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Title: Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees
Source:
www.king5.com
URL Source: http://www.king5.com/localnews/stor ... ABairporttreesSW.1663eccf.html
Published: Dec 10, 2006
Author: www.king5.com
Post Date: 2006-12-10 22:04:55 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 2254
Comments: 138
Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees KING Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky SEATAC, Wash. - All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested. Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. "Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday. For many people the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season," said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District. After consulting with lawyers, port staff believed that adding the menorah would have required adding symbols for other religions and cultures in the Northwest. The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists. Maintenance workers boxed up the trees during the graveyard shift early Saturday, when airport bosses believed few people would notice. "We decided to take the trees down because we didn't want to be exclusive," said airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt. "We're trying to be thoughtful and respectful, and will review policies after the first of the year." Bogomilsky had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn't add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows. Hanukkah begins this Friday at sundown. "They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said Bogomilsky's lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch." 03:53 PM PST on Sunday, December 10, 2006
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#53. To: Destro (#51)
I don't know what dictionary you use, but according to Webster's pagan is defined as: Main Entry: pa·gan In case you might need a little help with polytheistic, here is Webster's definition: Main Entry: poly·the·ism OUT OF CONTEXT?????? Well now, if you'll look at the KING JAMES VERSION (there are already plenty of mistranslations in there - and ALL later versions are subject to even MORE MISTRANSLATIONS) you'll find that the "chisel" referred to in the Holman Christian Standard Bible in the KJV is an axe. The word axe is taken from the original manuscript Hebrew word maaseh, which is translated as AXE, NOT CHISEL... Now lets look at verse 5 in the KJV... Jer 10:5 They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good. Lets break this down to the original Hebrew... Upright is the Hebrew miqshah which means finely decorated cultic objects. (I would say christmas trees are finely decorated cultic objects) Palm tree is from the Hebrew tomer which means palm tree. Speak is from the Hebrew dabar meaning to speak. They must needs be borne is from the Hebrew nasa meaning to lift or carry. I could go on, but apparently NOWHERE in the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS from which the translations came is there any mention of a scarecrow or a cucumber patch!!!! And speaking of context, go back to Jer 10:2 (KJV), and the first sentence reads: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen.... Now go back and reread the definition of PAGAN... Pagan and heathen are interchangeable. Worshipers of multiple gods... I would suggest that a person seeking TRUTH be very careful of what they read. Like I said, the KJV is the first (that I know of) translation of the original manuscripts into English, and there are definitely some mistranslations in there. Every subsequent translation is open to even MORE mistranslation/misguidance.. Think about it - is it not the intent of Satan to deceive as many as possible???? And what is one of his strongest "tools" available for deceit??? RELIGION - he knows Scripture better than any of us, and if he can twist it he will...
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
For starters, I must question why, when replying to my comment, was I not included in the reply. I must presume that you had accurately guessed that I may not have liked what you had to say. 3 for the customs of the peoples are worthless. Someone cuts down a tree from the forest; [it is] worked by the hands of a craftsman with a chisel. 4 He decorates it with silver and gold. It is fastened with hammer and nails, so it won't totter. 5 Like scarecrows in a cucumber patch, their idols cannot speak. They must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them for they can do no harm — and they cannot do any good. This "version" of my Biblical quote is taken out of the Holman Christian Standard Bible, and I am sorry, I am not wanting to hear the will of God through ANY translation by any religious sect, and definitely NOT from the Christians (being a religion that most of us who like to research religion can agree celebrate PAGAN or non-Biblical holidays such as easter and christmas). Also when you Google this translation of the Bible, the very first link that comes up defines the HCSB as... Now this is more along the lines of Constantine blending religions for the sake of harmony with a modern twist (fabricated by Hagge, Falwell, Dobson, and the rest of those snakes kind of twist????? Aimed at a one world religion for a New World Order???) I mean hell, if no one has a Bible that any where near resembles the original text that it was SUPPOSEDLY translated from (kind of like a movie {LOOSELY} based on a true story, but people who lived the true story have to search hard for the similarities) isn't that a GREAT way to prevent people from learning the truth??? How many