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Title: Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees
Source:
www.king5.com
URL Source: http://www.king5.com/localnews/stor ... ABairporttreesSW.1663eccf.html
Published: Dec 10, 2006
Author: www.king5.com
Post Date: 2006-12-10 22:04:55 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 2393
Comments: 138
Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees KING Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky SEATAC, Wash. - All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested. Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. "Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday. For many people the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season," said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District. After consulting with lawyers, port staff believed that adding the menorah would have required adding symbols for other religions and cultures in the Northwest. The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists. Maintenance workers boxed up the trees during the graveyard shift early Saturday, when airport bosses believed few people would notice. "We decided to take the trees down because we didn't want to be exclusive," said airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt. "We're trying to be thoughtful and respectful, and will review policies after the first of the year." Bogomilsky had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn't add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows. Hanukkah begins this Friday at sundown. "They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said Bogomilsky's lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch." 03:53 PM PST on Sunday, December 10, 2006
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#32. To: randge (#28)
I think it's a great idea.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Excuse me - get back on track. The whole point of this conversation is the public celebration/observance of the holiday is in not?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Iceland?
Christmas celebrates the birth of the "King of the Jews." What's this guy's problem? Doesn't anyone read scripture? (I know, I know, that's not popular to say.)
People are the public. Federally declared holidays follow the public observance. Get real. Read the history at the Wiki link. Americans before they were Americans celebrated Christmas. The original Grinch, Oliver Cromwell hated everything and everybody and of course Christmas. Maybe you like Cromwell, but no one else does.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Iceland's good.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Then in America it was not publicly observed until 1870.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
No, it's already its own nation, and it's close enough to the UK and US and strategic enough that there'd be a big armada there pounding the crap out of the folks declaring independance straight away. The place needs to seem to be a worthless pesthole, at least until the enterprising freedom lovers get enough numbers and prosperity going to be able to form a credible defense...
"pound pastrami, can kraut, six bagels – bring home for Emma"
Then in America it was not publicly observed until 1870. No, the public observance preceded the federal declaration by several centuries.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." What you need is some bad PR for a great place. Or, we could find a way to give a great place a really bad reputation.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." When the Roman Catholic Church rose upon the detritus of the Roman Empire, the Winter Equinox was a major celebration in Rome. Trees, perhaps pines, were festooned and garlanded, and people visited each others homes exchanging gifts and felicitations. Being Roman, they then proceeded to party with a vengeance. The old habits were hard to stamp out, and the Catholic Church, being pragmatic and unable to stamp out the old Saturnalia, simply proceeded to adopt it as its own, since the people were already celebrating the day and showed no signs of stopping.
Forgive me but I just don't see why I should care one way or the other. The only Christmas tree I care about is the one in my own house. Others can put them up or not as they wish. The same goes for menorahs.
Taht may be true in the West - may not be. The Christmas tree for example is not found in Eastern Christian forms of celebration until the 20th century. I know of no Italian tradition of Christmas trees - but I may be wrong.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Tree worship was a part and parcel of the preChristians of Europe. One theory I read was that the influence of the Hanoverian Dynasty upon England caused the importation of the practice, long adhered to in Germany. The old Royal Navy song, Hearts of Oak, was a residue of the worship of the towering oaks of England, some having grown so long they were over 250 feet tall.
CAIR names Lubavitch Rabbi Man of the Year!
I know of no such practice in the Roman world. Use of branches? Leaves? Sacred groves/trees? Sure but tree worship? I don't think I know of an example.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Well, yes, of course SOME of us read scripture. And I must assume, that by your comment that you are one of the people that do??? If you do read scripture, I should truly HOPE that YOU DO NOT observe Christmas, and DEFINATELY would not allow a Christmas tree in your home. And with your knowledge of scripture, I am sure that you have run across this little tidbit a time or two, and would take it to heart, but here is a refresher in case you did not realize its true implications, or its relevance to this PAGAN "Holi-day" But Christmas and Easter, the two "holiest" of Christian "Holi-days" are not days that the Bible instructs us to observe. Easter is mention ONCE in the entire 1189 Chapters of the Bible, and when researched out, it is found that the original word that it was translated from means passover. But on the other hand, Jews also celebrate Hanukkah, and that is not in the Bible either (along with other holidays). Now if anyone is curious as to why we celebrate Christmas on December 25, all they have to do is to take a good look at Mithraism. There were many likenesses between Mithraism and Christianity, in fact they had more in common than they had different. The biggest single difference in the two religions was that Mithraism did not allow women to participate. But Mithra was born on December 25, in a cave, of a virgin, and was a god that was a part of a holy trinity and so on and so forth. here is an excellent link if you would like to know more on that one. "Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
The history goes to Constantinople and the Solviticans. The converts to Christianity wouldn't give up their Solstice celebration, so the birthday celebration got moved to Dec. 25th.
