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Title: SAPF Update: Judge issues Stay in Enforcement of Injunction
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Published: Dec 19, 2006
Author: SAPF
Post Date: 2006-12-19 15:21:21 by Neil McIver
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Views: 1809
Comments: 101
Judge Nickerson issued a stay against his own injunction order today. SAPF can disregard the order pending appeal. I'll write up a report more fully tonight.
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#24. To: BTP Holdings (#23)
THAT'S the point!!! But they won't "unvolunteer" because they WANT the privileges they get from volunteering. They WANT to gamble in the stock market, and they want to work for General Motors, and they WANT to have Medicare and that monthly check to count on in their retirement years. No, there is NOT a smidgen of hope there. By his own admission he "researches companies he might want to invest in". He wants to find a way to participate in the commercial system, to make investments hoping for capital gains - AND at the same time find a way to NOT have to participate in the tax scheme... Problem is IT DON'T WORK THAT WAY... As long as he insists on keeping that SS#, bank account, stock market account, various investments in businesses, ANY type of license, etc - he just needs to quit worrying about keeping up with any "tax protester court arguments" looking for a good one that he can use because they don't exist. Noone222 pointed out to him in another thread that his tagline reads: "The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news"; and yet he doesn't believe or practice that... If he did he might pay attention to the words of the Messiah in Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so Either he doesn't actually believe his own tagline, or he isn't smart enough to figure out that in the SS system, the government is called the benefactor, and he is the beneficiary - or both. People like that allow FEAR to make their decisions, and are of no use to true patriots. If the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Framers of the Constitution had allowed fear to control them instead of their conscience - this once-great nation would have never achieved what it did. And unless a hell of a lot more people find that same courage our Founding Fathers had, all their efforts were in vain... I believe it was you that used the word traitor to describe him... You're right. Traitor to his country, AND traitor to GOD.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
This oft repeated canard that paying taxes and abiding by tax laws is somehow unbiblical or lacking faith needs to be addressed (FYI *Bereans* for the scripture cites). So, what does the Bible actually say in comparison with the claims of noone222 and innieway? Noone222 pointed out to him in another thread that his tagline reads: "The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news"; and yet he doesn't believe or practice that... If he did he might pay attention to the words of the Messiah in Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/ readart.cgi?ArtNum=40848&Disp=25#C25 I noticed your tagline and thought you should be more aware of the number one tax protester to ever walk the earth ! (Of course they crucified him ... and they're still at it 2000 years later. What did Jesus tell Peter at the house after they had passed through the gate at Capernum. [You'll recall he had Peter go get a coin out of a fishes mouth to pay the "tribute" collector, so as not to piss him off. But when Peter and Jesus arrived at the house, Jesus prevented Peter at the door, and asked him "Peter, from whom do the kings of nations collect tribute, the "children" or the "STRANGER" ... to which Peter replied, ahh yes Lord the stranger.] Taxes are in fact a penalty applied to those receiving a government "PRIVILEGE" , and the reason for Jesus admonition to Peter was to remind him that the birthright of the children wasn't taxable while the privilege of citizenship to the stranger subjected them to taxation. Check out Luke 22:25 where Jesus states that you shouldn't be obligated to a benefactor ... exactly what SS does to you ... it makes the govt. your benefactor ... so who you gonna believe, Jesus or Uncle Sambo ??? http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/ readart.cgi?ArtNum=40848&Disp=26#C26 I'm mystified when someone has a tagline that implies faith in Christ's truth but when it comes down to the nut cuttin that person shit cans Christ and resorts to lawyers and weasel worded statutory fraud. Hypocrisy ! http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/ readart.cgi?ArtNum=40848&Disp=29#C29 When Jesus said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" ... Most people thought "EVERYTHING" belonged to him, and Jesus was disputing that notion, much like today, when the government would have us believe that every dollar and every transaction is to be taxed. So, here is Luke 22:25-27, full passages in context: Luk 22:24-27 And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. (25) And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called 'Benefactors.'G2110 (26) "But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. (27) "For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves. Strong's G2110: The disciples were frequently engaged in petty arguments over which of them was greatest in heaven: This last time (Luk 22) Jesus drew a contrast between His kingdom and that of Gentiles, specifically those Ptolemaic kings who were known as "Euergetes" or 'Benefactor'. Note above that 'Benefactor' is translated from the Greek "euergetes" (Strongs G2110) in Luke 22:25.: ... king of Egypt, son of Ptolemy II ... succeeded Ptolemy II ... as the Benefactor Gods ... usually known as Euergetes ("Beneficient"). He is commonly distinguished today as Euergetes II or as Physcon. The epithet Euergetes ("Benefactor"), which he shared with and probably modelled on Ptolemy III Jesus contrasts the Gentile "Benefactors" (i.e., Ptolemaic rulers) who were greatest and held authority over others who served them, with the reverse concept in Christ's kingdom that the greatest are those who serve and are under authority, and Jesus cites himself as serving though (implicitly) having all authority: This is the same "lesson" He taught in the other disputes about whom would be greatest: Jesus was not teaching that earthly Christians (His disciples) were not obligated to "Benefactors". Rather, Jesus was teaching that those who would be greatest in His kingdom were least on earth and served under authority. Regarding paying the "tribute", here is Mat 17:27 complete and in context: Mat 17:24-27 When they came to Capernaum, those who collected the two- drachma tax came to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two- drachma tax?" (25) He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?" (26) When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt. (27) "However, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me." Note carefully there are two different taxes being discussed: Jesus' point to Peter is that because they are not strangers to the temple but are the sons of God, they hence are exempt from the temple tax as asked, but regardless they do pay it so as to not offend. But it is this ecclesiastical temple tax which Jesus voluntarily pays. Jesus does *not* teach in any manner that a civil tax is likewise voluntary or that Christians ought not to pay civil taxes. And the oft misconstrued "render to Caesar" teaching: Mat 22:17-21 "Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?" (18) But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? (19) "Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. (20) And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" (21) They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Jesus specifically distinguishes between that which is Caesar's and that which is God's. Jesus said to pay both Caesar's tax (in Roman coins) and tithes and offerings (in temple coins). No where does the Bible or historical record imply that "Most people thought "EVERYTHING" belonged to [Caesar]", that is a false premise, and no where does Jesus dispute paying taxes to Rome. Further, if today "every dollar and every transaction is to be taxed", there'd be no "loop holes", no "non- profits", no deductions, exemptions, gradations, and a vastly smaller and simpler tax code. In fact, much (but not all) of the complexity and unfairness of the existing tax code is due to the myriad exemptions from taxation. And what does the Bible actually teach about Christians being subject to civil authority? Exo 22:28 "You shall not curse God, nor curse a ruler of your people. Ecc 8:2-5 I say, "Keep the command of the king because of the oath before God. (3) "Do not be in a hurry to leave him. Do not join in an evil matter, for he will do whatever he pleases." (4) Since the word of the king is authoritative, who will say to him, "What are you doing?" (5) He who keeps a royal command experiences no trouble, for a wise heart knows the proper time and procedure. Mat 5:25 "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Luk 7:8-9 "For I also am a man placed under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it." (9) Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, "I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith." Note, the point here is Jesus did not rebuke the soldier for being under and having Roman military authority, rather Jesus commended him for acknowledging and having faith in (and not requiring proof of) Jesus' authority, unlike the Jews to whom Jesus was spreading His message. i.e. a Roman authoritarian had more understanding of Jesus authority than did Jesus' country men. Rom 13:1-2 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. (2) Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 1Ti 2:1-2 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, (2) for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. Tit 3:1-2 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, (2) to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. 1Pe 2:13-14 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, (14) or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 1Pe 2:18-19 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. (19) For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. Jesus, Paul and Peter all make it plainly clear, repeatedly, that the followers of Jesus, Christians, are to voluntarily be subject under the civil authorities and to disobey those authorities is to disobey God. Only when there is a genuine conflict between God's law and civil law, are Christians are to uphold God's law even when the consequences are dire: Ecc 10:4,20 (4) If the ruler's temper rises against you, do not abandon your position, because composure allays great offenses. (20) Furthermore, in your bedchamber do not curse a king, and in your sleeping rooms do not curse a rich man, for a bird of the heavens will carry the sound and the winged creature will make the matter known. Act 5:28-29 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." (29) But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. Paul suffered numerous beatings. Stephen allowed himself to be stoned. When civil authority is unjust (such as under many of the Old Testament kings, Gentile kings, etc.) the Christian is to willingly bear the unjust treatment and trust in God for deliverance and leave all vengeance up to God, as did Daniel in the lion's den, and Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego who were cast into the fiery furnace, David who was pursued by Saul, Job, Joseph, etc. But that does not mean that Christians can not lawfully, peacefully work for better laws or rely upon the law, as did Paul when he declared his Roman citizenship (Act 22:25) to seek due process and a hearing from Caesar (Acts 25). By his own admission he "researches companies he might want to invest in". He wants to find a way to participate in the commercial system, to make investments hoping for capital gains - AND at the same time find a way to NOT have to participate in the tax scheme... Indeed, the Bible even instructs Christians to be wise stewards of whatever God has entrusted to us: Mat 10:16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. We are to know what the worldly and schemers know without being worldly and scheming in return. Mat 25:14-30 "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. (15) "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. (16) "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. (17) "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. (18) "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. (19) "Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. (20) "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.' (21) "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' (22) "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.' (23) "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' (24) "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. (25) 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.' (26) "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. (27) 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. (28) 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.' (29) "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. (30) "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The parable of the talents is not specifically about investment per se, but is about generic stewardship of whatever has been entrusted to us. Each of us have giftings and responsibilities in commensurate measure. A person given the gifting to steward two talents could not handle the responsibility of stewarding five talents, but they can learn and be faithful with the two. A person who is irresponsible and fails to steward what has been entrusted (even one talent) is faithless. Some of us are entrusted with wealth and expected to faithfully steward it and apply it to kingdom purposes. Some are entrusted with administration skills, teaching skills, etc. Whatever skills/gifts we have been given are to be stewarded to their fullest in accordance with God's kingdom purposes. That includes managing wealth and using it as tithes and offerings to fund 'kingdom projects', like building churches, giving bibles, sending missionaries, feeding the poor and homeless, funding hospitals, etc. It can also include managing the assets and budgets of Christian institutions like churches, foundations, colleges, broadcasters, etc. But to manage and distribute (steward) wealth, one must of necessity understand the tax laws at a minimum, how to safeguard assets while not being spent, and how to operate lawfully. Luk 16:8-13 "And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light. (9) "And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings. (10) "He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much. (11) "Therefore if you have not been faithful in the use of unrighteous wealth, who will entrust the true riches to you? (12) "And if you have not been faithful in the use of that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own? (13) "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." Jesus is not praising unrighteous manager for being unrighteous, but is citing his shrewdness as an example of that manager's "thinking outside the box" to form useful relationships. Jesus advocates that we Christians ought to likewise learn to "think outside the box" to use the wealth of the unrighteous to bring people to the Lord so that they may be a treasure laid up in heaven and will welcome us when we meet them in eternity. The lesson is to be sharp-witted Christian managers (who are just as savvy if not more so than their unrighteous counterparts) who lawfully redirect wealth into righteous kingdom purposes, e.g., trading/investing and then tithing/offering the profit to a Christian church to be used in mission work or church plants, or to quietly demonstrate and set a Christian example for the world to observe of honest lawful investing (i.e. walk the walk). But only to the extent that "talents" (gifts and responsibilities) have been entrusted from God, i.e. a "calling". The Christian serves God and wealth is a tool that serves the Christian, no different than any other tool employed to achieve God's purposes. The Bible does not teach that paying taxes is wrong, or taxation authority is to be disobeyed, or that investing is wrong. Only by ignoring what the text of the Bible plainly and repeatedly says can one argue otherwise. Problem is IT DON'T WORK THAT WAY... As long as he insists on keeping that SS#, bank account, stock market account, various investments in businesses, ANY type of license, etc - he just needs to quit worrying about keeping up with any "tax protester court arguments" looking for a good one that he can use because they don't exist. What I insist on regarding taxes is being lawful, accurate, and honest. No more, no less. It behooves any Christian who wants to be "as wise as serpents", faithful in the use of whatever has been entrusted to them, obedient under every human institution and governing authority, and avoid creating opponents at law, to investigate and know the facts of these matters whether promulgated by the IRS, accountants, lawyers, tax protesters, tax shelters, banks, brokers, companies, legislatures and courts, to evaluate and integrate their varying interpretations and ultimately know the truth of the matter as best it can be ascertained. There may not be any good tax protester arguments, but one wouldn't know that until having looked at the published arguments and any court rulings. Subsequently, one can learn how the courts and government cope with differing arguments; studying how favorable rulings were argued through the court system and how frivolous arguments are dispatched. Learning what to do and what not to do. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Worse, those who repeat the same failed arguments yet always expect different results, defy rationality and demonstrate a troubling dysfunction (see Irwin Schiff's transcript). But the incessant flawed cherry-picking and proof-texting is why tax protesters persistently fail to persuade courts or the citizenry at large. You ignore history, context, facts, and plain meanings that everyone else understands. You position yourselves for defeat because of your insistence to impute into a text what you want it to mean instead of reading out of a text what it actually says, whether that text is in the Constitution, the law, or the Bible. And when I point that out, you label me; for proposing a lawful constitutional convention as provided by the framers, a "traitor"; for knowing and citing the law in opposition to your vapid legal scholarship, a "shill" and "pettifogger"; and "boot- licking, scum guzzling, govt. toadie" who ought to be hung by a rope , and taunts like "You cling to fraud like bubble gum to a shoe !" Your responses are long on handwaving, short on fact, but mainly just personal insults. Such juvenile antics would be laughable if the subject weren't so serious. And yet you style yourselves 'Christian patriots' who advocate an "insurance-like" scheme which is legally indefensible and fiscally and actuarially unsound, and when that fails, you expect to further play Russian Roulette with the courts and treat the inevitable consequent IRS summons as an act of war to be met with armed resistance. You post rant after rant raging against the machine without once posting any proof of the legal basis that underlies your tax arguments you all claim to have researched so thoroughly (except for one SSA form), but when pressed for the factual details that underly your otherwise unsubstantiated legal theories, we're told: Good grief, no one in their right mind would participate in your self-destructive tantrums and get caught-up in your crossfire. You blame the media, the courts, the sheeple, employers, bankers, Jews, Christians, ad nauseum; you blame everyone except yourselves for stepping alone in front of the train that repeatedly runs you down. Take a long hard look at yourselves. You ought to be embarrassed.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Well, based on your statements here alone, he either didn't believe in the legality of your non-withholding, or he in fact withheld improperly. Either way, if your non-withholding theory is legal and correct (as you repeatedly claim) the law is on your side right? Why not have the IRS refund what should never have been withheld? After all, you were bold and confident earlier: They're just clowns that you can back down, right? They have no legal basis to keep your $5,000 right? Your employer has no legal basis to keep for himself (or withhold) your $5,000, right? They'll probably write you a check and then just plain disappear again. 'Course depositing it without a bank account could be tricky, but maybe you could endorse it over to a check-cashing outlet for a factor. I do have a rough idea of what you are dealing with 'there', and so you have the last word, unless you want me to debate it (I'm willing to take this as far as you want).
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Luk 22:(25) And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called 'Benefactors. [King James Version] Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [Your submission of Biblical Text] (26) "But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. [King James Version] Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. I'm sure you can see the difference in these translations. I think the translation you have used is more casual and at Luke 22:26 appears to simply recognize an existing situation (but it is not this way with you) rather than observing an "order" [But ye shall not be so;] I'll have to go back to your original post to continue:
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
Mat 17:24-27 When they came to Capernaum, those who collected the two- drachma tax came to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two- drachma tax?" (25) He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?" (26) When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt. I think there's something lost in your translation: Here's the King James: Mat 17:24 ¶ And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute [money] came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? Mat 17:25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Mat 17:26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. I'm sorry, but the translation you're using appears to have been written by a tax collector when using terms like 2 drachma tax, Poll Tax and "exempt". I believe that the children being free is more relevant than a tax exemption. I also think some emphasis is lost when your translation speaks of their sons rather than stating "from their own children". (But that's just my opinion). I want to address some more of your post but I'll have to continue after posting this:
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
I use the NASB. It is a more literal translation than the KJV. No, Jesus is not giving or observing an order or command. He is contrasting the Ptolemaic "benefactors" who are deemed greatest because they are being served, with greatest in Christ's kingdom being deemed those who serve (or are humblest). Jesus' point is that greatness is not measured by authority but instead is measured by humility and servitude in spite of having authority. Your own KJV translation cite notes: "But ye [shall] not [be] so" wherein [shall] and [be] are inserted words endeavoring make the english grammar more sensible. The NASB translation is: "But [it is] not this way with you" wherein [it is] are again inserted words endeavoring make the english grammar more sensible. I apologize for having negelected to italicize or shade inserted words in my cites. So while there are those differences in the translations of those 6-7 words, taking the entire passages in context, Jesus is teaching that *unlike* the Gentiles and their "benefactors" who measure greatness by being served, Jesus measures greatness by serving - standing human tradition and thought on its head, as He often does. None of Jesus' words teach that His followers do not have "obligations" to those in authority. Rather submission to civil authority is what Jesus and the Apostles taught, repeatedly (NASB cites already provided above in post #25).
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Ok then, in the KJV: Mat 17:24-25 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute1323 money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?1323 (25) He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented4399 him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom5056 or tribute?2778 of their own children, or of strangers? Using your own preferred KJV translation: Mat 17:26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free1658. In the context of not paying a tax, the Greek is more properly translated as "exempt" as opposed to being "free" in the non-applicable context of slavery or liberty: As demonstrated above, given you'll always read into a text like a tax protester, it doesn't really matter what translation you use. All exceed your willingness to accept facts.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Most interesting thread - thanks, all.
