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Title: Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees
Source:
www.king5.com
URL Source: http://www.king5.com/localnews/stor ... ABairporttreesSW.1663eccf.html
Published: Dec 10, 2006
Author: www.king5.com
Post Date: 2006-12-10 22:04:55 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 2124
Comments: 138
Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees KING Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky SEATAC, Wash. - All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested. Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. "Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday. For many people the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season," said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District. After consulting with lawyers, port staff believed that adding the menorah would have required adding symbols for other religions and cultures in the Northwest. The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists. Maintenance workers boxed up the trees during the graveyard shift early Saturday, when airport bosses believed few people would notice. "We decided to take the trees down because we didn't want to be exclusive," said airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt. "We're trying to be thoughtful and respectful, and will review policies after the first of the year." Bogomilsky had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn't add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows. Hanukkah begins this Friday at sundown. "They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said Bogomilsky's lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch." 03:53 PM PST on Sunday, December 10, 2006
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BTW, the Nativity scene with the baby Jesus is a religious display. comparable to a giant menorah. Tannenbaum is an ancient european custom, not a religious symbol.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." This country is fucked with political correctness and multiculturalist "sensitivity." I am sick of it. We are no longer free. Can anyone recommend a state we could take over, start a new country and seceed? [Preferably someplace without LaRaza brownshirt mexinazis] Regardless of how "religious;y" correct Christmas is, it is a tradition long held by many cultures including ours. Those who attempt to rabidly destroy the entire tradition by removing Christmas trees are assholes.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act - - George Orwell
Pagan, you mean.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Many old and even pagan traditions have been incorporated into local customs.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Personally, if this makes real Americans hate the Jews just a little bit more, I’m all for it!
Endless victim portrayals...
"It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep the rest in order; and those who have once got an ascendency and possessed themselves of all the resources of the nation, their revenues and offices, have immense means for retaining their advantages." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1798
Truth will out, you bastard.
"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win." --Mahatma K. Gandhi
I don't mind Christmas Trees, in fact I rather like the pine smell. What I find almost hilarious is that the moronic public (Christians and Jews) actually thinks the trees are symbolic of something Christian, when in fact they are purely symbolic of paganism and grove worship similar to that conducted at Bohemian Grove. Ironically, the Muslims seem to be indifferent, not finding it necessary to file suits continually to tear down everyones simple minded pleasures associated with the pagan holidays.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined." Patrick Henry
Let's start with Texas. There's no place like home.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
There's no place like home. Amen ... it is happening in Texas. Austin's dissident community is growing exponentially, and much credit is due Alex Jones, John Stadtmiller, and those that have supported their efforts who will remain unnamed by me. Many of us on this board are Texans and even though we occasionally disagree on the minor issues, we are in general agreement that politics as usual violates our humanity. I heard a caller to AJ's program recommend calling for a citizen's convention. Not only do I think it's a good idea, I believe that if we fail to mobilize before martial law is imposed, our opportunity to do so will be marginalized.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined." Patrick Henry
un-pc bump
Antarctica. Seriously, it's off the beaten path, there's very few people there now and only hardasses need apply. Ideally, the location of a colony would be away from the established research bases, with land exposure (as opposed to strictly ice), good geothermal gradient, etc...
"pound pastrami, can kraut, six bagels – bring home for Emma"
I wonder if the fundies who will be outraged by this are smart enough to realize that Israelis are Jews. Probably not. Looks like Israel learned the GOP lesson well. The more you back stab the fundies, and the harder you kick them in the teeth, the more thay will love you and robotically follow your instructions.
.
Something S&M about it all. Happy Holidays indeed.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Well that doesn't quite fit the MSM image of them does it?
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Another Free State for the Free State Project?
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Though I celebrate/observe Christmas I don't get too excited about this new found American dilemma about Christmas observances because I know Christmas was once banned by some of the pre Revolution colonies and it was not observed by the Federal govt until the early or mid 1800s. Another reason I don't pay any attention to this war on Christmas is because Protestants in America tend to be irrational nuts. Protestants go from having problems with Christmas observances (calling them Papist and pagan at times) to now demanding that Christmas get its proper due.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Do you have a link? I can't find this info anywhere.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." An Outlaw Christmas In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday. The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident. After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Oh for pity's sake. You're picking out something that Oliver Cromwell initiated as something to embrace!?! The Pilgrims (also gracing my family tree) were absolutely nutty about a few things. The Salem witch trials being among them. Now this Christmas nonsense. And that's not all, they were really strange about sex in general, wearing undergarments at all time. Do you suppose they knew what Gary Condit learned only centuries later? If that's all you've got, that's worse than nothing.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." "Who, me?" Nobody's buying that anymore Rebbe.
You can never tire of counting conflict diamonds.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
You think because it was not declared a federal holiday until 1870 that the birth of Christ was not celebrated until then? BTW, the shepherds on the hills indicates that Christ was born during the summer months (that's according to my 3rd grade Baptist Sunday School teacher).
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." un-pc bump Don't forget Three Kings Day.
You can never tire of counting conflict diamonds.
It was not a holiday until 1870 - the fact Congress did business on Christmas is proof that Christmas was not observed by the founding fathers in a manner you would find acceptable in this 'war on Christmas' hysteria mindset I imagine.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
It wasn't until the 19th century that Americans began to embrace Christmas. Americans re-invented Christmas, and changed it from a raucous carnival holiday into a family-centered day of peace and nostalgia. But what about the 1800s peaked American interest in the holiday? The early 19th century was a period of class conflict and turmoil. During this time, unemployment was high and gang rioting by the disenchanted classes often occurred during the Christmas season. In 1828, the New York city council instituted the city's first police force in response to a Christmas riot. This catalyzed certain members of the upper classes to begin to change the way Christmas was celebrated in America. In 1819, best-selling author Washington Irving wrote The Sketchbook of Geoffrey Crayon, gent., a series of stories about the celebration of Christmas in an English manor house. The sketches feature a squire who invited the peasants into his home for the holiday. In contrast to the problems faced in American society, the two groups mingled effortlessly. In Irving's mind, Christmas should be a peaceful, warm-hearted holiday bringing groups together across lines of wealth or social status. Irving's fictitious celebrants enjoyed "ancient customs," including the crowning of a Lord of Misrule. Irving's book, however, was not based on any holiday celebration he had attended - in fact, many historians say that Irving's account actually "invented" tradition by implying that it described the true customs of the season. Also around this time, English author Charles Dickens created the classic holiday tale, A Christmas Carol. The story's message-the importance of charity and good will towards all humankind-struck a powerful chord in the United States and England and showed members of Victorian society the benefits of celebrating the holiday. The family was also becoming less disciplined and more sensitive to the emotional needs of children during the early 1800s. Christmas provided families with a day when they could lavish attention-and gifts-on their children without appearing to "spoil" them. As Americans began to embrace Christmas as a perfect family holiday, old customs were unearthed. People looked toward recent immigrants and Catholic and Episcopalian churches to see how the day should be celebrated. In the next 100 years, Americans built a Christmas tradition all their own that included pieces of many other customs, including decorating trees, sending holiday cards, and gift-giving. Although most families quickly bought into the idea that they were celebrating Christmas how it had been done for centuries, Americans had really re-invented a holiday to fill the cultural needs of a growing nation.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Why not?? We do not meed a "more perfect union" but one which respects, first of all, our natural rights. Washington tolerates as customary rule of the many by criminal factions run by and for a few. It may soon find that that it has alienated people of various States to the extent that they may demand freedom from its grip as these factions are proving to be imcompetent and unable to govern a nation. DC may one day wake up to general resistance because in many way it has already seceeded from us.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
The Protestant long removed from the original church tradition kind of forgot why things were done when they were done by the early church and why. Christmas is not a 'birthday' - ancient peoples had no clue what day they were born - Christmas was a day set aside to celebrate Christ's birth - it had no connection with his birth - i.e. he was not born on that day and that was not why the early church selected that day. Many theories exist as to why Dec 25 was picked. It was an available holiday they could pick to avoid and to convert pagan celebrations is one theory I hold to. Christmas is in the language of the old church tradition a feast day.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
It was not declared a federal holday until 1870, that does not mean Christians did not celebrate Christmas before that.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Christ's Mass. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas The prominence of Christmas Day increased gradually after Charlemagne was crowned on Christmas Day in 800. King William I of England was crowned on Christmas Day 1066.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." I think it's a great idea.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Excuse me - get back on track. The whole point of this conversation is the public celebration/observance of the holiday is in not?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Iceland?
Christmas celebrates the birth of the "King of the Jews." What's this guy's problem? Doesn't anyone read scripture? (I know, I know, that's not popular to say.)
People are the public. Federally declared holidays follow the public observance. Get real. Read the history at the Wiki link. Americans before they were Americans celebrated Christmas. The original Grinch, Oliver Cromwell hated everything and everybody and of course Christmas. Maybe you like Cromwell, but no one else does.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Iceland's good.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Then in America it was not publicly observed until 1870.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
No, it's already its own nation, and it's close enough to the UK and US and strategic enough that there'd be a big armada there pounding the crap out of the folks declaring independance straight away. The place needs to seem to be a worthless pesthole, at least until the enterprising freedom lovers get enough numbers and prosperity going to be able to form a credible defense...
"pound pastrami, can kraut, six bagels – bring home for Emma"
Then in America it was not publicly observed until 1870. No, the public observance preceded the federal declaration by several centuries.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." What you need is some bad PR for a great place. Or, we could find a way to give a great place a really bad reputation.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." When the Roman Catholic Church rose upon the detritus of the Roman Empire, the Winter Equinox was a major celebration in Rome. Trees, perhaps pines, were festooned and garlanded, and people visited each others homes exchanging gifts and felicitations. Being Roman, they then proceeded to party with a vengeance. The old habits were hard to stamp out, and the Catholic Church, being pragmatic and unable to stamp out the old Saturnalia, simply proceeded to adopt it as its own, since the people were already celebrating the day and showed no signs of stopping.
