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Title: Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees
Source:
www.king5.com
URL Source: http://www.king5.com/localnews/stor ... ABairporttreesSW.1663eccf.html
Published: Dec 10, 2006
Author: www.king5.com
Post Date: 2006-12-10 22:04:55 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 2502
Comments: 138
Rabbi appalled by airport's removal of Christmas trees KING Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky SEATAC, Wash. - All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested. Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. "Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday. For many people the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season," said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District. After consulting with lawyers, port staff believed that adding the menorah would have required adding symbols for other religions and cultures in the Northwest. The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists. Maintenance workers boxed up the trees during the graveyard shift early Saturday, when airport bosses believed few people would notice. "We decided to take the trees down because we didn't want to be exclusive," said airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt. "We're trying to be thoughtful and respectful, and will review policies after the first of the year." Bogomilsky had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn't add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows. Hanukkah begins this Friday at sundown. "They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said Bogomilsky's lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch." 03:53 PM PST on Sunday, December 10, 2006
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#71. To: Destro (#70)
(Edited)
That would be Misletoe, I think. As it remained green and "living" , when the cruel winter killed all life.The miseltoe typically living on an oak tree, it was held to be the "scared bough", representing, evidentially, eternal life. Exactly why this is so is a mystery, but the proponderous amount of textual and icon evidence strongly suggests it is so. So powerful that many hang the ivy over the doorways today.
Very interesting post, I had always known of the olive garland, but I did not know why or about the oak garland. Thank you for the tidbit!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Out of curiosity, I would truly LIKE to know what your point is. You seem to thoroughly enjoy the debate, and share many opinions without even pointing in the general direction of a point. Or do you take pleasure in the pointless, simple sake of arguing.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
I'd have to agree that much evidence supports this notion. The hyksos kings (Sheperd Kings) may have been the Israelites, and the story of Joseph bringing his family to Egypt to avoid the famine indicates something was in the works, as they were given the most desirable land holdings in Goshen, and the Scriptures indicate that Jacob (Israel) blessed the Pharoah, which in those days was something done by the superior personality to the lesser one.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined." Patrick Henry
I was aware of that as I checked the link to the verses you posted. We all have "preferences", and I prefer NOT to use a version which has things like scarecrows and cucumber patches which apparently were NOT in the original manuscripts... That this version was put out by modern evangelicals (who for the most part are nothing but lying Israel-firsters - Hagee comes to mind here) only makes the matter worse (to me)... Now if that's the version you want to use, that's your choice; and you certainly have a right to. However MOST of the posters of "religion" on 4 seem to use the KJV Personally, I don't have any problem understanding the English used in the KJV.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
No. The misletoe has a meaning to northern Europeans not to the southern Euorpeans. Ivy is not misletoe.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Then learn Greek like I did. How about not using whatever kind of translated version out of context like using lines meant to be against the carving of gilded idols and try to use that to show that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Like I wrote at #18. Though I celebrate/observe Christmas I don't get too excited about this new found American dilemma about Christmas observances because I know Christmas was once banned by some of the pre Revolution colonies and it was not observed by the Federal govt until 1870. Another reason I don't pay any attention to this war on Christmas is because Protestants in America tend to be irrational nuts. Protestants go from having problems with Christmas observances (calling them Papist and pagan at times) to now demanding that Christmas get its proper due. Just 10+ years ago or so I remember Protestants were waging a campaign against secular Christmas - wanting to put Jesus back into Christmas and to remove Christmas trees and Santa Clause and other secular trappings. Now the activists want all that and claim secularists are removing said symbols. That is my point.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Hellooooooooo.....the rabbi got a bad rap. Even Bill O'Reilly thinks so
Lookie, lookie. The rabbi does a talk radio show!
no wonder one little ol' rabbi had such pull ?!?