I had written two very long posts that got wiped out once because I inadvertantly clicked on a link you had posted while trying to copy it, and a second time because I walked away from my computer for a minute and when I returned I was asked to "sign in" ... when I hit "preview". (Oh well.) Maybe it's God's will. I had addressed the name calling, and admitted it wasn't necessary, but note that it hasn't been a one sided love fest. All parties should strive for a less argumentative dialogue ... even though at times it's difficult. You're "IN THE WORLD" and have a "WORLD" friendly attitude. You think it's ok to pay for bombs, rockets, machine guns and tanks that kill little kids, I don't and won't. You think God gives blessings dependent upon how you manage your finances. You're delirious. Your focus has at times been directed towards the stupidity of people that fight the system by using antiquated or rehashed arguments, ultimately going to jail. Yet, while maintaining a tagline that suggests you're a follower of Jesus, you have yet to even mention the heinous acts of killing little kids orchestrated by the "authorities" you claim we should obey and FUND. I recall Jesus saying most emphatically what should be done to those that would hurt "one" of these little ones. I am finding it difficult to be civil towards you because I think you epitomize hypocrisy and man's self-inflated wisdom, which is the foolishness that serves murderers and tyrants. When judgment day rolls around show God Title 26, I'm sure he'll be understanding. When you pay your tithes to Uncle Satan, just attach a note and say ... not to be used for bombs, tanks and guns, please. And search your soul with this scripture: Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And maybe this too: Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his (the man's) name. Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
You might get away with your new wave nonsense if you were speaking to the ignorant CINO (Christian In Name Only) praise the Lord, pathetic, preacherized pagans. But that shit won't fly with me ! Peter and the boys (Apostles) got arrested for preaching and thrown into prison. The were told by the "AUTHORITIES" to cut it out, and quit preaching. Peter told the authorities to shove it, he would have to obey God's Laws, not man's, and would continue preaching. Then the apostles were beaten and released. In the Old Testament the story is the same. Check out Nehemiah 5 ... where Nehemiah drags a mob over to the authorities and demands they refund every bit of tax they had previously collected. Or recall when the Hebrew midwives were ordered to kill the Israelite male babies by the Pharaoah but refused, and were blessed for refusing. Submission to evil is not the Biblical message, is it Starwind ?
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
No doubt because you read my posts about as well as you read tax law or the bible. Agreed. My focus is directed towards people who fight stupidly using stupid arguments that have a track record of getting them ultimately tossed in jail, stupidly. But what provokes me on threads like this is when those same people deride me for not being as willfully stupid as they are. Misery indeed loves company. I never said we should FUND heinous acts, but you already new that. As you just demonstrated again, and I said, the problem is in your reading my posts. No where have I condoned the heinous acts of killing little kids orchestrated by the "authorities" of any country or party. No where have I said I supported them or voted for them. I have no doubt Jesus will deal justly with them for their sin. And what evil they have committed with my lawfully paid taxes is on their head. When given a choice, I don't pay people to bomb children. But you, OTOH, would happily have people join you in meeting IRS summons' with a gunfight, wouldn't you. The mote is always in the other guy's eye isn't it? I'll be able to at least say I didn't vote them and I obeyed the authorities over me as scripture commands. And my taxes are not tithes (though you take every opportunity to continue your taunts), rather my tithes are in fact "first fruits" - 10% and greater of my gross, off-the-top before I pay any taxes.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
... Act 5:28-29 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." (29) But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
I don't want to accuse you of having a reading disorder or writing disorder but ... what's this ? >>>>> are Christians are to uphold God's law even when the consequences are dire ....... hehehehehe !!! Sounds to me that you think God's law plays second fiddle to man's law. I dissent. Would you consider maiming and murdering children somewhat conflicting with the God's Laws or the teachings of Jesus, or not quite dire enough ? People without claiming spirituality make more sense than a wannabe/pretend CINO Christian trying prop up the most evil government on planet earth by implying that God wants it this way. Or better put, that God wishes for his children to participate. You just gotta be shittin me ! You can't serve two masters, I don't care how much you equivocate. The message regarding Babylon, which has now evolved into an international monetary beast, was to "come out of her my children" ... so that you avoid the wrath. Not join up and go kill babies, even by proxy.
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
i agree.
I had posted in a different thread Hale vs Henkel which has never been overturned, and is still in effect today: If you look up entries like "14th Amendment," "U.S. citizen," and "person" in Black's Law Dictionary, and do some further research, you'll find that "person" - which includes a "corporation" - is a synonym for slave. You'll also find that one can have the status of "sovereign American," "state citizen," or "sovereign individual" - all more or less synonymous with the "individual" referred to in Hale v. Henkel. If you read the tax code, you'll find the terrocrats use the word "person" (slave). Nowhere will you find them saying that an "individual" is liable for income taxes. You'll find statutes, regulations, and court rulings saying the "taxpayer" must do this and that, but these don't apply to the "individual." And if you research common law, you'll find that there's been a centuries-old tradition of two classes of people: "freemen" and "slaves." The American Revolution broke the tradition and created a society of free and sovereign people - free individuals. However, since then the terrocrats have been spectacularly successful in gradually reestablishing the master-slave tradition. You can change your status from "slave" to "sovereign individual" - and live your life and conduct your business in accordance with Hale v. Henkel. I also showed that SS is voluntary. IT IS BEING IN THE SS SYSTEM THAT TIES YOU TO THE INCOME TAX SYSTEM... "THE SIGNATURE OF A PERSON IS THE PROOF OF HIS CONSENT THAT BINDS HIM UNDER THE LAW OF CONTRACT". Nexus is defined as a connection, tie, or link between individuals of a group. The signature of each person, given voluntarily, binds the U.S. citizenry together into a lifelong socialized contract with the government. Under the Social Security Act, the citizen is in a state of voluntary servitude. Involuntary servitude is unconstitutional (13th Amendment), but voluntary servitude is constitutional (for every positive action there is a negative reaction). One has the absolute right to enter into a contract and bind himself to specific performance, submitting himself to the law of contracts and to the laws of the contract. Within the U.S., and any place subject to its jurisdiction, no one can force a citizen into a state of involuntary servitude unless for the punishment of crime whereas the party shall have been duly convicted (13th Amendment). No one can force a citizen into a contractual agreement. The judicial, executive, and legislative branches of the government do not have that power. A tax judge will always remind a litigant that there are no constitutional protection (i.e., right of free speech, privacy) in a tax court (when under contractual obligations). But no judge can order a citizen to participate in the Social Security system. The system is 100% voluntary and whoever joins the system also volunteers into paying the income tax. The "law" cannot be invoked when a citizen is not numbered, receives no benefits, and does not enrich himself at the expense of another. Without the law, the court cannot offer a remedy. When a court cannot offer a remedy, the court lacks jurisdiction. The Social Security number is recognized by other nations and is prima facia evidence that: The following are excerpts relating to the Social Security Act. They are from the Social Security Laws, 98th Cong., 2nd Sess., Committee Print through April 1, 1944: In all the above named cases, the evidence before the court was: The terms, "people," or "human being" are not to be found in the Internal Revenue Code and it fails to properly identify who is required to file. It cannot be found because it is not there. Partaking into the Social Security Act merely identifies one as a person "who is receiving benefits and therefore must meet the burden." Under the ancient concept of Lord Mansfield's maxim "that no man shall enrich himself unjustly at the expense of another," in the eyes of the court, that individual ought to pay the income tax. The common law of quasi contract (as if a contract) is now in full force and effect. Like I said, you can study tax protester cases until you're blue in the face, and you won't find ANY good arguments. Well, they may be good - BUT the courts will rule against them BECAUSE the defendants fall under the STATUS (according to the IRS Code) of TAXPAYER because they have a SS#. If they DON'T have the SS#, and DON'T participate in commercial activity (bank accounts etc), and DON'T have licenses (contracts with the state) - then they fall under the legal STATUS (according to the IRS Code) of NON TAXPAYER; and they won't be in the courts to begin with... Beyond what I have cited here (some of it for a second time), the only other proof I have of this being factual and truth is personal knowledge of people that have taken this route. When you haven't filed a tax return, paid in anything to the IRS, nor paid in anything to SS for 23 years without so much as a letter from them (let alone being in court over the matter) - I'd say that's proof enough. I don't remember Noone222, BTP Holdings, nor myself EVER ONCE claiming any tie to Christianity. I can't speak for anyone but myself, BUT I DON'T CALL MYSELF A CHRISTIAN.... Just because I quote and try my best to follow what is said in Scripture doesn't make me a Christian. Funny how Christians seem to think that if you're not part of some "religion" then the only other option is you're atheist. Now in the First Commandment we are told NOT to follow after other gods. Do other gods exist? Well, if they didn't would there have been a need for the first commandment? And who are these "other gods"? I submit that they can be any of numerous things - money, tv, or the State of California. That's right, find somewhere in Scripture where it's illegal to marry... The LEGAL definition of a license is "Permission granted by the state to do something which would otherwise be illegal, a tort, or a trespass". Yet the State of California demands you have a marriage license to get married. AGAIN, what is "illegal, a tort, or a trespass" about marriage???? NOTHING - well, not to the Creator of the Universe anyhow (provided it's not same-sex, nor to a different race). I contend that by getting that marriage license you have forsaken the Creator and made a "god" of the state of California. You don't have to agree with me on that, and frankly I don't care who does or does not agree. YOU ARE FREE TO MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES.... And as for advocating some "insurance-like" scheme - I'M NOT!!!!! I'm advocating getting out of the system... AGAIN, YOUR CHOICE!!! As for the constitutional convention thing, I see it as this mess is so far out of control as to require MORE than a "convention". The only thing that will effect a change at this point is a REVOLUTION... Happened once in this country to throw off living under a vile system of government.... See:>http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=41878&Disp=5#C5 No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
I want to make something clear without it being in response to one of your posts. I don't know you, I can't judge you, and I certainly don't want to just piss someone off that might really be searching for truth. I felt the same way as you about most things we've discussed on this thread at one time. I was wrong too. I repented and try to face eternity with a clear vision of right and wrong here in the finite, so I'll know how to behave myself there in the infinite. Maybe this debate has outlived its usefulness.