English speaking people would ever care to put forth the EFFORT to cross reference back to the original Hebrew??? Noone222, innieway and I are definitely among the minority there!!! I am very grateful of innieway taking the time to exhaustively respond for me, and save me some time. I guarantee that anyone who truly takes the time to research the ORIGINAL text, will not find scarecrow, or cucumber patch anywhere in the Bible. Also it is very convenient that where there is a passage telling us NOT to cut and adorn a tree of the forest (isn't that how we get christmas trees, cut them from the forest and adorn them???) that suddenly in a now multi-denominational Bible, this object is likened more to a scarecrow?? Well of course, who would want us to think that maybe God did now want us to observe this act on a so called Holy Day (Holi-day). That would be bad for business, think of all of the commercialism and commerce generated around this ceremony??? Maybe I am a little hard core on the subject or just a stick-in-the-mud, but I tend to look at the Bible as a Law Book more than a religious tool. Of course pulpit-parrots like all these translations that they can twist and pervert even further for whatever their purpose may be (I have yet to figure that one out). I simply wish to continue to ATTEMPT to live my life as best as I can,(I am FAR from perfect, in my eyes or in God's) as close to the way God intended as I can. That means that I will not participate in any of the "traditions of village people" as you put it, or pagan/heathen festivals of worship to false gods, as I like to look at it. Sure, the christmas season is then just another day, but hell, so is sunday!!!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
The above version is based on the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB). In any case it is about using idols made of wood covered in gold and silver foil representing Gods - not a form of proto-Christmas tree. As for what pagan means - that is what the word has morphed into in English but the original meaning of pagan (still a sur name for Italians and Spanish people) is rural folk - villagers. It is derived from the Latin pagus, whence pagani (i. e. those who live in the country), a name given to the country folk who remained heathen after the cities had become Christian. The eastern Greek Orthodox church preferred the more accurate term 'idolators'.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I thought I did - my bad - for it was your type of Protestant nuttery I wanted to answer.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That is a cross western heretics - both Latin and Protestant - have to bear. Though the Christmas tree decorating has spread to all over the world - even non-Christian Shinto Japanese like to keep Christmas trees - it is not a tradition found much in eastern Christianity. I am not here to defend what westerners have done to the Christian religion since I am not one of them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
We are all human, I can understand mistakes. Please take care when associating me to any sort of "religion" for I do not associate my self with any group who tries to "impose" their "interpretation" of scripture on others. Myself I simply read the words, and take them as they are written. I am not one to think that the Bible is written in a confusing fashion, It was simply originated in other languages, then translated into English at a time where the language was presented in a different fashion. If I do not understand a passage, I simply look up the original text, and then reread the passage until I can understand what it is saying. But this happens very rarely. Many times I like to look up the original text simply to appreciate the work and detail that it took to translate a book of such magnitude. As for "protestant nuttery", I believe that that is what the Holman Christian Standard Bible (New translation utilizing global, modern English and produced by multi-denominational, evangelical translators)that you like to quote scripture from, is spewing.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
December 25th occurs about the time of the Winter Solistice, the shortest day of the year. The shortening days were taken as a sign that the Sun was getting weaker. After the Solistice, the days begin to get longer ...... and pagan peoples thought that was an indication that the Sun was getting stronger. Thus, the Winter Solistice became the "birthday" of several gods: Attis, Frey, Thor, Dionysus, Osiris, Adonis, Mithra, Tammuz, Cernunnos and so forth. It is a "solar holiday," marking the time that the sun becomes apparently stronger day by day. This is a quote from Richard 9151 on another thread. If you look at each of the PAGAN gods that celebrate their birthday on the date that many christians "chose" to celebrate the birth of the King of Jews, it is clear that many of these religions have merged amongst themselves and also merged into christianity. With the winter solstice being of such importance and celebrated worldwide by means of many Pagan religions only gives credence to both my point and yours. Christmas has been celebrated by many names, originally had NOTHING to do with Christ, was originally a Pagan holiday that happened to spread far and wide. Eastern Christianity is among the oldest of christian traditions, and DOES NOT choose to celebrate with the Pagan idol of a "christmas" tree.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
you mean the sola scriptura heresy?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