Congratulations on climbing that mountain. However, whether you read your scriptures in Jacobean or Corinthian, you'll get from them exactly what you want. That goes for the Koran and other like texts. Absent any kind of militant and vigilant authority you'll never get everyone to agree on what a particular chapter and verse means. Our faiths exist for many reasons not the least of which is that it halps us grapple with the problem of evil in the world. I fully appreciate the service that religion does for us in this regard. But from my perspective I see that religion in general operates as the servant of that evil quite as much as it acts as its adversary. We'd all do well to walk in the shoes of the Carpenter. However, I see little likelihood of that as a large scale social movement. We're far too busy tearing our neighbors a new one over the right to erect of forbid certain public symbols.
Give 'til it hurts. Gun Owners of America
Yup, I agree. But when someone takes a passage way out of context like was done I will call them on it.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
No doubt he won't take any phone calls that express how the majority of the people feel about having a happy festive decoration removed, that originated in the folklore of europe, that is not a symbol of Christmas or anything religious like a Nativity scene or a giant menorah.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Take a close look at that little sign tacked on the wall, in the upper right. The word 'christian' is there. I can't make out the rest.
Christmas trees are going back up at Sea-Tac airport The holiday trees that went away in the middle of the night are back. Tonight, Port of Seattle staff began putting up the trees they had taken down Friday night after a local rabbi requested that a Hanukkah menorah also be displayed. Port officials said the rabbi's lawyer had threatened to imminently file a lawsuit, leaving them with insufficient time to consider all the issues. A nationwide furor erupted over the weekend as news of the trees' removal spread, with a flood of calls to Port officials and harshly worded e-mails to Jewish organizations. Today, Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky said he would not file a lawsuit and the Port, in response, said it would put the trees back up. "This has been an unfortunate situation for all of us in Seattle," Port of Seattle Commission President Pat Davis said in a statement. "The rabbi never asked us to remove the trees; it was the Port's decision based on what we knew at the time. We very much appreciate the rabbi's willingness to work with us as we move forward." A menorah will not be displayed this year. Port spokesman Bob Parker said "we look forward to sitting down after the first of the year with not only Rabbi Bogomilsky but others as well, and finding ways to make sure there's an appropriate winter holiday representation for all faiths. We want to find out a way to celebrate the winter holidays that is sensitive to all faiths." Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're thrilled the trees are going back up." But he said he was disappointed that Port officials chose not to put up the menorah as well, pointing out there are still several days until the start of Hannukah. "I still hope that they'll consider putting the menorah up this year. But ultimately it's their decision." He also said he hopes the Port will apologize for mischaracterizations that led people to believe he was against having the trees displayed. "At the end of the day it's not about trees, but adding light to the holiday, not diminishing any light." advertising At the airport tonight, Matt Bachleda of Snohomish was playing cards while waiting for his daughter to arrive from Paris. He was surprised to see Port staff putting a tree back up in the baggage claim area. "It looks like Christmas is back," he said. The reaction to the trees' removal had been swift and vociferous. News outlets nationwide picked up the story. "There's been such an outcry from the public — from people of all faiths — who believe that the trees should be reinstalled," Davis said. "I'm very thankful that we can return the trees and get back to running our airport during this very busy holiday season." Port Commissioner John Creighton said he had been swamped with e-mails, 99.9 percent of which supported putting the trees put back up. "I'm overjoyed as to the resolution," Creighton said. "I'm very happy we were able to reach an agreement that was acceptable to the rabbi and to us." Creighton said he personally would've preferred the airport also put up a menorah this year. But "there's a fair amount of sensitvity at the airport. Whatever we do, we do after putting some thought into it." The situation began rather quietly back in late October or early November when Mitchell Stein, a construction consultant for the Port, contacted a Port staffer saying he'd like to put up a large menorah near the Christmas tree at the international arrival hall. Stein, who is Jewish and is friends with Bogomilsky, said he thought it would be a "great opportunity for the Port to show their joy and commitment to diversity." Over the next several weeks, though, he said, he was referred to several different people on staff, who told him different things about whether a menorah would be allowed. Stein