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
This is passing the buck, it's your money and you send it to people that bomb kids. End of story ! Although a tough choice, it's yours to make. No where have I condoned the heinous acts of killing little kids orchestrated by the "authorities" of any country or party. No where have I said I supported them or voted for them. You vote with your money. The word worship is a compound word derived from "worth" (value) and "ship" (to transfer) or to transfer value. It's none of my business but if you make Tax Deductible Donations ... you haven't tithed at all, you've simply offset your tax liability. I'll be able to at least say I didn't vote them and I obeyed the authorities over me as scripture commands. And I'll be able to say, I screwed up for awhile Lord, but once I understood the deal I told satan to take a flying fucking leap, no more money for murdering thugs. Who do you think Jesus was talking about when he said "you're all clean on the outside, but inside you're full of dead men's bones" ... he could have said you're full of dead babies bones, but that would have been too harsh wouldn't it ? He was talking to hypocrits. Self approving pretenders that rationalize their donations to continue the never ending murder of God's other children. Love thy neighbor ... buy war bonds !!! Gimme a break ! And finally, But you, OTOH, would happily have people join you in meeting IRS summons' with a gunfight, wouldn't you. Geez, I hadn't ever thought of that ... but since you brought it up maybe we should be democrapic and take a vote ! [This Starwind suggestion was brought you by the friendly people at the Department of Entrapment a subsidiary department of HOMO-LAND SECURITY and the Catholic Church].
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
P.S. I do not think you're as willfully stupid as those that deride you ... I think you are willfully complicit in killing children, as most of us have been. We were never stupid, we were blinded by a false sense of red, white and blue patriotism, misguided by fake preachers that twist scripture to fill their greedy collection plates and make people "Keep coming back for the feel good message", and lying politicians that are the same type of scum as the preachers ! It's time we all grow up and accept strict responsibility for our actions.
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
You have confused two separate incidents with two different places I worked which happened at least 3 years apart. When these IRS thugs get backed into a corner by presenting the facts and the law, they generally disappear. It's that simple. It does not always work that way when they get the levy ball rolling, but the way SAPF works, if you stay on point and are timely, you have the possibility of beating them at some point. Nothing is assured, of course, because the system is so totally corrupt, especially the tax courts.
"It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep the rest in order; and those who have once got an ascendency and possessed themselves of all the resources of the nation, their revenues and offices, have immense means for retaining their advantages." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1798
Some things never change. When Jesus was trying to explain love he used the best analogy available to himself and his followers by pointing out that love included loving your enemies, because even the publicans (scum of the earth tax collectors) love those that love them.
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
You may not have "said" that, but you KNOW good and well that your tax dollars are going towards that!!! NOW, be honest.... If you weren't afraid of going to jail, YOU WOULDN'T PAY INCOME TAXES!!!! Well, guess what. When it comes time to face the Creator, you get to tell HIM that you helped support "heinous acts" because man's law dictated it, and you were afraid of man's law's consequences - jail.... Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. You have a choice to make, and choosing to "pay your taxes" so BigBro has the means of continuing these "heinous acts" (whether that's YOUR intentions or not) puts the blood on your hands too. And who you "vote" for is of no consequence either. In fact, the very act of voting is in itself choosing someone to "lead" you, and again a violation of the First Commandment. You already HAVE a leader. But of course you knew that.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Two that I need help with are the admonitions to subject ourselves to our "rulers," and the others are to resist evil - much has been written about both subjects, and I just cannot get what is God's will/law/wish in this matter. Taxes and otherwise. Thanks for any clarification for those of us in the peanut gallery. Cheers.
Only those with nothing to say would post a reply like that. Begone shill.
"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win." --Mahatma K. Gandhi
But I certainly do not give Kotmair a pass on what appears to be an incredibly dumb deal for anyone to pay into. My similar analysis of the SAPF was posted on May 16, 2005 here: http://216.133.76.156/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=5362&Disp=20#C20
I believe the IRS describes these folks as illegal tax protesters ... and I'm having difficulty figuring out why everyone wouldn't protest a little about an illegal Tax.
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
The first three letters are not all that reassuring...
And what evil they have committed with my lawfully paid taxes is on their head. When given a choice, I don't pay people to bomb children. This is passing the buck, (lol) Hardly: Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. it's your money and you send it to people that bomb kids. ... You vote with your money. The word worship is a compound word derived from "worth" (value) and "ship" (to transfer) or to transfer value. Jesus voluntarily paid the Temple tax, and out of the collected Temple taxes came the 30 pieces of silver used to bribe Judas to betray Jesus. So, by your application then, you would likewise have Jesus "voting with His money" to betray the Son of God. And Jesus commanded that taxes owed to Caesar be paid to Caesar, even though Caesar declared himself a god and the Roman army was spreading "peace" all over the known world. So, again by your application, you would now have Jesus telling everyone else to "vote with their money" in support of idol worship and Roman soldiers murdering kids. ... if you make Tax Deductible Donations ... you haven't tithed at all, you've simply offset your tax liability. You're going need some remedial math as well as remedial reading. I'll be able to at least say I didn't vote them and I obeyed the authorities over me as scripture commands. And I'll be able to say, I screwed up for awhile Lord, but once I understood the deal I told satan to take a flying fucking leap, no more money for murdering thugs. No, you don't understand. You previously were, and still are, very mistaken about the Biblical basis for paying taxes: Applying your "voting with one's money" argument (in my examples above) to Jesus, demonstrates the fallacy that sins of the rulers are conferred upon the taxpayer. Jesus neither sinned nor caused 'renderers to Caesar' to sin, though obviously in both cases the taxes were put to sinful purposes. Taxpayers are not accountable for their rulers' immoral use of lawfully required taxes. Further, even in your recent posts, you were incorrect in that Jesus did not "dispute the notion that EVERYTHING belonged to Caesar " as you argued here, nor did Jesus teach that Christians "shouldn't be obligated to a benefactor", nor that the "birthright of the children wasn't taxable" as you first argued and then repeated here and here. And your continuing misunderstanding stems in part from reading into the text what you want it to say, and in part from not knowing what else the Bible does teach about Christians being submitted to authority and paying civil taxes, as I explained to you here and here and here. The Bible is quite clear and specific on requiring your submission to authority and rendering civil taxes: Rom 13:1-2 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. (2) Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. Every person includes you, and your disobedience brings condemnation upon you. Rom 13:5-8 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. (6) For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. (7) Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. (8) Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. You are to render all taxes that are due. 1Pe 2:13-14 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, And no, you don't get to pretend zero taxes are due because you allegedly withdrew from income taxation. You are to submit to every human institution, not just the ones you like. Rom 12:19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." Rom 2:1-3 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. (2) And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. (3) But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? And finally, deciding for yourself that they are "murdering thugs" is neither your judgment to make nor your vengeance to take, especially when vengeance is indiscriminately applied (because not all of them are "murdering thugs" and not all tax dollars result in "murder") and places additional burden on others (because their taxes make up for yours, while you still benefit directly or indirectly from public facilities and services). So, however much you misunderstood before, you still misunderstand most of it. Every Christian is to be submitted to governing authority, to all human institutions, and render all taxes due. But whatever semantic games you're about to respond with, know that God will not be mocked; not by your arguments, and not by our rulers' misuse of our taxes. Maybe this debate has outlived its usefulness. As far as you and I are concerned, it has. Here's a final thought: Mat 12:36-37 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. (37) "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
To whatever extent they were lawfully due, yes I would, because: Rom 13:5-8 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. (6) For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. (7) Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. (8) Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. No, I won't, because: Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
I'm somewhat familiar with HALE v. HENKEL as well as MCALISTER v. HENKEL but as relates to trusts. I'll review them again in the context of your SS argument. Might you have (or point me to) anything more substantial on this "example" set by Hargis, as what you've posted is largely tax protester lore, found only on a few tax protestor websites, but not in the online law libs. That may or may not be significant. I don't know until I see it. I'd like to see exactly what the warrant was for and what the outcome was. As already noted in the IRS raid of Kotmair/SAPF in 1993, Kotmair claimed victory when in fact most of the assets siezed (some $44k) were kept for back taxes, so perhaps you understand my wanting the facts (or not).
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
A bunch of guys got together and wrote some manuscripts which said something about "Give to Ceasar what is his" and "Bend over and obey all human institutions because they are given authority by God," and "Be baptized or go to hell," "blood worshipping, etc." I have to sadly announce my public doubt at this time that I am one of them, if these are some of their "requirements." By the way, that would make the Minutemen and all infants Hellbound...LOL. Perhaps these are only SOME of the "problems" I've had with the Bible ever since I was a small boy, and why I've dealt with my doubts intermittently in my life. Way too many contradictions for my simple mind to accept and way too many words of men compared to the actual words of Christ. Jews were about TheLaw. Jesus was not. Jesus obeyed the laws of the time to prove he was Man [and yet God] and to show that we could..and should... overcome those limitations [and the results of disobeying them] after his death. The LAW died on the cross! I guess the "apostles" who wrote the above forgot that? Christianity is not about obeying "laws," especially unjust ones. It is a direct contradiction to grace. It is also a moral contradiction. It's obvious I'm arguing with myself here, in part. Sorry about my cynical mood today. Perhaps I will pray for guidance and assurance that I am not Hellbound for blasphemy and doubt on this Saturnalia.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act - - George Orwell R.I.P.