Forgive me but I just don't see why I should care one way or the other. The only Christmas tree I care about is the one in my own house. Others can put them up or not as they wish. The same goes for menorahs.
Taht may be true in the West - may not be. The Christmas tree for example is not found in Eastern Christian forms of celebration until the 20th century. I know of no Italian tradition of Christmas trees - but I may be wrong.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Tree worship was a part and parcel of the preChristians of Europe. One theory I read was that the influence of the Hanoverian Dynasty upon England caused the importation of the practice, long adhered to in Germany. The old Royal Navy song, Hearts of Oak, was a residue of the worship of the towering oaks of England, some having grown so long they were over 250 feet tall.
CAIR names Lubavitch Rabbi Man of the Year!
I know of no such practice in the Roman world. Use of branches? Leaves? Sacred groves/trees? Sure but tree worship? I don't think I know of an example.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Well, yes, of course SOME of us read scripture. And I must assume, that by your comment that you are one of the people that do??? If you do read scripture, I should truly HOPE that YOU DO NOT observe Christmas, and DEFINATELY would not allow a Christmas tree in your home. And with your knowledge of scripture, I am sure that you have run across this little tidbit a time or two, and would take it to heart, but here is a refresher in case you did not realize its true implications, or its relevance to this PAGAN "Holi-day" But Christmas and Easter, the two "holiest" of Christian "Holi-days" are not days that the Bible instructs us to observe. Easter is mention ONCE in the entire 1189 Chapters of the Bible, and when researched out, it is found that the original word that it was translated from means passover. But on the other hand, Jews also celebrate Hanukkah, and that is not in the Bible either (along with other holidays). Now if anyone is curious as to why we celebrate Christmas on December 25, all they have to do is to take a good look at Mithraism. There were many likenesses between Mithraism and Christianity, in fact they had more in common than they had different. The biggest single difference in the two religions was that Mithraism did not allow women to participate. But Mithra was born on December 25, in a cave, of a virgin, and was a god that was a part of a holy trinity and so on and so forth. here is an excellent link if you would like to know more on that one. "Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
The history goes to Constantinople and the Solviticans. The converts to Christianity wouldn't give up their Solstice celebration, so the birthday celebration got moved to Dec. 25th.
Correct, here is another great link that I just found on another thread that is going on the 4um right now. http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/Constantine.htm My point was that the basis for Christmas comes from many places, NOT ONE of them being the Bible.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
I don't mind talking about the potential intermixing of old 'pagan' (which just means village folk) traditions with Christmas traditions in the West (Christmas is celebrated differently by eastern Christians) but please don't take biblical passages out of context. Jeremiah 10:3-5 deals not with idolatrous rites that resembles the use of a Christmas tree but of shaping out of wood idols of gods that are then plated with gold or silver foil. 3 for the customs of the peoples are worthless. Someone cuts down a tree from the forest; [it is] worked by the hands of a craftsman with a chisel. 4 He decorates it with silver and gold. It is fastened with hammer and nails, so it won't totter. 5 Like scarecrows in a cucumber patch, their idols cannot speak. They must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them for they can do no harm — and they cannot do any good.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
This is a very bad thing. The trees were dead and should have been keep as long as they were there. Removing them causes rancor. We had a Christmas tree removal from Eugene, Oregon firehouses, and everyone had Christmas trees in their pick-up trees complete with lights. If protesters start driving through the airport with Christmas trees in trucks they will make authorities and the media hysterical. I guarantee it. Imagine http://YouTube.com pieces showing that protest. Lit trees in trucks conveys the message and is photogenic. It is a good opportunity to make big painful stink.
I don't know what dictionary you use, but according to Webster's pagan is defined as: Main Entry: pa·gan In case you might need a little help with polytheistic, here is Webster's definition: Main Entry: poly·the·ism OUT OF CONTEXT?????? Well now, if you'll look at the KING JAMES VERSION (there are already plenty of mistranslations in there - and ALL later versions are subject to even MORE MISTRANSLATIONS) you'll find that the "chisel" referred to in the Holman Christian Standard Bible in the KJV is an axe. The word axe is taken from the original manuscript Hebrew word maaseh, which is translated as AXE, NOT CHISEL... Now lets look at verse 5 in the KJV... Jer 10:5 They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good. Lets break this down to the original Hebrew... Upright is the Hebrew miqshah which means finely decorated cultic objects. (I would say christmas trees are finely decorated cultic objects) Palm tree is from the Hebrew tomer which means palm tree. Speak is from the Hebrew dabar meaning to speak. They must needs be borne is from the Hebrew nasa meaning to lift or carry. I could go on, but apparently NOWHERE in the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS from which the translations came is there any mention of a scarecrow or a cucumber patch!!!! And speaking of context, go back to Jer 10:2 (KJV), and the first sentence reads: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen.... Now go back and reread the definition of PAGAN... Pagan and heathen are interchangeable. Worshipers of multiple gods... I would suggest that a person seeking TRUTH be very careful of what they read. Like I said, the KJV is the first (that I know of) translation of the original manuscripts into English, and there are definitely some mistranslations in there. Every subsequent translation is open to even MORE mistranslation/misguidance.. Think about it - is it not the intent of Satan to deceive as many as possible???? And what is one of his strongest "tools" available for deceit??? RELIGION - he knows Scripture better than any of us, and if he can twist it he will...
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
For starters, I must question why, when replying to my comment, was I not included in the reply. I must presume that you had accurately guessed that I may not have liked what you had to say. 3 for the customs of the peoples are worthless. Someone cuts down a tree from the forest; [it is] worked by the hands of a craftsman with a chisel. 4 He decorates it with silver and gold. It is fastened with hammer and nails, so it won't totter. 5 Like scarecrows in a cucumber patch, their idols cannot speak. They must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them for they can do no harm — and they cannot do any good. This "version" of my Biblical quote is taken out of the Holman Christian Standard Bible, and I am sorry, I am not wanting to hear the will of God through ANY translation by any religious sect, and definitely NOT from the Christians (being a religion that most of us who like to research religion can agree celebrate PAGAN or non-Biblical holidays such as easter and christmas). Also when you Google this translation of the Bible, the very first link that comes up defines the HCSB as... Now this is more along the lines of Constantine blending religions for the sake of harmony with a modern twist (fabricated by Hagge, Falwell, Dobson, and the rest of those snakes kind of twist????? Aimed at a one world religion for a New World Order???) I mean hell, if no one has a Bible that any where near resembles the original text that it was SUPPOSEDLY translated from (kind of like a movie {LOOSELY} based on a true story, but people who lived the true story have to search hard for the similarities) isn't that a GREAT way to prevent people from learning the truth??? How many English speaking people would ever care to put forth the EFFORT to cross reference back to the original Hebrew??? Noone222, innieway and I are definitely among the minority there!!! I am very grateful of innieway taking the time to exhaustively respond for me, and save me some time. I guarantee that anyone who truly takes the time to research the ORIGINAL text, will not find scarecrow, or cucumber patch anywhere in the Bible. Also it is very convenient that where there is a passage telling us NOT to cut and adorn a tree of the forest (isn't that how we get christmas trees, cut them from the forest and adorn them???) that suddenly in a now multi-denominational Bible, this object is likened more to a scarecrow?? Well of course, who would want us to think that maybe God did now want us to observe this act on a so called Holy Day (Holi-day). That would be bad for business, think of all of the commercialism and commerce generated around this ceremony??? Maybe I am a little hard core on the subject or just a stick-in-the-mud, but I tend to look at the Bible as a Law Book more than a religious tool. Of course pulpit-parrots like all these translations that they can twist and pervert even further for whatever their purpose may be (I have yet to figure that one out). I simply wish to continue to ATTEMPT to live my life as best as I can,(I am FAR from perfect, in my eyes or in God's) as close to the way God intended as I can. That means that I will not participate in any of the "traditions of village people" as you put it, or pagan/heathen festivals of worship to false gods, as I like to look at it. Sure, the christmas season is then just another day, but hell, so is sunday!!!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
The above version is based on the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB). In any case it is about using idols made of wood covered in gold and silver foil representing Gods - not a form of proto-Christmas tree. As for what pagan means - that is what the word has morphed into in English but the original meaning of pagan (still a sur name for Italians and Spanish people) is rural folk - villagers. It is derived from the Latin pagus, whence pagani (i. e. those who live in the country), a name given to the country folk who remained heathen after the cities had become Christian. The eastern Greek Orthodox church preferred the more accurate term 'idolators'.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I thought I did - my bad - for it was your type of Protestant nuttery I wanted to answer.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That is a cross western heretics - both Latin and Protestant - have to bear. Though the Christmas tree decorating has spread to all over the world - even non-Christian Shinto Japanese like to keep Christmas trees - it is not a tradition found much in eastern Christianity. I am not here to defend what westerners have done to the Christian religion since I am not one of them.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
We are all human, I can understand mistakes. Please take care when associating me to any sort of "religion" for I do not associate my self with any group who tries to "impose" their "interpretation" of scripture on others. Myself I simply read the words, and take them as they are written. I am not one to think that the Bible is written in a confusing fashion, It was simply originated in other languages, then translated into English at a time where the language was presented in a different fashion. If I do not understand a passage, I simply look up the original text, and then reread the passage until I can understand what it is saying. But this happens very rarely. Many times I like to look up the original text simply to appreciate the work and detail that it took to translate a book of such magnitude. As for "protestant nuttery", I believe that that is what the Holman Christian Standard Bible (New translation utilizing global, modern English and produced by multi-denominational, evangelical translators)that you like to quote scripture from, is spewing.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