It's possible. The term you are looking for is syncratism and the same can be said for the Hebrew religion which can be shown to have borrowed concepts from native paganisim, Zorastrianism, Sumerian origin myths, and Pharaoh Akhenaten's cult of the monotheistic sun god, Aten.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Comical, that people who need Mickey Mouse, over interpreted Bibles that talk about scarecrows in cucumber patches have to make up big words like "sola scriptura" and then call it a "heresy" simply because they can not understand what they read. For anyone who may be reading this thread, "sola Scriptura" is Latin for "by scripture alone" and it simply is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear to the rational reader, and its own interpreter. For starters, a heresy is not as bad as it sounds, for it is defined as theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox. By extension, heresy is an opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative. The entire protestant faith was founded by such means. Simply wishing to follow the Bible, as the Catholic church had strayed so far from it(of course, now protestants have strayed just as far with the progression of time). You may try to call it by any negative sounding Latin name that you wish, I simply believe that the Creator gave us laws to live by, asked mortals to record them for future generations, and hence we have a Bible. But unfortunately it has been adulterated over time, so now one has to dig through the trash (many version and translations) to find the truth that God originally intended for us to have and follow.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Agreed!!! I am glad that we can see eye to eye on something. My original point was that (in my opinion) God asked his people not to participate, so I do not.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten One of the most thought provoking theories is the following; Akhenaten devoted so much attention to his new capital city of Akhet-Aten that he let the rest of Egypt fall apart. Akhenaten was followed as pharaoh by Smenkhkare, then Tutankhamun, then Ay. He was the High Priest of Akhet-Aten, known as the Divine Father (an hereditary title). Although originally a believer in Aten, Ay realised Egypt had to return to the old gods. The priests of Aten wouldn’t reconvert, so they had to go, along with the mass of Aten believers. Ay showered them with gifts, and sent them off to colonise Canaan, where the priests, the Yahus, became the Judahites, settling in the south in Judah, while the ordinary believers settled in the north, in Israel. In this theory, Ay was so respected as the Divine Father that he became worshipped as a personification of God; in the Aramaic version of the Old Testament God is called Ay, not Yahweh, and the word Adonay, used by Jews to avoid saying the name of God, Yahweh, aloud, means “Lord Ay”. When the Books of Hebrew History (the historical parts of the Hebrew Bible) came to be written during the Babylonian captivity, centuries later, Akhenaten became a template for Adam, and also for Abraham. The Israelite hero Moses, who in the Bible account led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, was based on Rameses, and his troublesome brother Aaron was the previous pharaoh, Horemheb, who succeeded Ay, and who tried to expunge all evidence of Aten worship and of his predecessors. Moses’ successor, Joshua, was Rameses’ successor Seti I. It is also argued that Hebrew was the lingua franca of the many different peoples at Akhet-Aten, borrowing from many sources including Egyptian and Ethiopian. The Exodus mystery has captured the attention of Western thinkers for centuries. Clemens of Alexandria in 200 AD was one of the first to mention a stunning similarity between the Egyptian symbols and those used by the ancient Hebrews
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
My point is its none of anyones business either way. Now the question is what shall we do for public places? Like I wrote before - hard for me to care much when in America Christmas has a history of being outlawed, ignored or celebrated. So I can't get too worked up over any of this 'war on Christmas' BS because next year the American religious nuts may decide Christmas is bad for Christianity as was the case around 10 years ago when they did not want Christmas secular symbols. Now Christian religious activists want secular Christmas symbols.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
When the Roman Catholic Church rose upon the detritus of the Roman Empire, the Winter Equinox was a major celebration in Rome. Trees, perhaps pines, were festooned and garlanded, and people visited each others homes exchanging gifts and felicitations. Being Roman, they then proceeded to party with a vengeance. The old habits were hard to stamp out, and the Catholic Church, being pragmatic and unable to stamp out the old Saturnalia, simply proceeded to adopt it as its own, since the people were already celebrating the day and showed no signs of stopping. That's pretty much it. The Twelve Days of Light festival IIRC. Note the solstice is usually on the 21, but to an eye observer, it would understandably take another few days to confirm the sun was (appearently) riseing across the ecliptic plane. Then it was known for sure, the rebirth of the Sun, the damm cold weather was hoped to be ending was at hand, light conquered the killing darkness and cold. A good time to celebrate, not much work to do, or could be done, and the beer was ready from the grain harvest. Christmas trees are echos of Phallic worship of the ancients, (See the bible for the injunction of the Poles af Asharah) (Easter) fertility was a biggy concern back then.