"They say Justice is blind and I agree ... so much so that she hasn't found her way into a courtroom since 1938" noone222 12-17-06
Maybe an overview 'big picture' would help? You may find the entire thread interesting, even if not persuasive for you personally.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
that's the way i see it. who commissioned the writing of these various bibles and for what personal and political agenda? men, that's who. i don't know who they were. none of us do. what it ultimately comes down to is faith--your personal faith as to whether or not these individuals were truly inspired by God. then let's not forgot the various translations over thousands of years and how people interpret each bible verse differently as evidenced by this thread. having said that, i still find the discussion interesting and appreciate the time given by everyone here.
Many non-believing archeologists and secular scholars in fact know that books of the Bible accurately record historical events. The Bible is one of, if not the, primary source of ancient historical records used and increasingly confirmed by historians and archeologists as factual. That's true. But then even God's Signature of Authenticity is verifiable in the prophecies, if one cares to look. No, you don't have to believe it, but you can't honestly argue it's a coin toss as to it's being truthful. There are only about 6 main translations in English, and as English changes, the translations get updated. But the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek have not changed. If you could read them, you wouldn't have any translation complaints. And that people choose to ignore what is plainly written in front of them, is not the fault of the writer. You wouldn't criticize the Constitution or the framers for my interpretations, rather you criticize me, as you should. Likewise, don't criticze the Bible because many people are as stubborn about spinning it as they are about spinning everything else. Everyone has an agenda - why not bypass them, read the Bible (any of the main English translations) for yourself, and get to know God's agenda directly from Him.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Rom 13:5-8 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. (6) For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. (7) Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. (8) Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 1Pe 2:13-14 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, Starwind, you betray this nation clear back to its Christian roots and the teachings of the Founders and the preachers of the Revolutionary and colonial period. Your brand of Judeo-Christianity is an affront to all right thinking Christian Americans. You WILL burn in Hell for your treason against your fellow citizens. But, of course, the sheeple volunteer to be plundered.
Now, if you can figure out exactly what that privelege might be, there could be a smidgen of hope for you. ;0)
#25. To: innieway, noone222, BTP Holdings, nolu_chan, *Bereans* (#24)
(Edited)
euergetes; from G2095 and the same as G2041; a doer of good, i.e. a benefactor: - benefactors (1).
#26. To: BTP Holdings (#23)
Wrong. The withholding agent is the taxpayer. I'm surprised you do not know this. Even if it is covered up by the way things are handled in every day affairs, it is still a fact.
The clown in the regional office only knew how to bully and bluff. So, I called him on it. I gave the boss more forms and a letter, at my expense, which he sent to this idiot agent. Funny thing is, they never heard from him again. He just plain disappeared.
#27. To: Starwind (#25)
[Your submission of Biblical Text]
#28. To: Starwind (#25)
Regarding paying the "tribute", here is Mat 17:27 complete and in context:
#29. To: noone222 (#27)
I'm sure you can see the difference in these translations.
I do indeed. I think the translation you have used is more casual
and at Luke 22:26 appears to simply recognize an existing situation (but it is not this way with you) rather than observing an "order" [But ye shall not be so;]
#30. To: noone222 (#28)
(Edited)
As I said, two different taxes in two different verses, and no where does Jesus teach that civil taxes were deemed voluntary. Strong's G4399 means: prophthano
rather Jesus 'anticipated' what Peter was going to say and Jesus spoke first before Peter so as to teach His point to Peter, and then they paid the temple tax
prof-than'-o
From G4253 and G5348; to get an earlier start of, that is, anticipate: - prevent. G1323
Whereas the "tribute" in verse 25 is a poll-tax, in Greek:
didrachmon
did'-rakh-mon
From G1364 and G1406; a double drachma (didrachm): - tribute. G2778
kensos
kane'-sos
Of Latin origin; properly an enrolment ("census"), that is, (by implication) a tax: - tribute. G1658
Incidently, the above differences demonstrate the more literal (accurate and precise) translation of the NASB versus the KJV.
eleutheros
el-yoo'-ther-os
Probably from the alternate of G2064; unrestrained (to go at pleasure), that is, (as a citizen) not a slave (whether freeborn or manumitted), or (generally) exempt (from obligation or liability): - free (man, woman), at liberty. I'm sorry, but the translation you're using appears to have been written by a tax collector when using terms like 2 drachma tax, Poll Tax and "exempt".
#31. To: Everyone here (#30)
a village is missing its idiot.
#32. To: Starwind (#29)
None of Jesus' words teach that His followers do not have "obligations" to those in authority. Rather submission to civil authority is what Jesus and the Apostles taught, repeatedly (NASB cites already provided above in post #25).
#33. To: Starwind (#30)
submission to civil authority is what Jesus and the Apostles taught, repeatedly
#34. To: noone222 (#32)
I am finding it difficult to be civil towards you because I think you epitomize hypocrisy and man's self-inflated wisdom, which is the foolishness that serves murderers and tyrants.
I had addressed the name calling, and admitted it wasn't necessary, but note that it hasn't been a one sided love fest. All parties should strive for a less argumentative dialogue ... even though at times it's difficult.
Your focus has at times been directed towards the stupidity of people that fight the system by using antiquated or rehashed arguments, ultimately going to jail.
Yet, while maintaining a tagline that suggests you're a follower of Jesus, you have yet to even mention the heinous acts of killing little kids orchestrated by the "authorities" you claim we should obey and FUND.
I recall Jesus saying most emphatically what should be done to those that would hurt "one" of these little ones.
When judgment day rolls around show God Title 26, I'm sure he'll be understanding. When you pay your tithes to Uncle Satan, just attach a note and say ... not to be used for bombs, tanks and guns, please.
#35. To: noone222 (#33)
Peter and the boys (Apostles) got arrested for preaching and thrown into prison. The were told by the "AUTHORITIES" to cut it out, and quit preaching. Peter told the authorities to shove it, he would have to obey God's Laws, not man's, and would continue preaching. Then the apostles were beaten and released.
I know. I pointed it out first. Jesus, Paul and Peter all make it plainly clear, repeatedly, that the followers of Jesus, Christians, are to voluntarily be subject under the civil authorities and to disobey those authorities is to disobey God. Only when there is a genuine conflict between God's law and civil law, are Christians are to uphold God's law even when the consequences are dire:
You really seem to have some kind of reading disorder.
#36. To: Starwind (#35)
Jesus, Paul and Peter all make it plainly clear, repeatedly, that the followers of Jesus, Christians, are to voluntarily be subject under the civil authorities and to disobey those authorities is to disobey God. Only when there is a genuine conflict between God's law and civil law, are Christians are to uphold God's law even when the consequences are dire:
#37. To: lodwick, Starwind, noone222, innieway, ALL (#31)
Most interesting thread - thanks, all.
#38. To: Starwind (#25)
You post rant after rant raging against the machine without once posting any proof of the legal basis that underlies your tax arguments you all claim to have researched so thoroughly (except for one SSA form)
There is a clear distinction in this particular case between an individual and a corporation, and that the latter has no right to refuse to submit its books and papers for an examination at the suit of the State. The individual may stand upon his constitutional rights as a citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no such duty to the State, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life and property. His rights are such as existed by the law of the land long antecedent to the organization of the State, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the constitution. Among his rights are a refusal to incriminate himself, and the immunity of himself and his property from arrest or seizure except under a warrant of the law. He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights.
Upon the other hand, the corporation is a creature of the State. It is presumed to be incorporated for the benefit of the public. It receives certain special privileges and franchises, and holds them subject to the laws of the State and the limitations of its charter. Its powers are limited by law. It can make no contract not authorized by its charter. Its rights to act as a corporation are only preserved to it so long as it obeys the laws of its charter." Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43 at 47 (1905).
Example:
In 1993 a gang of terrocrats from the IRS and Post Office raided the sovereign business (free-enterprise gold bank) of Anthony Hargis in Orange County, California. They seized records, files, computers, and money. Hargis indicated to them, essentially, that he was a state citizen (sovereign individual) and that they had no jurisdiction over him and his business. They backed down completely and returned everything they had seized. There are senior terrocrats who know that even in their own courts they would face a tough and very embarrassing ordeal, if confronted with a knowledgeable sovereign individual like Anthony Hargis.
1) The numbered citizen is a card-carrying and practicing member of socialism.
2) He has voluntarily waived his absolute right to:a) Personal Security
b) Personal Liberty
c) Personal Property
3) He can now qualify and expect to receive protection, security, old age benefits, minimum wages, food stamps, and welfare benefits from the government financed by the society at large.
4) He is now under public policy for the good of the whole and is allowed to keep only according to his needs after all his claims and deductions.
5) He is a "taxpayer" within the scope of the I.R. Code.
6) Some of his constitutional protection (Bill of Rights) no longer apply.
7) He has denounced his sovereign status of a "free person" and is administered through a regional district.