Correct, here is another great link that I just found on another thread that is going on the 4um right now. http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/Constantine.htm My point was that the basis for Christmas comes from many places, NOT ONE of them being the Bible.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
I don't mind talking about the potential intermixing of old 'pagan' (which just means village folk) traditions with Christmas traditions in the West (Christmas is celebrated differently by eastern Christians) but please don't take biblical passages out of context. Jeremiah 10:3-5 deals not with idolatrous rites that resembles the use of a Christmas tree but of shaping out of wood idols of gods that are then plated with gold or silver foil. 3 for the customs of the peoples are worthless. Someone cuts down a tree from the forest; [it is] worked by the hands of a craftsman with a chisel. 4 He decorates it with silver and gold. It is fastened with hammer and nails, so it won't totter. 5 Like scarecrows in a cucumber patch, their idols cannot speak. They must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them for they can do no harm — and they cannot do any good.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
This is a very bad thing. The trees were dead and should have been keep as long as they were there. Removing them causes rancor. We had a Christmas tree removal from Eugene, Oregon firehouses, and everyone had Christmas trees in their pick-up trees complete with lights. If protesters start driving through the airport with Christmas trees in trucks they will make authorities and the media hysterical. I guarantee it. Imagine http://YouTube.com pieces showing that protest. Lit trees in trucks conveys the message and is photogenic. It is a good opportunity to make big painful stink.
I don't know what dictionary you use, but according to Webster's pagan is defined as: Main Entry: pa·gan In case you might need a little help with polytheistic, here is Webster's definition: Main Entry: poly·the·ism OUT OF CONTEXT?????? Well now, if you'll look at the KING JAMES VERSION (there are already plenty of mistranslations in there - and ALL later versions are subject to even MORE MISTRANSLATIONS) you'll find that the "chisel" referred to in the Holman Christian Standard Bible in the KJV is an axe. The word axe is taken from the original manuscript Hebrew word maaseh, which is translated as AXE, NOT CHISEL... Now lets look at verse 5 in the KJV... Jer 10:5 They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good. Lets break this down to the original Hebrew... Upright is the Hebrew miqshah which means finely decorated cultic objects. (I would say christmas trees are finely decorated cultic objects) Palm tree is from the Hebrew tomer which means palm tree. Speak is from the Hebrew dabar meaning to speak. They must needs be borne is from the Hebrew nasa meaning to lift or carry. I could go on, but apparently NOWHERE in the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS from which the translations came is there any mention of a scarecrow or a cucumber patch!!!! And speaking of context, go back to Jer 10:2 (KJV), and the first sentence reads: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen.... Now go back and reread the definition of PAGAN... Pagan and heathen are interchangeable. Worshipers of multiple gods... I would suggest that a person seeking TRUTH be very careful of what they read. Like I said, the KJV is the first (that I know of) translation of the original manuscripts into English, and there are definitely some mistranslations in there. Every subsequent translation is open to even MORE mistranslation/misguidance.. Think about it - is it not the intent of Satan to deceive as many as possible???? And what is one of his strongest "tools" available for deceit??? RELIGION - he knows Scripture better than any of us, and if he can twist it he will...