Personally, I would rather NOT see these things in public, because of my PERSONAL beliefs. But instead if forcing MY will upon the masses, I simply avoid public places during this season. I do not do this simply because of christmas trees, but because the entire this disgusts me, all of the commercialism, people getting all stressed out - spending money they don't have, to give gifts that they are SUPPOSED to give simply because it is custom. Because I believe that these customs were born out of Pagan rites, makes it all the worse. Furthermore, there is nothing more meaningless to me than a gift that someone is SUPPOSED to give. I am a firm believer that IT IS the thought that counts. When the thought is "crap, it is christmas, i don't want so-and-so to think I am a skinflint so I had better come up with something good" simply disgusts me. If someone wants to show me that I am in their thoughts, send me a card, a letter or a gift when the calender does not tell them to. The entire thing makes me sick. But I say live and let live, if everyone who disliked christmas trees in public, simply did not patronize places that displayed them, either it would make no impact, or businesses would loose money and would change their holiday decorating to entice business. Either way, people would get to enjoy the season as they so desired.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
It is difficult to discern, but Oaks seemed to have a special place in the religion. See Sir James Fraizer and others. Wasn't quite tree worship, more along the lines of Numa, prolly the creator of Paganism, who was the "Deliver of Laws" to the romans after the defeat of the Tarquin the Proud the last of the hated kings of the very early Romen City, 680 BC?. He claimed that he consorted regularly with a female Goddess in a slyvian clearing who gave him the laws to give to the Roman People. Note that the Romans wore oak garlands on their heads as a symbol of victory,(the strength of the oak) the Greeks used Olive garlands as a symbol of peace (Olive was a domestic oil for cleaning).
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom Now that is interesting. Bookmarked for later investigation.
Like I wrote: Use of branches? Leaves? Sacred groves/trees? Sure! But tree worship? I don't think I know of an example. PS: The Greeks also held the ivy to have some sacred significance. Hence the link of higher education and 'ivy'.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That would be Misletoe, I think. As it remained green and "living" , when the cruel winter killed all life.The miseltoe typically living on an oak tree, it was held to be the "scared bough", representing, evidentially, eternal life. Exactly why this is so is a mystery, but the proponderous amount of textual and icon evidence strongly suggests it is so. So powerful that many hang the ivy over the doorways today.