December 25th occurs about the time of the Winter Solistice, the shortest day of the year. The shortening days were taken as a sign that the Sun was getting weaker. After the Solistice, the days begin to get longer ...... and pagan peoples thought that was an indication that the Sun was getting stronger. Thus, the Winter Solistice became the "birthday" of several gods: Attis, Frey, Thor, Dionysus, Osiris, Adonis, Mithra, Tammuz, Cernunnos and so forth. It is a "solar holiday," marking the time that the sun becomes apparently stronger day by day. This is a quote from Richard 9151 on another thread. If you look at each of the PAGAN gods that celebrate their birthday on the date that many christians "chose" to celebrate the birth of the King of Jews, it is clear that many of these religions have merged amongst themselves and also merged into christianity. With the winter solstice being of such importance and celebrated worldwide by means of many Pagan religions only gives credence to both my point and yours. Christmas has been celebrated by many names, originally had NOTHING to do with Christ, was originally a Pagan holiday that happened to spread far and wide. Eastern Christianity is among the oldest of christian traditions, and DOES NOT choose to celebrate with the Pagan idol of a "christmas" tree.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
you mean the sola scriptura heresy?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
It's possible. The term you are looking for is syncratism and the same can be said for the Hebrew religion which can be shown to have borrowed concepts from native paganisim, Zorastrianism, Sumerian origin myths, and Pharaoh Akhenaten's cult of the monotheistic sun god, Aten.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Comical, that people who need Mickey Mouse, over interpreted Bibles that talk about scarecrows in cucumber patches have to make up big words like "sola scriptura" and then call it a "heresy" simply because they can not understand what they read. For anyone who may be reading this thread, "sola Scriptura" is Latin for "by scripture alone" and it simply is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear to the rational reader, and its own interpreter. For starters, a heresy is not as bad as it sounds, for it is defined as theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox. By extension, heresy is an opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative. The entire protestant faith was founded by such means. Simply wishing to follow the Bible, as the Catholic church had strayed so far from it(of course, now protestants have strayed just as far with the progression of time). You may try to call it by any negative sounding Latin name that you wish, I simply believe that the Creator gave us laws to live by, asked mortals to record them for future generations, and hence we have a Bible. But unfortunately it has been adulterated over time, so now one has to dig through the trash (many version and translations) to find the truth that God originally intended for us to have and follow.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Agreed!!! I am glad that we can see eye to eye on something. My original point was that (in my opinion) God asked his people not to participate, so I do not.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten One of the most thought provoking theories is the following; Akhenaten devoted so much attention to his new capital city of Akhet-Aten that he let the rest of Egypt fall apart. Akhenaten was followed as pharaoh by Smenkhkare, then Tutankhamun, then Ay. He was the High Priest of Akhet-Aten, known as the Divine Father (an hereditary title). Although originally a believer in Aten, Ay realised Egypt had to return to the old gods. The priests of Aten wouldn’t reconvert, so they had to go, along with the mass of Aten believers. Ay showered them with gifts, and sent them off to colonise Canaan, where the priests, the Yahus, became the Judahites, settling in the south in Judah, while the ordinary believers settled in the north, in Israel. In this theory, Ay was so respected as the Divine Father that he became worshipped as a personification of God; in the Aramaic version of the Old Testament God is called Ay, not Yahweh, and the word Adonay, used by Jews to avoid saying the name of God, Yahweh, aloud, means “Lord Ay”. When the Books of Hebrew History (the historical parts of the Hebrew Bible) came to be written during the Babylonian captivity, centuries later, Akhenaten became a template for Adam, and also for Abraham. The Israelite hero Moses, who in the Bible account led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, was based on Rameses, and his troublesome brother Aaron was the previous pharaoh, Horemheb, who succeeded Ay, and who tried to expunge all evidence of Aten worship and of his predecessors. Moses’ successor, Joshua, was Rameses’ successor Seti I. It is also argued that Hebrew was the lingua franca of the many different peoples at Akhet-Aten, borrowing from many sources including Egyptian and Ethiopian. The Exodus mystery has captured the attention of Western thinkers for centuries. Clemens of Alexandria in 200 AD was one of the first to mention a stunning similarity between the Egyptian symbols and those used by the ancient Hebrews
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
My point is its none of anyones business either way. Now the question is what shall we do for public places? Like I wrote before - hard for me to care much when in America Christmas has a history of being outlawed, ignored or celebrated. So I can't get too worked up over any of this 'war on Christmas' BS because next year the American religious nuts may decide Christmas is bad for Christianity as was the case around 10 years ago when they did not want Christmas secular symbols. Now Christian religious activists want secular Christmas symbols.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
When the Roman Catholic Church rose upon the detritus of the Roman Empire, the Winter Equinox was a major celebration in Rome. Trees, perhaps pines, were festooned and garlanded, and people visited each others homes exchanging gifts and felicitations. Being Roman, they then proceeded to party with a vengeance. The old habits were hard to stamp out, and the Catholic Church, being pragmatic and unable to stamp out the old Saturnalia, simply proceeded to adopt it as its own, since the people were already celebrating the day and showed no signs of stopping. That's pretty much it. The Twelve Days of Light festival IIRC. Note the solstice is usually on the 21, but to an eye observer, it would understandably take another few days to confirm the sun was (appearently) riseing across the ecliptic plane. Then it was known for sure, the rebirth of the Sun, the damm cold weather was hoped to be ending was at hand, light conquered the killing darkness and cold. A good time to celebrate, not much work to do, or could be done, and the beer was ready from the grain harvest. Christmas trees are echos of Phallic worship of the ancients, (See the bible for the injunction of the Poles af Asharah) (Easter) fertility was a biggy concern back then.
Personally, I would rather NOT see these things in public, because of my PERSONAL beliefs. But instead if forcing MY will upon the masses, I simply avoid public places during this season. I do not do this simply because of christmas trees, but because the entire this disgusts me, all of the commercialism, people getting all stressed out - spending money they don't have, to give gifts that they are SUPPOSED to give simply because it is custom. Because I believe that these customs were born out of Pagan rites, makes it all the worse. Furthermore, there is nothing more meaningless to me than a gift that someone is SUPPOSED to give. I am a firm believer that IT IS the thought that counts. When the thought is "crap, it is christmas, i don't want so-and-so to think I am a skinflint so I had better come up with something good" simply disgusts me. If someone wants to show me that I am in their thoughts, send me a card, a letter or a gift when the calender does not tell them to. The entire thing makes me sick. But I say live and let live, if everyone who disliked christmas trees in public, simply did not patronize places that displayed them, either it would make no impact, or businesses would loose money and would change their holiday decorating to entice business. Either way, people would get to enjoy the season as they so desired.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
It is difficult to discern, but Oaks seemed to have a special place in the religion. See Sir James Fraizer and others. Wasn't quite tree worship, more along the lines of Numa, prolly the creator of Paganism, who was the "Deliver of Laws" to the romans after the defeat of the Tarquin the Proud the last of the hated kings of the very early Romen City, 680 BC?. He claimed that he consorted regularly with a female Goddess in a slyvian clearing who gave him the laws to give to the Roman People. Note that the Romans wore oak garlands on their heads as a symbol of victory,(the strength of the oak) the Greeks used Olive garlands as a symbol of peace (Olive was a domestic oil for cleaning).
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom Now that is interesting. Bookmarked for later investigation.
Like I wrote: Use of branches? Leaves? Sacred groves/trees? Sure! But tree worship? I don't think I know of an example. PS: The Greeks also held the ivy to have some sacred significance. Hence the link of higher education and 'ivy'.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That would be Misletoe, I think. As it remained green and "living" , when the cruel winter killed all life.The miseltoe typically living on an oak tree, it was held to be the "scared bough", representing, evidentially, eternal life. Exactly why this is so is a mystery, but the proponderous amount of textual and icon evidence strongly suggests it is so. So powerful that many hang the ivy over the doorways today.
Very interesting post, I had always known of the olive garland, but I did not know why or about the oak garland. Thank you for the tidbit!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Out of curiosity, I would truly LIKE to know what your point is. You seem to thoroughly enjoy the debate, and share many opinions without even pointing in the general direction of a point. Or do you take pleasure in the pointless, simple sake of arguing.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
I'd have to agree that much evidence supports this notion. The hyksos kings (Sheperd Kings) may have been the Israelites, and the story of Joseph bringing his family to Egypt to avoid the famine indicates something was in the works, as they were given the most desirable land holdings in Goshen, and the Scriptures indicate that Jacob (Israel) blessed the Pharoah, which in those days was something done by the superior personality to the lesser one.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined." Patrick Henry
I was aware of that as I checked the link to the verses you posted. We all have "preferences", and I prefer NOT to use a version which has things like scarecrows and cucumber patches which apparently were NOT in the original manuscripts... That this version was put out by modern evangelicals (who for the most part are nothing but lying Israel-firsters - Hagee comes to mind here) only makes the matter worse (to me)... Now if that's the version you want to use, that's your choice; and you certainly have a right to. However MOST of the posters of "religion" on 4 seem to use the KJV Personally, I don't have any problem understanding the English used in the KJV.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
No. The misletoe has a meaning to northern Europeans not to the southern Euorpeans. Ivy is not misletoe.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Then learn Greek like I did. How about not using whatever kind of translated version out of context like using lines meant to be against the carving of gilded idols and try to use that to show that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Like I wrote at #18. Though I celebrate/observe Christmas I don't get too excited about this new found American dilemma about Christmas observances because I know Christmas was once banned by some of the pre Revolution colonies and it was not observed by the Federal govt until 1870. Another reason I don't pay any attention to this war on Christmas is because Protestants in America tend to be irrational nuts. Protestants go from having problems with Christmas observances (calling them Papist and pagan at times) to now demanding that Christmas get its proper due. Just 10+ years ago or so I remember Protestants were waging a campaign against secular Christmas - wanting to put Jesus back into Christmas and to remove Christmas trees and Santa Clause and other secular trappings. Now the activists want all that and claim secularists are removing said symbols. That is my point.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Hellooooooooo.....the rabbi got a bad rap. Even Bill O'Reilly thinks so
Lookie, lookie. The rabbi does a talk radio show!
no wonder one little ol' rabbi had such pull ?!?