8) He is a taxpayer and a collector of his own tax, and can be labeled a tax cheater, a tax protester, and a tax evader if he does not file.
9) He subjects himself to the United States Congress and can be charged criminally for willful failure to file.
10) He has rejected the natural laws or common law, and he has exchanged his blessings of liberty for a mess of pottage. The organic laws of contract are now in force to compel him to abide by his hidden agreements, imposed by his participation in the Social Security system.
And yet you style yourselves 'Christian patriots' who advocate an "insurance-like" scheme which is legally indefensible and fiscally and actuarially unsound,
And to that end, I see ANYONE that's in agreement with the current situation to a point of allowing their fear to prevent them from joining a revolution as a traitor....
#39. To: Starwind (#35)
#40. To: Starwind (#34)
And what evil they have committed with my lawfully paid taxes is on their head. When given a choice, I don't pay people to bomb children.
#41. To: Starwind (#34)
(Edited)
But what provokes me on threads like this is when those same people deride me for not being as willfully stupid as they are.
#42. To: Starwind (#26)
They're just clowns that you can back down, right? They have no legal basis to keep your $5,000 right? Your employer has no legal basis to keep for himself (or withhold) your $5,000, right?
#43. To: BTP Holdings, Starwind, innieway, all voyeurs remaining unnamed (#42)
because the system is so totally corrupt, especially the tax courts.
#44. To: Starwind (#34)
I never said we should FUND heinous acts, but you already new that.
#45. To: All you smart people here (#44)
The Bible has many conflicting passages, imo.
a village is missing its idiot.
#46. To: Starwind (#25)
#47. To: Starwind (#11)
No, I don't have evidence of fraud and I didn't say I did. I was thinking of the fraudulent tax shelters when I wrote that.
#48. To: Starwind (#25)
But the incessant flawed cherry-picking and proof-texting is why tax protesters persistently fail to persuade courts or the citizenry at large.
#49. To: nolu_chan (#47)
SAPF
a village is missing its idiot.
#50. To: noone222 (#40)
(Edited)
#51. To: innieway (#44)
NOW, be honest.... If you weren't afraid of going to jail, YOU WOULDN'T PAY INCOME TAXES!!!!
Rom 13:1-2 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. (2) Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
Well, guess what. When it comes time to face the Creator, you get to tell HIM that you helped support "heinous acts" because man's law dictated it, and you were afraid of man's law's consequences - jail....
Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
#52. To: innieway (#38)
I had posted in a different thread Hale vs Henkel which has never been overturned, and is still in effect today:
In 1993 a gang of terrocrats from the IRS and Post Office raided the sovereign business (free-enterprise gold bank) of Anthony Hargis in Orange County, California.
#53. To: noone222, innieway, zipporah, lodwick, ferret mike, i'm going to hell (#48)
(Edited)
I believe the IRS describes these folks as illegal tax protesters ... and I'm having difficulty figuring out why everyone wouldn't protest a little about an illegal Tax.
IMO, Christians have been deceived either in Scripture or its interpretation and/or, perhaps, its only partial veracity? It's the only explanation for the contradictions. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty. Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
In a CorporoFascist capitalist society, there is no money in peace, freedom, or a healthy population, and therefore, no incentive to achieve these - - IndieTX
#54. To: Starwind (#50)
#55. To: IndieTX (#53)
Perhaps these are only SOME of the "problems" I've had with the Bible ever since I was a small boy, and why I've dealt with my doubts intermittently in my life. Way too many contradictions for my simple mind to accept and way too many words of men compared to the actual words of Christ.
#56. To: IndieTX (#53)
A bunch of guys got together and wrote some manuscripts which said something about "Give to Ceasar what is his" and "Bend over and obey all human institutions because they are given authority by God," and "Be baptized or go to hell," "blood worshipping, etc."
#57. To: christine (#56)
who commissioned the writing of these various bibles and for what personal and political agenda? men, that's who. i don't know who they were. none of us do.
what it ultimately comes down to is faith--your personal faith as to whether or not these individuals were truly inspired by God.
then let's not forgot the various translations over thousands of years and how people interpret each bible verse differently as evidenced by this thread.
#58. To: Starwind, noone222, innieway, IndieTX, christine. lodwick (#50)
(Edited)
The Bible is quite clear and specific on requiring your submission to authority and rendering civil taxes:
Rom 13:1-2 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. (2) Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
Every person includes you, and your disobedience brings condemnation upon you.
You are to render all taxes that are due.
And no, you don't get to pretend zero taxes are due because you allegedly withdrew from income taxation. You are to submit to every human institution, not just the ones you like.
Christian Duty Under Corrupt Government
by Ted R. Weiland
Ted Weiland is a former rodeo bull rider, current evangelist, and writer who has permitted us to reprint excerpts from his book, "Christian Duty Under Corrupt Government." This book offers an alternative analysis (primarily) of Romans 13:1-7 which is so strong that his work should be studied by anyone who seriously supports or rejects the Religious Right's political activism. [Note: Mr. Weiland prefers to use the Hebrew translation "Yhshua" rather than the name "Jesus" used by most Americans. He also uses the Tetragrammaton, "YHWH" (God's name in the Old Testament name; pronounced "Yahweh"), wherever he believes "it has been incorrectly replaced with the words 'the LORD' or 'GOD'."]
The first seven verses of the 13th chapter of the Apostle Paul's epistle to the Romans are often abused and misused by today's average clergyman. This has resulted in one of the most destructive doctrines that has come out of "Judeo- Christianity" (that segment of Christendom that is heavily influenced by the Talmudic religion of Judaism) 52; the false teaching of total submission to all government authority. This theological mistake has probably contributed more to the loss of Christian dominion than any other false doctrine. Judeo- Christianity relies on the following three passages for its Scriptural basis for this doctrinal error:
Titus 3:1-2: Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to do every good work, to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
1 Peter 2:13-15: Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him .... For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.
Romans 13:1-7: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation .... Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom;fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Much of Judeo-Christianity has interpreted these passages to mean that God sanctions all existing government authority and that we are therefore to submit completely to any authority that happens to rule over us. Further, they teach that resistance to civil authority is rebellion against God Himself (except in the rare instance when someone might be ordered by government to deny Yhshua the Christ) and that God will punish those who rebel.
In fact, the Bible does teach submission to government. However, it teaches a limited submission which is not rendered indiscriminately to any and all who rule. Support for this view can be found from a careful reevaluation of Romans 13:1-7 where we discover Scriptural justification for the type of authority to which Christians are and are not obliged to submit:
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers [governing authorities, New American Standard Version; NASV]. For there is no power [authority, NASV] but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. (Romans 13:1)
This verse is currently interpreted by most clergymen and government officials to mean: "God has established every civil or government authority, and thus Christians are bound to submit totally to whichever government God has placed over them at any given time."
Every authority?
It is remarkable how the teachings of the majority of modem preachers contrast with the views many of our predecessors held concerning submission to government authority. In 1603, speaking before Parliament, even King James I recognized that a ruler's authority has limits: "A king ceases to be a king, and degenerates into a tyrant, as soon as he leaves off to rule according to his laws."1
In 1643 Pastor Samuel Rutherford wrote Lex, Rex ( The Law and the Prince) in which he explained: "...God hath given no absolute and unlimited power to a king above the law [of God]... 2
"When the magistrate doth anything by violence, and without [outside of] law, in so far doing against his office, he is not a magistrate. Then, say I, that power by which he doth, is not of God. None doth, then, resist the ordinance of God who resist the king in tyrannous acts.3
"Therefore an unjust king, as unjust, is not that genuine ordinance of God .... So we may resist the injustice of the king, and not resist the king. If, then, any cast off the nature of a king, and become habitually a tyrant... he is not from God... If the office of a tyrant... be contrary to a king's office, it is not from God, and so neither is the power from God."4
The proper perspective on authority was also introduced by the English philosopher, John Locke: "Where-soever the authority ceases, the king ceases too, and becomes like other men who have no authority."5
Many of America's early preachers and founders concurred with Mr. Locke. In a message preached just thirty-six days prior to the signing of the Declaration of Independence, Pastor Samuel West emphatically proclaimed: "In order . . . that we may form a right judgment of the duty enjoined in our text [Titus 3:1, supra], I shall consider the nature and design of civil government, and shall show that the same principles which oblige us to submit to government do equally oblige us to resist tyranny; or that tyranny and magistracy are so opposed to each other that where the one begins the other ends."6
Pastor Samuel Cooke, preaching at Cambridge, Massachusetts, on May 30, 1770, declared: "Justice also requires of rulers, in their legislative capacity, that they attend to the operation of their own acts, and repeal whatever laws, upon an impartial review, they find to be inconsistent with the laws of God, the rights of men, and the general benefit to society. This the community hath a right to expect."7
In 1765, British jurist Sir William Blackstone put it similarly in his commentaries on English law: "No human laws are of any validity if contrary to [God's Law]."8
In 1860, John Wingate Thornton developed this thought further: "We may very safely assert these two things in general without undermining government: One is, that no civil rulers are to be obeyed when they enjoin things that are inconsistent with the commands of God. All such disobedience is lawful and glorious . . . All commands running counter to the declared will of [YHWH] the Supreme Legislator of heaven and earth are null and void, and therefore disobedience to them is a duty, not a crime."9
The wrong-headed teaching of many of today's clergy is at odds not only with our founding fathers, but more importantly, with Scripture itself. Consider the words of the Prophet Hosea: "Set the trumpet to thy mouth. He shall come as an eagle against the house of YHWH because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law . . . They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not. (Hosea 8:14)
In this passage, disobedient Israelites are described as those who "rebelled against [God's] law;' and "set up kings, but not by [God]." Are we to believe that the omniscient sovereign God actually did not know what these rebellious Israelites were up to? Of course not! Hosea is simply telling us that these rulers were set in positions of authority without God's favor.