Very interesting post, I had always known of the olive garland, but I did not know why or about the oak garland. Thank you for the tidbit!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Out of curiosity, I would truly LIKE to know what your point is. You seem to thoroughly enjoy the debate, and share many opinions without even pointing in the general direction of a point. Or do you take pleasure in the pointless, simple sake of arguing.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
I'd have to agree that much evidence supports this notion. The hyksos kings (Sheperd Kings) may have been the Israelites, and the story of Joseph bringing his family to Egypt to avoid the famine indicates something was in the works, as they were given the most desirable land holdings in Goshen, and the Scriptures indicate that Jacob (Israel) blessed the Pharoah, which in those days was something done by the superior personality to the lesser one.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined." Patrick Henry
I was aware of that as I checked the link to the verses you posted. We all have "preferences", and I prefer NOT to use a version which has things like scarecrows and cucumber patches which apparently were NOT in the original manuscripts... That this version was put out by modern evangelicals (who for the most part are nothing but lying Israel-firsters - Hagee comes to mind here) only makes the matter worse (to me)... Now if that's the version you want to use, that's your choice; and you certainly have a right to. However MOST of the posters of "religion" on 4 seem to use the KJV Personally, I don't have any problem understanding the English used in the KJV.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
No. The misletoe has a meaning to northern Europeans not to the southern Euorpeans. Ivy is not misletoe.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Then learn Greek like I did. How about not using whatever kind of translated version out of context like using lines meant to be against the carving of gilded idols and try to use that to show that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Like I wrote at #18. Though I celebrate/observe Christmas I don't get too excited about this new found American dilemma about Christmas observances because I know Christmas was once banned by some of the pre Revolution colonies and it was not observed by the Federal govt until 1870. Another reason I don't pay any attention to this war on Christmas is because Protestants in America tend to be irrational nuts. Protestants go from having problems with Christmas observances (calling them Papist and pagan at times) to now demanding that Christmas get its proper due. Just 10+ years ago or so I remember Protestants were waging a campaign against secular Christmas - wanting to put Jesus back into Christmas and to remove Christmas trees and Santa Clause and other secular trappings. Now the activists want all that and claim secularists are removing said symbols. That is my point.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Hellooooooooo.....the rabbi got a bad rap. Even Bill O'Reilly thinks so
Lookie, lookie. The rabbi does a talk radio show!
no wonder one little ol' rabbi had such pull ?!?
Congratulations on climbing that mountain. However, whether you read your scriptures in Jacobean or Corinthian, you'll get from them exactly what you want. That goes for the Koran and other like texts. Absent any kind of militant and vigilant authority you'll never get everyone to agree on what a particular chapter and verse means. Our faiths exist for many reasons not the least of which is that it halps us grapple with the problem of evil in the world. I fully appreciate the service that religion does for us in this regard. But from my perspective I see that religion in general operates as the servant of that evil quite as much as it acts as its adversary. We'd all do well to walk in the shoes of the Carpenter. However, I see little likelihood of that as a large scale social movement. We're far too busy tearing our neighbors a new one over the right to erect of forbid certain public symbols.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
Yup, I agree. But when someone takes a passage way out of context like was done I will call them on it.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
No doubt he won't take any phone calls that express how the majority of the people feel about having a happy festive decoration removed, that originated in the folklore of europe, that is not a symbol of Christmas or anything religious like a Nativity scene or a giant menorah.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Take a close look at that little sign tacked on the wall, in the upper right. The word 'christian' is there. I can't make out the rest.
Christmas trees are going back up at Sea-Tac airport The holiday trees that went away in the middle of the night are back. Tonight, Port of Seattle staff began putting up the trees they had taken down Friday night after a local rabbi requested that a Hanukkah menorah also be displayed. Port officials said the rabbi's lawyer had threatened to imminently file a lawsuit, leaving them with insufficient time to consider all the issues. A nationwide furor erupted over the weekend as news of the trees' removal spread, with a flood of calls to Port officials and harshly worded e-mails to Jewish organizations. Today, Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky said he would not file a lawsuit and the Port, in response, said it would put the trees back up. "This has been an unfortunate situation for all of us in Seattle," Port of Seattle Commission President Pat Davis said in a statement. "The rabbi never asked us to remove the trees; it was the Port's decision based on what we knew at the time. We very much appreciate the rabbi's willingness to work with us as we move forward." A menorah will not be displayed this year. Port spokesman Bob Parker said "we look forward to sitting down after the first of the year with not only Rabbi Bogomilsky but others as well, and finding ways to make sure there's an appropriate winter holiday representation for all faiths. We want to find out a way to celebrate the winter holidays that is sensitive to all faiths." Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're thrilled the trees are going back up." But he said he was disappointed that Port officials chose not to put up the menorah as well, pointing out there are still several days until the start of Hannukah. "I still hope that they'll consider putting the menorah up this year. But ultimately it's their decision." He also said he hopes the Port will apologize for mischaracterizations that led people to believe he was against having the trees displayed. "At the end of the day it's not about trees, but adding light to the holiday, not diminishing any light." advertising At the airport tonight, Matt Bachleda of Snohomish was playing cards while waiting for his daughter to arrive from Paris. He was surprised to see Port staff putting a tree back up in the baggage claim area. "It looks like Christmas is back," he said. The reaction to the trees' removal had been swift and vociferous. News outlets nationwide picked up the story. "There's been such an outcry from the public — from people of all faiths — who believe that the trees should be reinstalled," Davis said. "I'm very thankful that we can return the trees and get back to running our airport during this very busy holiday season." Port Commissioner John Creighton said he had been swamped with e-mails, 99.9 percent of which supported putting the trees put back up. "I'm overjoyed as to the resolution," Creighton said. "I'm very happy we were able to reach an agreement that was acceptable to the rabbi and to us." Creighton said he personally would've preferred the airport also put up a menorah this year. But "there's a fair amount of sensitvity at the airport. Whatever we do, we do after putting some thought into it." The situation began rather quietly back in late October or early November when Mitchell Stein, a construction consultant for the Port, contacted a Port staffer saying he'd like to put up a large menorah near the Christmas tree at the international arrival hall. Stein, who is Jewish and is friends with Bogomilsky, said he thought it would be a "great opportunity for the Port to show their joy and commitment to diversity." Over the next several weeks, though, he said, he was referred to several different people on staff, who told him different things about whether a menorah would be allowed. Stein said Harvey Grad, the rabbi's attorney, contacted the Port last week and sent officials there a legal brief as a way of spurring action, given that Hanukkah was coming up, and to let the Port know the legal precedents involved in the issue. It was not intended to be threatening, Stein said. When Port commissioners "told us just before Shabbat that they were taking down all the Christmas trees, we were totally aghast." But some Port commissioners said they first heard about a threatened lawsuit Thursday. "From what we were made to understand, if we didn't accede to the group's demands," they would file a lawsuit by the next day, Creighton said. "At the time, it seemed to be a reasonable solution to remove the Christmas trees." Not only the Port, but local Jewish organizations, felt the consequences of that decision. Robert Jacobs, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League, said about 14 organizations or rabbis had reported receiving hate e-mail. On Monday, his organization was advising local Jewish institutions that have received significant numbers of hate e-mails to consider having security during Hannukah and other holiday season events. This is not the first public clash over the traditional symbols of Christmas. For years, judges — including those of the U.S. Supreme Court — have been sorting out disputes over how nativity scenes and Christmas trees can be displayed in the lobbies of public buildings, in downtown plazas and in parks. The furor has been building for years. Last month, the Alliance Defense Fund, a religion-based legal aid group in Arizona, announced it had lined up an army of attorneys who were prepared to defend the tradition of Christmas in schools and on public property. "Frankly, it's ridiculous that Americans have to think twice about whether it's okay to say 'Merry Christmas,'" the group's president Alan Sears said. Federal law prohibits government entities from endorsing any religious symbols, proselytizing for religion or preferring any one religion over another, said John Strait, an associate professor of law at Seattle University. He said the Christmas holiday has become so secular that many symbols associated with it, such as the Christmas tree, have simply become symbols of the holiday. But legal debates rage over just how religious some symbols, such as the nativity scene, actually are. Strait said the menorah has achieved about the same religious status as a nativity scene. Stewart Jay, a law professor at the University of Washington, admits that the rules aren't always so clear. A holiday display, he said, is allowed as long as it mixes several holiday symbols and traditions. The Port of Seattle, Strait and Jay agree, could have allowed the menorah along with its Christmas tree in such a way that it would not have been an endorsement of religion. "And that would have been the end of it," Strait said. In fact, the Christmas trees on their own might have been problematic, Jay said. Adding a menorahmight have given the Port some legal cover. Across Washington, holiday displays and celebrations reflect the diversity of ways public and private bodies have found to recognize the holidays. Each year — for many years — Seattle City Hall has featured a Christmas tree, menorah and Kwanzaa display, the mayor's spokeswoman, Marianne Bichsel said. "We want to make sure that however people choose to celebrate this time of year, that it is honored," she said. In many school districts across the state, including Seattle and Bellevue, any holiday program or decorations must be tied to curriculum, officials there said. The city of Redmond celebrates the season with displays of evergreen branches with white lights, poinsettias and wreathes inside City Hall. Outside, an evergreen tree, part of the city's landscaping, is decorated with multi-colored lights. King County opts for "giving trees" in the lobby of the court house and the county administrative building. The trees include the names and gift wishes of people in need during the holiday, spokeswoman Carolyn Dunkin said. Last year, a Catholic lawmaker from Spokane and his supporters stirred up a hornets' nest when they sang Christmas carols in front of the giant holiday tree that dominates the Capitol rotunda in Olympia. Rep. John Ahern, a Republican, said the Washington-grown fir is a holiday tree, not a Christmas tree. Next week, following a lighting ceremony, a menorah will accompany that tree in the rotunda, said Steve Valandra spokesman for department of general administration, which oversees the capitol grounds. Staff writer Jennifer Sullivan contributed to this report. Janet Tu: 206-464-7727 or jtu@seattletimes.com; Lornet Turnbull: 206-464-2420 or lturnbull@seattletimes.com
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Talmud?