Congratulations on climbing that mountain. However, whether you read your scriptures in Jacobean or Corinthian, you'll get from them exactly what you want. That goes for the Koran and other like texts. Absent any kind of militant and vigilant authority you'll never get everyone to agree on what a particular chapter and verse means. Our faiths exist for many reasons not the least of which is that it halps us grapple with the problem of evil in the world. I fully appreciate the service that religion does for us in this regard. But from my perspective I see that religion in general operates as the servant of that evil quite as much as it acts as its adversary. We'd all do well to walk in the shoes of the Carpenter. However, I see little likelihood of that as a large scale social movement. We're far too busy tearing our neighbors a new one over the right to erect of forbid certain public symbols.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
Yup, I agree. But when someone takes a passage way out of context like was done I will call them on it.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
No doubt he won't take any phone calls that express how the majority of the people feel about having a happy festive decoration removed, that originated in the folklore of europe, that is not a symbol of Christmas or anything religious like a Nativity scene or a giant menorah.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Take a close look at that little sign tacked on the wall, in the upper right. The word 'christian' is there. I can't make out the rest.
Christmas trees are going back up at Sea-Tac airport The holiday trees that went away in the middle of the night are back. Tonight, Port of Seattle staff began putting up the trees they had taken down Friday night after a local rabbi requested that a Hanukkah menorah also be displayed. Port officials said the rabbi's lawyer had threatened to imminently file a lawsuit, leaving them with insufficient time to consider all the issues. A nationwide furor erupted over the weekend as news of the trees' removal spread, with a flood of calls to Port officials and harshly worded e-mails to Jewish organizations. Today, Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky said he would not file a lawsuit and the Port, in response, said it would put the trees back up. "This has been an unfortunate situation for all of us in Seattle," Port of Seattle Commission President Pat Davis said in a statement. "The rabbi never asked us to remove the trees; it was the Port's decision based on what we knew at the time. We very much appreciate the rabbi's willingness to work with us as we move forward." A menorah will not be displayed this year. Port spokesman Bob Parker said "we look forward to sitting down after the first of the year with not only Rabbi Bogomilsky but others as well, and finding ways to make sure there's an appropriate winter holiday representation for all faiths. We want to find out a way to celebrate the winter holidays that is sensitive to all faiths." Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're thrilled the trees are going back up." But he said he was disappointed that Port officials chose not to put up the menorah as well, pointing out there are still several days until the start of Hannukah. "I still hope that they'll consider putting the menorah up this year. But ultimately it's their decision." He also said he hopes the Port will apologize for mischaracterizations that led people to believe he was against having the trees displayed. "At the end of the day it's not about trees, but adding light to the holiday, not diminishing any light." advertising At the airport tonight, Matt Bachleda of Snohomish was playing cards while waiting for his daughter to arrive from Paris. He was surprised to see Port staff putting a tree back up in the baggage claim area. "It looks like Christmas is back," he said. The reaction to the trees' removal had been swift and vociferous. News outlets nationwide picked up the story. "There's been such an outcry from the public — from people of all faiths — who believe that the trees should be reinstalled," Davis said. "I'm very thankful that we can return the trees and get back to running our airport during this very busy holiday season." Port Commissioner John Creighton said he had been swamped with e-mails, 99.9 percent of which supported putting the trees put back up. "I'm overjoyed as to the resolution," Creighton said. "I'm very happy we were able to reach an agreement that was acceptable to the rabbi and to us." Creighton said he personally would've preferred the airport also put up a menorah this year. But "there's a fair amount of sensitvity at the airport. Whatever we do, we do after putting some thought into it." The situation began rather quietly back in late October or early November when Mitchell Stein, a construction consultant for the Port, contacted a Port staffer saying he'd like to put up a large menorah near the Christmas tree at the international arrival hall. Stein, who is Jewish and is friends with Bogomilsky, said he thought it would be a "great opportunity for the Port to show their joy and commitment to diversity." Over the next several weeks, though, he said, he was referred to several different people on staff, who told him different things about whether a menorah would be allowed. Stein said Harvey Grad, the rabbi's attorney, contacted the Port last week and sent officials there a legal brief as a way of spurring action, given that Hanukkah was coming up, and to let the Port know the legal precedents involved in the issue. It was not intended to be threatening, Stein said. When Port commissioners "told us just before Shabbat that they were taking down all the Christmas trees, we were totally aghast." But some Port commissioners said they first heard about a threatened lawsuit Thursday. "From what we were made to understand, if we didn't accede to the group's demands," they would file a lawsuit by the next day, Creighton said. "At the time, it seemed to be a reasonable solution to remove the Christmas trees." Not only the Port, but local Jewish organizations, felt the consequences of that decision. Robert Jacobs, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League, said about 14 organizations or rabbis had reported receiving hate e-mail. On Monday, his organization was advising local Jewish institutions that have received significant numbers of hate e-mails to consider having security during Hannukah and other holiday season events. This is not the first public clash over the traditional symbols of Christmas. For years, judges — including those of the U.S. Supreme Court — have been sorting out disputes over how nativity scenes and Christmas trees can be displayed in the lobbies of public buildings, in downtown plazas and in parks. The furor has been building for years. Last month, the Alliance Defense Fund, a religion-based legal aid group in Arizona, announced it had lined up an army of attorneys who were prepared to defend the tradition of Christmas in schools and on public property. "Frankly, it's ridiculous that Americans have to think twice about whether it's okay to say 'Merry Christmas,'" the group's president Alan Sears said. Federal law prohibits government entities from endorsing any religious symbols, proselytizing for religion or preferring any one religion over another, said John Strait, an associate professor of law at Seattle University. He said the Christmas holiday has become so secular that many symbols associated with it, such as the Christmas tree, have simply become symbols of the holiday. But legal debates rage over just how religious some symbols, such as the nativity scene, actually are. Strait said the menorah has achieved about the same religious status as a nativity scene. Stewart Jay, a law professor at the University of Washington, admits that the rules aren't always so clear. A holiday display, he said, is allowed as long as it mixes several holiday symbols and traditions. The Port of Seattle, Strait and Jay agree, could have allowed the menorah along with its Christmas tree in such a way that it would not have been an endorsement of religion. "And that would have been the end of it," Strait said. In fact, the Christmas trees on their own might have been problematic, Jay said. Adding a menorahmight have given the Port some legal cover. Across Washington, holiday displays and celebrations reflect the diversity of ways public and private bodies have found to recognize the holidays. Each year — for many years — Seattle City Hall has featured a Christmas tree, menorah and Kwanzaa display, the mayor's spokeswoman, Marianne Bichsel said. "We want to make sure that however people choose to celebrate this time of year, that it is honored," she said. In many school districts across the state, including Seattle and Bellevue, any holiday program or decorations must be tied to curriculum, officials there said. The city of Redmond celebrates the season with displays of evergreen branches with white lights, poinsettias and wreathes inside City Hall. Outside, an evergreen tree, part of the city's landscaping, is decorated with multi-colored lights. King County opts for "giving trees" in the lobby of the court house and the county administrative building. The trees include the names and gift wishes of people in need during the holiday, spokeswoman Carolyn Dunkin said. Last year, a Catholic lawmaker from Spokane and his supporters stirred up a hornets' nest when they sang Christmas carols in front of the giant holiday tree that dominates the Capitol rotunda in Olympia. Rep. John Ahern, a Republican, said the Washington-grown fir is a holiday tree, not a Christmas tree. Next week, following a lighting ceremony, a menorah will accompany that tree in the rotunda, said Steve Valandra spokesman for department of general administration, which oversees the capitol grounds. Staff writer Jennifer Sullivan contributed to this report. Janet Tu: 206-464-7727 or jtu@seattletimes.com; Lornet Turnbull: 206-464-2420 or lturnbull@seattletimes.com
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Talmud?
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Listening to the Fox radio station coming in this morning. They are spinning like a top. They had a series of rabbis on explaining how the Menorah was not really a religious symbol, just an icon for the season like a Christmas Tree. They are blaming "secular humanists" for the removal of the trees without explaining precisely why they are at fault or how they are even involved. I suppose we are supposed to think they hyptnotized the rabbi and forced him to threaten a lawsuit. The rubes are lapping it up with a spoon.
.
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=41282&Disp=86#C86 The trees are back, click link to post #86. Port officials said the rabbi's lawyer had threatened to imminently file a lawsuit, leaving them with insufficient time to consider all the issues.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Here near where I is, a coastal town, originally created as a refuge from the Puritanical jihadis of Salem, Massaschusetts, a few days after the New Year, Christmas trees are gathered near the beach and set on fire. A nice, big bonfire, rather paganistic, and the kids love it!
Now there is a holiday tradition that I could get into!!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
ok, lets talk about "out of context". Whether Jere 10 is talking about christmas trees or the predecessor thereof, The Man in Charge told us not to cut a tree out of the forest and adorn it with silver and gold. Well, that is enough for me. Not for any reason nor any season, in the name of any God or religion will I cut a tree and decorate it. Once again, I do not try to "interpret" scripture, I read and follow it, but do not try to make it into something else.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
It is a thrilling spectacle. Especially if there's a good moon floating nearby, some of the local goth-wiccan teenagers even do a circle dance around it. Usually too cold for any nudity or toplessness, even if the moms and cops weren't around. Drat.