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
For starters, I must question why, when replying to my comment, was I not included in the reply. I must presume that you had accurately guessed that I may not have liked what you had to say. 3 for the customs of the peoples are worthless. Someone cuts down a tree from the forest; [it is] worked by the hands of a craftsman with a chisel. 4 He decorates it with silver and gold. It is fastened with hammer and nails, so it won't totter. 5 Like scarecrows in a cucumber patch, their idols cannot speak. They must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them for they can do no harm — and they cannot do any good. This "version" of my Biblical quote is taken out of the Holman Christian Standard Bible, and I am sorry, I am not wanting to hear the will of God through ANY translation by any religious sect, and definitely NOT from the Christians (being a religion that most of us who like to research religion can agree celebrate PAGAN or non-Biblical holidays such as easter and christmas). Also when you Google this translation of the Bible, the very first link that comes up defines the HCSB as... Now this is more along the lines of Constantine blending religions for the sake of harmony with a modern twist (fabricated by Hagge, Falwell, Dobson, and the rest of those snakes kind of twist????? Aimed at a one world religion for a New World Order???) I mean hell, if no one has a Bible that any where near resembles the original text that it was SUPPOSEDLY translated from (kind of like a movie {LOOSELY} based on a true story, but people who lived the true story have to search hard for the similarities) isn't that a GREAT way to prevent people from learning the truth??? How many English speaking people would ever care to put forth the EFFORT to cross reference back to the original Hebrew??? Noone222, innieway and I are definitely among the minority there!!! I am very grateful of innieway taking the time to exhaustively respond for me, and save me some time. I guarantee that anyone who truly takes the time to research the ORIGINAL text, will not find scarecrow, or cucumber patch anywhere in the Bible. Also it is very convenient that where there is a passage telling us NOT to cut and adorn a tree of the forest (isn't that how we get christmas trees, cut them from the forest and adorn them???) that suddenly in a now multi-denominational Bible, this object is likened more to a scarecrow?? Well of course, who would want us to think that maybe God did now want us to observe this act on a so called Holy Day (Holi-day). That would be bad for business, think of all of the commercialism and commerce generated around this ceremony??? Maybe I am a little hard core on the subject or just a stick-in-the-mud, but I tend to look at the Bible as a Law Book more than a religious tool. Of course pulpit-parrots like all these translations that they can twist and pervert even further for whatever their purpose may be (I have yet to figure that one out). I simply wish to continue to ATTEMPT to live my life as best as I can,(I am FAR from perfect, in my eyes or in God's) as close to the way God intended as I can. That means that I will not participate in any of the "traditions of village people" as you put it, or pagan/heathen festivals of worship to false gods, as I like to look at it. Sure, the christmas season is then just another day, but hell, so is sunday!!!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
The above version is based on the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB). In any case it is about using idols made of wood covered in gold and silver foil representing Gods - not a form of proto-Christmas tree. As for what pagan means - that is what the word has morphed into in English but the original meaning of pagan (still a sur name for Italians and Spanish people) is rural folk - villagers. It is derived from the Latin pagus, whence pagani (i. e. those who live in the country), a name given to the country folk who remained heathen after the cities had become Christian. The eastern Greek Orthodox church preferred the more accurate term 'idolators'.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I thought I did - my bad - for it was your type of Protestant nuttery I wanted to answer.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That is a cross western heretics - both Latin and Protestant - have to bear. Though the Christmas tree decorating has spread to all over the world - even non-Christian Shinto Japanese like to keep Christmas trees - it is not a tradition found much in eastern Christianity. I am not here to defend what westerners have done to the Christian religion since I am not one of them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
We are all human, I can understand mistakes. Please take care when associating me to any sort of "religion" for I do not associate my self with any group who tries to "impose" their "interpretation" of scripture on others. Myself I simply read the words, and take them as they are written. I am not one to think that the Bible is written in a confusing fashion, It was simply originated in other languages, then translated into English at a time where the language was presented in a different fashion. If I do not understand a passage, I simply look up the original text, and then reread the passage until I can understand what it is saying. But this happens very rarely. Many times I like to look up the original text simply to appreciate the work and detail that it took to translate a book of such magnitude. As for "protestant nuttery", I believe that that is what the Holman Christian Standard Bible (New translation utilizing global, modern English and produced by multi-denominational, evangelical translators)that you like to quote scripture from, is spewing.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