said Harvey Grad, the rabbi's attorney, contacted the Port last week and sent officials there a legal brief as a way of spurring action, given that Hanukkah was coming up, and to let the Port know the legal precedents involved in the issue. It was not intended to be threatening, Stein said. When Port commissioners "told us just before Shabbat that they were taking down all the Christmas trees, we were totally aghast." But some Port commissioners said they first heard about a threatened lawsuit Thursday. "From what we were made to understand, if we didn't accede to the group's demands," they would file a lawsuit by the next day, Creighton said. "At the time, it seemed to be a reasonable solution to remove the Christmas trees." Not only the Port, but local Jewish organizations, felt the consequences of that decision. Robert Jacobs, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League, said about 14 organizations or rabbis had reported receiving hate e-mail. On Monday, his organization was advising local Jewish institutions that have received significant numbers of hate e-mails to consider having security during Hannukah and other holiday season events. This is not the first public clash over the traditional symbols of Christmas. For years, judges — including those of the U.S. Supreme Court — have been sorting out disputes over how nativity scenes and Christmas trees can be displayed in the lobbies of public buildings, in downtown plazas and in parks. The furor has been building for years. Last month, the Alliance Defense Fund, a religion-based legal aid group in Arizona, announced it had lined up an army of attorneys who were prepared to defend the tradition of Christmas in schools and on public property. "Frankly, it's ridiculous that Americans have to think twice about whether it's okay to say 'Merry Christmas,'" the group's president Alan Sears said. Federal law prohibits government entities from endorsing any religious symbols, proselytizing for religion or preferring any one religion over another, said John Strait, an associate professor of law at Seattle University. He said the Christmas holiday has become so secular that many symbols associated with it, such as the Christmas tree, have simply become symbols of the holiday. But legal debates rage over just how religious some symbols, such as the nativity scene, actually are. Strait said the menorah has achieved about the same religious status as a nativity scene. Stewart Jay, a law professor at the University of Washington, admits that the rules aren't always so clear. A holiday display, he said, is allowed as long as it mixes several holiday symbols and traditions. The Port of Seattle, Strait and Jay agree, could have allowed the menorah along with its Christmas tree in such a way that it would not have been an endorsement of religion. "And that would have been the end of it," Strait said. In fact, the Christmas trees on their own might have been problematic, Jay said. Adding a menorahmight have given the Port some legal cover. Across Washington, holiday displays and celebrations reflect the diversity of ways public and private bodies have found to recognize the holidays. Each year — for many years — Seattle City Hall has featured a Christmas tree, menorah and Kwanzaa display, the mayor's spokeswoman, Marianne Bichsel said. "We want to make sure that however people choose to celebrate this time of year, that it is honored," she said. In many school districts across the state, including Seattle and Bellevue, any holiday program or decorations must be tied to curriculum, officials there said. The city of Redmond celebrates the season with displays of evergreen branches with white lights, poinsettias and wreathes inside City Hall. Outside, an evergreen tree, part of the city's landscaping, is decorated with multi-colored lights. King County opts for "giving trees" in the lobby of the court house and the county administrative building. The trees include the names and gift wishes of people in need during the holiday, spokeswoman Carolyn Dunkin said. Last year, a Catholic lawmaker from Spokane and his supporters stirred up a hornets' nest when they sang Christmas carols in front of the giant holiday tree that dominates the Capitol rotunda in Olympia. Rep. John Ahern, a Republican, said the Washington-grown fir is a holiday tree, not a Christmas tree. Next week, following a lighting ceremony, a menorah will accompany that tree in the rotunda, said Steve Valandra spokesman for department of general administration, which oversees the capitol grounds. Staff writer Jennifer Sullivan contributed to this report. Janet Tu: 206-464-7727 or jtu@seattletimes.com; Lornet Turnbull: 206-464-2420 or lturnbull@seattletimes.com
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Talmud?
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Listening to the Fox radio station coming in this morning. They are spinning like a top. They had a series of rabbis on explaining how the Menorah was not really a religious symbol, just an icon for the season like a Christmas Tree. They are blaming "secular humanists" for the removal of the trees without explaining precisely why they are at fault or how they are even involved. I suppose we are supposed to think they hyptnotized the rabbi and forced him to threaten a lawsuit. The rubes are lapping it up with a spoon.