Stop right there. The passage is about use of carved gilded idols. Not about trees decorated for some proto-Christmas ceremony. Any attempt to say otherwise is an affront to truth - historic and theological.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The Puritans of Plymouth actually attacked other settlements in the early years they considered "ungodly". Weirdly- Salem was created by a group that wanted to get away from Plymouth's religious oppression.
George Gordon bump
Good point. I DO wish I knew Greek, along with Hebrew, and I'm sure I could add in quite a few more languages I wish I knew..... I cede. You may be right about the "christmas tree" thing... BUT, show me where in Scripture "christmas" is proclaimed a holiday. (Well, I haven't read the Holman Christian Standard Bible, it MIGHT be in there - mixed in somewhere in the cucumber patch - but if it is it'll be guarded by a scarecrow) THAT is my point. Christmas to me has no meaning - it is nothing. I don't celebrate it; and in fact it is only another winter day. I will work on christmas - no problem... BUT don't ask me to work on the Sabbath.... So if you want to celebrate a HOLY DAY which was made "holy" by man instead of the Creator don't let me get in your way... Have fun and enjoy the "season". Pagan (even if they're only just the villagers) traditions are simply that - and have no validity whatsoever with me. I'll just leave this thread with this verse (from the KJV, I can't say what the evangelicals and HCSB have it translated as) and since it's from NEW TESTAMENT, and PAUL to boot!!!!,all the "christians" can take heart: Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Precisely. If I am wrong about 'Christmas', it doesn't matter. I am not disobeying the King of Kings by NOT observing 'Christmas', and I'm saving a lot time and money, to boot. :-)
The Church proclaimed it a holiday. The same Church that created the scripture and that predates the writing of the New Testament. The holiday it proclaimed does not resemble what it has become in the USA/Protestant countries. But beyond us trying to convert each other my point is just to be accurate to history. I objected to the passages above being used as proof that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible. That is all.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That is not what Christ said. "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Mat 22:21
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Then buy an artificial tree. Problem solved.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Glad you were there to set us straight on it!!!! NO, it ISN'T what the Messiah said.... READ the passage!!! It was spoken by PETER. But the Messiah DID say in Matthew 7:6 (According to Holman's) Don't give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before pigs, or they will trample them with their feet, turn, and tear you to pieces. So let me get this straight. You are tearing a few of us to pieces over a christmas tree opinion when NOWHERE in Scripture can you find that christmas is a HOLY DAY as mandated by the Creator?????? You readily admit it's a creation of MAN!!! YOU PIG!!!!!
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Note to self: LUKE wrote Acts, not Paul.... Kinda sucks when accuracy counts and I make a fuck up like this....
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
And it was the first time in history.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
OK.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
OK, unless I am as ignorant as you must think that I am, I do believe that you are either dodging the question that innieway was asking, or you simply cannot comprehend it. He was asking if you admitted that the so called "Holiday" of christmas was a creation of man, and somehow now you are talking about man creating the church. Well duh, of course man created religion. God simply founded laws for us to abide by and we have twisted that all to hell (sounds like some threads I have read lately). Second, I have no idea what god is spoken of and honoured in the Holman Bible, but the God that I fear and hold dear is the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. THIS GOD NEVER MADE HIMSELF A MAN!!! He sent us a son, but the christ was never, is never and will never be a GOD All of the Messiah's teachings were simple, that man had already gone astray, and reminded us over and over to follow his father. He NEVER stated look at me, I am God but continually pointed us towards his father, as he was sent to do. Of course I can only speak for the Bibles I have read, maybe it is different in your scarecrow book that bears the title of Bible.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Yes, it is a creation of man. That is not a problem since that is part of Church tradition - to honor saints - to set aside a day to celebrate and honor them. Protestants who are later day Christians who do not come from the original seed of Christ may have a problem with it. It is an absurd question/premise as well. I know Protestant nuts think Jesus wrote the New Testament and the Bible but he did not. Men wrote those Gospels. That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Most every sect on earth seeing the others as hertics, the whole sad circle of tribalism and pomposity. All claiming they are for peace, yet it seems when given half a chance mass murder is the main service to be held in their church. Organized religion and their followers have alot to be weighed in the balance. A few are humble - many are full of hubris. How is one to respond to men like Robertson (if he is the one, to me these guys are all one sicko entity) who asked for the assaination of Chavez, if we are Christians? Or the the character who claimed homos were responsible for 9-11. Or this rapture nonsense. And the killing video game based on it. Islam is full of sickos, and from what I can see, the US Christian movement is as well. Note in Denver today we had yet another evangelical bigshot having to admit he had homo liasons. Just a rant.
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Me too. Seems Destro is saying the Catholics have it right, and everyone else is going to hell... Of course, that's the common thinking among ALL organized religions isn't it? I mean the Lutherans know they're right, and the rest just "went astray" somewhere; the Methodists know they have the "upper hand" in getting into Heaven; the Baptists know they're right and "pity all the ones that aren't Baptist we won't be seeing them in Heaven"; the Catholics KNOW they're right - after all it was JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF that started the Catholic church, and ALL other Christian religions are merely offshoots of Catholocism and therefore CAN'T be right about anything (but at least the others get to sit it out in Purgatory or Limbo or somewhere for a while to think about it and realize the folly of their ways and then MIGHT get to go to Heaven); the Muslims are positive theirs is the way, and as a super bonus they get 70 virgins when they get to Heaven; the Mormons have already been to Heaven and now all they're doing is living a life on earth to prove themselves worthy to get back to Heaven; and the Wiccans think we're ALL NUTS...... I'd be willing to bet that the followers of Mithraism were just as adamant about the Holy Trinity they believed in as are today's Christians, as were the Babylonians about theirs, and the Egyptians about theirs..... I wonder if the followers of any of the other religions actually PRACTICE what is in the "book" they CLAIM to follow, or if they do like Christians and just practice what is convenient for them and ignore the rest by way of some rationalization that "it doesn't mean that"????? I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs - which by extension would mean avoiding DOCTORS... Like I said, I can't speak Greek, BUT call it witchcraft call it drugs call it whatever the hell you want to I FOLLOW SCRIPTURE and AVOID DOCTORS AT ALL COST!!!!! Been many many years since I've been to one. I guess I'm ignorant, but at least I think I have enough common sense to be able to tell what Scripture is saying, and can follow it.... We all know Christians don't have a problem with going to the doctor to get "drugs" - even if they are told NOT to in Scripture....
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
You know every time I see a Christian do some good work or make a personal sacrifice of some sort, my early Christian training kicks in and I think to myself "Thesw Christians really are good folks. Christianity does send out a special message to us all." Then some clown come out with some needlessly divisive poison, and I remember why I fell from the way. Comments such as these are poison. Such vain and pompous assertions mined out of scripture of one kind or another are the very bombs that Shia and Sunni toss at each other today. They are the original seed of distrust and hatred that are the ally of nearly every quarrel over rights and property and honor on this earth. They make little wars out of those quarrels and big wars out of little wars. It makes me literally sick to hear such twaddle come from the lips of an educated man. My forbears were protestants, and protestants too do not lack ideological venom. Listening to Ian Paisley on the TV when I was growing up used to make me ashamed that I once shared a confession with that man. Your no doubt sincere observation, sir, is a just one more senseless provocation in a world that has had quite enough of them. It is a sin.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
Jesus specifically organized his followers. He specifically said his church should be one. Note that I seek to convert no one - I am a classicist and a historian - the statement said above is a heresy in the Greek meaning of the word. If you prefer a more neutral term how about the views expressed above are deviation from the original?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
No. The Catholic Church is also a deviation from the original - for example the early church never held concepts like immaculate conception and original sin like the Catholics did and the original Church allowed for married clergy. Those are just some examples - I can go on with other heretical notions the Catholics hold....