December 25th occurs about the time of the Winter Solistice, the shortest day of the year. The shortening days were taken as a sign that the Sun was getting weaker. After the Solistice, the days begin to get longer ...... and pagan peoples thought that was an indication that the Sun was getting stronger. Thus, the Winter Solistice became the "birthday" of several gods: Attis, Frey, Thor, Dionysus, Osiris, Adonis, Mithra, Tammuz, Cernunnos and so forth. It is a "solar holiday," marking the time that the sun becomes apparently stronger day by day. This is a quote from Richard 9151 on another thread. If you look at each of the PAGAN gods that celebrate their birthday on the date that many christians "chose" to celebrate the birth of the King of Jews, it is clear that many of these religions have merged amongst themselves and also merged into christianity. With the winter solstice being of such importance and celebrated worldwide by means of many Pagan religions only gives credence to both my point and yours. Christmas has been celebrated by many names, originally had NOTHING to do with Christ, was originally a Pagan holiday that happened to spread far and wide. Eastern Christianity is among the oldest of christian traditions, and DOES NOT choose to celebrate with the Pagan idol of a "christmas" tree.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
you mean the sola scriptura heresy?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
It's possible. The term you are looking for is syncratism and the same can be said for the Hebrew religion which can be shown to have borrowed concepts from native paganisim, Zorastrianism, Sumerian origin myths, and Pharaoh Akhenaten's cult of the monotheistic sun god, Aten.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Comical, that people who need Mickey Mouse, over interpreted Bibles that talk about scarecrows in cucumber patches have to make up big words like "sola scriptura" and then call it a "heresy" simply because they can not understand what they read. For anyone who may be reading this thread, "sola Scriptura" is Latin for "by scripture alone" and it simply is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear to the rational reader, and its own interpreter. For starters, a heresy is not as bad as it sounds, for it is defined as theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox. By extension, heresy is an opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative. The entire protestant faith was founded by such means. Simply wishing to follow the Bible, as the Catholic church had strayed so far from it(of course, now protestants have strayed just as far with the progression of time). You may try to call it by any negative sounding Latin name that you wish, I simply believe that the Creator gave us laws to live by, asked mortals to record them for future generations, and hence we have a Bible. But unfortunately it has been adulterated over time, so now one has to dig through the trash (many version and translations) to find the truth that God originally intended for us to have and follow.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Agreed!!! I am glad that we can see eye to eye on something. My original point was that (in my opinion) God asked his people not to participate, so I do not.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten One of the most thought provoking theories is the following; Akhenaten devoted so much attention to his new capital city of Akhet-Aten that he let the rest of Egypt fall apart. Akhenaten was followed as pharaoh by Smenkhkare, then Tutankhamun, then Ay. He was the High Priest of Akhet-Aten, known as the Divine Father (an hereditary title). Although originally a believer in Aten, Ay realised Egypt had to return to the old gods. The priests of Aten wouldn’t reconvert, so they had to go, along with the mass of Aten believers. Ay showered them with gifts, and sent them off to colonise Canaan, where the priests, the Yahus, became the Judahites, settling in the south in Judah, while the ordinary believers settled in the north, in Israel. In this theory, Ay was so respected as the Divine Father that he became worshipped as a personification of God; in the Aramaic version of the Old Testament God is called Ay, not Yahweh, and the word Adonay, used by Jews to avoid saying the name of God, Yahweh, aloud, means “Lord Ay”. When the Books of Hebrew History (the historical parts of the Hebrew Bible) came to be written during the Babylonian captivity, centuries later, Akhenaten became a template for Adam, and also for Abraham. The Israelite hero Moses, who in the Bible account led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, was based on Rameses, and his troublesome brother Aaron was the previous pharaoh, Horemheb, who succeeded Ay, and who tried to expunge all evidence of Aten worship and of his predecessors. Moses’ successor, Joshua, was Rameses’ successor Seti I. It is also argued that Hebrew was the lingua franca of the many different peoples at Akhet-Aten, borrowing from many sources including Egyptian and Ethiopian. The Exodus mystery has captured the attention of Western thinkers for centuries. Clemens of Alexandria in 200 AD was one of the first to mention a stunning similarity between the Egyptian symbols and those used by the ancient Hebrews
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
My point is its none of anyones business either way. Now the question is what shall we do for public places? Like I wrote before - hard for me to care much when in America Christmas has a history of being outlawed, ignored or celebrated. So I can't get too worked up over any of this 'war on Christmas' BS because next year the American religious nuts may decide Christmas is bad for Christianity as was the case around 10 years ago when they did not want Christmas secular symbols. Now Christian religious activists want secular Christmas symbols.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
When the Roman Catholic Church rose upon the detritus of the Roman Empire, the Winter Equinox was a major celebration in Rome. Trees, perhaps pines, were festooned and garlanded, and people visited each others homes exchanging gifts and felicitations. Being Roman, they then proceeded to party with a vengeance. The old habits were hard to stamp out, and the Catholic Church, being pragmatic and unable to stamp out the old Saturnalia, simply proceeded to adopt it as its own, since the people were already celebrating the day and showed no signs of stopping. That's pretty much it. The Twelve Days of Light festival IIRC. Note the solstice is usually on the 21, but to an eye observer, it would understandably take another few days to confirm the sun was (appearently) riseing across the ecliptic plane. Then it was known for sure, the rebirth of the Sun, the damm cold weather was hoped to be ending was at hand, light conquered the killing darkness and cold. A good time to celebrate, not much work to do, or could be done, and the beer was ready from the grain harvest. Christmas trees are echos of Phallic worship of the ancients, (See the bible for the injunction of the Poles af Asharah) (Easter) fertility was a biggy concern back then.