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http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=41282&Disp=86#C86 The trees are back, click link to post #86. Port officials said the rabbi's lawyer had threatened to imminently file a lawsuit, leaving them with insufficient time to consider all the issues.
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Here near where I is, a coastal town, originally created as a refuge from the Puritanical jihadis of Salem, Massaschusetts, a few days after the New Year, Christmas trees are gathered near the beach and set on fire. A nice, big bonfire, rather paganistic, and the kids love it!
Now there is a holiday tradition that I could get into!!
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
ok, lets talk about "out of context". Whether Jere 10 is talking about christmas trees or the predecessor thereof, The Man in Charge told us not to cut a tree out of the forest and adorn it with silver and gold. Well, that is enough for me. Not for any reason nor any season, in the name of any God or religion will I cut a tree and decorate it. Once again, I do not try to "interpret" scripture, I read and follow it, but do not try to make it into something else.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
It is a thrilling spectacle. Especially if there's a good moon floating nearby, some of the local goth-wiccan teenagers even do a circle dance around it. Usually too cold for any nudity or toplessness, even if the moms and cops weren't around. Drat.
Stop right there. The passage is about use of carved gilded idols. Not about trees decorated for some proto-Christmas ceremony. Any attempt to say otherwise is an affront to truth - historic and theological.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The Puritans of Plymouth actually attacked other settlements in the early years they considered "ungodly". Weirdly- Salem was created by a group that wanted to get away from Plymouth's religious oppression.
George Gordon bump
Good point. I DO wish I knew Greek, along with Hebrew, and I'm sure I could add in quite a few more languages I wish I knew..... I cede. You may be right about the "christmas tree" thing... BUT, show me where in Scripture "christmas" is proclaimed a holiday. (Well, I haven't read the Holman Christian Standard Bible, it MIGHT be in there - mixed in somewhere in the cucumber patch - but if it is it'll be guarded by a scarecrow) THAT is my point. Christmas to me has no meaning - it is nothing. I don't celebrate it; and in fact it is only another winter day. I will work on christmas - no problem... BUT don't ask me to work on the Sabbath.... So if you want to celebrate a HOLY DAY which was made "holy" by man instead of the Creator don't let me get in your way... Have fun and enjoy the "season". Pagan (even if they're only just the villagers) traditions are simply that - and have no validity whatsoever with me. I'll just leave this thread with this verse (from the KJV, I can't say what the evangelicals and HCSB have it translated as) and since it's from NEW TESTAMENT, and PAUL to boot!!!!,all the "christians" can take heart: Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Precisely. If I am wrong about 'Christmas', it doesn't matter. I am not disobeying the King of Kings by NOT observing 'Christmas', and I'm saving a lot time and money, to boot. :-)
The Church proclaimed it a holiday. The same Church that created the scripture and that predates the writing of the New Testament. The holiday it proclaimed does not resemble what it has become in the USA/Protestant countries. But beyond us trying to convert each other my point is just to be accurate to history. I objected to the passages above being used as proof that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible. That is all.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That is not what Christ said. "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Mat 22:21
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Then buy an artificial tree. Problem solved.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Glad you were there to set us straight on it!!!! NO, it ISN'T what the Messiah said.... READ the passage!!! It was spoken by PETER. But the Messiah DID say in Matthew 7:6 (According to Holman's) Don't give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before pigs, or they will trample them with their feet, turn, and tear you to pieces. So let me get this straight. You are tearing a few of us to pieces over a christmas tree opinion when NOWHERE in Scripture can you find that christmas is a HOLY DAY as mandated by the Creator?????? You readily admit it's a creation of MAN!!! YOU PIG!!!!!
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Note to self: LUKE wrote Acts, not Paul.... Kinda sucks when accuracy counts and I make a fuck up like this....