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Sorry. Some Protestant faiths - especially but not including some American brands - make me sick. I grew up reading their crap - like Satan is dancing every time I listen to Rock music and that Rock music is a Satanic plot. Look at what Protestant website the above conversation was linked to. I view Protestants the same way I view feminists and multiculturists that want to throw out the cannon of classical civilization for a new idea or a new way of thinking.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That is why I react in horror to such ravings. I am a historian - my interest in theology is to understand the history. Language and meaning of words changes over time. For example 'cool' does not only mean cold temperature today. Mad once meant crazy now it is used mostly to mean angry. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek - the Lingua Franca of its time. Like all languages some words have slang meanings specific to their times and practices. During the era of the New Testament there was a wide spread practice of going to potion makers who sold you potions. In the Koine Greek the term was pharmaka - but that also meant real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time. A straight translation of words from the past is not possible without understanding how the words were used by the people of that era as well. The above excerpt refers to avoiding potion makers not medical MD doctors. That you use that to avoid doctors on a religious basis is so wrong I am in pain for you and I am angry at whatever religious cult made you think this.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
You, sir, are like every sectarian that I have ever known. You look at life through a toilet paper tube and you think it is a telescope. You study Latin and Greek and Hebrew and Arabic. And you become militant. Now you are looking through a paper towel roll. You can see to the ends of the universe. When your perspective is sufficiently diminished you begin killing your fellow man. This is true of marxists and other sad dogmtics and relics of what were once healthy human beings. Enjoy your dance with Mr. Satan. You're made for each other.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
I am tolerant. "Tolerant, but not stupid! Look, just because you have to tolerate something doesn't mean you have to approve of it! ..."Tolerate" means you're just putting up with it! You tolerate a crying child sitting next to you on the airplane or, or you tolerate a bad cold. It can still piss you off!" -- Mr. Garrison 'South Park'.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
OK, I'll accept that since I did not know the difference or that there was such a thing as Koine Greek. OK, so the word used in the New Testament which was mistranslated as "witchcraft" in the KJV was used to mean "real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time". Your words, not mine - but I'll buy that. I'm sure you know. You are the Greek linguistic expert. I was under the impression that you just explained how the word pharmaka was used by the people of the New Testament writing era. So if it meant "real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time", then why does it NOW mean ONLY "potion makers" and NOT medical MD doctors??? You seem to be contradicting yourself. In fact you ARE contradicting yourself. Did not the Creator tell us He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow??? I suppose He saw the folly in His ways from time to time (apparently He changed His mind on things like eating pork. At one time it was NOT to be eaten, but I guess He realized that Law was a mistake for one reason or another so He changed it to allow us to eat all the pig we want) BUT if that's the case then He's a LIAR because He changed - which would mean that He ISN'T the same today as yesterday... And we're just left to guess at to how He'll be tomorrow.... WELL, I don't believe that!!!! If you want to, I don't care. No more than you care what I believe. And the TRUTH is it doesn't make a damn one way or the other what EITHER of us believes!!!! There is a TRUTH in the matter, and that TRUTH exists - INDEPENDENT of what either of us believes... One day we shall KNOW the TRUTH..... That "religious cult" is Scripture... I do NOT listen to the "pulpit parrots", and am not a member of any "cult"... In Scripture we were told by the Creator that He gave us everything we need. I avoid doctors - and ONE reason is that I never get sick. PERHAPS that is a reward by the CREATOR for following HIS HEALTH LAWS, which include the food laws. PERHAPS His food laws were given to us to keep the immune system which HE created strong!!! So there is no need for you to be "in pain" for me!!! I'm NOT in pain, and if you are DON'T blame it on either ME or the Creator... Just go to the doctor (who uses the word "practice" to describe his career - which implies that he is just that, PRACTICING - not COMPETENT) and take whatever poison he prescribes to you... And while you're on that poison you may want to pick up a copy of a Physician's Desk Reference and read about all the ILL effects of the "medicine" you are taking. You might be very surprised to learn that for example antibiotics can actually cause heart disease (not my words, cited straight from a PDR)... As for me - I'm going to put my trust and faith in what the Creator said - and avoid any profession which uses as it's symbol 2 snakes climbing up a pole!!!! Maybe I'm loony, but it seems to me that in Scripture a snake played a huge part in the downfall of man.. NOT what I want to put my faith in!!! BTW, you might want to check out the numbers on iatrogenic "disease"; diseases and deaths CAUSED by doctors and their drugs. You might be shocked. "Legal" drugs (prescription and OTC) kill more people each year than all the "illegal" ones combined... I'd say that's a poor track record. Like I said, I don't want nor care to attempt to "change" your beliefs. I know you aren't going to change mine... I'll live as I see fit, and I'm sure you will too. So you can reply to this if you want - but I'm done.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
One more time. Pharmaka has dual meanings and to get at the meaning in the New Testament you need to know the context. In the 1st century AD pharmakia meant potions and it could also mean regular medicine depending on the context. That does not mean regular medicine was considered witchcraft. A Koine Greek speaker would understand what context the word was used in. For example take the word 'mad'. Did calling someone mad mean they are angry or crazy? An old English speaker of Shakespear's day would understand the context of 'mad' as meaning crazy while a speaker of American English would understand 'mad' meaning angry. Clear? If not my apologies.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Mmmm, tolerant. You've hit on the right word there. Being tolerant means that you will accept a certain amount of what you otherwise find repugnant. I infer from you writings that there is a great deal of stuff that you find repugnant. No need to tolerate me, though. You'll find me rather intolerant.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Most every sect on earth seeing the others as hertics, the whole sad circle of tribalism and pomposity. All claiming they are for peace, yet it seems when given half a chance mass murder is the main service to be held in their church. Amen. Muh gawd is the true one, No mine! No Mine! Off with yer head! A brief history of Monotheism.
You may begin apologizing now. You are so full of "education" that you do nothing but talk in circles. All you care to do is pick and argue. No matter what point is placed in from of you, you must debate it. Then, when allowed time to come full circle, you end up supporting the original point that you were debating. I have to absolutely agree with Randge on this point, but unfortunately you put crap in the tube before calling it a telescope. For instance, innieway asked in post 31, (this is christmas thread), to which you had to stand up as the Greek expert you are, and pick this all apart, as per you MO, and reply, in part with..(post 32, this is christmas thread) so when innieway applied your definition to scripture, you had to say that he had it all wrong again, and eventually came back around to the original statement that innieway made saying that the scripture was correctly translated using the word witchcraft to describe that actions of the people that were going on and that we were told by God, not to follow!!! destro, post 119, Pharmaka has dual meanings and to get at the meaning in the New Testament you need to know the context. In the 1st century AD pharmakia meant potions and it could also mean regular medicine depending on the context. Point number two that I gleaned from your babble is simply, apparently your beloved laguage, as you described it Greek is probably the most scholarly and exact language humanity has ever developed is not as exact as you say, or we would know if scripture were describing drugs, doctors or witchcraft, without endless debate. Once again, your babbling has disproved you. Also, in post 99,you stated, The Church proclaimed it a holiday. The same Church that created the scripture and that predates the writing of the New Testament.If the church had created scripture, I would not even bother with it at all, except to burn it. Religion, over the years, has proven to be of the most corrupt and agenda motivated organizations in the world. Why in the hell would I want to follow their teachings??? Oh, yeah, I DON'T Because God "wrote" scripture, having man put pen to paper for him. I do NOT affiliate nor follow with any religious group or organization. I simply read and follow God's word. I believe I clarified the following of your accusing drivel above :post 108, destro It is an absurd question/premise as well. I know Protestant nuts think Jesus wrote the New Testament and the Bible but he did not. Men wrote those Gospels. More of your accusing drivel:That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies. You also seem to have a thing with using the term heresy in a negative light. I would not necessarily recommend that here on the forum, because in a sense, everyone on the forum is a heretic in one sense of the word or another. Your definition of heresy: post 112, I would recommend that before you accuse anyone of thinking a certain way or being affiliated with a certain group, that you should quit being completely ignorant of what others are saying. Instead you take everything out of context and twist it into something completely different. My final point being that I am always up for an intelligent debate, but not wasting my time with someone who wants to nitpick in circles. My advice, take your damn toilet paper tube to the nearest mirror, and argue with yourself all you want. I refuse to waste any more of my time with you.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Careful on the tolerance but, You know he is the authority, I mean hell, he got his definition of tolerance from a cartoon that has more vulgarity in a half hour than I encounter in my life in a month. But Southpark is the authoritative truth on this one!!!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
The translation of the word is correct per say - I take issue with your interpretation of that word to equate medicine with being against God. Being able to communicate in Greek is something I don't apologize for. It is a blessing to be able to read the New Testament in its original form.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Very perceptive. Intolerance of course is an anti-conservative principal (by that I mean small govt - leave people alone - classical libertarian conservative).
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The word "heresy" comes from the Greek hairesis (from haireomai, "choose"), which means either a choice of beliefs or a faction of dissident believers. Please give pride of place to the language that invented the word - why would you say Webster's is more accurate than the original language the English took the word from? It was given wide currency by St. Irenaeus 130–202 AD in his tract 'Contra Haereses'(Against Heresies) to describe and discredit his opponents in the early Christian Church. He described his own position as orthodox (from ortho- "right" + doxa "thinking") and his position eventually evolved into the position of the early Christian Church.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Do you carry around a bottle of Windex too? "The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Americans would be well advised to live by the family values on display in that movie.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Great movie and family.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Listen you ignorant schmuck, once again you prove that you CANNOT READ ANYTHING IN CONTEXT I never claimed that Webster was more accurate than the ORIGINAL, I simply stated that Webster is the best authority that we have on OUR language and its MODERN usage
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
How Christian of you.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
A. I never claimed to be christian (If you were able to comprehend what you read, you would have notice when I posted twice that I do not associate myself with any religious group or organization). B. I do not find that it should be considered wrong in any circle to tell the truth and call it like I see it
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
It does not matter. You are what you are.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
How Christian of you. Yes it is..... Good Christian... You get 5 stars!!!!!!! YOUR FUCKING TAGLINE...... Hypocrite.......
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Very true, and you are an ignorant schmuck. Once again you prove yourself. Your typical christian: 1. They eat swine - Leviticus 11: 4-8 Deuteronomy 14 Hmm, I just don't seem to fit the bill of being a Christian, because I live by the laws that the Creator gave us, and christians live by the rules of their church, and Roman civil law. You can go ahead and nitpick any of these scriptures that you wish, but this is how your average christian lives, and I will not live this way. You can say that I am wrong all you wish, but ANYONE who knows me will attest to the fact that this "christian way" is nowhere near how I live my life - therefore the label "christian" simply does not fit me. In Matthew 6:7 Messiah tells us that most Christian churches are pagan 2Corinthians 11:13 In John 7:19 Messiah tells us that God's Law as given to Moses still applies At the time the Messiah walked the earth, the New Testament hadn't been written. Therefore, all references by Yashua Messiah concerning the Law are references to the Old Testament. If you do not choose to live your life this way, I cannot stop you, and would not try if I could. I shall only feel sorry for the lack of luster in your life as you brood in your shell of ignorance.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
It's hypocritical to bitch about public funds being spent on a widely celebrated national-social holiday (why does that phrase give me the willies?) while at rock bottom four billion dollars of taxpayer money is skirted off to "the Jewish State." And the Jews are the ones pushing common sense out of schools too... :)
When the going gets weird the weird turn pro. - Hunter S Thompson
To the Christians the Old Testament came to an end when the Word was made flesh. Hence a New Testament. If you believe in the Christian God that is. Mark 10:5 WEY: "It was in consideration of your stubborn hearts," said Jesus, "that Moses enacted this law for you;"
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Duh, one more reason I am not a christian Once again, you prove your own ignorance!!!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#2. To: robin, lodwick (#0)
(Edited)
All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle- Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
In a CorporoFascist capitalist society, there is no money in peace, freedom, or a healthy population, and therefore, no incentive to achieve these - - IndieTX
#3. To: robin (#1)
Tannenbaum is an ancient european custom, not a religious symbol.
