you stated, The Church proclaimed it a holiday. The same Church that created the scripture and that predates the writing of the New Testament.If the church had created scripture, I would not even bother with it at all, except to burn it. Religion, over the years, has proven to be of the most corrupt and agenda motivated organizations in the world. Why in the hell would I want to follow their teachings??? Oh, yeah, I DON'T Because God "wrote" scripture, having man put pen to paper for him. I do NOT affiliate nor follow with any religious group or organization. I simply read and follow God's word. I believe I clarified the following of your accusing drivel above :post 108, destro It is an absurd question/premise as well. I know Protestant nuts think Jesus wrote the New Testament and the Bible but he did not. Men wrote those Gospels. More of your accusing drivel:That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies. You also seem to have a thing with using the term heresy in a negative light. I would not necessarily recommend that here on the forum, because in a sense, everyone on the forum is a heretic in one sense of the word or another. Your definition of heresy: post 112, I would recommend that before you accuse anyone of thinking a certain way or being affiliated with a certain group, that you should quit being completely ignorant of what others are saying. Instead you take everything out of context and twist it into something completely different. My final point being that I am always up for an intelligent debate, but not wasting my time with someone who wants to nitpick in circles. My advice, take your damn toilet paper tube to the nearest mirror, and argue with yourself all you want. I refuse to waste any more of my time with you.
The word "heresy" comes from the Greek hairesis (from haireomai, "choose"), which means either a choice of beliefs or a faction of dissident believers. Please give pride of place to the language that invented the word - why would you say Webster's is more accurate than the original language the English took the word from? It was given wide currency by St. Irenaeus 130–202 AD in his tract 'Contra Haereses'(Against Heresies) to describe and discredit his opponents in the early Christian Church. He described his own position as orthodox (from ortho- "right" + doxa "thinking") and his position eventually evolved into the position of the early Christian Church.
Listen you ignorant schmuck, once again you prove that you CANNOT READ ANYTHING IN CONTEXT I never claimed that Webster was more accurate than the ORIGINAL, I simply stated that Webster is the best authority that we have on OUR language and its MODERN usage
#131. To: ladybug (#130)
How Christian of you.
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#48. To: SKYDRIFTER, Destro, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#35)
(Edited)
Christmas celebrates the birth of the "King of the Jews." What's this guy's problem? Doesn't anyone read scripture?
Jer 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
No where that I have found in the Bible tells us to celebrate any birthday, and I have never found mention of this "Christ's Mass" or that it was to be observed as Holy. Now there are several other occasions that ARE mentioned in scripture that ARE to be observed as such, but of course, you never hear anyone mention the Feast of Trumpets, Feast of Weeks, Feast of the Tabernacle, and so on. Jew's are the only ones commonly KNOWN to observe passover (any one other than a Jew that would celebrate Passover is just weird, right??)
Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
#49. To: ladybug (#48)
#50. To: SKYDRIFTER (#49)
The history goes to Constantinople and the Solviticans. The converts to Christianity wouldn't give up their Solstice celebration, so the birthday celebration got moved to Dec. 25th.
#51. To: SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#50)
(Edited)
#53. To: Destro (#51)
I don't mind talking about the potential intermixing of old 'pagan' (which just means village folk) traditions
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
belief in or worship of more than one god but please don't take biblical passages out of context.
#55. To: innieway (#53)
#75. To: Destro (#55)
The above version is based on the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB).
#77. To: innieway (#75)
and I prefer NOT to use a version
#97. To: Destro, Who Knows What Evil, Randge, Tom007, Lodwick (#77)
Then learn Greek like I did. How about not using whatever kind of translated version out of context like using lines meant to be against the carving of gilded idols and try to use that to show that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible.
#98. To: innieway (#97)
We ought to obey God rather than men.
#100. To: who knows what evil, innieway (#98)
We ought to obey God rather than men.
#102. To: Destro (#100)
That is not what Christ said.
#104. To: innieway (#102)
You readily admit it's a creation of MAN
#107. To: Destro (#104)
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man
#108. To: ladybug (#107)
He was asking if you admitted that the so called "Holiday" of christmas was a creation of man
#109. To: Destro, ladybug (#108)
That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
#110. To: tom007, Destro (#109)
That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
#115. To: innieway, tom007 (#110)
(Edited)
I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs - which by extension would mean avoiding DOCTORS... Like I said, I can't speak Greek, BUT call it witchcraft call it drugs call it whatever the hell you want to I FOLLOW SCRIPTURE and AVOID DOCTORS AT ALL COST!!!!!