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
And it was the first time in history.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
OK.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
OK, unless I am as ignorant as you must think that I am, I do believe that you are either dodging the question that innieway was asking, or you simply cannot comprehend it. He was asking if you admitted that the so called "Holiday" of christmas was a creation of man, and somehow now you are talking about man creating the church. Well duh, of course man created religion. God simply founded laws for us to abide by and we have twisted that all to hell (sounds like some threads I have read lately). Second, I have no idea what god is spoken of and honoured in the Holman Bible, but the God that I fear and hold dear is the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. THIS GOD NEVER MADE HIMSELF A MAN!!! He sent us a son, but the christ was never, is never and will never be a GOD All of the Messiah's teachings were simple, that man had already gone astray, and reminded us over and over to follow his father. He NEVER stated look at me, I am God but continually pointed us towards his father, as he was sent to do. Of course I can only speak for the Bibles I have read, maybe it is different in your scarecrow book that bears the title of Bible.
"Don't Steal, the government hates competition."
Yes, it is a creation of man. That is not a problem since that is part of Church tradition - to honor saints - to set aside a day to celebrate and honor them. Protestants who are later day Christians who do not come from the original seed of Christ may have a problem with it. It is an absurd question/premise as well. I know Protestant nuts think Jesus wrote the New Testament and the Bible but he did not. Men wrote those Gospels. That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Most every sect on earth seeing the others as hertics, the whole sad circle of tribalism and pomposity. All claiming they are for peace, yet it seems when given half a chance mass murder is the main service to be held in their church. Organized religion and their followers have alot to be weighed in the balance. A few are humble - many are full of hubris. How is one to respond to men like Robertson (if he is the one, to me these guys are all one sicko entity) who asked for the assaination of Chavez, if we are Christians? Or the the character who claimed homos were responsible for 9-11. Or this rapture nonsense. And the killing video game based on it. Islam is full of sickos, and from what I can see, the US Christian movement is as well. Note in Denver today we had yet another evangelical bigshot having to admit he had homo liasons. Just a rant.
That made me laugh at the absurdity of it all. Me too. Seems Destro is saying the Catholics have it right, and everyone else is going to hell... Of course, that's the common thinking among ALL organized religions isn't it? I mean the Lutherans know they're right, and the rest just "went astray" somewhere; the Methodists know they have the "upper hand" in getting into Heaven; the Baptists know they're right and "pity all the ones that aren't Baptist we won't be seeing them in Heaven"; the Catholics KNOW they're right - after all it was JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF that started the Catholic church, and ALL other Christian religions are merely offshoots of Catholocism and therefore CAN'T be right about anything (but at least the others get to sit it out in Purgatory or Limbo or somewhere for a while to think about it and realize the folly of their ways and then MIGHT get to go to Heaven); the Muslims are positive theirs is the way, and as a super bonus they get 70 virgins when they get to Heaven; the Mormons have already been to Heaven and now all they're doing is living a life on earth to prove themselves worthy to get back to Heaven; and the Wiccans think we're ALL NUTS...... I'd be willing to bet that the followers of Mithraism were just as adamant about the Holy Trinity they believed in as are today's Christians, as were the Babylonians about theirs, and the Egyptians about theirs..... I wonder if the followers of any of the other religions actually PRACTICE what is in the "book" they CLAIM to follow, or if they do like Christians and just practice what is convenient for them and ignore the rest by way of some rationalization that "it doesn't mean that"????? I mean c'mon as I pointed out and was corrected by Destro PHARMAKIA is the Greek word for drugs - whereby I have been saying witchcraft is the translation from the Greek PHARMAKIA... I was wrong - so what Scripture is REALLY saying instead of avoiding WITCHCRAFT to avoid drugs - which by extension would mean avoiding DOCTORS... Like I said, I can't speak Greek, BUT call it witchcraft call it drugs call it whatever the hell you want to I FOLLOW SCRIPTURE and AVOID DOCTORS AT ALL COST!!!!! Been many many years since I've been to one. I guess I'm ignorant, but at least I think I have enough common sense to be able to tell what Scripture is saying, and can follow it.... We all know Christians don't have a problem with going to the doctor to get "drugs" - even if they are told NOT to in Scripture....