Personally, I would rather NOT see these things in public, because of my PERSONAL beliefs. But instead if forcing MY will upon the masses, I simply avoid public places during this season. I do not do this simply because of christmas trees, but because the entire this disgusts me, all of the commercialism, people getting all stressed out - spending money they don't have, to give gifts that they are SUPPOSED to give simply because it is custom. Because I believe that these customs were born out of Pagan rites, makes it all the worse. Furthermore, there is nothing more meaningless to me than a gift that someone is SUPPOSED to give. I am a firm believer that IT IS the thought that counts. When the thought is "crap, it is christmas, i don't want so-and-so to think I am a skinflint so I had better come up with something good" simply disgusts me. If someone wants to show me that I am in their thoughts, send me a card, a letter or a gift when the calender does not tell them to. The entire thing makes me sick. But I say live and let live, if everyone who disliked christmas trees in public, simply did not patronize places that displayed them, either it would make no impact, or businesses would loose money and would change their holiday decorating to entice business. Either way, people would get to enjoy the season as they so desired.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
It is difficult to discern, but Oaks seemed to have a special place in the religion. See Sir James Fraizer and others. Wasn't quite tree worship, more along the lines of Numa, prolly the creator of Paganism, who was the "Deliver of Laws" to the romans after the defeat of the Tarquin the Proud the last of the hated kings of the very early Romen City, 680 BC?. He claimed that he consorted regularly with a female Goddess in a slyvian clearing who gave him the laws to give to the Roman People. Note that the Romans wore oak garlands on their heads as a symbol of victory,(the strength of the oak) the Greeks used Olive garlands as a symbol of peace (Olive was a domestic oil for cleaning).
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom Now that is interesting. Bookmarked for later investigation.
Like I wrote: Use of branches? Leaves? Sacred groves/trees? Sure! But tree worship? I don't think I know of an example. PS: The Greeks also held the ivy to have some sacred significance. Hence the link of higher education and 'ivy'.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That would be Misletoe, I think. As it remained green and "living" , when the cruel winter killed all life.The miseltoe typically living on an oak tree, it was held to be the "scared bough", representing, evidentially, eternal life. Exactly why this is so is a mystery, but the proponderous amount of textual and icon evidence strongly suggests it is so. So powerful that many hang the ivy over the doorways today.
Very interesting post, I had always known of the olive garland, but I did not know why or about the oak garland. Thank you for the tidbit!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
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---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#33. To: robin (#30)
It was not declared a federal holday until 1870, that does not mean Christians did not celebrate Christmas before that.
#34. To: Axenolith (#13)
Ideally, the location of a colony would be away from the established research bases, with land exposure (as opposed to strictly ice), good geothermal gradient, etc...
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#35. To: Robin, Brian S, Christine, Honway, Aristeides, Diana, All (#0)
#36. To: Destro (#33)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#37. To: who knows what evil, Axenolith, Diana, randge (#34)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#38. To: robin (#36)
Federally declared holidays follow the public observance.
#39. To: who knows what evil (#34)
#40. To: Destro (#38)
Federally declared holidays follow the public observance.
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#41. To: Axenolith, randge (#39)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#42. To: Destro (#29)
(Edited)
Many theories exist as to why Dec 25 was picked
#43. To: robin (#0)
#44. To: swarthyguy (#42)
#45. To: Destro (#44)
#46. To: Destro (#44)
#47. To: swarthyguy (#45)
Tree worship was a part and parcel of the preChristians of Europe.
#48. To: SKYDRIFTER, Destro, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#35)
(Edited)
Christmas celebrates the birth of the "King of the Jews." What's this guy's problem? Doesn't anyone read scripture?