#118. To: Destro (#115)
The New Testament was written in Koine Greek
During the era of the New Testament there was a wide spread practice of going to potion makers who sold you potions. In the Koine Greek the term was pharmaka - but that also meant real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time.
A straight translation of words from the past is not possible without understanding how the words were used by the people of that era as well. The above excerpt refers to avoiding potion makers not medical MD doctors.
That you use that to avoid doctors on a religious basis is so wrong I am in pain for you and I am angry at whatever religious cult made you think this.
#119. To: innieway (#118)
(Edited)
OK, so the word used in the New Testament which was mistranslated as "witchcraft" in the KJV was used to mean "real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time". Your words, not mine - but I'll buy that. I'm sure you know. You are the Greek linguistic expert.
#122. To: Destro (#119)
Clear? If not my apologies.
You look at life through a toilet paper tube and you think it is a telescope.
Are we not told in Scripture NOT to participate in witchcraft?????? (At least the KJV does, I can't say for the HCSB) AND what is the Greek word for witchcraft?????? Is it not PHARMAKIA????????
Pharmakia does not mean witchcraft it means drugs in Greek
innieway post 110, I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs ,
A two year old could plainly see that there you have come full circle with all your knowledge, to support a statement that you originally were trying to disprove. I did gather two points out of all your babbling. You do not think that any of this has anything to do with doctors, well, innieway and I both do. Personally, doctors have done me nothing but physical and permanent HARM due to their incompetence. I firmly believe that God granted us everything we need to live healthful lives, including the laws to follow to keep us from major illness. Of course, if you do not abide his laws, and use his gifts, you will need these pill pushers, who sent you with little notes to the PHARMACY (dang that sounds like the original Greek Pharmakia, don't it)to get your pills to survive all of the ill's that you have brought upon yourself. And of course most people has a major illness will NOT even CONSIDER that they may have been able to do something to prevent it. OK, live your life in a state of illness, I won't stop you, I am simply saying that there is a better way. It is more than a matter of whether or not the Lord told us not to go to doctors, but the fact that he ensured that if we truly follow him, there is no need!!!
I never denied the Holy Trinity, I believe that there is God(the father), The Messiah(the son), and the Holy Ghost. I simply denied that god ever made himself a man as you had claimed in an earlier post. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are not themselves God, for there is only one God, his son and the Holy Ghost are two other separate entities, making three Holy entities, total, hence, a trinity (FYI prefix tri=three, debate that!) the statement said above is a heresy in the Greek meaning of the word. If you prefer a more neutral term how about the views expressed above are deviation from the original?
Webster definition of heresy: theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox. By extension, heresy is an opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative.
Hmmm, nothing about deviance from the ORIGINAL there, once again, debate all you want, but when using descriptive terms, in OUR language, in MODERN times, I consider Websters to be the authority, not you or the original Greek. More of your own statements:post 114, I view Protestants the same way I view feminists and multiculturists that want to throw out the cannon of classical civilization for a new idea or a new way of thinking.
For starters, I despise feminism. If you take a close look at a woman's life in Biblical times, they actually had a better life, and more rights than men. Granted those rights were different than that of a man, and not all women considered then better due to the fact that following these biblical ways meant that women had to answer to men. But when you truly look at it, women were cared for from the cradle to the grave, and had (what I believe was)a far better life than that of a modern career woman. And I life my life according to the Bible, how is that throwing out "the cannon of classical civilization"??? Seems like my life is closer to that of ancient times than your average woman today. Granted, I do work, some. But my dad called all of the shots in my life until marriage, now my sweetheart does. If I were to become a widow, Either my dad, one of my brothers, or possibly even a nephew will be responsible for me. It is not always easy having others make the final decision for you, and I can definitely see where a selfish or cruel man could make a woman's life miserable. But all of the men in my life care about what is best for me.
#126. To: ladybug (#122)
I consider Websters to be the authority, not you or the original Greek
#130. To: Destro (#126)
why would you say Webster's is more accurate than the original language the English took the word from
Replies to Comment # 130. Listen you ignorant schmuck
End Trace Mode for Comment # 130.