No government can exist without God allowing it to do so. However, we must understand that there are two different types of government for two different types of people. A people who have submitted themselves to YHWH's Word are blessed with just and righteous rulers. But those who have willfully rebelled against YHWH's Word are visited with an oppressive government for the purpose of bringing them back into submission to God. Hosea 11:5 provides a graphic example: "... the Assyrian shall be his king, because they [Israel] refused to return [to YHWH]."
While this is true for the wicked, in Romans 13 Paul is addressing a body of believers who have submitted themselves to Yhshua as King, and is instructing them in the concepts of a Christian civil body politic. John Milton, in his book Defense of the People of England, commented on Paul's intent:
"It being very certain that the doctrine of the gospel is neither contrary to reason nor the law of nations, man is truly subject to the higher powers who obey the laws and the magistrates so far as they govern according to law. So that St. Paul does not only command the people, but princes themselves, to be in subjection; who are not above the laws, but bound by them . . . but whatever power enables a man, or whatsoever magistrate takes upon him, to act contrary to what St. Paul makes the duty of those that are in authority, neither is that power nor that magistrate ordained of God. And consequently to such a magistrate no subjection is commanded, nor is any due, nor are the people forbidden to resist such authority; for in so doing they do not resist the power nor the magistracy, as they are here excellently well described, but they resist a robber, a tyrant, an enemy."10
Theologian Adam Clarke expressed similar sentiments: "Nothing can justify the opposition of the subjects to the ruler but overt attempts on [the ruler's] part to change the constitution, or to rule contrary to law. When the ruler acts thus he dissolves the compact between him and his people; his authority is no longer binding . . . . This conduct justifies opposition to his government."11
Pastor West preached: "Unlimited submission and obedience is due to none but God alone . . . and to suppose that He has given to any particular set of men a power to require obedience to that which is unreasonable, cruel, and unjust is robbing the deity [YHWH] of His justice and goodness."12
In 1749 Pastor Jonathan Mayhew argued lucidly against unqualified compliance to civil authority:
"Children are commanded to obey their parents, and servants their masters, in as absolute and unlimited terms as subjects are here commanded to obey their civil rulers . . . . Thus, also wives are commanded to be obedient to their husbands . . . . In all these cases, submission is required in terms at least as absolute and universal as are ever used with respect to rulers and subjects. But who supposes that the apostle ever intended to teach that children, servants, and wives, should, in all cases whatever, obey their parents, masters, and husbands respectively, never making any opposition to their will, even although they should require them to break the commandments of God, or should causelessly make an attempt upon their lives? No one puts such a sense upon these expressions, however absolute and unlimited.
"Why, then, should it be supposed that the apostle designed to teach universal obedience, whether active or passive to the higher powers, merely because his precepts are delivered in absolute and unlimited terms? And if this be a good argument in one case, why is it not in others also? If it be said that resistance and disobedience to the higher powers is here said positively to be a sin, so also is the disobedience of children to parents, servants to masters, and wives to husbands, in other places of Scripture.
"But the question still remains, whether, in all these cases, there be not some exceptions. In the three latter it is allowed there are; and from hence it follows, that... the use of absolute expressions is no proof that obedience to civil rulers is in all cases a duty, or resistance in all cases is a sin."13
Pastor Rutherford joined in demonstrating the foolishness of arguing that Christians are to blindly submit to authority under all circumstances: "It is true, so long as kings remain kings, subjection is due to them because [they are] kings; but that is not the question. The question is, if subjection be due to them, when they use their power unlawfully and tyrannically. Whatever David did, though he was a king, he did it not as king; he deflowered not Bathsheba as king, and Bathsheba might with bodily resistance and violence lawfully have resisted king David . . . . "14
David was a minister of God, and was beloved of God, but was he never to be resisted, simply because he was king? Of course not!
Pastor Cooke pointed out the relationship between those in authority and the laws of God: "Rulers of every degree... are, equally with others, under the restraints of the divine [YHWH's] law. The Almighty has not divested Himself of his own absolute authority by permitting subordinate government among men . . . without true fear of God, justice will be found to be but an empty name."15
Further, if Christians are required to submit to every authority 52; to which authority would God require them to submit in the midst of a revolution? At such times there would be two competing authorities, and Christians who attempted to conform to the present-day Judeo-Christian interpretation of Romans 13 would find themselves in an impossible position. Common sense tells us there must be something wrong with such a doctrine.
The second clause of Romans 13:1 reads: "For there is no power [authority, NASV] but of God." The literal translation of the original Greek words is not "but" 52; it's "if not."16 If we replace the word "but," as found in the KJV, with the literal translation, this verse would read: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power if not of God . . . ."
In other words, any civil authority not set up and sanctioned by God and not enforcing His laws is not a legitimate authority, at least not over Christians who have submitted themselves to the Kingship of Yhshua. J.B. Rotherham arrived at the same conclusion in the Emphasized New Testament, when he translated verse 1: "for there is no authority save by God."
Even the Encyclopaedia Britannica reports under the heading "Messiah," that this was the understanding of the early Hebrews: "In the period of the Hebrew monarchy the thought that Yahweh is the divine king of Israel was associated with the conception that the human king reigned by right only if he reigns by commission or 'unction' from him [YHWH]."17
The latter part of Romans 13:1 reads: ". . . those [authorities] which exist are established by God." To put it another way: "Legitimate authorities are only those established by God." J.B. Phillips obviously understood this when he translated verse 1 in The New Testament in Modern English: "Everyone ought to obey civil authorities, for all legitimate authority is derived from God's authority."
Apparently our early American forefathers' interpretation of verse 1 was much more Scriptural than the one advanced in many churches today.
In his book, Mr. Weiland analyzes the other six verses (Romans 13:2-7), offers a Conclusion which includes the following excerpts:
We can be thankful that many of our early preachers and founding fathers were not encumbered by the false theology so widespread today. They properly understood the question of submission to government and preached and wrote extensively on the subject. Had they followed modern Judeo-Christian notions, the United States of America simply would not exist.
America's Christian forefathers and patriotic citizens were courageous and stood upon the Word of God. They knew they must not surrender to tyrants. In 1773 the following famous proclamation was heralded by the men of Marlborough, Connecticut: "Death is more eligible [at least for some] than slavery. A freeborn people are not required by the religion of Jesus Christ to submit to tyranny. . . . [We] implore the ruler above the skies, that He would bare His arm in defense of His church and people, and let Israel go."60 Preachers like West, Cooke, and Mayhew accurately taught early Americans what the Apostle Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write. Consequently, they felt no inhibition for resisting ungodly authority and establishing in its stead an American civil body politic that more closely resembled God's design. Pastor Mayhew answered all of his previous questions with the following ringing declaration:
"It is blasphemy to call tyrants and oppressors God's ministers. They are more properly 'The Messengers of Satan to buffet us.' No rulers are properly God's ministers, but such as are 'just, ruling in the fear of God.' When once magistrates act contrary to their office, and the end of their institution 52; when they rob and ruin the public, instead of being guardians of its peace and welfare 52; they immediately cease to be the ordinance and ministers of God, and no more deserve that glorious character than common pirates and highwaymen."61
"Thus, upon a careful review of the apostle's reasoning in this passage, it appears that [Paul's] arguments to enforce submission are of such a nature as to conelude only in favor of submission to such rulers as he himself describes; i.e., such as rule for the good of society, which is the only end of their institution. Common tyrants and public oppressors are not entitled to obedience from their subjects by virtue of anything here laid down by the inspired apostle."62
Christians can serve only one master. The consequence of Judeo- Christianity's ambivalence is clearly seen in the John 19:14-15 account of the trial and crucifixion of Yhshua: "and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar."
This is a far cry from the disposition of the first-century Hebrew zealots and the eighteenth-century Christian patriots. The watchword of the zealots was: "No God but Yahweh, no tax but to the Temple ...!"63 The rallying cry of America's early Christian patriots was: "No king but King Jesus;"64
If Paul and Peter had lived what modern preachers say they wrote i.e., 52; unconditional submission to King Nero's government 52; then Nero would have never have put them to death. Instead, Paul and Peter would have been lauded and honored as loyal citizens. Caesar put them to death because they preached and lived unconditional submission to King Yhshua and taught disobedience to all antichrist authority. Consider the following unmistakable proof of Acts 17:6-8: "And when they [the Thessalonian Jews] found them [Paul and Silas] not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down [effecting a change in government by what they were preaching] are come hither also... and these all do [act, NASV] contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Yhshua."
Was Yhshua another current king? Yes, definitely! Were these first-century disciples preaching only a future king? If so, the rulers of their day would not have troubled themselves about Him. Christians looked to Yhshua as a reigning King who alone deserved their allegiance. . . .