#4. To: Destro (#3)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#5. To: robin (#0)
Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision.
#6. To: robin (#0)
"There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."
“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"
#7. To: karelian, robin (#5)
(Edited)
said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District.
Those Looney Lubes
#8. To: robin (#0)
"There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."
#9. To: robin (#4)
#10. To: IndieTX (#2)
Can anyone recommend a state we could take over, start a new country and seceed?
#11. To: randge, Indie Tx, All Texans (#10)
Let's start with Texas.
#12. To: IndieTX, Destro, robin, all (#2)
Please fast-forward me to 2 Jan 07...
-Thomas Paine
#13. To: IndieTX (#2)
Can anyone recommend a state we could take over, start a new country and seceed?
#14. To: robin (#0)
#15. To: ... (#14)
Looks like Israel learned the GOP lesson well. The more you back stab the fundies, and the harder you kick them in the teeth, the more thay will love you and robotically follow your instructions.
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#16. To: noone222 (#9)
Ironically, the Muslims seem to be indifferent, not finding it necessary to file suits continually to tear down everyones simple minded pleasures associated with the pagan holidays.
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#17. To: randge, IndieTX (#10)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#18. To: lodwick, IndieTX, robin, ferretmike, all (#12)
(Edited)
#19. To: Destro (#18)
I know Christmas was once banned by some of the pre Revolution colonies and it was not observed by the Federal govt until the early or mid 1800s.
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#20. To: robin (#19)
#21. To: Destro (#20)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#22. To: robin (#0)
"They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said Bogomilsky's lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."
#23. To: robin (#21)
After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.
#24. To: Destro (#23)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#25. To: lodwick (#12)
Please fast-forward me to 2 Jan 07...
#26. To: robin (#24)
You think because it was not declared a federal holiday until 1870 that the birth of Christ was not celebrated until then?
#27. To: robin (#21)
You think because it was not declared a federal holiday until 1870 that the birth of Christ was not celebrated until then?
#28. To: robin (#17)
(Edited)
#29. To: robin (#24)
BTW, the shepherds on the hills indicates that Christ was born during the summer months (that's according to my 3rd grade Baptist Sunday School teacher).
#30. To: Destro (#26)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#31. To: Destro (#29)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#32. To: randge (#28)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#33. To: robin (#30)
It was not declared a federal holday until 1870, that does not mean Christians did not celebrate Christmas before that.
#34. To: Axenolith (#13)
Ideally, the location of a colony would be away from the established research bases, with land exposure (as opposed to strictly ice), good geothermal gradient, etc...
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#35. To: Robin, Brian S, Christine, Honway, Aristeides, Diana, All (#0)
#36. To: Destro (#33)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#37. To: who knows what evil, Axenolith, Diana, randge (#34)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#38. To: robin (#36)
Federally declared holidays follow the public observance.
#39. To: who knows what evil (#34)
#40. To: Destro (#38)
Federally declared holidays follow the public observance.
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#41. To: Axenolith, randge (#39)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#42. To: Destro (#29)
(Edited)
Many theories exist as to why Dec 25 was picked
#43. To: robin (#0)
#44. To: swarthyguy (#42)
#45. To: Destro (#44)
#46. To: Destro (#44)
#47. To: swarthyguy (#45)
Tree worship was a part and parcel of the preChristians of Europe.
#48. To: SKYDRIFTER, Destro, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#35)
(Edited)
Christmas celebrates the birth of the "King of the Jews." What's this guy's problem? Doesn't anyone read scripture?
Jer 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
No where that I have found in the Bible tells us to celebrate any birthday, and I have never found mention of this "Christ's Mass" or that it was to be observed as Holy. Now there are several other occasions that ARE mentioned in scripture that ARE to be observed as such, but of course, you never hear anyone mention the Feast of Trumpets, Feast of Weeks, Feast of the Tabernacle, and so on. Jew's are the only ones commonly KNOWN to observe passover (any one other than a Jew that would celebrate Passover is just weird, right??)
Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
#49. To: ladybug (#48)
#50. To: SKYDRIFTER (#49)
The history goes to Constantinople and the Solviticans. The converts to Christianity wouldn't give up their Solstice celebration, so the birthday celebration got moved to Dec. 25th.
#51. To: SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#50)
(Edited)
#52. To: lodwick, IndieTX, christine (#12)
#53. To: Destro (#51)
I don't mind talking about the potential intermixing of old 'pagan' (which just means village folk) traditions
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
belief in or worship of more than one god but please don't take biblical passages out of context.
#54. To: Destro (#51)
To: SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf
Jeremiah 10:3-5
New translation utilizing global, modern English and produced by multi-denominational, evangelical translators.
#55. To: innieway (#53)
#56. To: ladybug, SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#54)
For starters, I must question why, when replying to my comment, was I not included in the reply.
#57. To: ladybug, SKYDRIFTER, karelian, swarthyguy, alpowolf (#54)
Also it is very convenient that where there is a passage telling us NOT to cut and adorn a tree of the forest (isn't that how we get christmas trees, cut them from the forest and adorn them???) that suddenly in a now multi-denominational Bible, this object is likened more to a scarecrow??
#58. To: Destro (#56)
thought I did - my bad - for it was your type of Protestant nuttery I wanted to answer.
#59. To: Destro (#57)
Though the Christmas tree decorating has spread to all over the world - even non-Christian Shinto Japanese like to keep Christmas trees - it is not a tradition found much in eastern Christianity.
#60. To: ladybug (#58)
(Edited)
Please take care when associating me to any sort of "religion" for I do not associate my self with any group who tries to "impose" their "interpretation" of scripture on others.
#61. To: ladybug (#59)
it is clear that many of these religions have merged amongst themselves and also merged into christianity.
#62. To: Destro (#60)
you mean the sola scriptura heresy?
#63. To: Destro (#61)
the same can be said for the Hebrew religion which can be shown to have borrowed concepts from native paganisim, Zorastrianism, Sumerian origin myths, and Pharaoh Akhenaten's cult of the monotheistic sun god, Aten.
#64. To: ladybug (#59)
It's possible. The term you are looking for is syncratism and the same can be said for the Hebrew religion which can be shown to have borrowed concepts from native paganisim, Zorastrianism, Sumerian origin myths, and Pharaoh Akhenaten's cult of the monotheistic sun god, Aten.
#65. To: ladybug (#63)
My original point was that (in my opinion) God asked his people not to participate, so I do not.
#66. To: swarthyguy (#42)
any theories exist as to why Dec 25 was picked
#67. To: Destro (#65)
Now the question is what shall we do for public places?
#68. To: Destro (#47)
Sure but tree worship? I don't think I know of an example.
#69. To: Destro (#64)
hen the Books of Hebrew History (the historical parts of the Hebrew Bible) came to be written during the Babylonian captivity, centuries later, Akhenaten became a template for Adam, and also for Abraham. The Israelite hero Moses, who in the Bible account led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, was based on Rameses, and his troublesome brother Aaron was the previous pharaoh, Horemheb, who succeeded Ay, and who tried to expunge all evidence of Aten worship and of his predecessors. Moses’ successor, Joshua, was Rameses’ successor Seti I. It is also argued that Hebrew was the lingua franca of the many different peoples at Akhet-Aten, borrowing from many sources including Egyptian and Ethiopian. The Exodus mystery has captured the attention of Western thinkers for centuries. Clemens of Alexandria in 200 AD was one of the first to mention a stunning similarity between the Egyptian symbols and those used by the ancient Hebrews
#70. To: tom007 (#68)
Note that the Romans wore oak garlands on their heads as a symbol of victory,(the strength of the oak) the Greeks used Olive garlands as a symbol of peace (Olive was a domestic oil for cleaning).
#71. To: Destro (#70)
(Edited)
Greeks also held the ivy to have some sacred significance
#72. To: tom007 (#68)
Note that the Romans wore oak garlands on their heads as a symbol of victory,(the strength of the oak) the Greeks used Olive garlands as a symbol of peace (Olive was a domestic oil for cleaning).
#73. To: Destro (#65)
My point is its none of anyones business either way.
#74. To: tom007 (#69)
The Israelite hero Moses, who in the Bible account led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, was based on Rameses, .... Moses’ successor, Joshua, was Rameses’ successor Seti I. It is also argued that Hebrew was the lingua franca of the many different peoples at Akhet-Aten, borrowing from many sources including Egyptian and Ethiopian. The Exodus mystery has captured the attention of Western thinkers for centuries. Clemens of Alexandria in 200 AD was one of the first to mention a stunning similarity between the Egyptian symbols and those used by the ancient Hebrews
#75. To: Destro (#55)
The above version is based on the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB).
#76. To: tom007 (#71)
That would be Misletoe, I think
#77. To: innieway (#75)
and I prefer NOT to use a version
#78. To: ladybug (#73)
(Edited)
Out of curiosity, I would truly LIKE to know what your point is.
#79. To: The rabbi got a bad rap. Just ask him (#77)
(Edited)
#80. To: All (#79)
(Edited)
http://www.chaiseattle.com/templates/articlecco.html?AID=110330
#81. To: Jethro Tull (#80)
#82. To: Destro (#77)
Then learn Greek like I did.