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Listening to the Fox radio station coming in this morning. They are spinning like a top. They had a series of rabbis on explaining how the Menorah was not really a religious symbol, just an icon for the season like a Christmas Tree. They are blaming "secular humanists" for the removal of the trees without explaining precisely why they are at fault or how they are even involved. I suppose we are supposed to think they hyptnotized the rabbi and forced him to threaten a lawsuit. The rubes are lapping it up with a spoon.
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http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=41282&Disp=86#C86 The trees are back, click link to post #86. Port officials said the rabbi's lawyer had threatened to imminently file a lawsuit, leaving them with insufficient time to consider all the issues.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Here near where I is, a coastal town, originally created as a refuge from the Puritanical jihadis of Salem, Massaschusetts, a few days after the New Year, Christmas trees are gathered near the beach and set on fire. A nice, big bonfire, rather paganistic, and the kids love it!
Now there is a holiday tradition that I could get into!!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
ok, lets talk about "out of context". Whether Jere 10 is talking about christmas trees or the predecessor thereof, The Man in Charge told us not to cut a tree out of the forest and adorn it with silver and gold. Well, that is enough for me. Not for any reason nor any season, in the name of any God or religion will I cut a tree and decorate it. Once again, I do not try to "interpret" scripture, I read and follow it, but do not try to make it into something else.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
It is a thrilling spectacle. Especially if there's a good moon floating nearby, some of the local goth-wiccan teenagers even do a circle dance around it. Usually too cold for any nudity or toplessness, even if the moms and cops weren't around. Drat.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestI don't mind talking about the potential intermixing of old 'pagan' (which just means village folk) traditions
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
belief in or worship of more than one god but please don't take biblical passages out of context.
#54. To: Destro (#51)
To: SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf
Jeremiah 10:3-5
New translation utilizing global, modern English and produced by multi-denominational, evangelical translators.
#55. To: innieway (#53)
#56. To: ladybug, SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#54)
For starters, I must question why, when replying to my comment, was I not included in the reply.
#57. To: ladybug, SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#54)
Also it is very convenient that where there is a passage telling us NOT to cut and adorn a tree of the forest (isn't that how we get christmas trees, cut them from the forest and adorn them???) that suddenly in a now multi-denominational Bible, this object is likened more to a scarecrow??
#58. To: Destro (#56)
thought I did - my bad - for it was your type of Protestant nuttery I wanted to answer.
#59. To: Destro (#57)
Though the Christmas tree decorating has spread to all over the world - even non-Christian Shinto Japanese like to keep Christmas trees - it is not a tradition found much in eastern Christianity.
#60. To: ladybug (#58)
(Edited)
Please take care when associating me to any sort of "religion" for I do not associate my self with any group who tries to "impose" their "interpretation" of scripture on others.
#61. To: ladybug (#59)
it is clear that many of these religions have merged amongst themselves and also merged into christianity.
#62. To: Destro (#60)
you mean the sola scriptura heresy?