Jer 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
No where that I have found in the Bible tells us to celebrate any birthday, and I have never found mention of this "Christ's Mass" or that it was to be observed as Holy. Now there are several other occasions that ARE mentioned in scripture that ARE to be observed as such, but of course, you never hear anyone mention the Feast of Trumpets, Feast of Weeks, Feast of the Tabernacle, and so on. Jew's are the only ones commonly KNOWN to observe passover (any one other than a Jew that would celebrate Passover is just weird, right??)
Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
#49. To: ladybug (#48)
#50. To: SKYDRIFTER (#49)
The history goes to Constantinople and the Solviticans. The converts to Christianity wouldn't give up their Solstice celebration, so the birthday celebration got moved to Dec. 25th.
#51. To: SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#50)
(Edited)
#52. To: lodwick, IndieTX, christine (#12)
#53. To: Destro (#51)
I don't mind talking about the potential intermixing of old 'pagan' (which just means village folk) traditions
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
belief in or worship of more than one god but please don't take biblical passages out of context.
#54. To: Destro (#51)
To: SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf
Jeremiah 10:3-5
New translation utilizing global, modern English and produced by multi-denominational, evangelical translators.
#55. To: innieway (#53)
#56. To: ladybug, SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#54)
For starters, I must question why, when replying to my comment, was I not included in the reply.
#57. To: ladybug, SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#54)
Also it is very convenient that where there is a passage telling us NOT to cut and adorn a tree of the forest (isn't that how we get christmas trees, cut them from the forest and adorn them???) that suddenly in a now multi-denominational Bible, this object is likened more to a scarecrow??
#58. To: Destro (#56)
thought I did - my bad - for it was your type of Protestant nuttery I wanted to answer.
#59. To: Destro (#57)
Though the Christmas tree decorating has spread to all over the world - even non-Christian Shinto Japanese like to keep Christmas trees - it is not a tradition found much in eastern Christianity.
#60. To: ladybug (#58)
(Edited)
Please take care when associating me to any sort of "religion" for I do not associate my self with any group who tries to "impose" their "interpretation" of scripture on others.
#61. To: ladybug (#59)
it is clear that many of these religions have merged amongst themselves and also merged into christianity.
#62. To: Destro (#60)
you mean the sola scriptura heresy?
#63. To: Destro (#61)
the same can be said for the Hebrew religion which can be shown to have borrowed concepts from native paganisim, Zorastrianism, Sumerian origin myths, and Pharaoh Akhenaten's cult of the monotheistic sun god, Aten.
#64. To: ladybug (#59)
It's possible. The term you are looking for is syncratism and the same can be said for the Hebrew religion which can be shown to have borrowed concepts from native paganisim, Zorastrianism, Sumerian origin myths, and Pharaoh Akhenaten's cult of the monotheistic sun god, Aten.
#65. To: ladybug (#63)
My original point was that (in my opinion) God asked his people not to participate, so I do not.
#66. To: swarthyguy (#42)
any theories exist as to why Dec 25 was picked
#67. To: Destro (#65)
Now the question is what shall we do for public places?
#68. To: Destro (#47)
Sure but tree worship? I don't think I know of an example.
#69. To: Destro (#64)
hen the Books of Hebrew History (the historical parts of the Hebrew Bible) came to be written during the Babylonian captivity, centuries later, Akhenaten became a template for Adam, and also for Abraham. The Israelite hero Moses, who in the Bible account led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, was based on Rameses, and his troublesome brother Aaron was the previous pharaoh, Horemheb, who succeeded Ay, and who tried to expunge all evidence of Aten worship and of his predecessors. Moses’ successor, Joshua, was Rameses’ successor Seti I. It is also argued that Hebrew was the lingua franca of the many different peoples at Akhet-Aten, borrowing from many sources including Egyptian and Ethiopian. The Exodus mystery has captured the attention of Western thinkers for centuries. Clemens of Alexandria in 200 AD was one of the first to mention a stunning similarity between the Egyptian symbols and those used by the ancient Hebrews
#70. To: tom007 (#68)
Note that the Romans wore oak garlands on their heads as a symbol of victory,(the strength of the oak) the Greeks used Olive garlands as a symbol of peace (Olive was a domestic oil for cleaning).
#71. To: Destro (#70)
(Edited)
Greeks also held the ivy to have some sacred significance
#72. To: tom007 (#68)
Note that the Romans wore oak garlands on their heads as a symbol of victory,(the strength of the oak) the Greeks used Olive garlands as a symbol of peace (Olive was a domestic oil for cleaning).
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