#83. To: randge (#82)
#84. To: Jethro Tull (#80)
Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, Host
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#85. To: robin (#84)
#86. To: Jethro Tull, ALL (#79)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#87. To: Jethro Tull (#85)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#88. To: robin (#0)
(Edited)
#89. To: ... (#88)
(Edited)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#90. To: Ferret Mike, Tom007, Destro, Burkeman1 (#52)
#91. To: swarthyguy (#90)
Christmas trees are gathered near the beach and set on fire. A nice, big bonfire,
#92. To: Destro, who knows what evil (#83)
But when someone takes a passage way out of context like was done I will call them on it.
#93. To: ladybug (#91)
#94. To: ladybug, who knows what evil (#92)
Whether Jere 10 is talking about christmas trees or the predecessor thereof
#95. To: swarthyguy (#90)
#96. To: ladybug (#54)
Maybe I am a little hard core on the subject or just a stick-in-the-mud, but I tend to look at the Bible as a Law Book more than a religious tool.
-Thomas Paine
#97. To: Destro, Who Knows What Evil, Randge, Tom007, Lodwick (#77)
Then learn Greek like I did. How about not using whatever kind of translated version out of context like using lines meant to be against the carving of gilded idols and try to use that to show that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible.
#98. To: innieway (#97)
We ought to obey God rather than men.
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#99. To: innieway (#97)
You may be right about the "christmas tree" thing... BUT, show me where in Scripture "christmas" is proclaimed a holiday.
#100. To: who knows what evil, innieway (#98)
We ought to obey God rather than men.
#101. To: ladybug, swarthyguy (#92)
The Man in Charge told us not to cut a tree out of the forest and adorn it with silver and gold. Well, that is enough for me.
#102. To: Destro (#100)
That is not what Christ said.
#103. To: All (#97)
(Edited)
and PAUL to boot!!!!
#104. To: innieway (#102)
You readily admit it's a creation of MAN
#105. To: Destro (#104)
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man.
#106. To: innieway (#105)
And it was the first time in history.
#107. To: Destro (#104)
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man
#108. To: ladybug (#107)
He was asking if you admitted that the so called "Holiday" of christmas was a creation of man
#109. To: Destro, ladybug (#108)
That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
#110. To: tom007, Destro (#109)
That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
#111. To: Destro (#108)
(Edited)
Protestants who are later day Christians who do not come from the original seed of Christ
#112. To: tom007 (#109)
Organized religion and their followers have alot to be weighed in the balance.
#113. To: innieway, tom007 (#110)
Seems Destro is saying the Catholics have it right, and everyone else is going to hell
#114. To: randge (#111)
#115. To: innieway, tom007 (#110)
(Edited)
I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs - which by extension would mean avoiding DOCTORS... Like I said, I can't speak Greek, BUT call it witchcraft call it drugs call it whatever the hell you want to I FOLLOW SCRIPTURE and AVOID DOCTORS AT ALL COST!!!!!
#116. To: Destro (#114)
(Edited)
#117. To: randge (#116)
#118. To: Destro (#115)
The New Testament was written in Koine Greek
During the era of the New Testament there was a wide spread practice of going to potion makers who sold you potions. In the Koine Greek the term was pharmaka - but that also meant real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time.
A straight translation of words from the past is not possible without understanding how the words were used by the people of that era as well. The above excerpt refers to avoiding potion makers not medical MD doctors.
That you use that to avoid doctors on a religious basis is so wrong I am in pain for you and I am angry at whatever religious cult made you think this.
#119. To: innieway (#118)
(Edited)
OK, so the word used in the New Testament which was mistranslated as "witchcraft" in the KJV was used to mean "real non magic medicine made by real doctors of that time". Your words, not mine - but I'll buy that. I'm sure you know. You are the Greek linguistic expert.
#120. To: Destro (#117)
I am tolerant.
#121. To: tom007 (#109)
#122. To: Destro (#119)
Clear? If not my apologies.
You look at life through a toilet paper tube and you think it is a telescope.
Are we not told in Scripture NOT to participate in witchcraft?????? (At least the KJV does, I can't say for the HCSB) AND what is the Greek word for witchcraft?????? Is it not PHARMAKIA????????
Pharmakia does not mean witchcraft it means drugs in Greek
innieway post 110, I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs ,
A two year old could plainly see that there you have come full circle with all your knowledge, to support a statement that you originally were trying to disprove. I did gather two points out of all your babbling. You do not think that any of this has anything to do with doctors, well, innieway and I both do. Personally, doctors have done me nothing but physical and permanent HARM due to their incompetence. I firmly believe that God granted us everything we need to live healthful lives, including the laws to follow to keep us from major illness. Of course, if you do not abide his laws, and use his gifts, you will need these pill pushers, who sent you with little notes to the PHARMACY (dang that sounds like the original Greek Pharmakia, don't it)to get your pills to survive all of the ill's that you have brought upon yourself. And of course most people has a major illness will NOT even CONSIDER that they may have been able to do something to prevent it. OK, live your life in a state of illness, I won't stop you, I am simply saying that there is a better way. It is more than a matter of whether or not the Lord told us not to go to doctors, but the fact that he ensured that if we truly follow him, there is no need!!!
I never denied the Holy Trinity, I believe that there is God(the father), The Messiah(the son), and the Holy Ghost. I simply denied that god ever made himself a man as you had claimed in an earlier post. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are not themselves God, for there is only one God, his son and the Holy Ghost are two other separate entities, making three Holy entities, total, hence, a trinity (FYI prefix tri=three, debate that!) the statement said above is a heresy in the Greek meaning of the word. If you prefer a more neutral term how about the views expressed above are deviation from the original?
Webster definition of heresy: theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox. By extension, heresy is an opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative.
Hmmm, nothing about deviance from the ORIGINAL there, once again, debate all you want, but when using descriptive terms, in OUR language, in MODERN times, I consider Websters to be the authority, not you or the original Greek. More of your own statements:post 114, I view Protestants the same way I view feminists and multiculturists that want to throw out the cannon of classical civilization for a new idea or a new way of thinking.
For starters, I despise feminism. If you take a close look at a woman's life in Biblical times, they actually had a better life, and more rights than men. Granted those rights were different than that of a man, and not all women considered then better due to the fact that following these biblical ways meant that women had to answer to men. But when you truly look at it, women were cared for from the cradle to the grave, and had (what I believe was)a far better life than that of a modern career woman. And I life my life according to the Bible, how is that throwing out "the cannon of classical civilization"??? Seems like my life is closer to that of ancient times than your average woman today. Granted, I do work, some. But my dad called all of the shots in my life until marriage, now my sweetheart does. If I were to become a widow, Either my dad, one of my brothers, or possibly even a nephew will be responsible for me. It is not always easy having others make the final decision for you, and I can definitely see where a selfish or cruel man could make a woman's life miserable. But all of the men in my life care about what is best for me.
#123. To: randge (#120)
Mmmm, tolerant. You've hit on the right word there.
#124. To: ladybug (#122)
so when innieway applied your definition to scripture, you had to say that he had it all wrong again, and eventually came back around to the original statement that innieway made saying that the scripture was correctly translated using the word witchcraft
#125. To: randge (#120)
Being tolerant means that you will accept a certain amount of what you otherwise find repugnant. I infer from you writings that there is a great deal of stuff that you find repugnant.
#126. To: ladybug (#122)
I consider Websters to be the authority, not you or the original Greek
#127. To: Destro (#126)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#128. To: robin (#127)
#129. To: Destro (#128)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#130. To: Destro (#126)
why would you say Webster's is more accurate than the original language the English took the word from
#131. To: ladybug (#130)
Listen you ignorant schmuck
#132. To: Destro (#131)
How Christian of you.
#133. To: ladybug (#132)
#134. To: Destro (#131)
Listen you ignorant schmuck
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom,
#135. To: Destro (#133)
It does not matter. You are what you are.
2. They eat shellfish - Leviticus 11: 9,10 Deuteronomy 14
3. They take oaths - Matthew 5: 33-37 James 5: 12
4. They celebrate Christmas - Jeremiah 10: 1-6
5. They don't celebrate Passover - Exodus 12: 14
6. They don't celebrate Feast of Unleavened Bread - Exodus 12: 17
7. They don't practice Pentecost - Leviticus 23
8. They don't celebrate Feast of Trumpets - Lev 23
9. They don't celebrate Day of Atonement - Lev 23
10. They don't celebrate Feast of Tabernacles - Lev 23
11. They don't follow the Sabbath (Fri at sunset to Sat at sunset) - Lev 23
12. They practice usury (pay or receive interest on money) Exodus 22:25 Ezekiel 18:5-14 (8) Deut 23:19,20
13. They don't practice Land Sabbath - Lev 25 (the penalty is in Lev 26:34)
14. They eat fat and blood - Lev 3:17 Lev 19:26
15. They plant mingled seed (hybrids) - Lev 19:19
16. They wear mingled fabrics - Lev 19:19
17. They crossbreed cattle - Lev 19:19
18. They don't have a problem with tattoos - Lev 19:28
19. The participate in the census - 2Samuel 24:1-25
20. They practice astrology (horoscope) - Lev 19:26
21. They don't follow a system of Just Weights and Measures - Lev 19:35,36 Proverbs 16:11 Prov 20:10,23 Micah 6:11 Deut 25:13-16
22.They add to the law - Deut 4:2
23. Many practice homosexuality - Lev 18:22 Lev 20:13 Romans 1:26
#136. To: ladybug, everyone (#135)
(Edited)
#137. To: ladybug (#135)
#138. To: Destro (#137)
To the Christians the Old Testament came to an end when the Word was made flesh
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