#63. To: Destro (#61)
the same can be said for the Hebrew religion which can be shown to have borrowed concepts from native paganisim, Zorastrianism, Sumerian origin myths, and Pharaoh Akhenaten's cult of the monotheistic sun god, Aten.
#64. To: ladybug (#59)
It's possible. The term you are looking for is syncratism and the same can be said for the Hebrew religion which can be shown to have borrowed concepts from native paganisim, Zorastrianism, Sumerian origin myths, and Pharaoh Akhenaten's cult of the monotheistic sun god, Aten.
#65. To: ladybug (#63)
My original point was that (in my opinion) God asked his people not to participate, so I do not.
#66. To: swarthyguy (#42)
any theories exist as to why Dec 25 was picked
#67. To: Destro (#65)
Now the question is what shall we do for public places?
#68. To: Destro (#47)
Sure but tree worship? I don't think I know of an example.
#69. To: Destro (#64)
hen the Books of Hebrew History (the historical parts of the Hebrew Bible) came to be written during the Babylonian captivity, centuries later, Akhenaten became a template for Adam, and also for Abraham. The Israelite hero Moses, who in the Bible account led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, was based on Rameses, and his troublesome brother Aaron was the previous pharaoh, Horemheb, who succeeded Ay, and who tried to expunge all evidence of Aten worship and of his predecessors. Moses’ successor, Joshua, was Rameses’ successor Seti I. It is also argued that Hebrew was the lingua franca of the many different peoples at Akhet-Aten, borrowing from many sources including Egyptian and Ethiopian. The Exodus mystery has captured the attention of Western thinkers for centuries. Clemens of Alexandria in 200 AD was one of the first to mention a stunning similarity between the Egyptian symbols and those used by the ancient Hebrews
#70. To: tom007 (#68)
Note that the Romans wore oak garlands on their heads as a symbol of victory,(the strength of the oak) the Greeks used Olive garlands as a symbol of peace (Olive was a domestic oil for cleaning).
#71. To: Destro (#70)
(Edited)
Greeks also held the ivy to have some sacred significance
#72. To: tom007 (#68)
Note that the Romans wore oak garlands on their heads as a symbol of victory,(the strength of the oak) the Greeks used Olive garlands as a symbol of peace (Olive was a domestic oil for cleaning).
#73. To: Destro (#65)
My point is its none of anyones business either way.
#74. To: tom007 (#69)
The Israelite hero Moses, who in the Bible account led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, was based on Rameses, .... Moses’ successor, Joshua, was Rameses’ successor Seti I. It is also argued that Hebrew was the lingua franca of the many different peoples at Akhet-Aten, borrowing from many sources including Egyptian and Ethiopian. The Exodus mystery has captured the attention of Western thinkers for centuries. Clemens of Alexandria in 200 AD was one of the first to mention a stunning similarity between the Egyptian symbols and those used by the ancient Hebrews
#75. To: Destro (#55)
The above version is based on the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB).
#76. To: tom007 (#71)
That would be Misletoe, I think
#77. To: innieway (#75)
and I prefer NOT to use a version
#78. To: ladybug (#73)
(Edited)
Out of curiosity, I would truly LIKE to know what your point is.
#79. To: The rabbi got a bad rap. Just ask him (#77)
(Edited)
#80. To: All (#79)
(Edited)
http://www.chaiseattle.com/templates/articlecco.html?AID=110330
#81. To: Jethro Tull (#80)
#82. To: Destro (#77)
Then learn Greek like I did.
#83. To: randge (#82)
#84. To: Jethro Tull (#80)
Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, Host
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#85. To: robin (#84)
#86. To: Jethro Tull, ALL (#79)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#87. To: Jethro Tull (#85)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#88. To: robin (#0)
(Edited)
#89. To: ... (#88)
(Edited)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#90. To: Ferret Mike, Tom007, Destro, Burkeman1 (#52)
#91. To: swarthyguy (#90)
Christmas trees are gathered near the beach and set on fire. A nice, big bonfire,
#92. To: Destro, who knows what evil (#83)
But when someone takes a passage way out of context like was done I will call them on it.
#93. To: ladybug (#91)
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