It is any wonder that the authorities were disturbed in the Apostle Paul's day? They and their system of government were being toppled by this "new" King and by what first-century Christendom was preaching and practicing. Whether modern Christendom understands it or not, the Thessalonian authorities understood that proclaiming Yhshua as Lord and King required unconditional submission only to YHWH and His laws.
Modem Judeo- Christianity calls resistance to tyranny sin against God; whereas true Christianity understands that such resistance is obedience to God. Christians who understand the Apostle Paul's intent in Romans 13 are today's point men. They, as the "salt of the earth" and the "light of the world," are once again "turning the world [order] upside down" for their Lord and King, Yhshua the Christ. May our banner forever be: Obedience To God Rather Than To Men!
[Editor's note: Wieland's fiery book ends with a more moderate "Epilogue" by Pastor James Bruggeman: ]
America has been enslaved economically if not (yet) militarily. The process of enslavement has been so gradual and so subtle that most Americans still have not recognized their bondage-captivity...
Recently, however, many more Americans are being awakened to the true state of affairs, namely their bondage .... But those who understand Romans 13 properly, along with understanding the whole counsel of God in relation to government, are confronted with a dilemma: At what point of government oppression is civil disobedience and/or resistance in order?
Since the possible scenarios are myriad, we cannot give any more than general guidelines. We must look to Scriptural examples. At what point did the Hebrew midwives practice civil disobedience? At what point did Daniel defy King Nebuchadnezzar? When did Daniel's three friends rebel against this same king? Upon reflection of these incidents, it becomes apparent that just because our present government may be increasingly oppressive, that does not give carte blanche to any and all citizens to refuse to obey whatever laws and regulations they choose.
To cite one case history from the Scriptures, we can be certain that many laws, rules, and regulations in Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon galled Daniel severely. For example, if Babylon required a license for one to drive a chariot, our guess is that Daniel had one. Remember, Daniel was not only "in the system," he was a very high government official in Babylon. His was an Old Testament example of "being in the world, but not of the world." Daniel recognized that his people's captivity was a God-sent chastisement. Yet, he drew the line when a "federal law" prohibited him from praying to his God. We would do well to study this and other such Biblical examples.
In summary, while there may be some who are called to fight the present, ungodly system via court challenges, common law, the Constitution, etc., we do not believe nor expect that everyone who comes to the proper understanding of Romans 13 must therefore revoke his driver's license, marriage license, Social Security number, insurance policies, etc., and "fight the system." Each person must by much' prayer, Scripture study, counsel from others, and study of current conditions, come to the conclusion for himself concerning what God is calling him to do at this critical time in history. "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Pastor Bruggeman's moderating Epilogue implies that even the Religious Right and Fundamentalist communities are reluctant to release the passions of faith into the body politic. The lessons of history 52; especially the first American Revolution 52; make it clear that an unbridled Christianity can be an awesome political force. Instead of calling for a revolution, author Weiland seems only to warn that if the principles of the Religious Right concerning issues like school prayer and abortion are not given enough political space to survive, another American revolution fueled by religion may in fact occur.
Footnotes:
1 King James I, quoted by John Wingate Thornton. The Pulpit of the American Revolution Political Sermons of the Period of 1776 (New York: Da Capo Press, 1970) p.74.
2 Pastor Samuel Rutherford, Lex, Rex, or The Law and the Prince (Originally printed in London for John Field, October 7, 1644) (Harrisonburg, VA: Sprinkle Publications, 1982) p. 101.
3 Rutherford, p.103.
4 Rutherford, p.117.
5 John Locke, quoted by Thornton, supra p.74.
6 Pastor Samuel West quoted by Thornton, supra p.270.
7 Pastor Samuel Cooke quoted by Thornton, supra p. 167.
8 Sir William Blackstone, Blackstone's Commentaries (Philadelphia: George W. Childs Publisher, 1870) Vol. l, p.41.
9 Thornton, supra p.86.
10 John Milton, quoted by Thornton, supra pp. 67- 68.
11 Adam Clarke, Commentary and Critical Notes (Nashville, New York: Abingdon Press, 1831 ) Vol. VI, p. 145.
12 Pastor Samuel West quoted by Thornton, supra p.283.
13 Pastor Jonathan Mayhew quoted by Thornton, supra pp.65-66.
14 Rutherford, p. 149.
15 Cooke, quoted by Thornton, p. 168.
16 Wesley J. Perschbacher, The New Analytical Greek Lexicon (Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 1990) p.119.
17 "Messiah," Encyclopaedia Britannica 11th Ed. (Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc., 1910-1911) Vol. 18, p.192.
60 The Men of Marlborough, Connecticut, quoted by George Bancroft, History of the United States (Boston: Little Brown and Co., 1854) Vol. VI, p.442.
61 Mayhew quoted by Thornton, supra, pp73-74.
62 Mayhew, quoted by Thornton, supra p.78.
63 Quoted by Abram Leon Sachar, A History of the Jews (Alfred A. Knopf, 1968) p.I 17.
64 Committees of Correspondence, quoted by Cushing Strout in The New Heavens and the New Earth (Harper & Row Publishers, 1974) p.59. l
More results for Christian Duty Under Corrupt Government
"It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep the rest in order; and those who have once got an ascendency and possessed themselves of all the resources of the nation, their revenues and offices, have immense means for retaining their advantages." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1798
#59. To: BTP Holdings (#58) (Edited)
Thank you for that article.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
In a CorporoFascist capitalist society, there is no money in peace, freedom, or a healthy population, and therefore, no incentive to achieve these - - IndieTX In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act - - George Orwell
#60. To: IndieTX (#59)
Freaks like Starwind are under the impression that we must obey our servants in government under all circumstances. Nothing, of course, could be further from the truth. They are to serve us, not the other way around. Did Jefferson ask permission of his slaves to do any thing? Nor should we ask permission of our slaves in government top do any thing. We owe them only the duty to obey what they are lawfully entitled to regulate, nothing more. And we have set out the rules for that in our Constitutions. They have strayed and need to be reined in, with rope and lead if need be.
Thank you for that article.
"It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep the rest in order; and those who have once got an ascendency and possessed themselves of all the resources of the nation, their revenues and offices, have immense means for retaining their advantages." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1798
#61. To: BTP Holdings (#60)
Bingo.
We owe them only the duty to obey what they are lawfully entitled to regulate, nothing more. And we have set out the rules for that in our Constitutions. They have strayed and need to be reined in, with rope and lead if need be.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
In a CorporoFascist capitalist society, there is no money in peace, freedom, or a healthy population, and therefore, no incentive to achieve these - - IndieTX In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act - - George Orwell
#62. To: Starwind (#51)
No, I won't, because: Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. Yes, you will. You have a choice. You can opt out of the system. You don't have to donate to the killing of children. You CHOOSE TO DO SO BECAUSE YOU WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY. YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT'S PROMISES AND BENEFITS. If you think for one second that Bush, or FDR, or Clinton, or Poppy Bush, or Nixon, or_______ is given to us by God, you're a total fool!!!! You can tell them by their works, remember??? The bottom line is the iniquity is on your hands too. Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This teaching from the Messiah doesn't seem to bode well for a lot of Paul quotin do-gooders. Think what you want to think about Scripture or taxes. I don't give a shit. PLEASE don't think I want to interfere with your happiness and success!!! All I can personally testify to is that I know people that have withdrawn from the system and no longer pay in, and haven't for many years. What do those people all have in common - aside from still being free and walking around just like you? So go back to studying. Good luck finding some good argument. I've tried telling you IF IT'S IN COURT, IT'S THERE BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ALL THEIR DUCKS IN A ROW - and you won't find a "winner". If it's REALLY RIGHT, it never went to court to start with... THOSE EXIST (but court records on them don't - like Hargis. That's why you can't find a court case on it online - it doesn't exist - it never went to court. They only take things to court they think they can win). I've tried to show you court rulings, given logical reasonable arguments backed by Scripture, shown flaws in the "tax protester" arguments, and given you a truthful solution. You choose to ignore it, or try to find flaw in it. I can't help you anymore than that. Like I said - I don't give a shit what you "believe", your "beliefs" don't make a rat's ass (nor mine). The TRUTH exists independently of anyone's beliefs, and someday we'll all know the TRUTH.
Well, guess what. When it comes time to face the Creator, you get to tell HIM that you helped support "heinous acts" because man's law dictated it, and you were afraid of man's law's consequences - jail....
(1)They haven't had to go to court at all.
(2)They live good lives - healthy, happy, and at peace with themselves because they can HONESTLY claim that their name isn't on a bullet or some sanction that killed an innocent Iraqi kid.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
#63. To: IndieTX (#53)
bump it, and amen.
Perhaps these are only SOME of the "problems" I've had with the Bible ever since I was a small boy, and why I've dealt with my doubts intermittently in my life. Way too many contradictions for my simple mind to accept and way too many words of men compared to the actual words of Christ.
a village is missing its idiot.
#64. To: innieway (#62)
My point exactly! We're supposed to bend over and obey evil leaders according to the Bible. Sorry. I won't be taking part.
If you think for one second that Bush, or FDR, or Clinton, or Poppy Bush, or Nixon, or_______ is given to us by God, you're a total fool!!!!
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
In a CorporoFascist capitalist society, there is no money in peace, freedom, or a healthy population, and therefore, no incentive to achieve these - - IndieTX In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act - - George Orwell
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