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestGreeks also held the ivy to have some sacred significance
#72. To: tom007 (#68)
Note that the Romans wore oak garlands on their heads as a symbol of victory,(the strength of the oak) the Greeks used Olive garlands as a symbol of peace (Olive was a domestic oil for cleaning).
#73. To: Destro (#65)
My point is its none of anyones business either way.
#74. To: tom007 (#69)
The Israelite hero Moses, who in the Bible account led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, was based on Rameses, .... Moses’ successor, Joshua, was Rameses’ successor Seti I. It is also argued that Hebrew was the lingua franca of the many different peoples at Akhet-Aten, borrowing from many sources including Egyptian and Ethiopian. The Exodus mystery has captured the attention of Western thinkers for centuries. Clemens of Alexandria in 200 AD was one of the first to mention a stunning similarity between the Egyptian symbols and those used by the ancient Hebrews
#75. To: Destro (#55)
The above version is based on the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB).
#76. To: tom007 (#71)
That would be Misletoe, I think
#77. To: innieway (#75)
and I prefer NOT to use a version
#78. To: ladybug (#73)
(Edited)
Out of curiosity, I would truly LIKE to know what your point is.
#79. To: The rabbi got a bad rap. Just ask him (#77)
(Edited)
#80. To: All (#79)
(Edited)
http://www.chaiseattle.com/templates/articlecco.html?AID=110330
#81. To: Jethro Tull (#80)
#82. To: Destro (#77)
Then learn Greek like I did.
#83. To: randge (#82)
#84. To: Jethro Tull (#80)
Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, Host
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#85. To: robin (#84)
#86. To: Jethro Tull, ALL (#79)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#87. To: Jethro Tull (#85)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#88. To: robin (#0)
(Edited)
#89. To: ... (#88)
(Edited)
---Henry Kissinger, New York Times, October 28, 1973
#90. To: Ferret Mike, Tom007, Destro, Burkeman1 (#52)
#91. To: swarthyguy (#90)
Christmas trees are gathered near the beach and set on fire. A nice, big bonfire,
#92. To: Destro, who knows what evil (#83)
But when someone takes a passage way out of context like was done I will call them on it.
#93. To: ladybug (#91)
#94. To: ladybug, who knows what evil (#92)
Whether Jere 10 is talking about christmas trees or the predecessor thereof
#95. To: swarthyguy (#90)
#96. To: ladybug (#54)
Maybe I am a little hard core on the subject or just a stick-in-the-mud, but I tend to look at the Bible as a Law Book more than a religious tool.
-Thomas Paine
#97. To: Destro, Who Knows What Evil, Randge, Tom007, Lodwick (#77)
Then learn Greek like I did. How about not using whatever kind of translated version out of context like using lines meant to be against the carving of gilded idols and try to use that to show that Christmas trees are banned by the Bible.
#98. To: innieway (#97)
We ought to obey God rather than men.
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#99. To: innieway (#97)
You may be right about the "christmas tree" thing... BUT, show me where in Scripture "christmas" is proclaimed a holiday.
#100. To: who knows what evil, innieway (#98)
We ought to obey God rather than men.
#101. To: ladybug, swarthyguy (#92)
The Man in Charge told us not to cut a tree out of the forest and adorn it with silver and gold. Well, that is enough for me.
#102. To: Destro (#100)
That is not what Christ said.
#103. To: All (#97)
(Edited)
and PAUL to boot!!!!
#104. To: innieway (#102)
You readily admit it's a creation of MAN
#105. To: Destro (#104)
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man.
#106. To: innieway (#105)
And it was the first time in history.
#107. To: Destro (#104)
The church is of men founded by God who made himself a man
#108. To: ladybug (#107)
He was asking if you admitted that the so called "Holiday" of christmas was a creation of man
#109. To: Destro, ladybug (#108)
That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
#110. To: tom007, Destro (#109)
That you deny the Trinity is no surprise since Protestants embrace many heresies.
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